PDA

View Full Version : Goin' Mac. How is the experience?



Cutty
11-09-2004, 07:51 AM
I'm switching from PC to Mac. Is the Mac/LW experience the same as the PC/LW experience? With the exception of being able to run a few plugins, I shouldn't notice any difference right?

The only down side to switching to Mac I see is not being able to run DFX+ (which I am willing to sell for $700 with dongle if anyone is interested).

pat-lek
11-09-2004, 08:08 AM
Welcome on the Mac side... For Lightwave, on lightwave 8 , we have some problems with some graphic cards, but if you buy a powermac G5, with ati 9600 or 9800, there 's no problem.
And OS X is truly stable, and user friendly.

For the rest, i never use a PC...

Cutty
11-09-2004, 08:23 AM
I remember with 7.5 that mac users didn't seem to be as happy with LW as the PC users. I think Newtek has made some progress in this area and that (if it were the case) it is no longer the case.

Good to hear!

policarpo
11-09-2004, 09:12 AM
If you still have an option, I'd stick with the PC. The 3D experience and LW experience is so much better on the PC than it is on the Mac. I own both platforms and can honestly say this.

The Mac is only a nicer choice because of the OSX experience.

However, if you plan on doing modo, shake and FCP, well then, the Mac is solid.

turbo
11-09-2004, 01:33 PM
The Mac experience is fine with me. I also own both platforms and just plain cannot be bothered with Winblows.. I also prefer OSX and my Apple Cinema Display. I guess it depends on your system, your configuration and what exactly you do with LW. :cool:

Cutty
11-09-2004, 02:46 PM
This last windows service pack and all of its annoying little enhancements has to go! Another big plus for the Macs are the displays. Mac displays make you want to turn on the computer and work-especially helpful when you have to get it done.

And quiet! I can't believe how quiet the new G5s are. I looked into making my PC quiet but it was to much of a pain.

policarpo
11-09-2004, 06:50 PM
Buy what you can afford and use it to the max.

PC or Mac, it doesn't really matter as long as you are doing good work.

Macs are nice because of the UI experience and hardware...other than this, it's just a tool to get work done. I love working on my PowerBook as much as I like working on my Dual Xeon from BOXX.

I say **** the OS and embrace the creative spirit.

Creation is all that matters. You can do this on either platform and do it well.

But, if you can own and work on both...you benefit ten fold.

Cheers.

Darth Mole
11-10-2004, 07:53 AM
Don't listen to Policarpo - he talks way too much sense!! Throw caution to the wind and come over to the light side! Mac Users are classier, more smartly dressed, cleverer and have better sex than PC users - FACT*




* though not actually corroborated by any independent research body

policarpo
11-10-2004, 08:20 AM
Don't listen to Policarpo - he talks way too much sense!! Throw caution to the wind and come over to the light side! Mac Users are classier, more smartly dressed, cleverer and have better sex than PC users - FACT*




* though not actually corroborated by any independent research body

Hahahahahahahahah! How's that kool-aid treating you these days? ;)

calico
11-10-2004, 08:31 AM
lw is the only software that made me purchase a pc.
lw on pc is definitely faster and offers much more than on the mac.
still, i use mac 95% of my lw time.
frustration around pc & windows makes "my" lw productivity time still better on a mac.

Matt
11-10-2004, 10:23 AM
We switched from Mac to PC years ago because Mac was terrible for 3D, things have improved but IMO 3D is better on PC (especially for LightWave).

policarpo
11-10-2004, 11:00 AM
I don't understand comments like this? You make it sound like the PC is just cobbled together with duct tape and glue...and that it will fall apart at any second.

I have had a PC for over 6 years alongside my Macs, and neither platform has given me that much problem. I just turn the machines on, do my work, and turn them off. They perform exactly as intended...although...3D in general on the PC is a more pleasant experience than it is on the Mac.

Why do people have such "problems" with Windows? Do people not know how to properly setup a machine? Just wondering? :rolleyes:

calico
11-10-2004, 12:17 PM
policarpo, this is only my experience.
10 very pc skillful people [some of them use lw] tried to "setup" my pc [that was built by professionals] and help me but none of them succeeded.
it works and it doesn't. when there is no problem lw flies on it.
on the other hand, all my macs work.
they are slower with lw but everything runs smoothly.
again, 'my experience' with lightwave on pc and mac.

Cutty
11-10-2004, 02:14 PM
Thanks for all of the comments. I wanted to hear from others who live on the computer and to be sure that eating only spam sandwiches for the next month was worth it.

I'm hoping that Apple will give some news about the G5 laptop before X-mas. I'm only doing stills for print ads right now so I would sacrifice the speed of the dual to be able to sit on the couch with the old lady while I work and she watches "Life Time".

policarpo
11-10-2004, 05:33 PM
Thanks for all of the comments. I wanted to hear from others who live on the computer and to be sure that eating only spam sandwiches for the next month was worth it.

I'm hoping that Apple will give some news about the G5 laptop before X-mas. I'm only doing stills for print ads right now so I would sacrifice the speed of the dual to be able to sit on the couch with the old lady while I work and she watches "Life Time".

If you are doing Print Res work, I'd avoid a laptop, since renders could take several hours to render, and this would produce excessive heat on the laptop (not a good thing over the life of the laptop).

If you are going for a Mac, invest in the Dual G5 (it will be cheaper or about the same price as the new PowerBook).

Laptops are great for doing work on and traveling with and going to meetings with, but I wouldn't depend on them for Print Res renderings. Any chance you could get a cheap P4 3ghz Desktop to offload renders to?

Cheers.

monovich
11-10-2004, 05:50 PM
in my opinion, for 3d PC kills Mac. Of course, for most other work, mac kills PC. Are you building an all-in-one box or a 3d box? That would be the deciding factor for me.

toby
11-10-2004, 06:39 PM
Hi Poli ~

Believe me, I'm just as curious how you and Matt put up with Windows! I was immediately spoiled by Safari's pop-up blocking and stability, iTunes never skipping (even if I have 2 apps rendering in the background), never lift a finger to avoid viruses, etc., and I never switch it off. Sometimes the apps will be running for a month - sometimes 2. I tried that with all the PC's I've worked on and I get mysterious problems that prompt my co-workers to say "you haven't restarted it in 2 days?? Reboot!"

It seems to be the most common opinion, but I don't agree that the PC kills Mac in 3D, when comparing to the G5.


