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Beamtracer
04-08-2003, 06:54 AM
Journalistic freedom is being endangered because independent (non-embedded) war correspondents are being fired upon by the U.S. military in Baghdad.

No American television network has a correspondent or camera crew stationed in central Baghdad. Any video footage from central Baghdad you see on American networks has been purchased from foreign news agencies.

Most of these foreign journalists have been held up in the Palestine Hotel. They file stories from the rooftop of this hotel, where they can operate satellite uplinks and also get a panoramic view of the city.

A few hours ago American tanks aimed and fired on these journalists:
http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,932200,00.html

Shortly before that, the Qatar based al-Jazeera Baghdad newsroom was bombed by U.S. aircraft. The al-Jazeera correspondent was killed, and colleagues injured.

The U.S. military issued a statement that it was an errant "smart bomb" that accidently blasted al-Jazeera. Strange coincidence, considering al-Jazeera suffered the same fate in Afghanistan, when a missile "accidently" hit their Kabul office.

When al-Jazeera started an English language news service, their website was attacked, hacked, suffered denial-of-service attacks, and their domain name was also accidently deregistered:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/30131.html

The al-Jazeera website is down for more time than it is available, but if you keep trying you may be able to receive it at this address:
www.english.aljazeera.net

There are countless other examples of independent journalists and crew that have become targets in this war. A week or so ago a crew from the British ITV network was fired upon and killed. Yesterday a BBC crew was fired upon, and in another incident journalists from Spain and Germany were killed.

Whether you agree with the style of reporting from any of these networks is not the point. It is important for our democracy that news be available from more than one source.

al-Jazeera in particular had covered the injuries and suffering on the Iraqi side. They had highlighted many mistruths made by the U.S. commanders (such as the imagined uprising in Basra). Sure, the Iraqi side spreads its share of propaganda. However you need multiple independent sources on the ground to know what's really happening.

It's a sad day when journalists and media personnel become victims of a deliberate military attack. A very sad day.

Prosprctor
04-08-2003, 09:06 AM
Beamtracer,Beamtracer,Beamtracer...

They were warned before the war started that it wasn't safe there.

they knew and still know that Iraqi military will be targeted.
If they see any Iraqi military coming thier way, it would behove them to run like the dikkens to get far far away.
If they stay, then they take responsability for themselves.

Please, don't try to pin this stupidity of news reporters on anything the US military do.
Stupidity should always be pointed out.
When the lives of reporters or co-alition military are at stake, then reporters are expendable.

Roundpixel
04-08-2003, 09:47 AM
To add a bit of irony to these series of disgraceful incidents, the spanish cameraman just killed in the attack belonged to the only spanish TV network heavily criticising our government support to this war.

Maybe those smart bombs are somewhat "smart" after all.

Or they just follow orders.....

JC:mad:

Jim Capillo
04-08-2003, 10:51 AM
Spare me........

This is a WAR, kiddies - not the Olympics.

As far as I know, all the journalists there are volunteers. Sure, that's the fast track to making a name for yourself, but y'know what? That's the price of fame. Ask John Lennon. John Kennedy. Anwar Sadat.

All this talk of collusion mystifies me. Hussein has killed more Muslims than any other person in history. Isn't that alone enough to remove him? I'm sure you'd feel different if you lived there and were repressed.

Sure, we're the world police..... it's a dirty, difficult job - but if not policed, history has proven time and time again that countless Hitlers and Husseins would crawl out from under their rocks to pillage and kill their own people in a relentless power grab.

I, for one, am glad the Marines, Army, Air Force and Navy are over there whuppin' his fat arse.....


Semper Fi !

Roundpixel
04-08-2003, 11:07 AM
We Know this is WAR, kiddie, precisely this is what we (many) are against.

Call me what you want, anyway, but this stray attack on journalists prior to the final assault seems too convenient. Not that i say it´s not just that, a stray bomb, but too convenient anyway.


JC

Lightwolf
04-08-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Jim Capillo
This is a WAR, kiddies - not the Olympics.

As far as I know, all the journalists there are volunteers.
Exactly. They know it is a risk, just like the soldiers.


Hussein has killed more Muslims than any other person in history.
I think that one probably goes to the crusaders, so this highscore goes to the roman catholic church. Sadly enough.


