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Hervé
11-12-2004, 12:34 AM
Hello French LW'ers...

par hasard , j'ai vu l'autre jour un TV spot avec des gens qui se transfoment en petits cubes.. je ne sais pas de quel annonceur il s'agit... j'ai fuste pensé... cool challenge for LW.... worth a try...

So if you have any links...
Thanks

Panikos
11-12-2004, 12:49 AM
Bonjour mon ami Herve

Je ne suis pas Francais :(, mes j' aime France beaucoup :).
Je ne compraint pas parce que ma Francais est terrible :confused:
Bon chance

:D

Weetos
11-12-2004, 01:22 AM
Ah oui c'est une pub pour Bouygues Telecom, j'adore le concept graphique et la bande musicale... Par contre, pour ce qui est de reproduire cet effet dans lightwave.... ouch :eek: je n'en suis pas capable

Hervé
11-12-2004, 02:08 AM
Cool Cool, I found it.... a good challenge... you dot have to do it with a walking character... any 3D object is good I think...

I got pretty much the particles done. OK from vertices emission based on collision with a sphere slowly entering the object... for replacing with small cubes, I use FX_linker... but there is a new menu in the pop-up... copy from emitter... for the rotation menu... no clue here since there is no way to rotate the particles in emitter...

Next will be to make the cubes pick small chunks of the texture where they start... next make the object disappear as the cubes appear !

Hey Panikos , how are you mon ami... I was refering to a good commercial I've seen on TV... want to take the challenge... :D ;)

Here is the zip file... watch it and tell me how possible is that...?


look here..... worth it !

http://pubs.service.b1.site.voila.fr/BouygueTel_Votre_monde.zip

Hervé
11-12-2004, 02:09 AM
thanks wetos !! ;) :)

Weetos
11-12-2004, 02:43 AM
you're welcome Hervé :) Greetings from France to Luxembourg LWer's :D

Sounds like a good challenge indeed but I just have a rough idea of how to imitate that visual effect. I think that the 'morphing' can easily be reproduced thanks to dissolve, but what scares me is how to get the particles getting attracted

I'd love to have some good ole vfx geek's opinion there ;)

Hervé
11-12-2004, 02:51 AM
BTW I am by myself here... or at least I dont know of any other LW'er here... people have too much money here , so business is really fierce... why, because they can easely afford big name studios in Paris, London, L.A., .... etc... so no good here... :D

about the challenge... no in fact the ral hard part is the disappear of the object... coz you cannot morph the object into thousands of small cubes...

oh and the neat part is that cubes are picking the texture from the part they are suppose to start from....

No clue about the "copyfrom emitter".... in FX_Linker...? :)

Hervé
11-12-2004, 03:33 AM
1,2,3,4 :d

Weetos
11-12-2004, 06:18 AM
hey looks like you came up with something that works pretty good !!!

will you make an anim of it?

keep it up ;)

Hervé
11-12-2004, 06:35 AM
yes an anim....

for now I have only one problem... making the vase disappear with a weight map or so...

here is a render preview... I made the vase disappear in photoshop...

ok, there will be more cubes as well as more different sizes...

BTW does anybody knows how do U work out with size between emitter and fx_linker... when I check size, all clones are here but with 0 size... :rolleyes:

Weetos
11-12-2004, 06:37 AM
me again :)

just a thought... I remember there's a plugin that converts any object into lego bricks (I saw it on Flay I think), I wonder if it would be possible to tweak it so it can generate cubes instead of bricks... if it works then you can have you base object dissolving while you cube version appears and then start to disintegrate. I don't have time enough to try it at the mo but I'll give it a try this evening

Hervé
11-12-2004, 06:49 AM
yes I have this lego stuff.... worth a try... any plugins for an object dissolve...?

and with the nice F_prime... it's a breeze...

Weetos
11-12-2004, 07:10 AM
nice shot Hervé !

Concerning the object dissolve, I don't think you it would require any plugin as the built-in object dissolve feature usually works fine for this kind of effect (object props/ Render tab/ object dissolve). I don't know it works with Fprime though :confused:

Hervé
11-12-2004, 07:21 AM
yes it works with f prime, but it dissolves the object entirely, there is no T button... or is there a special technique...? :)

cgbloke2004
11-12-2004, 07:27 AM
Thats really nice.
I know of the advert you talk about - not because i've seen it [it was some advert/visual review magazine with dvd - called 'the reel' - the ad was shown on the dvd] and they carried an article on the advert, and i think, how it was done.
i believe they did it in 3DstudioMAX..


only thing i'll say is that of course not all solutions can be done solely in Lw - a visual effect like that is usually a team effort [as in lots of different programs to get the job done] - and the shots chosen would also help in making a job easier or harder to accomplish - so i reckon concentrate on the 'money' shots, and then if it becomes too difficult in certain areas, use a different method [ie. not in 3d perhaps] to achieve the desired result..
having said that i know you all know this anyway..so i'm just rambling again :)

Hervé
11-12-2004, 07:38 AM
for dissolving the object... idea

render the anim twice... one with the cubes AND the object and one just with the cubes... and the rest by hand... should not be to difficult for about 300 frames... just a bit tedious.... :)

yeah I know, a big team regarding who's the client... but I remember a lewis jeans commercial (the one with the race between a guy and a girl passing thru walls...) anyway, the studio that did it was contracted by a big agency... who sold the TV commercial very expensive to the client (normal), but where the story is amazing is that the small studio that did it has made a re-make for I think a spoof.... for 1/10 of the price .... :D so who knows....