I don't understand comments like this? You make it sound like the PC is just cobbled together with duct tape and glue...and that it will fall apart at any second.

I have had a PC for over 6 years alongside my Macs, and neither platform has given me that much problem. I just turn the machines on, do my work, and turn them off. They perform exactly as intended...although...3D in general on the PC is a more pleasant experience than it is on the Mac.

Why do people have such "problems" with Windows? Do people not know how to properly setup a machine? Just wondering? :rolleyes:

policarpo
11-10-2004, 07:05 PM
I guess some people are cursed when it comes to using computers.

I dunno.

I rarely have issues with my Macs or my PC's.

I guess it's cause I don't really use them for things other than work.

Safari is a great browser, it just gets a little bloated on my PowerBook at times and crawls. I've recently started using FireFox on my PC cause it reminds me a lot of Safari.

As far as viruses...can't say I've ever really had one...I guess I am fairly cautious with how I interact with my computer and what I download.

Sorry you have had such a miserable experience on the PC...but to say that it sucks in comparison to the Mac is really irresponsible, because in the end, the experience one has on the computer is dependant on how they set it up and interact with it.

If you set it up right...it works like it is supposed to...regardless of platform.

But hey, maybe I've been lucky since I have BOXX machines as my PC machines.

Ho hum....remember...computers suck. Art does not. :cool:

JML
11-10-2004, 08:22 PM
I'm on policarpo side.

we have PCs and Mac at work, they both work fine.

when you don't like a platform, and your mind is preset, you will all time say
this platform sucks, blabla.
I think a lot of people who say windows crashes all the time and stuff like
mac are the best is that because they remember windows95 or windowsME...
or compare 500$ pc with macs.

I remember having problems with internetexplorer in win95 but my problems
pretty much disappeared in win98, and now winXP is just amazing in term
of stability. I don't remember the last time I restarted XP.

it also depends on the software you run, not just the OS.
programs which are poorly programmed will crash whatever it is on windows or mac.

I personnaly prefer PC-windows platform, but that my personal choice.

pc and macs are fine. just choose the OS you prefer and do some 3D !

toby
11-10-2004, 08:34 PM
It has something to do with what you're used to, what's important to you, and also I think that it's fortunate for people like you and Matt that these platform idiosynchrisies don't bother you - I think you're lucky

policarpo
11-10-2004, 08:44 PM
It's all relative to the size of your steeple. :cool:

JML
11-11-2004, 06:46 AM
from toby - "...you and Matt that these platform idiosynchrisies don't bother you - I think you're lucky"

I think you are unlucky.
if you don't know how to use something, it does not mean that the rest of the world can't either

then again, you say this because you are used to mac. and we all can go around for months saying that my platform is the best, blabla... or that my black socks are better than your blue socks,etc... (stupidiest thing I coud think of at the moment)

I work with macs too but I don't complain about it (anymore),
I guess both platform have good and bad stuff about them.

from my personal point of view, I admit I prefer windows and I did not see until now something so perfect about another OS that would make me want to change.
I don't say the other platforms are bad or are " idiosynchrisies " as you said,
it just doesn't fit my personal taste.

toby
11-11-2004, 02:16 PM
I don't see where I said that platform idiosychrisies don't exist on the Mac. That's why I used 'Platform' instead of 'PC'.

And just because I don't like the idea of having to stop and restart my car just get across town doesn't mean I can't drive, and I resent the foolish and arrogant implication that I need to be a technician or I 'don't know how to use a computer'.

The fact that it requires less technical savvy to operate a Mac than a PC is a credit to the Mac, not a drawback.

JML
11-11-2004, 03:24 PM
from toby - "also I think that it's fortunate for people like you and Matt that these platform idiosynchrisies don't bother you - I think you're lucky"
you were not mostly targeting pc there ?!

using your example,
it's not because you restart your car a lot that others restart theirs a lot.

I don't see what's so technical about pc... using a computer is technical, whatever OS you use.. it depends what kind of work you do with it

J Martin
11-11-2004, 04:16 PM
Has anyone run Virtual Windows on OS X? I'm thinking about purchasing AutoCAD sometime in the future and if I can avoid buying another computer... Actually, can you even do this, or do I need a PC?

JML
11-11-2004, 05:49 PM
I was actullay looking into that the other day for my company , this way everybody
doesn't have to go on the PCs to print stuff from autocad.. saves time,
by reading what's on virtualpc's web site, it seems that autocad should be able to work...

just found that :
http://www.macwindows.com/VPCautocad.html
(it's old,2003, it talks about VPC4... and VPC7 is out now..)

" We had several dozen responses to our request for reports of AutoCAD running on Virtual PC. We present many of them here. Noone reported an incompatibility--performance was the only concern. Readers report successfully using several versions of AutoCAD, including AutoCAD 2000LT, AutoCAD 2000i, and AutoCAD 2002. ... "

so I guess autocad may be fine, especially with the newer VPC7...

please, let me know (if you decide to try it) if it works..

Lottmedia
11-11-2004, 10:20 PM
I'm with policarpo, Don't blame the tools. Mac/PC... EH? Just do good work. I've got both platforms, they both work, period. Treat them right and they'll work right. I've seen the experience that PC userers tend to abuse their systems more (virus flippance and running any probram they find on the net...) but In my experience Mac users tend not to have that problem for the simple reason that there seem to be two flavors of mac users; the ones who know what they're doing and therefore don't have many problems and those to which it' a box of internet and e-mail that probably couldn't harm it without a hammer. There's just a lot of middle ground with PCs cause there are a lot more users. I've got a few of both and they're all fine. OSX is good, XP is good (though getting old)

And just to vent my one issue: mac people (and you know who you are) It's a computer, not a lifestyle, come on... I get enough of that from the Jeep people.

J-Rod

toma
11-12-2004, 02:33 AM
use both !

