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UEI
11-16-2004, 02:39 PM
If I wanted to make Detailed muscles guy, and still use the cell shader to go towards the Anime style, could I just use a custom texture to indent all the detailed lines of the muscles? Or could the cell shader get those? What if I used a custom texture for the anime face and colors. Would I be getting closer to the style, even if I did or didn't incorperate the cel shader?

toby
11-17-2004, 09:18 PM
If you are using the BESM shader there is something called 'Decal' in one of the tabs that will apply your texture maps along with the cel shading.

Celshader
11-17-2004, 09:25 PM
If I wanted to make Detailed muscles guy, and still use the cell shader to go towards the Anime style, could I just use a custom texture to indent all the detailed lines of the muscles? Or could the cell shader get those? What if I used a custom texture for the anime face and colors. Would I be getting closer to the style, even if I did or didn't incorperate the cel shader?

The Super Cel Shader just interprets the amount of light a given pixel receives on a surface. Anything that affects the surface's lighting will affect the Super Cel Shader.

Use a Diffuse texture map to "paint" shadows onto a character; use a bump map to "paint" muscle/tendon detail onto a character. Also consider using color texture maps to paint ink lines onto the surface.

I don't often use BESM or unReal, but I think BESM ignores bump/diffuse map information, though my memory could be playing tricks on me.

lasco
11-19-2004, 10:04 AM
but I think BESM ignores bump/diffuse map information, though my memory could be playing tricks on me.

here's for your memory ;)

Celshader
11-19-2004, 10:17 AM
Well, I don't remember the 7.5 version working with bump maps. Glad to see that it does.

toby
11-19-2004, 12:01 PM
Just curious Celshader, do you prefer SuperCelshader to the others, and when you paint shadows onto a character, is it for styling or to save resources for game characters?

Celshader
11-19-2004, 12:33 PM
Just curious Celshader, do you prefer SuperCelshader to the others, and when you paint shadows onto a character, is it for styling or to save resources for game characters?

I don't have a favorite at this point. I use Super Cel Shader 99.9% of the time only because it's the fastest of the three flexible celshaders to set up, to see if my model's working or not. SCS has its limitations, though -- I had to use unReal once because it was the only one of the three that could give me the look that I wanted for celshaded water (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/md/rosedrop.mov).

I don't paint fixed shadows onto my characters if I can help it, but I figure it's an option if you need it.

lasco
11-19-2004, 01:25 PM
what LW misses the more I find is a serious
edge shader for cartoon / non-realistic renderings.

The edge rendering of the Object properties is quite poor,
the settings to determinate wich edge should or should not
be rendered work rather bad.
On the other hand I don't understand why the edge rendering
option of the Surface Editor does not allow to also render
the polygones themselves, as well as it does not have the
Z-depth decreasing of thickness.

Celshader
11-19-2004, 02:01 PM
Me, I love LightWave Edges. They're so predictable (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/kara/about4.htm) that it's easy for me to model (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/) for them.

I haven't yet tried to go beyond clean, precise, Akira-style ink lines in my celshaded work, though. If I wanted to render out something that looked like the sketchy ink lines of The Triplets of Belleville, my life would get complicated darned quick.

exit6
11-19-2004, 02:40 PM
The edge rendering of the Object properties is quite poor,
the settings to determinate wich edge should or should not
be rendered work rather bad.

I'm a big fan of the edges. Once you get the hang of them, they're great. I usually set my surface smoothing angle to 22.5, then turn on silhouette and sharp creases and I'm good to go. My only gripe is that the edges don't respond to dissolve envelopes and just pop on or off. This causes me to do several passes of any animations with objects fading in or out.

Exception
11-20-2004, 10:31 AM
How do you guys work around the bugs in the Edge render options? I mean, Unshared edges and Sharp creases don;t work as they are supposed to... What do you use instead?

exit6
11-20-2004, 11:34 AM
Sharp creases is controlled by the surface's smoothing angle. You play with this and it works great. I basically give all my surfaces a smoothing angle of 22.5 and I'm set. But I do mostly mechanical stuff, so organics might be different. Unshared edges baffles me, but I use it on occasion. 90% of the time I use just silhouette and sharp creases. Lately all my work, literally, is set up like this, and the client loves it.

Celshader
11-20-2004, 12:27 PM
How do you guys work around the bugs in the Edge render options? I mean, Unshared edges and Sharp creases don;t work as they are supposed to... What do you use instead?


Oh, Unshared Edges work all right...but subD objects will throw you for a loop if you're not careful. Before a subD object is rendered in Layout, Layout first takes the time to merge all overlapping points. Former Unshared Edges can turn into mere shared edges, if this happens.

Unshared Edges happen when a polygon's edge belongs to only ONE polygon, and one polygon only. I used Unshared Edges to mark the bottom of this elf's skirt and the outermost rim of her sleeves. I also used Unshared Edges to handle the outermost edges of each tuft of Lore's hair (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/), which is made up of ribbons of geometry (http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/topology01.jpg).

---

To keep Layout from merging seams on a subpatch object that you don't want merged, create a junk endomorph in Modeler called "Junk." Grab the areas that you want to keep separate, and move them away from their brother points. If Layout or Modeler sees an endomorph that separates overlapping points, it will not merge the overlapping points. I have a "Junk" morph target on Lore's hair to keep overlapping edges from blending together.

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As exit6 already mentioned above, Sharp Creases are controlled by the surface's Smoothing Angle. The lower the Smoothing Angle of a surface, the more Sharp Creases you get. You can actually spot Sharp Creases in OpenGL -- if the edge doesn't look "smoothed" over in OpenGL, it will render as a Sharp Crease.

Sharp Creases also perform double-duty as Silhouette Edges on double-sided surfaces. Silhouette Edges will never appear on double-sided surfaces, because the "normal" of each polygon faces the camera at all times. On a double-sided surface, Sharp Edges don't just mark unsmoothed edges. Sharp Edges also mark the edges defining where the geometry turns away from the camera.

On Lore's double-sided hair, I used Sharp Edges for the ink lines that Unshared Edges couldn't cover -- the edges defining where the hair geometry turns away from the camera.

---

If any of you have access to a copy of 1001 Tips & Tricks (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556220901/), flip to the celshading section that I wrote. I cover this technical stuff in there, too...with illustrations. ;)

Exception
11-22-2004, 06:26 AM
That's helpfull. Newtek support could have told me that themselves when I filed bug reports. Its not in the manual, all this, and it should.
Thanks!

exit6
11-22-2004, 12:19 PM
If you think the manual is weak on this, try figuring out the wind effector without third party help. Or ScreamerNet on a Mac!