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View Full Version : Burnout 3 Interview: AWESOME !!!!



Emmanuel
11-30-2004, 10:43 AM
hi folks !

Gott say that NTE interview clearly knocked me off my socks.
Not only that they used LW for that game, they used LW for everything, even for setting up the levels.
So, despite all the stuff I heard from programmers in the past, not only is it doable, it is also VERY usable and the separation between Layout and modeler seems ideal.
I wish i would read more stuff like that, it clearly shows that LW is a perfect development tool for AAA-games.

jasonwestmas
12-01-2004, 12:02 AM
Umm, I left my pride back in my studio so I don't mind sounding stupid. Where is this fine interview?

Rory_L
12-01-2004, 01:53 AM
Here!

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/lake/1.html

Cheers,

R

BeeVee
12-01-2004, 07:31 AM
The bit about the separation of Modeler and Layout being a benefit came as a surprise to me as well. When it was first proposed to me it was a shock. That means, if integration is on the cards we really must keep to having separate formats for objects and scenes...

B

Lightwolf
12-01-2004, 07:59 AM
... That means, if integration is on the cards we really must keep to having separate formats for objects and scenes...

Actually, nobody _ever_ wanted an integrated file format from what I recall :)

Cheers,
Mike

Neuroup
12-02-2004, 10:24 AM
Hello!
I just readed this article.
I have one question :)
Who said that there is not possibility to make in 100% game on Lightwave. Many coders/programmers says that "of course lightwave is fantastic tool for modeling but for whole game we must use a 3d stuido max"
Pater Lake is showing that lightwave can be great tool for making in game a realtime animation and vfx animation.
When i was making a game Starmageddon we was using in 80% Lightwave i was thinking that we can use LW in 100% but coder said there is not such a possibility. Bull****.
Lightwave need only one thing for game dev. To make some special options on object. In every surface there is something like coments but this is not enough. Sometimes coder/programmer must make some special "action" for object or for group and object and inport this to his engine and then some problems begins and coder must be very good to go over about it.
One more thing. Now i'm in Siena on studies and until 16 december i will not see LW8. Is there possibility to open as a plugin new opengl/directx windows inside layout or modeler ???

Bye!!



Bye!

Lightwolf
12-02-2004, 10:34 AM
Is there possibility to open as a plugin new opengl/directx windows inside layout or modeler ???
Yes, you can include an openGL area to a LWPanel. But that has been possible for ages (at least LW 6.0).

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
12-02-2004, 11:44 AM
Hello!
Who said that there is not possibility to make in 100% game on Lightwave. Many coders/programmers says that "of course lightwave is fantastic tool for modeling but for whole game we must use a 3d stuido max"
Pater Lake is showing that lightwave can be great tool for making in game a realtime animation and vfx animation.
When i was making a game Starmageddon we was using in 80% Lightwave i was thinking that we can use LW in 100% but coder said there is not such a possibility. Bull****.


Hi Neuroup,

Using Lightwave from a programming perspective for games just depends upon what file formats you are using for when you export your LW scenes. My programming friend and I are using Direct X and are exporting using Deep Exploration. DE doesn't support IK but I'm still having fun animating using FK. The animations look really good, you may just have to play around with the weight maps a little to get the deformations right. Cars, characters aircraft, environments whatever. It's all possible with the right tools for under 2,000 and a couple of good computers. I don't think the programmers you know are very open minded. What do you think?

Neuroup
12-02-2004, 11:57 AM
I don't know why your friends is making anything with lwo. Lightwave objects format is very good for programmers and Lightwave scene format is also very good(maybe is better then lwo). When we was making game in LWS we was putting lot of "action"/bonus information-useful for game and it was great solution. When you watch oure new demo from addict Labs called Liquid Forms every thing was readed from Lw. Objects, Scenes and others stuff. In oure next version of oure engine also we will read , IK, Bones, Weightmaps and other stuff. I think that good coder can read everything from LWS and LWO.

One more thing. About this programmer what i write about him in the last post. I was working with him only on Starmageddon. Now i' m working with mutch better coder/programmers.