Weetos
11-12-2004, 07:46 AM
Oops I forgot there's no Texture button for object dissolve :( The only thing that can be done is to set an envelope to it

maybe transparency could give the desired result... I don't know

Hervé
11-12-2004, 08:28 AM
the hardest part is to make the particles stop to emit... or emit once.... I mean one particle... is there a way to do it.... does not kill to asK.... :D

like there is an event to start emit particles, but nothing to stop emission of particles... :(

Hervé
11-12-2004, 10:06 AM
there is a check box called "size effect" in the FX_Linker.... anybody knows this one....? I made a gradient for the size in emitter.... but that does not reflect in FX_Linker... normal ? ... how to do it...? ;)

jeeez, my scene has now about 2500 objects.... gulp... :D :eek:

cgbloke2004
11-12-2004, 10:54 AM
you can control when the particles stop emitting by a combination of the amount of particles emitted and their lifetime.
i'm going off the top of my head but this is how i did something like this before.

the size effect does work - its a little buggy - ie. i can set it once, but if i fiddle with it again, it gets stuck and the only i can really progress is to restart lightwave..
i dont recall being able to assign an envelope to it.

perhaps do a morph - with it changing in size, then fxlink it - the size change information from the morph will work.
then after fxlinking move the keys for each or groups [if you have lots!] and move them to random positions but roughly where you need them.

an alternative might be to do a combination of particles and hardbody dynamics - the combination of the two could work very well..
hth

Hervé
11-12-2004, 11:05 AM
thanks a lot cgbloke !

I'll try that size trick with a morph ... fact is I dont need an enveloppe.... I based it (the size) in the emitter panel size... I've made a Gradient for the size with distance from an object (null) as input.... the further away a cube is, the bigger it becomes... they should strat with a size of 2mm, and then when they are 0,1m from the object, a size of 3 cm... all that random....


for the stop emitting option.... well particle starts with collision event... but i'd like to stop some vertices to emit as the collision sphere (event) goes through it ....

the lifetime option is no good here, because I want the particles to live all the time....

Thanks :) ;)

Any ideas for the dissolve....? :D

Dodgy
11-12-2004, 12:18 PM
How about a clip map for making the vase disappear?

Hervé
11-12-2004, 12:26 PM
hummmm, a clip map sounds good.... let's try it... problem is that the border of the map is changing as the cubes are born.... but thanks Dodgy... worth a try !

(maybe an animated clip map based on Alpha channel of the object....) :rolleyes:

Hervé
11-12-2004, 12:30 PM
last but not least.... as cubes (particles) are born from vertices of a textured object... is it possible that they pick the texture from the object area where they are emit..?

in the render U can see I faked it, but it kinda work... but... if a better idea is possible.... :confused:

Hervé
11-12-2004, 12:46 PM
also right now there is 2500 objetcs... ouch.... it is becoming un-managable very fast.... :D I might give a go using hard_fx... any idea.... :confused: :D :cool:

Dodgy
11-14-2004, 07:08 AM
You might want to try morphs, create morphs of each cube shrinking (using smooth scale), and a morph of them going up, a morph of them spreading etc, and use these with normal displacement set to morph, so you can use a texture to control where the morph is applied.

HardFX could work too :)

Hervé
11-14-2004, 07:21 AM
Thanks Dodgy... yes Hard FX could work.... but it is way to slow to compute about 200,000 polys... (coz the cubes are not totally squared, slight bevel)... + to control them in the manner of the film posted here (the pub commercial) is very complex with hard FX... (well maybe because of the number of cubes - about 3000 cubes...)

no really the best bet for this are particles.... to bad the size T button does not work in Fact.... I've just tried.... any inputs dont give what it is suppose to do... like based on Distance.... nope.... whatever it does not work.... the -+ does work... but this is more for randomize... ****, this should not be complicated... I just need to outpout particles with 0 size at the start... and growing progressive as they are further away fro their emitter.... I know it is a bug... has to be....

BTW, I dont undersstand why so many morphs... one should be enough....

small <> big.... where do u do the morph spreading...? no idea.... are U still using particles replaced by a cube or something else... I just dont get it..

Hello NT are U aware there is a bug in the T button of the Size particles.... ?

Too bad , because just of that annoyance , I am stuck now.....