…if you are doing print res then use :

the PC for modeling and scene set up (open GL is way better on windows)
render with a mac (memory usage and multithread is better on the mac)

from my experience I would say that PC are faster but the lightwave limitation with ram is an issue for high res rendering of large scenes, on the other hand, macs are a bit slower but wont bother you with memory.

background : for the last 5 years have use macs+PC for lightwave, this year I go PCs+mac and I have to say that I'm impressed by the speed of the PCs, especially the "small" ones (single sempron with 1Gb and a 5700LE for about 800 €) but my dual xeon cost me the same than my dual G5 with more goodies on the mac side…

please understand that my experience is for print res work, if I were doing only animation, then I would probably say the PC rules…

conclusion : Do what you want !

ps. I don't say that it's impossible to do print res work on a PC, I have just notice that the time I spend optimising the scene, setting multiple pass etc in order to fit in memory my renderings on those PC ruins the advantage of faster rendering, I am still waiting fo my G5 because in the last month I have found myself doing renderings on old macs (even a laptop with one little Gb of ram) because my brand new dual xeon (with 4 Gb of ram) wasn't able to handle the rendering !

so the workflow is :
.on a mac : set up what you want, hit render, go to sleep you'll have time ;)
.on a PC : set up what you want, setup what your computer wants, hit render, take a nap…

thomas… :D

Ge4-ce
11-12-2004, 03:58 AM
It's all about the quality of PC products.. Policarpo, you have a BOXX system. They are very known for their quality on 3D front. And there are other systems around there wich are very good PC's.

I personally stick with Mac, and I am really enjoying my new Dual 2.0 G5. It really flies and is way, way way faster then my Powerbook 1Ghz (counted some 6.5 times in some cases)

As for some tips, some of wich were allready mentioned:

- Do not buy a powerbook if you want to do renderintensive stuff.
- Invest more in RAM then other gadgets
- Invest in a good Graphic card (ATI 9800, or nVidia 6800)

Some of my opinions:

- Mac OS X is way more stable and functional then windows
- Viruses are as good as no option on Mac
- internet and system setup is a cakewalk
- installing and de-installing software is a cakewalk
- actually everything is a cakewalk
- Hardware is of top-quality brands and quality
- Apple-peeps form a highly supportive and very motivated community and if you are
in it, you will never leave! (no, not some organisation wich will fly you to uranosatilopis one day and you have to leave your money behind)
- we actually talk to our machines.. :rolleyes: (but don't let that scare you away)

mgrusin
11-12-2004, 08:44 AM
Get a mac laptop, wireless networking, and set up a PC renderfarm. :D

-MG.

policarpo
11-12-2004, 10:31 AM
And just to vent my one issue: mac people (and you know who you are) It's a computer, not a lifestyle, come on... I get enough of that from the Jeep people.

J-Rod

Hey...I own a Liberty so I recent that! :p

Hahahaha.....just kidding.

toby
11-12-2004, 11:25 AM
And just to vent my one issue: mac people (and you know who you are) It's a computer, not a lifestyle, come on... I get enough of that from the Jeep people.

J-Rod

Apparently you believe the marketing more than we do!

And I'm sorry, you can't convince me that Windows works as well as OSX. Try running 2 copies of LW, AE, 3 other graphic apps, Mail, Web browser, iTunes and working 12-14 hours a day with at least one app rendering in the background, all for 2 months straight (without any degrade in performance) then get back to me.

mnbear
11-12-2004, 12:09 PM
I use Lightwave on Both the P.C. and MAC, the program is virtually identical so there is not much of a difference. Mac OSX runs circles around Windows XP and I find myself using the Mac much more often than I do the P.C.

This really doesnt have much to do with Lightwave, but I also own Next Limits RealFlow, and the Mac version is LITERALLY half as fast as the P.C. version, and I have no clue as to why that is. Lightwave runs a bit faster on my dual 2.5ghz mac than it does on my 3.2 ghz p.c., but it is barely noticeable. Once Newtek opens up lightwave for OSX's upcoming 64-bit support, Im sure the difference will be extremely noticeable.

JML
11-12-2004, 02:27 PM
And I'm sorry, you can't convince me that Windows works as well as OSX. Try running 2 copies of LW, AE, 3 other graphic apps, Mail, Web browser, iTunes and working 12-14 hours a day with at least one app rendering in the background, all for 2 months straight (without any degrade in performance) then get back to me.

I'm getting back to you. nothing so exceptional about that. but I don't use Itunes. and I sometimes play games while it renders.. mail programs, web browser doesn't take much system resources.

now , if you try that on a 500$ PC, it will be a different thing.

which version of windows and what kind of PC did you have issues with ?
PC is big . like you probably heard a lot, there are a lot of different hardware
which comes with a lot of different drivers and some are better than others.
getting a cheap PC is not a good idea.

the thing with PC is that you can customize them in anyway you want (hardware),
the problem is that if you or the company where you bought it from doesn't choose good components, it's not going to be as stable as if you or they chose better components.
(if the components are not so good, drivers may not be so good either and
then windows might not work nicely)

I now you hate windows, but they got a lot better than you think since windows 95-98-me
(depending on your hardware)

policarpo
11-12-2004, 03:39 PM
Fo what it's worth, I just finished a full day of working in DF, After Effects, Illustrator, Cinema 4D, LightWave, iTunes, Outlook, FireFox, Explorer, Photoshop and Trillian and haven't had to reboot at all. I also rendered to 10,000x10,000 in C4D while surfing the web (it finished in a couple of minutes).

So I guess the multi-threaded multi-tasking experience isn't exclusive to the OSX world regardless of what some people may preach as the gospel according to Harp.

OSX is good. WinXP is good. People...umm....have their beliefs (and we all know what kind of problems "beliefs" can get one into).
:p

JML
11-12-2004, 04:56 PM
thank you policarpo for your support :)

both OS are good

it's friday night,
see ya

pat-lek
11-12-2004, 05:32 PM
Both OS are good... But Mac OS X is better... :D


(To be continued...))

toby
11-12-2004, 06:37 PM
I've worked on PCs at 3 different places, all workstations, win2K or XP, all maintained by PC techs, and they have all stalled for various reasons, or programs failed to start, mysterious errors pop up then go away, click on something and NOTHING happens for like 30 seconds, pop ups that can't be turned off in every MS program I've seen, etc. etc. Basically they just constantly make me wait all the time or say "what the hell's going on?" And these are all dual 2.4ghz or better w/2gb ram or better, compared to my dual 450 w/ 1gb ram and no tech support.

Yes of course you can multi-task in Windows, you could in OS9 too, but not nearly as well as OSX. In Windows the system becomes stop-and-go, sometimes you have to wait a minute or 2 to switch applications, etc. In OSX I would completely forget about a render for hours while working in the other LW or AE - I'm not talking about surfing while rendering in the background, I mean doing graphics, for weeks at a time 12-14 hrs a day 7 days a week.

Like I tried to say before, it's great if none of this matters to you, you have more options, I'm stuck with fewer plug-ins and less software development, just don't expect me to agree that Windows works as well as OSX.

policarpo
11-12-2004, 08:00 PM
Ok.