Sure, we're the world police..... it's a dirty, difficult job - but if not policed, history has proven time and time again that countless Hitlers and Husseins would crawl out from under their rocks to pillage and kill their own people in a relentless power grab.
Wow, another attempt at comparing Hitler and Hussein. Don't, it doesn't work. One could just as easily compare, hm, Bush and Hitler, and that is just a stupid and inappropriate.
...and (imho) the only thing history has proven (if you look back at WWI and the resulting WWII) is that if it wasn't for blind nationalism, nobody would crawl out under any rocks in the first place.

danilo
04-08-2003, 11:09 AM
Now we can watch barbarism in action!

Lightwolf
04-08-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by danilo
Now we can watch barbarism in action!
Haven't we done that during the last couple of weeks on TV?

Meaty
04-08-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
Haven't we done that during the last couple of weeks on TV?

Yeah. We have seen Iraqi soldiers hang a woman for waving to coalition troops. We have seen Iraqi soldiers dress up as american troops and kill other iraqi soldiers who try to surrender. We have seen Iraqi troops coerce civilians, with the threat of the rape and murder of their familys, to fight. We have seen Iraqi soldiers take defensive positions inside and next to civilian targets. We have seen Iraqi troops execute and torture prisioners of war. The list goes on and on and on.

Oh and we have seen coalition troops show amazing restraint.

Roundpixel
04-08-2003, 11:37 AM
Where have you seen all that?

I might have missed some things lately as i got fed up of all this and devoted my free time to 3D (back on topic).

Did you actually see, not read or be told, but see those things you talk about?

I know TV networks on the US are behaving extremely careful on images shown and doubt that kind of things would have been allowed to be aired.

Don´t get me wrong, nowadays i doubt of everything i read. Truth is as dead as any of those collateral damage numbers (with human form)

JC

danilo
04-08-2003, 12:29 PM
More British soldiers is killed by american forces than by iraqis.

Meaty
04-08-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Roundpixel
Where have you seen all that?

I might have missed some things lately as i got fed up of all this and devoted my free time to 3D (back on topic).

Did you actually see, not read or be told, but see those things you talk about?

I know TV networks on the US are behaving extremely careful on images shown and doubt that kind of things would have been allowed to be aired.

Don´t get me wrong, nowadays i doubt of everything i read. Truth is as dead as any of those collateral damage numbers (with human form)

JC

Fortunatly, I was not there to witness it. This is what coalition troops reported. No, I did not see video of her swinging from the rope, I am not sure there was any. Although, if there was, surely someone would have blamed it on America ;)

JohnD
04-08-2003, 01:52 PM
A few hours ago American tanks aimed and fired on these journalists:

That's a big spin Beam. Funny how you didn't mention that there were snipers firing out of the windows. Yeah, the troops were going after the really threatening journalists. Nevermind about the guys with the guns.:rolleyes:

mattclary
04-08-2003, 02:05 PM
The snipers were there because they figured it was safe to hang hwere the journalists were just like the Iraqi command feels safer in a hospital. I can understand the Iraqi government fighting like this, they REALLY don't want to lose power and it's the only way to slow down the inevitable defeat. I can't understand all the Iraqi sympathizers here though. Do you really feel sorry for Hussein and his henchmen?

JohnD
04-08-2003, 02:14 PM
Wow, another attempt at comparing Hitler and Hussein. Don't, it doesn't work. One could just as easily compare, hm, Bush and Hitler, and that is just a stupid and inappropriate.

So until Hussein's murder count reaches 6 million, he isn't of Hitler status? Okay, well, he's at...what...last count I think was 2.5 million. Let's pull out and leave him for another 10 years and see if he makes up the next 3.5 million he needs to catch up to Adolf.

ingo
04-08-2003, 02:18 PM
So the american propaganda told you that there were snipers, we should know that this happens. I guess tomorrow they tell the americans were distracted by Iraqui girls in Bikinis, thats why they shot the hotel.
And the Qatar based al-Jazeera Baghdad newsroom was bombed by U.S. aircraft, the same like in Afghanistan, to keep them quiet of course.
And the shooting of a group of brit soldiers and a journalist yesterday shown in TV in realtime was in your eyes a fake i guess, tell that the wifes of the dead brit soldiers.
There are good and bad on both sides, but you make yourself an easy life believing every american propaganda without asking what is really going on.

mattclary
04-08-2003, 02:34 PM
Whatever, tired of arguing, don't know why I bother reading these threads. You are all a little paranoid.