Hervé
11-14-2004, 07:28 AM
see, here I based it on distance.... particles should start small... then grow up as they leave the emitter..... :mad:

Hervé
11-14-2004, 09:14 AM
I've tried with the morph displacement, but it just does not work, nomatter what I do.... the size does not change over time using a gradient set to distance to object..... is it working on you side.... i am using 8,01 in case.... :cool:

Dodgy
11-14-2004, 05:36 PM
First of all, the particle emiiter T does work, just not in the way you expect. It determines how big the particles are by how far they are from your object WHEN THEY ARE CREATED and stay that size as they drift away.... This should be changed, or add a Particle age attribute to gradients in emitters (like you have in HV's).

But is this the kind of thing you're looking for?

Hervé
11-14-2004, 11:26 PM
well this is pretty much what I would need, but the cubes should begin to fly away as the small cubes appear, also cubes should go from very small to bigger as they travel away from the object....

So in fact I was doing right, I did not know that as soon a particle emits , it will keep its size.... this is not the way it should work... :(

Hervé
11-14-2004, 11:43 PM
well I've look around but I dont see any gradient with particle age in the emitter.... :confused:

faulknermano
11-23-2004, 09:30 PM
herve, about object dissolve: are you looking for a way to dissolve the pieces before they start moving and then make them appear WHEN they move?

Hervé
11-23-2004, 11:42 PM
No no ... I have no problem with that... the pop up menu pre-behavior does that well... but rather... right the frame they are born... they are small..., now the furthe they go from their emitter, they'll grow bigger... BUT... with some degree of randomness... :D ;)

faulknermano
11-24-2004, 12:26 AM
No no ... I have no problem with that... the pop up menu pre-behavior does that well... but rather... right the frame they are born... they are small..., now the furthe they go from their emitter, they'll grow bigger... BUT... with some degree of randomness... :D ;)

i see. i *think* it may be possible to accomplish this using lscript through the particle object agent. havent touched this object agent at all, and i'm starting to feel around for it.

one could write a motion lscript which has direct control over scale. but i'm not sure about how easy it's going to be putting a "randomness" factor into it.

or one could write a channel filter script, but it must be applied to all scale channels.

either way, if the "randomness" factor is too much trouble (e.g. inefficient) to be employed directly, then a separate noise filter (motion or channel filter )must be applied on top.

my current lscript problem is this: i cannot retrieve FX_Link info that tells me what "Particle Node" a particular item (which is going to be running the script to control its scale) is following. if you have 2000 cloned items it's going to be hell.

i could write it in such a way that may have to limit the flexibility overall. i could tell which particle an item is assigned to using its instance number (e.g. "Null (1)", "Null (2)"). that means the cloning process must be "perfect".

another way to write it will be to completely replace FX_Link altogether, by not only controlling scale, but position and rotation as well. but this will take much more time, and because it will be lscript, will be slower than FX_Link.

Hervé
11-24-2004, 02:14 AM
Fact is that I suugested that for LW 8.21, NT should definitly give the emitter the possibility to emit object.... as I said in another thread in feature requests... and I think it is important... as I also said... Imagine feathers from a chicken running, snow flakes... etc... those are bad candidates for FX_linker... it gives too many objects, LW rapidly becomes unusable beyond 2000 objects, manipulating the scene becomes hell (just opening the surface editor takes 5 min.), and if you want to recalculate your motions... well...

I vote for an Object emitter thing.... :D

What do you think...

faulknermano
11-24-2004, 06:57 AM
Fact is that I suugested that for LW 8.21, NT should definitly give the emitter the possibility to emit object...

LW rapidly becomes unusable beyond 2000 objects, manipulating the scene becomes hell (just opening the surface editor takes 5 min.), and if you want to recalculate your motions... well...

I vote for an Object emitter thing.... :D

What do you think...

i think that PFX is a great particle system, in spite of its "simplicity" compared to other systems. (i personally prefer lw's particle system to maya's due to this straightforwardness).

but you share my deep consternation with FX_Linker, or rather, the very principle of cloning objects (not instancing them) into particle data. you are right. heck, you prolly have a strong computer. 2000? i cant work with 1000 objects without going nuts at the response level (or rather, the lack thereof) of lw. if it reaches that point i automatically give up and look for other solutions.

whether or not we have an object emitter thing, for me, is a matter of an extra step to a workflow. to me, it does not make too much of a difference. that i'd like to see is a flexible, very procedural instancing capability.


anyway, about the script: i've got a thing brewing with those in power, so if this comes out, it'll come out full-fledged and you are guaranteed to know about it. if it doesnt turn out as expected, at least expect it to be here enclosed in CODE tags. :D

Hervé
11-24-2004, 08:15 AM
well, last time I did a try with 3000 objects... it run, but the deepest concern here is the crowded scene.. (you just cannot scroll objects for 3000...), opening surface editor... and the rendering... (without any raytrce, LW kinda rendered fast, but F-Prime totally freaked out ... just to open the window preview, it took 15 min...

I look froword for your script....

Thanks
@++ ;)