Sorry you have had such miserable experiences...but please...don't make your direct experiences to be the norm, because they aren't the norm.

Both OS's are great at what they do, and OSX is an elegant UI experience and does provide some degree of advanced behavior, but it still misses the boat when it comes to doing what it should. It still craps out and pisses you off just like Windows. It's a freaking OS designed by humans, so it's fallible like all things in life.

If Apple were smart they would embrace the high end 3D world, but they don't. I talked with an nVidia Rep @ Siggraph, and he told me that they have tried to get Apple on board with using their Quadro line of cards, but they were absolutely not interested, so it makes me sad. Also, we ordered a Dual G5 2.5 in June, but it would not arrive until November, so we chose to go with BOXX instead (it left me with a bad feeling about Apple-why promise what you cannot deliver for 6 months- I guess their revenue model is the iPod now).

OSX is great for 2D and video apps, but until Modo goes full Model and Render on OSX, OSX is just a so so platform for 3D in the real world in my opinion. LW on the Mac is a second class citizen in my opinion...and believe me, I have pushed it on both platforms, so I can state this with complete objective certainty (and it should not be this way...other cross platform apps I have used have not been this way, and yes I have pushed these apps also).

Sure, you can do it and do it well, but when it comes to support and advanced features and leading edge 3D tech, OSX has always taken a second seat in the market.

I hope this changes, but if I were going to invest a few grand on a new machine, I would recommend a BOXX 3D workstation before recommending a Dual G5 desktop (I bought my PowerBook when I did, because I had a good PC to offload work to).

Anyhoo..this has been an interesting thread.

Very interesting because we get to see how people really think around here.

Art is about openess and understanding of form, function and emotion and progress...the minute we stop believing this, we become consumed by dogma...and I for one think this is seriously debilitating and counter to what it means to be a creator.

BTW: have a look here and then call me crazy: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=29662

Cheers. ;)

BrianW
11-12-2004, 08:40 PM
Wow! This is a good and constructive topic! Since we are all sharing our opinions on platforms and OS's, I thought I would share mine.
I am a System Adminstrator where I work. I take care of 37 PC's(some Dells and some Gateways running XP) 3 Dell powerEdge Servers(running Windows server 2000 and Windows Server 2003) 2 Apple Xservers(G5 running Panther Server) and 7 Macs(4 G4's and 3 G5's running Panther). In 3 to 5 months we will be dropping all Windows base PC's in favor of Mac and OS X. I have proven to my employer and employees that there are way less hassle with Macs than there are PCs. And I have proven that it is thousands of dollars cheaper in hardware, software, support, training, and time! They see me with my Macs and the problems I don't have that they do have. Now, I am not a Mac fanatic, but I do love my Macs and I have had a few hardware problems with one of the Macs we have at work, just one! Now, in the past six months I have to replace 23 power supplies in all of our Gateways PCs and in 2 of the Dells. I don't know what was wrong with the dells, but the Gateways where just piss porely designed. Don't get me going on all the problems we have with just Windows. A hand full of Dells we got just can't seem to keep user accounts. People come in the morning, power up the PC and try to login and Windows forgets thier Username and Password, and when I try to login under admin it has forgotten mine too. The PCs are always freezing, stalling and other things I have never seen a computure do. I keep a tight control on what gets loaded on these machines and what and where they go on the internet and all email traffic. I mean I have security so tight, you can't even view Flash content off of our network. All this in efforts to curb the problems that plague windows, only just a little.
I am glad some peolpe have it good when it comes to using Windows, but this is just not the norm from my experience with Windows. Well you might say that I am not setting my PCs up correctly. Is there something I am missing in this statement!? Hello!? Out of all my years of taking Microsoft Certification classes I just can't remember any of my insructors speak of setting up a PC incorrectly or correctly for that matter. I mean, sure you can configure you machine wrong in that it won't see the network or the server, but most PCs come already set up and ready to go, just install your software and get the machine on the network or the internet. It is basically that simple. Even in this default setup Windows has horrid problems. Windows Xp is by far the best Windows ever, but still fall way short of the goal. Oh, all of the PCs we have are Managed PCs. This means that the harware configurations on these machine are made up of proven hardware and drivers and still can't keep up with Mac hardware.
But wait, we are talking 3D here not word processing. That is what the Macs do where I work, my small 3D shop. There does seem to some OpenGL differences on both platforms, PCs being a little faster but not that much faster. I will put my Dual G5's with thier 6gigs of Ram up against any PC and walk away more than satisfied!!
All I can say is to each thier own. Everything around us that we take in on daily basis, no matter what that is, is all subjectively based on experience good or bad, and depending on that good or bad, our opinions will be based on that. Experience is the Great Teacher and there is one thing that experience has taught me, Windows can't touch OS X with a ten foot CAT5 cable(or pole)!
"And that is all I have to say about that"
BrianW

policarpo
11-13-2004, 12:01 AM
Rock on dude. Our IT guys deal with PC's and Macs every day at work, and they do not seem to have the problems you have. I guess they set everything up right. They do like the ease of use of OSX, but since we deal with international clients who are dependant on the Windows platform, we have to be savvy and able to accomodate them. I guess our IT guys are top notch when it comes to dealing with silly computers in our cross platform environment (though I suspect they wish they only had to maintain OSX machines).

Congrats on convincing your employers on the switch, just be sure that all the 3D artists install iTunes so you can share in the goodness of music @ the office.

Oh, and since you use LW there, be sure to pressure NT to use the Rendevous technology to implement Rendering across the network...or at least use the same tech that After Effects uses--xGrid technology (let's really talk about exploitive technology now!!)

In the mean time, I'll be working with my Mac and my PC machines and creating my work without problems!

Oh, and next time, please write in paragraph form if you want people to read everything you write. It was a little dense to sort through. ;)

Cheers.

BrianW
11-13-2004, 06:31 AM
"Our IT guys deal with PC's and Macs every day at work, and they do not seem to have the problems you have. I guess they set everything up right. I guess our IT guys are top notch when it comes to dealing with silly computers."

I guess I am just stupid when it comes to Windows!I guess I just do everything wrong according to you!

"Congrats on convincing your employers on the switch, just be sure that all the 3D artists install iTunes so you can share in the goodness of music @ the office."

