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cresshead
11-21-2004, 11:49 AM
re editied!!

this is about "another 3d app"......not lightwave.

i'd just like to say that even though i'm trying to learn another app currently [x]

[[ i teach 3d so i have to learn other apps for college...i already know 3dsmax, lightscape, lightwave, bryce,wings 3d, silo3d...now another! ]]


i'm finding it very hard going to justify the time with it as most things are making me giggle with laughter as to just where they are coming from with their logic and usabilities of the app concerned...after several attempts to follow first their 5 dvd's...then their tutorial book which i bought and now a 3rd party cdrom training
video i've come to the current conclusion that their nuts!...

it seems to me thay have made the most basic and common tools both too complicated and quite loathsome to use..
they lack any artistic side and excell on the programming side...i think it's meant to be used by people in white coats rather than artists.

no units other than generic...
you can't make anything in other than o,o,o....brilliant annoyance!
no left hand view!..how mad is that!?
weird transform tools..
poorly implemented background image tools [rotoscope]
confusing menus and pop up boxes
...weird lack of primatives...but nice full parametric human!...
could they not get some more basic models there as a start point!...maybe the "human" cost them too much!

all in all disapointed...

still on the up side the lightwave jonny gorden books arrived from amazon c.o.uk on friday so i'm back in lightwave n lovin it!

..the grass IS greener....over at newtek's H.Q it most surely is!!!

Johnnyx
11-21-2004, 12:36 PM
..the temptations given up by the competition is sometimes overwhelming.... I've lost count of how many times I have been a gnats ball hair from clicking on the 'order now' button on 'other' web sites.... but always good sense prevails.. Coming from Max and Maya, I have invested over a year in getting to know LW and its foibles... and in that time have had a pretty 'rock and roll' ride of it... The point is, by sticking with it, I am getting twice as much out of LW now, than I was 6 months ago... its a great app, the others are great apps too.... but it takes time to get your head around a full tool set... and once you have done that... its best to stick with it - just to get your moneys worth!

I started playing with gradients applied to particles last week.... now, how cool is that feature!

LW is great - and getting better soon apparently.... as long as animation tools keep getting refined... it gets my money!

PS - the best plug-in ever would be a refinement to Motion Mixer... which would allow keyframing layers on top of clips.... mmmmmmm :)

xtrm3d
11-21-2004, 12:57 PM
well is that another fanboy thread ?

i would like to give you some counter argument ,
i think that i am able to read between the ligne of your post and come to the deduction that the application you are learning , is the same that i use for modelling at work .. yes the one with 5 tutorial dvd , and the bad rotoscop ..:-)


ok , befor throwing any stone at me , or calling for the lw lunch mob,
let me make a point , lightwave is great ,, i loove lightwave and still use it for my own stuff , and i would continue from time to time to release some goodies for the comunity but ,. ..

the "other'' aplication is really nice too .,
could it be that your statement is made out of anger , cause you dont understand the workflow ? ( workflow that is differant from lw .. cause THAT is not lw )

dont get me wrong .. that is not a personal attack or something like that , i am just tired of seeing these kind of thread agian and again ,

funny cause , when i visit other application forum , i cannot remember having seen any kind of negative post about lightwave ,
but here i see a lot of lw vs xsi , lw vs maya , lw vs modo ... lw vs my grand mother or whatever ...

is lightwave a piece of softwre to make 3d picture and animation ?
or is lightwave a kind of religion , with his share of integrism ?

are we so .. afraide from the future of our beloved application that we need to repeat ourself .. like a mantra .. that we have the best tools in the world ?

so that we finish by persuade ourself about that ?


you know what ?
i like sushy , but i like pizza too .. and french frie are not bad too ..

got my point ?

Chris S. (Fez)
11-21-2004, 02:24 PM
I got a real bad thing for redheads but I wouldn't kick a blonde out of my bed.

I tried the trial too and I decided to stick with Lightwave8/Max 7. No regrets here. A coworker of mine was won over by the trial and went for it. He has no regrets.