Bye!

Rory_L
12-02-2004, 10:19 PM
DE doesn't support IK but I'm still having fun animating using FK.
Clearly being able to export the IK info to the game would be ideal, but even if you can`t you can still use IK to make your FK motion can`t you! Motion Baker is a good workhorse for this workflow.

Cheers,

R

jasonwestmas
12-02-2004, 11:52 PM
Extremely useful information guys, you all are very helpful, I'll look into your suggestions! :)
Hope I didn't sound like a pug.

Huh, I didn't even know LW 7 had a motion baker. That's high end stuff. Obviously I'm not much of an LW animator yet. :D

Neuroup
12-03-2004, 04:41 AM
Hello!
I think that surface baker is great tool for game dev, also i think that Motion Baker sometimes is also very good tool for games. Motion Baker you can use sometimes in special situations becouse you can't bake everything. For example you are making space environment for game. In this environment you have some rocks and they have some physics do you want bake this ?? Lws will be verybig and it will take lot of memory in engine and i think better solution for this is making this under engine.
Other think is with surface baker. You can bake everything and it is the best tool for game dev. Also you can bake math textures and all lw shaders. i can prepear texture under Lw and bake it. I'm saving lot of memory for textures and i can bake some static shadows.

Bye!

jasonwestmas
12-03-2004, 11:06 AM
Hello!
I think that surface baker is great tool for game dev, also i think that Motion Baker sometimes is also very good tool for games. Motion Baker you can use sometimes in special situations becouse you can't bake everything. For example you are making space environment for game. In this environment you have some rocks and they have some physics do you want bake this ?? Lws will be verybig and it will take lot of memory in engine and i think better solution for this is making this under engine.
Other think is with surface baker. You can bake everything and it is the best tool for game dev. Also you can bake math textures and all lw shaders. i can prepear texture under Lw and bake it. I'm saving lot of memory for textures and i can bake some static shadows.

Bye!

Hi Again,

Have you found that after being motion baked a character requires a lot more memory in game than a character that has not, or just a little more memory?

Thanks

Neuroup
12-04-2004, 07:58 AM
Ok i will tell something like this.
You are making a game. Texture, objects, scenes, are taking lot of memory especialy texture are "eating" lot of it. And baking a motion of object is without any sense. Is better when programmer code a ik/fk bones and other stuff into a engine. Make some simple scene with one objects save it and after it bake all motion in this scene and look how bigger scene will be after it and this baked scene will take some memory and you can use this part of memory in uder way.
Baking a motion is without any sense i think.
Maybe i'm not expert i made one game and i'm making realtime animation under windows but i think the most import think is optimilization for better work.

Bye!

Rory_L
12-07-2004, 01:09 AM
Whoops! I forgot to mention FI`s Key Reducer:-

http://f23.aaa.livedoor.jp/~fisjunk/plugin/plugin.php?id=48&p=1&c=3&t=Layout&v=7#f

It`s superb for getting your curves back to hand-keyed density levels, with hardly any data distortion.

Cheers,

R

Neuroup
12-07-2004, 04:55 AM
Hello!

Whoops! I forgot to mention FI`s Key Reducer:-

http://f23.aaa.livedoor.jp/~fisjunk...&t=Layout&v=7#f

It`s superb for getting your curves back to hand-keyed density levels, with hardly any data distortion.

Cheers,

R

What is it ?? This is a comercial break or something ?? :)
How this plugin is connected with oure discussion.

Bye!

Rory_L
12-07-2004, 06:17 AM
>Clearly being able to export the IK info to the game would be ideal, but even if you can`t you can still use IK to make your FK motion can`t >you! Motion Baker is a good workhorse for this workflow.


>>this baked scene will take some memory and you can use this part of memory in uder way.
>>Baking a motion is without any sense i think.

Reducing baked keys reduces the scene size. That is the relevance to our conversation.

And I think that good free plugins should be promoted.