I am the only 3D artist where I work, but I will be sure to let him know that he can install iTunes

"Oh, and since you use LW there, be sure to pressure NT to use the Rendevous technology to implement Rendering across the network...or at least use the same tech that After Effects uses--xGrid technology (let's really talk about exploitive technology now!!)"

I could careless if NT uses Rendevous for network rendering. I use ScreamerNet on a mixed platform with no problems. When all of those PCs are idle, I do you use them right along with my Macs!

"In the mean time, I'll be working with my Mac and my PC machines and creating my work without problems! "

And I will do the same on my Mac!

"Oh, and next time, please write in paragraph form if you want people to read everything you write. It was a little dense."

Fisrt I am stupid and can't setup a PC right, now I can't write right! Can't win for loosing when it comes to you!

Have fun with this thread, it useless! I will see ya'll later on down the road, got art to make!
BrianW

blabberlicious
11-13-2004, 07:43 AM
Just heard back from Scott at NT - that the (Broken) Bone Tools aren't going to be available to mac users until...

...well he couldn't actually tell me. Maybe ready for the next Point release (whenever that is), or perhaps not, as they are still 'in progress'.

So it's slipped into the NT 'whenever' vortex, along with all the other stuff.

I appreciate Scott getting back to me, but, these cool new tools (that I paid for), which are supposed to make the process of re appropriating and adjusting rigs less of a pain aren't available to Mac users - and that's after one update.

Very disappointing - particularly when the Guy who designed then is now head of NT Development - and he assured me we would see changes in their attitude to mac development.

Well, no change here, I'm sorry to say.

As for the maccy-clappers; If the tools YOU needed for whatever it is you do with LW blew YOUR scenes up, I think you'd probably be less inclined to make general statements about how great the mac experience was.

Frankly, I don't give a s*it about the interface. Although I would say, it would be nice if you could actually open a LW Object in Modeler & Layout by clicking on a .lwo file - you know, like every other app in the know universe can...

But that's obviously pushing our expectations in the realms of wild fantasy...

:-(

policarpo
11-13-2004, 12:10 PM
Wow Brian...why did you take anything I said personally? I was jesting in one part and being completely honest and constructive in the other part of the thread. Rendevous is a technology available on the Mac and PC platform (how else do you think iTunes works on the Mac and PC)? I think it would be a great solution for network rendering in a cross platform environment.

As far as the xGrid solution, I think it would make sense in an all Mac environment.

Sorry you see this thread as pointless, cause I think it's fairly informative.

There are always 2 sides to the coin in the game of life, however, I just like holding that coin to give myself a third option. :rolleyes:

Sorry to hear about the bones tools Blabberlicious. Let's hope we get a big fat xmas surprise in our download queue though. :D

Lottmedia
11-13-2004, 04:06 PM
That's what happen when you get into religious discussions...

gatz
11-13-2004, 05:12 PM
I guess I've been too charitable giving NT the benefit of the doubt. I've been dealing with irritating nonsensical crashing, poor graphics performance and dopey bugs (eps import anyone?) and I just keep hoping that the next set of drivers or app increment will make it right. Is Newtek turning into Hash?

Bugginess aside, what are other people experience with 3D apps performance on the Mac? I've heard great things about the responsiveness of Modo, but Modeler isn't the minefield Animator is. Modeler 8 isn't as brisk as 7.5 but it doesn't fold or corrupt like Animator. Does Maya suffer from the Mac curse? I only have experience with LW, formZ, Electric Image and Zbrush. FZ and EI definitely suffered from the migration to OSX, but I have no frame of reference with LW and ZB.

rg

policarpo
11-13-2004, 08:00 PM
Does Maya suffer from the Mac curse? I only have experience with LW, formZ, Electric Image and Zbrush. FZ and EI definitely suffered from the migration to OSX, but I have no frame of reference with LW and ZB.

rg


I only have experience with 3 apps of 3D on the OSX side of things, and in all honesty, they run very well and are very stable and feel pretty much like they do on the PC. I won't mention what they are, cause well...ya know...I've ruffled too many feathers so far, but Blabberlicious knows of what I speak. :cool:

Ade
11-14-2004, 04:57 AM
3D apps max on, i mean 3d apps on macs run excellent. I think the problem is see2 biasness which makes intel chips the leader in optimisations.

Modeller runs excellent on osx, BUT rendering is slower and much SMPT isnt there like it is on pcs'

tallscot
11-14-2004, 06:39 PM
This thread is really hilarious. Someone says that they are switching from Mac to PC and people immediately start fighting about which one is better and PC users say there are no problems with a Windows PC.

This person obviously thinks there is something wrong with Windows PCs, otherwise he/she wouldn't be switching.

So I think the fact that this person wants to switch makes the "there are no problems with Windows" argument moot.

So why argue about which platform is better? It's irrelevant to this thread. Ask the first poster why he/she wants to leave Windows PCs instead.

To answer the first post of this thread -- I have a dual 2.5 Ghz G5 with 4.5 gigs RAM (4 gigs of which are from Crucial) and an nVidia 6800 and my raytrace score is the fastest on on Chris' LW Benchmarks. The Hummer scene plays in OpenGL in real time. I'm not a LW expert yet, but it seems to run fine on this setup.

I use DVD Studio Pro, FCP, Motion, AE (fastest on the Mac), InDesign CS, Illustrator CS, Photoshop CS, Flash MX 2004...and the Mac experience is wonderful.

The best Web browser is on OS X:
http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniweb/gallery/

Read this for a great review of a Mac-only application that sums up the Mac experience realy well:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/delicious-library.ars

OS X Tiger is an amazing OS, years before Longhorn will ship, and OS X Tiger will have WinFS and Longhorn won't.

It's a great time to move to the Mac.

toby
11-15-2004, 04:37 PM
What's WinFS?

tallscot
11-15-2004, 04:51 PM
What's WinFS?

The new file system for Longhorn that uses a database to store metadata. It was a huge part of Longhorn's new features and Microsoft couldn't get it done in time so they decided to take it out of Longhorn so that they could get Longhorn out by 2006.

The idea is this -- you have a lot of files on your HD and they are all structured with a lot of folders so you can find what you need. What if you could use your file system (the Finder) like you use iTunes -- all files in one folder (if you want) and these files are tagged with metadata and key words. If you need a Photoshop file for project X, you bring it up without having to go to the Project X:Photoshop folder. You don't have to navigate hard drives anymore.

Tiger has this. Longhorn won't until 2008 or 2009, maybe later.