Dodgy
11-21-2004, 04:32 PM
Each app has it's strengths and weeaknesses, but I think a lot of people's judgements are down to if it makes sense to them. Each app has it's own style, and it may jibe with yours or it may not. I've tried Maya (we use it at work), Max(we had this for about 6 months at work and a couple of guys use it), XSI, cinema 4d, Imagine(my first 3d package, awwwww), Real 3d, 3ds4 and a whole host of smaller packages, and while I've found things that I've admired in just about all of them, Lightwave just makes the MOST sense to me. Above all, I've not found a single package which has made me gasp in wonder and bow down before it. That's why I don't like it when some guy comes on here as starts saying 'Oh XXX is so much better', because it may be better in some respects, but in others LW will nail it hands down. I've seen lots of demos by people who are trying to sell apps, and they all make the app look good... Then you come to use it yourself, and find it can't do XXX, and the salesguy didn't show you you had to do such and such, or it does XXX in some bizarre way.

After all, this is a LW forum, so it should be that if someone wants to say something positive about LW go for it. I wouldn't go over to another package's forum and kick sand all over their package.

harlan
11-21-2004, 04:39 PM
well is that another fanboy thread ?

lw vs my grand mother or whatever ...



Dude, Lightwave could soooooooo kick yer grand mothers ***. ;)

hrgiger
11-21-2004, 04:43 PM
Here's some of the things people say that annoy me to no end:

"Did you see what {app of choice} just got? If Lightwave doesn't get this and get on the ball, Newtek is going to die a fiery death."

"{app of choice} is so much better because it's integrated. If Lightwave doens't integrate, Newtek is going to die a fiery death."

"Newtek doesn't talk to us. If they don't start talking to us, they're going to die a fiery death."

"{app of choice} was just used on {movie of choice}. Here are the reasons Lightwave couldn't have been used: {dumb as$ logic here}"

"Lightwave can't even do {insert feature here} because {insert a lot of bitching here about a feature that actually is in Lightwave, they just dont' bother to know how to use Lightwave or bother to RTFM}"

doug_wilkinson
11-21-2004, 11:14 PM
Here's some of the things people say that annoy me to no end:

"Did you see what {app of choice} just got? If Lightwave doesn't get this and get on the ball, Newtek is going to die a fiery death."

"{app of choice} is so much better because it's integrated. If Lightwave doens't integrate, Newtek is going to die a fiery death."

"Newtek doesn't talk to us. If they don't start talking to us, they're going to die a fiery death."

"{app of choice} was just used on {movie of choice}. Here are the reasons Lightwave couldn't have been used: {dumb as$ logic here}"

"Lightwave can't even do {insert feature here} because {insert a lot of bitching here about a feature that actually is in Lightwave, they just dont' bother to know how to use Lightwave or bother to RTFM}"

wow relax. its all just code, to help us all get carpel tunnel. Most likely, these posts are made to intice people like you to respond like this. "baiting" If you really feel this way, just ignore that crap.

good luck.

Hervé
11-21-2004, 11:46 PM
... at the end , Nothing beats our trusty Lightwave ! Nothing ! :D

sailor
11-22-2004, 12:58 AM
LW vs Mitra would be a nice combat....

i totally agree with ya Chris...well i just wanted to post somethin because im totally asleep and need some brain action...
i will later go to work and model in Maya wich i was supposed to hate as a good LW fanboy but hey now i have much more work opportunities here in Paris as a Maya and LW modeler than before...and i am everyday finidng new workflows and stuff in Maya that just makes me feel happy of having taken the time to learn it some things lacks in it and some others are just amazing (like no longer modeling in 4 views for instance or teh use of ngons ad nausea)...and now i am expected to learn some XSI at work too...as far as that little brain can perfomr well im ok with that...this said im amazed at how i can keep all those shortcuts in my head without too much mixing.

the more you know the more power to you....period

see ya

Hervé
11-22-2004, 01:12 AM
Ahhh the brave Sailor is wise.... hey where do U wnat to go today...? no more seriously, where do U work in Paris... at La maison...? ;) :)

colkai
11-22-2004, 03:20 AM
Here's some of the things people say that annoy me to no end:"
SNIPPETY ..SNIP..SNIP...

:D
Dead on hrgiger, dead on!
I just find it incredible that on a LW forum, posting good things about LW is almost seen as a crime and whilst it is wrong to defend the package, (ya fan boy you), it's great to defend other peoples software on the forum run by the makers of LW.

Now that is some seriously distorted sh*t perception.