Neuroup
12-09-2004, 07:41 AM
Hello!
When first time i was chacking your page i saw lot of japanes symbols and i didn't see english description of your plugin. When i back to my home i will download this plugin and i will see what he can do :)

Thx for info about your plugin.

Rory_L
12-10-2004, 04:02 AM
Not my plugin! :)

If you`re having trouble with FI`s site, here`s the plugin zipped up for you. You should persevere with that site though: there are tons of useful plugins on it.

Cheers,

R

Dodgy
12-10-2004, 07:19 AM
Trust rory, he's using Lw over ay sony, and has no commercial interest in plugins. He only recommends them if they are useful :)

As for IK in games, you can get all the actual IK info out of LW, which channel it's on, the position of the goals etc, but with any package you'd have to implement your own Ik solution in the game, just use the settings from LW.

As for adding information to your engine, it's very simple to write Lscripts which store needed data in the LWS or have interfaces for setting up links etc. LW is perfectly capable of doing everything a game needs, I just think it's a bad perception on a programmer's part.

Neuroup
12-10-2004, 08:43 AM
Thank you Roly for zip file :)

Sometimes programmer is so lazy that he can't use 100% of lightwave. But this is one side of medal. Second side is that who is more important in company programmer or graphic artist 3d :)

I wonder how they make(bornout3 makers) a collision system in game in article. We can see some bones put into a model of cars and i would also like to know how physics engine is interpreting collision beetween objects who are in environment and object of car.

Bye!

Emmanuel
01-01-2005, 09:43 AM
There is something that makes me go "Hmmm..." about that article.
Criterion is the creator of the renderware engione, so why is the LW-support for the renderware engine non-existant while those guys seem to produce games made totally with LW ? :confused:

BeeVee
01-01-2005, 11:26 AM
Two different companies, although the same name. Criterion Development makes Renderware, Criterion Games makes... well... games :) (I may not have the details exactly right, but I'll ask Peter Lake for the full answer).

B

rebelr6
01-01-2005, 11:54 AM
My own experiences with Lightwave for game development have been positive so far. The biggest issue I've had to work around is how Lightwave implements its mesh deformation using bones. In some 3D packages, vertex weights are the sole influencing factor for deformation, so simply saving these out will enable a game to have skinning. When using Lightwave, I had to recreate the radius influencing equations that Lightwave uses and modify the weightmaps to take include them. I then saved out these modified weightmaps for my game to use. The point is, this took me an extra weeks work. Perhaps Lightwave could have an option to "bake" this bone radius influencing into it's weightmaps to save me coding it myself.

Regarding attaching custom properties to objects in Layout, this I found was pretty easy. In the SDK, you can assign user defined "tags" with "getTag" and "setTag" functions. I found this system was perfect and I am able to associate AI and other game properties with objects.

So, all in all, Lightwave is recommended, but could be even better!

Dodgy
01-01-2005, 05:44 PM
Don't your artists paint weightmaps in vertex paint and normalise the weightmaps? Then use 'Use weightmap only' for animating them.

rebelr6
01-04-2005, 08:38 PM
Don't your artists paint weightmaps in vertex paint and normalise the weightmaps? Then use 'Use weightmap only' for animating them.

I am also the artist! :) Good suggestion, but I would imagine it would be hard to duplicate the effect of a radius influence by manually painting weightmap values. I might not be able to create such a natural animation. On the other hand, I've not tried it so I may be wrong. Have you tried this yourself, and if so, what were the results like?

Dodgy
01-05-2005, 04:46 AM
You can use vertex paint to calculate weightmaps which use the same fall off as LW's normal bones, but then tweak the maps.

It also gives you the option of rotating/moving the bones so you can see the effect.

Works fine as far as I can tell, you just have to remember to hit 'Normalise Weightmaps' when you're done to make them all add up to 100%

rebelr6
01-06-2005, 11:04 AM
Oops! :o You're absolutely right. I don't know how I missed this. I can't tell you how embarrassed I am not knowing Lightwave did this, a case of RTFM if ever there was one. Oh well, the program I thought was good is now even even better than I imagined!