Ge4-ce
11-16-2004, 01:59 AM
Tiger has this. Longhorn won't until 2008 or 2009, maybe later.


YES! And the big joke is that this feature in the start was "THE NEW" feature.

Longhorn is basically like this:

If Microsoft would build a car called Longhorn, then it would be announced somewhere in 2000 (don't know for sure) to get on the shelves in 2004. This car has a totally new look, and can fly! In 2004 however, they cannot get the car ready, and are looking for an old car called XP to fill up the holes in the new car. Also, the Flying-engine called "WinFS" has been cancelled because then the car wouldn't be ready until 2008 or later. :rolleyes:

Lightwolf
11-16-2004, 02:34 AM
Wasn't BeOS based on a db file system?
Didn't the Amiga allow you to change program languages on the fly? (Now try changing the language of any new OS ... arghh....)

We're still ways of a "perfect" OS, and many things now touted as "NEW" have been there before.
Use whatever suits you best and get some work done ;)

Cheers,
Mike

JML
11-16-2004, 06:54 AM
you don't seem to use windows Ge4-ce , so why would
you care that longhorn is delayed?!

XP is great 'car' , did you even use it?
(great car depending on your hardware again)

you guys keep on complaining on PCs and windows like they are all the same,
and they are not !

we have 3 PCs here from dell and they run with nt2000 and XP and with totally different hardware.
2 of them are bad (cheap computer=bad components=bad drivers) the other is really good (was more expensive)
we also have 5 renderboxxes with NT are those ones are good too.

I got my personal computer 2 years ago, custom built, with some of the best component at the time (but pricy), and still now (after overclocking it) it still top of the line.
it works super great with everything (but again, it was more expensive than a everage dell)

I would not want to know what kind of hardware they put in a 500$ dell (including screen) and I would not want to work on one of those either.

there are thousands of thousands of hardware parts you can put in a PC, from the motherboard to a case fan, and they are all NOT created equal (some motherboards are good, some are bad, some memory is slow, some are fast,etc...)

BeeVee
11-16-2004, 07:28 AM
How I wish for the days of small apps that would fit on a floppy, computers that could be attached to TV screens, machines based on Motorola processors... sigh, ah nostalgia... :)

B
PS. It's amazing that we had to wait until 2004 for an OS on the PC or Mac that didn't need to be regularly rebooted when we had one back in 1990... :)

Chuck
11-16-2004, 07:55 AM
Just heard back from Scott at NT - that the (Broken) Bone Tools aren't going to be available to mac users until...

...well he couldn't actually tell me. Maybe ready for the next Point release (whenever that is), or perhaps not, as they are still 'in progress'.

So it's slipped into the NT 'whenever' vortex, along with all the other stuff.

Pleased rest assured that the Bone Tools issues have not slipped into any vortex; it is taking some time to be clear on on the source of some of the issues, but Peter, Scott and Steve are all devoting attention to getting the matter resolved. The goal is to have that corrected for the next point release. Scott is a cautious communicator so he doesn't like to make promises. It would not be correct to assume from that behavior that this issue or anything else that may have been discussed in such qualified terms is not being worked on.

Ge4-ce
11-16-2004, 08:34 AM
you don't seem to use windows Ge4-ce , so why would
you care that longhorn is delayed?!

XP is great 'car' , did you even use it?
(great car depending on your hardware again)

you guys keep on complaining on PCs and windows like they are all the same,
and they are not !

we have 3 PCs here from dell and they run with nt2000 and XP and with totally different hardware.
2 of them are bad (cheap computer=bad components=bad drivers) the other is really good (was more expensive)
we also have 5 renderboxxes with NT are those ones are good too.

I got my personal computer 2 years ago, custom built, with some of the best component at the time (but pricy), and still now (after overclocking it) it still top of the line.
it works super great with everything (but again, it was more expensive than a everage dell)



Well, I will quote myself here earlier in this thread:

Quote: "It's all about the quality of PC products.. Policarpo, you have a BOXX system. They are very known for their quality on 3D front. And there are other systems around there wich are very good PC's.


end quote.

And as a matter of fact, I do work with PC's I'v worked with dosens of PC's over years. Of wich there are only a few wich actually worked properly. And yes, those were also customised models and very expensive.

Well let me give you my opinion then.

I DO believe like I quoted, that there are good PC's out there... Macs however are not customised! They are set up by Apple and properly installed by Apple. They know what's in it, and write the drivers for it. I do not say all things go well 100% of the time. But I do find they work properly 99% of the time.

Can you agree with me that if I say:

-There are good PC's out there, but you have have a good knowledge and a good PC manufacturer to assamble this machine (like BOXX or like yourself) And to be realistic, in how many stores in the world would you buy a PC to do your work? (if you are not a real computer expert and depend on what the store tells you) ???

- I think it is highly fair to state that 80% of the PC business sells computers, NOT suited for 3D. This is why 80% of the computers bought there have problems with doing all kinds of stuff.

- If you buy a Powermac, you know for 99% sure that you bought something that is supposed to work for what you bought it. (again, it does not always!)

- If you buy a decent PC, you bleed as much money as buying a Mac

- a lot of people state that you can do the same with a cheap PC and therefor, Macs are expensive=> NOT

blabberlicious
11-16-2004, 08:59 AM
it would not be correct to assume from that behavior that this issue or anything else that may have been discussed in such qualified terms is not being worked on.

Who did? Not me.

Perhaps you could post NT's position to the people to the other thread, I'm sure they'll be please to hear from NT:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=24379


BTW I've sent you a PM with the correspondence I received from NT, on which I based my 'wild assumptions'.

:-(

JML
11-16-2004, 09:03 AM
I agree with most of the stuff you said Ge4-ce

3D needs a lot of power, and you can't do that on a cheap PC, or by buying a computer meant to use office related software

you get can really good PC when going to renderbox,alienware,hypersonic-pc,voodoopc,etc...
but it's going to be more expensive than a average dell and very close to a mac.

the best way is to build it yourself (but as you said you need some hardware knowledge)
(I went on a website to price a computer with good components, and after that I went on newegg.com to price each components... by building it yourself, you could
save 700$) (pretty good I think)

Chuck
11-16-2004, 09:15 AM
Who did? Not me.

You said:


So it's slipped into the NT 'whenever' vortex, along with all the other stuff.

You are putting words into my mouth that have nothing to do with what I actually said. I did not accuse you of making any "wild assumptions" - I just took the time to reassure you that your statement about this or anything else falling into a "whenever vortex" was not a correct assessment of the situation, and that the development team is working to get the situation resolved, just as they were telling you in the messages that you sent to me in your PM.