Yeah - me fan boy too - me love LW. :p

RuiFeliciano
11-22-2004, 04:10 AM
Cresshead,

You really should not approach that other app with your trusty LW workflow in mind...and I hope that, at least for your students sake, that you preservere a bit more in your search for knowledge because that other app can indeed offer you a left hand view...

It's all code, some like it served with HVs and others like it served with Mental Ray...in the end you can take both...how's that for choices? :)

mattclary
11-22-2004, 05:18 AM
The beauty of LightWave is it's interface. I've tried the other app with a text interface and found it bulky, unwieldly, and unfriendly. Now, when I have said that in the past, some have accused me of not giving it enough time (I gave it several hours). When I started using LightWave, in less than an hour, I knew I had found a real treasure.

colkai
11-22-2004, 05:25 AM
That was one of the things that got me wen I started.
Without reading anything, I could build something straight away and texture it and save it, without actually having a clue really.

Ofcourse, when I did read the manuals, it helped a great deal, but that wasn't because the software was hard to learn, but because I came from Povray so thought everything had to be done with booleans! :p

cresshead
11-22-2004, 05:35 AM
well yeah you can get it to look from the left...i've just seen a method for doing that with the xyz buttons on a training video.. whilst in right hand view..but really this wee beasty is surposed to be cutting edge future of all things amazing for 3d...yet we have to use a makeshift method just to look from the left view!... :eek:

yeah we all know it's a great app...and really nowdays they all are...maya, cinema, 3dsmax 7 xsi and houdini...

and i will stick with it as i have to..for the college..but [don't ya just hate "buts"?]
......but..some things in the app are really poorly implemented and some are VERY basic things..i would forgive it if it were on version 1.0 and they were new to making 3d apps...but they made softimage 3d...10yrs plus ago so with version 4 they should really be "on the ball" by now...and yeah i dived in and made my first tryout model as i was getting fatigued with the training videos...almost dropped off a few times!...

the u.i could really benifit from tabs..the rh buttons don't bring up any menus and the mouse wheel has nr zero use...there's no quad menu like in 3ds max and n hotbox like maya..you seem to spend quite alot of time going thru window menus looking for a sub menu to select things like boolean..there's no shortcut for polygons but there is for raycast polygons [why?]

also the u.i only works [just] at 1280 x 1024 yet it wastes huge amounts of space for a giant arrow the size of about 150 pixels!...i stil think that v 5 shold be a huge re write on the u.i.

on the upside:the poly tools look okay and they work well but nothing amazing going on there..just copying most other apps with phantom point projection and edge loops etc

in comparison to 3ds max7 i'd still go for 3ds max though it's too expensive [max]
curently..i have several students looking at getting xsi just on price alone..so i'll have to point out some stuff to them and see if they still want to go that way or look at lightwave instead.

the import/export is quite limiting too..plus no units is so child like i can't believer that the users arn't screaming for them from version 1.0...

anyway...just glad i got lightwave as my main app...as i'd like to keep what hair i have left!

steve g

hrgiger
11-22-2004, 05:45 AM
wow relax. its all just code, to help us all get carpel tunnel. Most likely, these posts are made to intice people like you to respond like this. "baiting" If you really feel this way, just ignore that crap.

good luck.

That's ok really because posts like mine are somewhat baiting in themselves.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that most of the posts that I've seen like the ones I generalized, come from people who believe what they're saying. Because you see the same posts from them all the time and everytime Newtek announces something new/improved, those same people are there to complain about what they don't have.

Yog
11-22-2004, 05:51 AM
..plus no units is so child like i can't believer that the users arn't screaming for them from version 1.0...

steve g

Reminds me of an old Ron Thornton story. Apparently he used to drive the animators at Foundation Imaging nuts because he has always building his models at no particular scale, he'd just fire up LW and start modelling :D

cresshead
11-22-2004, 05:57 AM
[sarcasm on] :)

hey let's hope lightwave 9 has the following improvments!