JohnD
04-08-2003, 03:08 PM
Yeah, I guess you're right. Iraqi propaganda is so much more convincing, especially when the Iraqi info minister says coalition troops are no where near Baghdad, but yet the explosions and mayhem behind him tell a much more different story. Please.

Beamtracer
04-08-2003, 05:12 PM
Many Lightwavers work for large media organizations or have close a association with them. Some of us know media crews who are sent into these war zones.

Those who go to cover the war know that there is some danger involved, though none expect to lose there lives. Most take a calculated risk that they will be safe, and try not to do things that will make the risks more than necessary. They are doing their jobs just as we are doing our jobs providing 3D graphics, compositing or video editing.

Nobody expected that the U.S. military would actually take a deliberate shot at the journalists. The military knew that the Palestine Hotel was full of international media crews.

The excuse that snipers were operating from the building has been described as absurd by those journalists who witnessed the event. Journalists from dozens of international media organizations who are based at the Palestine Hotel all declare that there was no sniper fire coming from the hotel.

As more details emerge about the al-Jazeera incident, it turns out that two missiles hit the al-Jazeera office in Baghdad, and at the same time a third missile struck the offices of rival arabic language network Abu Dhabi TV. It is very hard to justify this as a coincidence or a mistake.

We rely on journalists who's 'copy' is not censored by the military to bring us an independent account of what is happening in the war. Embedded journalists can't do this. The fact that the Iraqi government has done worse things in its history is irrelevant. I'm surprised that some people here try to defend the act of shooting at journalists.

I know that staff at the Reuters news agency are in shock today as their cameraman stationed in the Palestine Hotel was killed. They had previously lost a cameraman in Afghanistan who was killed by bandits.

Those of us doing 3D work don't usually have to travel to places like this in their line of work. We can work safely knowing that nobody is going to fire on us. Those doing video editing sometimes do have to travel. Those doing camera work are always traveling to different locations. Sometimes news work involves traveling to dangerous places in order to keep one's job.

The deliberate killing of media personnel is a very sad and worrying development.

Roundpixel
04-09-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
That's a big spin Beam. Funny how you didn't mention that there were snipers firing out of the windows. Yeah, the troops were going after the really threatening journalists. Nevermind about the guys with the guns.:rolleyes:

Funny how you do mention this (you are so easily convinced mate), as reports from all journalists at the hotel, who were actually on its windows, on the lobby and on the roof, deny there were any kind of fire starting from the hotel. I mean, they were shooting their cameras, and reporting live, and any snipper at the hotel would have been immediately reported or spotted by them.

Nice and funny how the HQ stated the tank was responding to snippers firing from the hotel´s lobby. Funny how the tank fired at the 15th floor (well, maybe this was the executive floor´s lobby)

Again, how convenient is this to avoid witnesses of the bloodbath the final assault will turn into.

JC

Lightwolf
04-09-2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
So until Hussein's murder count reaches 6 million, he isn't of Hitler status?
No, that is not my point. But, they are/were two extremely different persons, as well as the fact that the circumstances that lead to them coming to power, and the times they lived in were different. I'm not talking bodycount (even though I don't know where your 2.5 million come from, the 6 million are wrong as well, these are, sadly enough, "just" the victims of the concentration camps).
One of the main differences is the fact that Hitler was a major, global threat to other countries when he started the war, since Germany was on parity with the other large nations. The Iraq clearly isn't.

ingo
04-09-2003, 04:06 AM
Well uncle beamtracer, youre absolutly right. We sit in our nice and cozy homes and looking at the war far away from us, at least now. But when you think that you have to sit in a tank without really seeing anything or knowing what goes on around you you get hypersensitive. And when you than see some blinking glasses on a hotel roof, although you know this is a press central, than you obviously get very nervous. So it was a typical stress overreaction, sad, but it can happen in a war.
But instead of saying they were attacted by flying toasters i think the pentagon should better give a short excuse for what happend. That way everybody understands this easily and its forgotten a few days later. But now this is used even by the iraqui propaganda, and that makes the pentagon look much worse.

Hervé
04-09-2003, 04:21 AM
I am OK with you Beam, but we should not be crying too much (just a bit) about journalists.... those guys accepted their positions.... and going to war was never without risks...

Now I can understand if, for americans, war is also in the propaganda... in other words, war is always total, there is no clean war....

Have a good day...

Beamtracer
04-09-2003, 07:21 AM
It is the loss of life, but it is also the loss of the free flow of information. They are our eyes and ears on the ground there.