The problems were not as a simple as the team originally thought and the issues involved actually affect both platforms, and are not in fact exclusive to the Mac platform.

Ge4-ce
11-16-2004, 09:20 AM
I agree with most of the stuff you said Ge4-ce

3D needs a lot of power, and you can't do that on a cheap PC, or by buying a computer meant to use office related software

you get can really good PC when going to renderbox,alienware,hypersonic-pc,voodoopc,etc...
but it's going to be more expensive than a average dell and very close to a mac.

the best way is to build it yourself (but as you said you need some hardware knowledge)
(I went on a website to price a computer with good components, and after that I went on newegg.com to price each components... by building it yourself, you could
save 700$) (pretty good I think)

Hmm.. Yes.. offcourse, when you build stuff yourself, you can always save money. But in a business, that's not quite fair.

Or, you buy stuff fully operational, (BOXX, Alienware, .. the other brands you named)

Or you hire some computerscientist who keep put those parts together into a computer.

Or you do it all by yourself, (learning, buying parts and assambly) but have to count the time you are useless to make some 3D stuff. (and thus making money)

If you count it together, you will get the same price.

Roughly said, I set-up my Mac in 1 hour, software installation and everything. Most of the time waiting for the files to copy.

If you are a genious in computerscience, and you can order the parts, search the cheapest prices, assambly the CPU and install all the software in let me say a day (wich is fairly optimistic) and you save 700 bucks on the installation.

1 day I charge about 400 bucks a day (roughly) so you won 300 bucks here...

Then you have to count the learning curve "how to become a computer expert" to know what parts belong to eachother etc. etc.

So in the long run, You win. But I'm not a computer expert. And have no intention to go on a pricehunt for parts to save 700 bucks when I can win 400 and 1 hour of setup.

But everyone makes his/her own choices

Ge4-ce
11-16-2004, 09:41 AM
You said:



You are putting words into my mouth that have nothing to do with what I actually said. I did not accuse you of making any "wild assumptions" - I just took the time to reassure you that your statement about this or anything else falling into a "whenever vortex" was not a correct assessment of the situation, and that the development team is working to get the situation resolved, just as they were telling you in the messages that you sent to me in your PM.

The problems were not as a simple as the team originally thought and the issues involved actually affect both platforms, and are not in fact exclusive to the Mac platform.

I like where this is going..

hum hum...


FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDD FFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHTTT!!

:rolleyes: ;)

JML
11-16-2004, 09:43 AM
it's really not that hard, a lot of people do it...
and even if you don't know the components market well, you can go
to one of those webiste like boxxtech,hypersonic,etc... and write down
which parts they use...

but it's right , that doesn't work for business, which the best choice
is probably companies like boxtech,etc...

nobody wins, just different preferences...

tallscot
11-16-2004, 10:15 AM
Wasn't BeOS based on a db file system?
Didn't the Amiga allow you to change program languages on the fly? (Now try changing the language of any new OS ... arghh....)

We're still ways of a "perfect" OS, and many things now touted as "NEW" have been there before.
Use whatever suits you best and get some work done ;)

Cheers,
Mike

BeOS was based on an indexed file system. Tiger and WinFS are based on a relational database for the metadata of all your files. The Mac OS has had an indexed file system for years now too, but more limited. It's the reason searches in the Mac OS are many, many, many times faster than searches in Windows. The HSFS and HSFS+ file systems automatically index your file info when the file is written or copied (content within a file has to be manually indexed, but can be automatically scheduled). Tiger expands on that with expanded metadata features and a relational database with a plug-in architecture to make it easy for developers to plug their application file formats into it (NT could plug into it and you could sort your models based on polygon count, for example).

Here's an example -- I received an MP3 file from a friend through iChat. A few weeks later, I did a search in Tiger (beta) for my friend's name and in the grouped results, that MP3 file was listed. Why? Because I received it from my friend and Tiger put tags on the file that I received it from my friend. Ever get attachments via email and save them and forget where you saved them? Type the name of the person who sent you the file...

It's wonderful stuff.

What Tiger is going to do in possibly two months (if you believe the rumor that it's going to ship at MacWorld) is definitely new. The idea isn't new, but neither was a hard drive-based MP3 player when the iPod debuted. Apple is really good at taking existing ideas and then doing it better than anyone else. They have a passion for making their products easy to use and really well designed, from the CEO down.

The point is Microsoft makes billions in profit every quarter and they couldn't get WinFS in Longhorn out the door on time. It's really amazing. They actually pulled programmers off of Longhorn to get SP2 out the door.

Oh, and Apple's Copland project had a db file system back in the 90's. What year was that? 1995?

tallscot
11-16-2004, 10:22 AM
it's really not that hard, a lot of people do it...
and even if you don't know the components market well, you can go
to one of those webiste like boxxtech,hypersonic,etc... and write down
which parts they use...

but it's right , that doesn't work for business, which the best choice
is probably companies like boxtech,etc...

nobody wins, just different preferences...

I own PCs and Macs. I have extensive experience with PCs, for well over a decade.

Being able to build your own PC is a blessing and a curse. One reason PCs have a lot more incompatibilities and hardware issues is because there are a million different configurations. That's the reason you see high-end software only supporting specific "supported" PC configs.

The Mac hardware can have issues, but it's much, much, much more rare than on the PC. Just go to the Canon digital camera support pages for XP and then OS X and it hits you in the face, the difference in the experience between the two.

My problem is not with PC hardware, but it is with Windows. There are a lot more hassles and issues with Windows. You have to consider a lot more in Windows to keep a smooth running system, and even when you do everything perfectly, you can still get screwed. I don't have to consider anything in OS X - not viruses, not spyware, not adware, not DLLs when I uninstall something, not the Registry, not shared IRQs (less of an issue today, admittedly, but still comes up now and then).

But again, the first poster on this thread said he/she was switching to the Mac. Ask him/her why that is the case.

tallscot
11-16-2004, 10:26 AM
I only have experience with 3 apps of 3D on the OSX side of things, and in all honesty, they run very well and are very stable and feel pretty much like they do on the PC. I won't mention what they are, cause well...ya know...I've ruffled too many feathers so far, but Blabberlicious knows of what I speak. :cool:

Strata is much faster on the Mac, according to benchmarks. :)

Maxon's Mac support with Cinema 4D seems to be really good. They were out with a G5-optimized update right away. I think Cinema 4D XL compares with LW, feature-wise. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I haven't used Maya. Anyone can register with their support forum and talk to the users about the Mac support.