1.make the u.i not resizable by dragging :confused:
2.make it minimum 1280 x 1024
3.make a huge select button that's about 200 pixels big
4.get rid of:back, left and bottom views.
5.get rid of poly sortcut key
6.ditch the tab panel..make it more like the start menu in windows [which i nerver use as it's too slow/rubbish] to find everything tool wise.
7.make the idea of cutomising the u.i really hard so that nr no one bothers to make a new u.i.
8.only sell lightwave 9 on windows...make mac users pay for a separate version.
9.only give 2 render nodes..ditch the 999 nodes or charge for them!...cool! :rolleyes:
10.make users make everything at 0,0,0 with default...
11.delete the box primative and replace with a cube primative...if they want a oblong..make them use scale to get it...
12.get rid of sharp edge....we want to manually make chamfered edges!... :eek:
13.make rotate modes a thing of the past..that's too easy..make it harder! :)


fun fun fun!

UnCommonGrafx
11-22-2004, 05:59 AM
A teacher without passion and without the foibles of commoners tends not to be a good teacher. The opinionated ones write the most books and have the most noteriety. Be opinionated, Steve.
Share the wealth of your knowledge and your opinion. Show them the critical thinking path to which you came to the strong opinion you hold. It is by Doing that a great teacher shares his/her knowledge. Share with them how all the apps do things, on a split screen; empirical knowledge goes a long way.

Please speak more as to your perceived lack in the program you speak; I'm finding it informative.

mattclary
11-22-2004, 06:17 AM
also the u.i only works [just] at 1280 x 1024 yet it wastes huge amounts of space for a giant arrow the size of about 150 pixels

AMEN! I had huge issues with all the wasted space. The UI felt like it had been drawn with crayons.

xtrm3d
11-22-2004, 09:49 AM
I just find it incredible that on a LW forum, posting good things about LW is almost seen as a crime and whilst it is wrong to defend the package, (ya fan boy you), it's great to defend other peoples software on the forum run by the makers of LW.

my point is not about praising lightwave ...
but about bringing other application down ... :rolleyes:

nemac4
11-22-2004, 10:39 AM
And what is with xsi's cardboard box!!? Lightwave's box is much better.

;)

11-22-2004, 11:46 AM
This thread is a joke. Seriously, how much time did you actually put into LEARNING the app before your LW fanboy mode kicked in and prevented you from proceding any further?

I'm not here to defend XSI or any other app. I own it, and use it, just like I own LW and use it both in a game studio and for personal use, along with others like max, and motion builder. But I will call you out on a lack of informed opinion any day. If you want to make laundry lists about other apps and what you don't like about them I could dump a list so big about what I find wrong with LW it would make your head spin. Doesn't mean I hate the program or refuse to learn anymore about it or worse, work without it.

That's the real issue here. No app is perfect. Your list of things you don't like is full of trivial little gripes that don't really have any adverse effect on using the app when it gets right down to it. Get a grip on reality. Seriously... this thread is so ridiculous.

The worst thing people like you do is send Newtek the message that LW is just fine as it is. Which explains a LOT about the way it is today. You'd do them a better service by actually learning the other app properly and coming away with an increased knowledge of how to make LW a better program, which you could then pass along to Newtek. All you're doing here is stroking your ego and anyone else's that feels inadequate about the "size of their 3d app" :rolleyes:

RuiFeliciano
11-22-2004, 11:54 AM
cresshead,

many of the "shortcomings" you're mentioning reveal that you're simply trying to work in that other app exactly the same way that you do in LW...that's a mistake. That other app has somethings way better than LW and also has somethings that I don't like (I also wished I could work in metric units, for example).
My point is that you're trashing that other app based on comments that reveal that you've not spent enough time with it and/or the workflow is so different that you either did not get it OR got it but didn't like it. In any way, saying that the grass is not greener simply because if you want to make an elongated box you first make a cube and then scale it (on the other hand I can increase that same cube's caracteristics and see them affect the hundreds of modifications I did after I created that same cube...whereas in LW you trash your work and start again..to name a single benefict)...or because that other app UI customizations are hard (??) (which is light years ahead of LWs) is neat picking a bit to put it nicely...I could make a thousand lines essay on how much better that other app's animation resources are compared to LW's for example...which I spend so much more time on than making elongated boxes...so I guess it's just about your priorities and having an *educated* knowledge about several applications making you a better professional.

Just as I find unethical bashing another app on Newtek's forum, I also find it unethical to enumerate why it's so much better at certain areas so I'd suggest that you post your doubts (because it's clear that you have doubts) in that other apps forums where we can openly debate certain "shortcomings".

It's not about what app is the best...it's about which app will allow me to acomplish this one task better with my current level of knowledge.

Lightwolf
11-22-2004, 12:13 PM
Ha, I'm finally jumping in ... :D

The worst thing people like you do is send Newtek the message that LW is just fine as it is. Which explains a LOT about the way it is today.
Bingo, bulls eye...
I might be a bit of an exception here, since I've hardly used any other 3D app in the past, what, 10 years or so. I still have tons of gripes with LW (hm, may be I should try the grass on the other side) ...integration being one of them, but not the only one.
No 3D app is just fine as it is, even with different user profiles in mind. And I'd like to see LW improve just as much as any other app I earn my living with. (On a positive note, it looks like we have some momentum on that front building up again ... good :) ).
Cheers,
Mike

colkai
11-22-2004, 01:30 PM
it's about which app will allow me to acomplish this one task better with my current level of knowledge.
So you're saying you judge what's best based on what you currently know and not what may be discovered by learning more / spending more time iwht the package using the package? and so...

My point is that you're trashing that other app based on comments that reveal that you've not spent enough time with it and/or the workflow is so different that you either did not get it OR got it but didn't like it.
Which is to say - at his current level of knowledge yes?


Just as I find unethical bashing another app on Newtek's forum
and yet .. it seems we have no problem bashing a Newtek app on the Newtek forum.



The worst thing people like you do is send Newtek the message that LW is just fine as it is. Which explains a LOT about the way it is today.
....
All you're doing here is stroking your ego and anyone else's that feels inadequate about the "size of their 3d app"


Maybe you didn't read the threads cleary before your XSI fanboy kicked in?
We are NOT saying LW is perfect, fer gawds sake, we all are fully aware it needs to be revamped and hey - ya know what?? it IS being revamped.

Why we have to be insulted and derided for..shock horrow .. defending LW anf Newtek is beyond me and I am pi**ed off with the whole XSI clan bouncing up and down saying how if we only used it more we'd fully realise how lacking LW is and how superior XSI is. After all not like YOU are stroking your ego is it?

Ya know what ... forget it ... it ain't worth it .. I'll stick with the lousy, crippled, work-around, outdated Lightwave and take the scorn I so obviously deserve.
I'm sure the pathetic, overdue updates will be met with contempt and rightly so.
I don't see how Cresshead could be so narrow minded .. of COURSE the grass is greener on the other side - how silly of him.

Outta here....

mattclary
11-22-2004, 01:32 PM
I've tried the other app with a text interface and found it bulky, unwieldly, and unfriendly. Now, when I have said that in the past, some have accused me of not giving it enough time (I gave it several hours). When I started using LightWave, in less than an hour, I knew I had found a real treasure.

I used tutorials in both instances. LightWave's interface was intuitive and easy to use for me, right from the beginning.

No one is bashing other apps, we are just discussing their shortcomings, and I think the points made are valid.

cresshead
11-22-2004, 01:41 PM
well your certainly right on some counts...
1. i am a new user to "***" so yeah i don't know it inside out.
2.it does have some really good things in it [that's why i bought it!]

but no matter how you slice/dice/dress up/ and fluff it up with oohss and rrr's
the facts still remain... :rolleyes:

this app [***] is touted as the latest greatest top of the line cuttting edge 3d program that others should look up to and dream that they were as good as...

so...EVEN though it's a nice program and quite cheap there are some huge holes in the ergonimics and day to day usability that you could comfortably drive a "harry potter bus" thru [tripple decker]....sideways!! :D

....and your bang on right with nothings perfect..i totally agree! :)

yet isn't it just slightly strange to find such a "leader" missing so many basic tools and workflows?...yeah it won't stop you from making a model..or even a nice model...but some stuff "not there" just made me burst into laughter..thinking geez they really put one over on me there!

and no i didn't apporach it from a "lightwave perspective"...i'm a max user first...bought 3dsmax back i 1999...i teach with 3ds max , silo, cinema 3d and lightwave not to mention bryce 3d and wings 3d so i've seen most software and i've also spent a little time with maya4.5 ple as well so i've seen most programs and spent time with all of them to one degree or another...so yeah i'm biased in my evaluation [who isn't]...but i can balance my thoghts on a 3d app from using many others and this is the first 3d app to make me laugh out loud at how weird that something is or is missing in the program that i'd just though would be "a given thing".