JML
11-16-2004, 11:43 AM
from tallscot :
- Being able to build your own PC is a blessing and a curse.-
yes, it all depend if you know what you are doing

- "The Mac hardware can have issues, but it's much, much, much more rare than on the PC"-

that's because there are much much much less hardware choices on the mac.
there are no miracle hardware, there are less issue on macs because they
choose which components they are going to put inside, and try to have the drivers work fine.
if they would let you choose between hundreds of motherboard and memory type,and harddrive types,etc... you would have a lot more issue.

---My problem is not with PC hardware, but it is with Windows. There are a lot more hassles and issues with Windows. You have to consider a lot more in Windows to keep a smooth running system, and even when you do everything perfectly, you can still get screwed. I don't have to consider anything in OS X - not viruses, not spyware, not adware, not DLLs when I uninstall something, not the Registry, not shared IRQs (less of an issue today, admittedly, but still comes up now and then). -----

yes with windows, you can get a lot of programs, and some of them are bad, and
some are excelent, you should take some precautions while installing suspicious softwares or surfing the web,
I and other people I know have an antivirus and firewall and I never had any problem.
a lot of people just ignore the windows security updates and don't have any ani-virus and after they complain..
mac OSx have a good security , but it does not have a super wonderful security system as you (and others) seem to believe, there are just less ('evil') programs out there or hackers to harm it

--But again, the first poster on this thread said he/she was switching to the Mac. Ask him/her why that is the case.--

that's fine he/she wants to switch, if it's works better for her/him, then it's good. the thread quickly turned into another fight, I just added my opinion.

JML
11-16-2004, 11:45 AM
From policarpo :
-- PC or Mac, it doesn't really matter as long as you are doing good work. --

agree !

tallscot
11-16-2004, 12:33 PM
yes, it all depend if you know what you are doing

Nope. Even if you know what you are doing, there are more incompatibilities and more issues with PC hardware. If you know what you are doing, you can overcome them more easily, but the issues exist.

that's because there are much much much less hardware choices on the mac.
there are no miracle hardware, there are less issue on macs because they
choose which components they are going to put inside, and try to have the drivers work fine.
if they would let you choose between hundreds of motherboard and memory type,and harddrive types,etc... you would have a lot more issue.

That was my point about it being a blessing and a curse. I said the Mac has fewer issues because it has fewer hardware configurations. I meant there is less choice, thus there are fewer problems. However, that isn't the only reason there are fewer problems.

Problems are created because of the design of the OS and the hardware too. It's impossible for me to have an IRQ issue on the Mac because the Mac doesn't have IRQs. It's impossible for me to have missing DLLs on the Mac because the Mac doesn't have DLLs. There are ZERO known OS X viruses. There is no spyware in OS X.

you should take some precautions while installing suspicious softwares or surfing the web,
I and other people I know have an antivirus and firewall and I never had any problem

Yes, I do all that on my PCs too. I don't have to consider any of it on the Mac.

but it does not have a super wonderful security system as you (and others) seem to believe, there are just less ('evil') programs out there or hackers to harm it

And the Web browser doesn't automatically install ActiveX plug-ins...

You are assuming that OS and system design do not affect the potential problems, when they make a great deal of difference.

The holes and security issues with MS software relates greatly to the design of Windows and IE.

that's fine he/she wants to switch, if it's works better for her/him, then it's good. the thread quickly turned into another fight, I just added my opinion.

I realize that. I am too. I disagree with the notion that XP and OS X are the same in regards to problems and issues. This couldn't be farther from the truth. XP requires a lot more hand-holding and has more hassles and issues than OS X, in my opinion. I can point you to support pages for peripherals that work on both platforms as evidence and I can point to XP support forums loaded with problems that don't exist on the Mac.

I support XP PCs myself with friends and neighbors.

I am trying to be objective here, though. PC hardware gives you more choice and more custom configurations. You get more bang for the buck at the lower end (I think the dual 2.5 Ghz G5 is a good deal). There are more games on Windows and more software.

The Mac has less choice, but it has less problems and I think the OS is superior. For many people, the Mac has enough choice in hardware and software. There are more games on Windows, but I have enough games on my Mac. There are pro 3D cards on the PC, but I'm happy with the 3D card I have (I did a poll on the LW PC forum on which 3D card everyone uses and not one responded with a "pro" 3D card).

JML
11-16-2004, 01:06 PM
I respect your opinions tallscot.
let's do some 3D now




(in case you want to know, there is a setting in internet explorer to disable "automatically install ActiveX plug-ins" , go in tools/internet options/security/customlevels, I don't know how it's set by default but you can change it there..)

archiea
11-16-2004, 10:12 PM
I say **** the OS and embrace the creative spirit.

Cheers.

Uless the OS says #[email protected]% to you first!!!! :eek:

Ge4-ce
11-17-2004, 01:59 AM
Uless the OS says #[email protected]% to you first!!!! :eek:

And so we go on and on and on and on and on on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on andon and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and...

the people winning this conquest of Flaming Platformwars are probably the ones that are working instead of answering these kinda arguments.. :rolleyes:

BeeVee
11-17-2004, 02:12 AM
Hi all,

This thread reminds me of the comp.sys.amiga.advocacy usenet newsgroup. It was full of PC owners (and a sprinkling of Mac owners too) coming in and saying why the Amiga was rubbish. There were quite a few Amiga owners that responded with the day's equivalent to the "lack of viruses and spyware" argument, but it was swiftly pointed out by competing-platform hawks that this was because no-one cared enough about the Amiga to damage it with viruses or spyware... that being said, the Amiga was probably the first of the platforms to be concerned with Virus Checkers, etc...

Just wanted to point out that "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"... :rolleyes:

B

Darth Mole
11-17-2004, 06:45 AM
Aye, and many a mickle macks a muckle.

As they say in Scotland.

BeeVee
11-17-2004, 07:04 AM
According to a Walkers Crisps campaign of the eighties, Scottish people also say "Ye'll no be having a sale, will ye?"

B

policarpo
11-18-2004, 10:07 AM
"O here here how hoth sprowled met the duskt the father of fornicationists but, (O my shining stars and body!) how hath fanespanned most high heaven the skysign of soft advertisement!"

Oh my head..... :p