*** will no doubt become part of my workflow in time..and i'll get used to some of it's oddball ways,and your right lightwave has it's share too..i thought that some may want to share my findings with *** before they were pulled into the stare of the marketing hype surrounding it currently...it's not all gold and gloss...there's quite a bit of detitus and sludge in this new kid on the block.

steve g

11-22-2004, 01:44 PM
I don't need to stroke my ego, and I get paid enough that I don't feel a need to.


Maybe you didn't read the threads cleary before your XSI fanboy kicked in?
We are NOT saying LW is perfect, fer gawds sake, we all are fully aware it needs to be revamped and hey - ya know what?? it IS being revamped.

I read far more clearly than you it would seem and I know full well that it is being revamped because I'm contributing far more to that effort than you'll ever know.

How can I be an XSI fanboy when I've been using LW far longer, not to mention a buttload of other apps. Please do yourself a favour and keep it to yourself when you know nothing of what you speak. I have at least used both apps enough to have a better idea of where their strengths lie and I choose to use that information in a more constructive manner than using a biased 3d app measuring stick and taking sides. Can you say the same?


Why we have to be insulted and derided for..shock horrow .. defending LW anf Newtek is beyond me and I am pi**ed off with the whole XSI clan bouncing up and down saying how if we only used it more we'd fully realise how lacking LW is and how superior XSI is. After all not like YOU are stroking your ego is it?

Ya know what ... forget it ... it ain't worth it .. I'll stick with the lousy, crippled, work-around, outdated Lightwave and take the scorn I so obviously deserve.
I'm sure the pathetic, overdue updates will be met with contempt and rightly so.
I don't see how Cresshead could be so narrow minded .. of COURSE the grass is greener on the other side - how silly of him.

Outta here....

... pure drama. And I don't even need to buy a ticket for this show!

cresshead
11-22-2004, 02:06 PM
james, you obvously have spent much more time than myself in *** and have found some cool things in there that you really like but surely you too must at some time have had a few confused looks on your own face when you discovered no units other than "generic"..you can't make a basic shape oblong box with dimensions as you build it, no chamfered boxes presets...well i'm going over old ground so i'll stop there....

do you get where i'm coming from?

...i'm not saying *** is a waste of plastic [cdrom] but that i was quite honestly surprised at some of the things i found/didn't find in the app as i've started to learn it seeing as i believed that it was a total re write of softimage 3d and so did not need legacy fluff but could forge forward and do things better than any other app etc...and this is version 4.0 not version 1.0

*** has dne a great many good fx in films so it's up for the job no doubt there...my point is that by version 4.0 all the basic needs of a 3d app should be "done and dusted" and that from then on you refine it....seems that avid either has most users who only have one arm [no left hand!] :eek: ..and no bottom! ..they must stand at the pc somehow! :D

look take this for what it is...a humorus look at another 3d app and some funny findings...your not married to it so please don't get offended by my funny remarks on it ;)

take care

everybody else?...come on, chill people!. :D
...nobody died! :eek:

11-22-2004, 02:18 PM
Cress: I'm a max user too, first and foremost... been using it since before they even called it Max. =]

My whole point wasn't to insult or piss anyone off (that's just a natural byproduct of my post, which I fully expected). I just honestly feel these threads don't do any good. Not here, not on cgtalk, or anywhere. They only serve to fuel the fanboy fire - and I feel that hurts Newtek and all of us more than anything. They don't need all of us blowing hot air up their asses nor do they need us bashing them all the time either (neither of which I am guilty of here).

I don't post as a fanboy of any app whatsoever. I post first and foremost as someone who cares a LOT about the development of the software I use, including LW, XSI... or any other app. Anything I can do to help make LW better, I will do. I'd love nothing more than to only ever have to use one single app for everything. That's just not my reality at this point unfortunately.

As for the hype and the marketing... well that's just business as usual. Softimage, Newtek, Discreet, Alias... they are all guilty of that. The only thing you can really fault Softimage for when it comes to the marketing stuff though is undercutting their competition, which would include LW. Fanboy or not, you cannot ignore the fact that you get a metric buttload of powerful 3d tools for the current price of foundation. Sure a lot of users are feeling the pull to try it out at such a great price. No harm in that at all. Not for the user, nor for Newtek. Nobody is stealing anyone's userbase so no need to feel threatened. Any LW user that tries another app, as you should know yourself will only be a better LW user for the experience.

I won't argue about features or workflow or UI because both apps (or any others) suffer their fair share of quirks, shortcomings and strengths. I prefer to take that stuff right to the developers rather than air it in public, which tends to cause people to draw their lines in the sand, which also brings me back to my original point. =]

Cheers, and no hard feelings I hope, including you Colkai. =]

James

cresshead
11-22-2004, 02:35 PM
cool! :)

i'm trying to remember what jolted me to post this in the first place..it think it was the general attutude of some of my students looking for a 3d app to buy have currently...they hav't spent anytime in xsi so far but they "percieve" it as the app to get without knowing anything about it other than it's price and it's presence in the film fx of late.

it is a good app but like you say yourself it has it's own share of quirks etc..seeing as most of my students come from using mainly 3ds max they will be in for a bit of aneye opener tomorrow in class when we take a look at xsi for the first time...i'm not going to slam it [why should i?...i have it too!] but i won't shy away from some small issuse that they should see before making that leap toward a purchase...as they are still in a position to choose xsi, lightwave, silo and cinema in most of their budgets they should know that there's going to be some stuff missing from their ususal tool kit that they use with 3dsmax and with lightwave de...maybe it won't change their minds but it will give them a more informed view of the app before they either place a credit card down for it or look for lightwave or a second hand lightwave purchase for a similar price...or even another app such as maya or max commercial/edu.

we'll see what they have to say tomorrow! :)

Klowno
11-22-2004, 04:01 PM
re editied!!

...after several attempts to follow first their 5 dvd's...


Could have just typed XSI 4.0?

The grass is greener on the other side ;)

Xsi has been a dream to use for me, ok so I haven't learned much about texturing
in it yet, but modeling is great, great and great.

IMHO!

hrgiger
11-22-2004, 04:04 PM
The worst thing people like you do is send Newtek the message that LW is just fine as it is. Which explains a LOT about the way it is today. You'd do them a better service by actually learning the other app properly and coming away with an increased knowledge of how to make LW a better program, which you could then pass along to Newtek. All you're doing here is stroking your ego and anyone else's that feels inadequate about the "size of their 3d app" :rolleyes:

I like the argument that it is every Lightwave users responsibility to ***** on the forums about what is wrong with Lightwave as if the Newtek development would just take an extended vacation otherwise. In fact, I'm surprised Chuck has not piped in yet to remind people here that Lightwave development continues whether or not people complain about some features. Nobody is saying Lightwave is perfect and couldn't use improvement, but then, that's why we have a feature request forum.

And the statement that Lightwave in it's current state is a result of people telling Newtek that Lightwave is fine as it is, well, is just retarded.

RuiFeliciano
11-22-2004, 04:40 PM
Colkai,

Since you brought that issue up (although I've seen no one on this thread bashing Newtek at all so I don't know why you even mention it...)it is my opinion if there's a single online place to either bash and app or praise it that would be the manufacturer's forum where they can read and reply to any issues...it certainly is not bashing an app on another manufacturer's forum...

RuiFeliciano
11-22-2004, 05:05 PM
Cresshead,

It's my opinion that you're basing your judgement on the lack of what you call basic things that you'd take for granted since you were buying a top end app. First off, If I remember you from the XSI forums at CGTalk, you bought the Foundations version (please correct me if I'm wrong)...an application that retails for one third the price of LW, an app that is so well equiped as to supply chamfered box primitives...

I believe you're missing the XSI paradigm altogether big time...you mention that it has no left view but it does and I only have to click one button, I don't have to reach a popup like LW, you mention that it does not allow for the creation of elongated cubes yet I can tell you loads of beneficts from the why XSI creates the primitives at 0,0,0 and then you must scale it. The lack of a chamfered box in XSI?C'mon...I can easily chamfer any primitive it ships with using a couple clicks or any other I build or import due to the powerful modeling function I have at my disposal.

I'm repeating myself but I believe that you must make a bit more effort in order to understand XSI's way of working...what you're complaining are mostly the lacking of pre-fabricated stuff that we're used to get in LW...someone complains about that you can't break a bone than Newtek gives a button to break bones, then you can't move a bone's joint and they create another button for moving a joint, then another button for merging the bones back together and so on...a band aid collection is what LW has become for the past years...that's why we open certain popups only to find dozen upon dozen of entries stuffed in there...if the UI does not support another button then we'll stick it in a hidden popup...
XSI way of working is different...other that giving you a yellow brick button and a green brick button and a pink brick button, etc it just gives you a single brick and a bunch of colors...YOU paint your own bricks...XSI is about building blocks for you to connect together...not about finding where the button that makes what we want is located.

Given this that I' could go on and on but that I'd prefer that you took it to an XSI forum, I HATE that I cannot work in metric units, and I'd love to get HVs and the simplicity of certain things when dealing with LW's particles, etc. BUT guess what...for that I use LW

Ask not what the 3d app can do for you...ask what you can do with the 3d app once you now it well enough :)

Hope to chat with you more on XSI forum :)

cresshead
11-22-2004, 05:15 PM
not one to "bash" but instead offer an informed opinion based on viewing the first modeling dvd from the 5 dvd set of that particular app we're on about...

also i'm not here to "argue"..just state some findings..there's no other side to argue about anyway...all the other 3d apps have units, boxes etc so not having them is odd and out of character for a 3d app and to REALLY top it off load up the xsi halflife 3.5 experience as this DOES HAVE UNITS!!!!...go on look!....now thenhow mad is that!...version 3.0 exp has no units..commercial version doesn't on release 4.0 yet the free game version of xsi does!..........like i say bizzarre!

it just cracks me up! :D


re dvd:
the trainers seem quite capable artists but come across as equally "quite poor" tutorial trainers..they do not tell you all the moves they are making or why..they take ages to do simple things yet speed off into the distance when they decide to make a sample mdel helicpter..and the format that avid deemed ideal means that you cannot scrub back a few frames to try and "see" where they used what tools in the interface as you can only go back in "segments" so you'll need to re watch a whole 5-15 min segment to re see something you saw just 5 seconds ago but missed...i'm seriously thinking of taping the output of my pc screen on to vhs tape just so i can get some "worth" out of these dvd's....they deemed it ideal to wrap them in a flash player so there's no capablilty to scrub the timebar as there isn't one.........doh! :confused:

to answer the chap above...yeah it's okay..though i thought it would be so much better..maybe i got caught up in the hype of *** too much and instaed discovered that it's really just another 3d app and not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow some would have you believe if you listen to them...when i saw the demo from them at the cgi festival in leeds it came across very well...i'll battle on with it and no doubt write read stuff on cg talk too...i look forward to the day i finally "get it" and grow to like it as much as 3ds max and lightsnack 3d!....hey not that long ago i used to take the **** out of lw..when i was really into max bigtime..before i got lw7.0...then i finally "saw the light" and benifits of lw...so i'm hoping that *** will get it's turn soon! ;)




anyway...need to start my second bottle of red wine and continue with the character creation book volume one from jonny gorden...just made a start on morfi!..on page 47 right now! :)

later!

cresshead
11-22-2004, 05:42 PM
well just heard from one of my students who has xsi!....ooooh!....s'pose i shoud stop "stirring" eh?....okay...i'll calm down and go watch a B5 dvd!

keep smiling people! :)

theo
11-22-2004, 05:56 PM
well is that another fanboy thread ?


I literally cannot stand the level of control that people like to foist upon others who simply have a point to communicate no matter how many times it has been stated.

First thing out of these people's mouths when a thread like this pops up is to whine about their dislike of fanboyism. Oh geesh give it a break. Let the people who OWN the list control it. Not a bunch of wanna be control freaks.

I swear the internet is literally chock full of these people who have to control what they don't want to read, on forums, on mailing lists, on wikis- so much for freedom.

I say get your butt off the thread if you don't want to read "fanboy" posts.

The guy just wants to talk about his personal experience and this is a great place to do it as it is a FORUM.

Kurtis
11-22-2004, 06:39 PM
Regardless of the reasons this thread may or may not have been started, and regardless of the reasons that may or may not be behind some of the comments that have been made throughout it, I feel that this thread has gone far enough, if not too far, in both directions. Both sides have made their feelings abundantly clear, and the discussion has become less than what could be considered civil.

It is now closed.