All waring sides issue misinformation and propaganda. It always happens in war. The free journalists are the only way that the real story will be revealed.

It would be shocking if journalists were slaughtered because their views differ from the Pentagon line. This is the sort of stuff Saddam Hussein used to do.

A report on this execution of journalists can be read at The Independent newspaper (London):
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=395412

mattclary
04-09-2003, 09:51 AM
"Sniper Reminds Marines Baghdad Still Not Safe
32 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Sniper fire remained a danger for U.S. troops in Baghdad on Wednesday, even many hours after their tanks rolled virtually unopposed into the city center.

Shots came cracking out of nowhere on one unit taking a late afternoon rest next to the Martyrs Monument, a memorial for the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq (news - web sites) war in a park in east central Baghdad.


Reuters correspondent Matthew Green watched as U.S. Marines then fanned out across the open parkland to hunt for the gunman. The first bullet came close to hitting a French journalist who was traveling with the Americans, one Marine said."

And if Frenchie had actually bought the farm this would have been used as more evidence of the conspiracy by America to kill unfriendly reporters.

Beamtracer
04-09-2003, 08:07 PM
Sure, there have been people firing at American soldiers since the start of this war.

However the Palestine Hotel is completely inhabited by media personnel alone. This was fully known by the military.

There were no snipers in or near the hotel. The journalists were witness to this. Their video tapes and audio recordings also prove that there was no sniper fire from this area.

Every democracy needs news reporting to be free from government control. The murder of the news crews in Baghdad is an attack on free speech and democracy.

It is an attack on every free citizen.

ingo
04-10-2003, 03:32 AM
Well, after seeing that video i sadly have to agree with you Beam. That doesn't look that someone attacked the american tank before they fired. Hopefully this was only a hatred attack of a single crew, and not an ordered attack from the Rumsfeld crew. Otherwise the us government put themselves on the same low level of the Iraqui government.

Hervé
04-10-2003, 04:42 AM
What do you think, Off course they killed them on purpose.... 4 main reasons (mix them as you like)

War is ending, so some soldiers that until now did not kill want their part...

revenge on anyone who critized the US

last minute revenge for the 11th sep.

no wrong witness

Hervé

ingo
04-10-2003, 05:20 AM
Man are you in a bad mood. Well first the war is far from ending, just look at the ongoing war in Afghanistan (where the americans killed again a dozen civilists, but that is obviouly Afghanistan propaganda ;) ). And the Iraque war has nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks on the WTC, although since the investigations on the attack were blocked anything could have happened.
That the US needs no witnesses is the most obvious one, since we should see pictures of Iraquis thank the americans, and no killed civilist pictures. Maybe Don Rums simply had a bad day ;-)

Hervé
04-10-2003, 07:14 AM
I am just saying for sure what is going on with journalists, but off course I am 100000000% against, what do you think...??
I was reading a paper an hour ago, saying how hard the job is going to be to clear Bagdad.....

So Ingo I am not mad....

Beamtracer
04-10-2003, 07:28 AM
The ramifications will be huge for future conflicts. There will be less journalists willing to go into conflict zones, knowing that the U.S. will seek them out and deliberately fire at them.

Hervé
04-10-2003, 07:42 AM
...... deliberately, or on purpose, same thing no ??

Lightwolf
04-10-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
...... deliberately, or on purpose, same thing no ??
Yep, same thing.
I don't really believe in a big conspiracy theory here, but what happened was an error of judgement by the crew of the tank. I'm quite sure though that no actions will follow, even though a thorough investigation has been announced by US officials.

Hiraghm
04-12-2003, 01:23 PM
Hitler's murder count isn't 6 million. That's the *Jews* he murdered. He actually murdered over 20 million in the camps. The Jews were the largest segment of that.

By comparison, Stalin killed 40 million.

Where did you hear that Americans killed 11 civilians in Afghanistan?

I heard it from the U.S. military. Our military admits its screwups. Our enemies, foreign and domestic, take that as a sign of either ineptitude or corruption. Of course, other, corrupt militaries don't admit their screwups, so they never appear inept or corrupt.... until they face U.S. troops.

It's interesting that Regime forces were using the hotel (as well as schools, mosques and hospitals) as places to hide from coalition forces. It wasn't long after the Palestine hotel was fired on that the tide turned in Baghdad. Maybe it gave the regime the idea that they hiding behind journalists wasn't going to save them, so they hightailed it away from there. There are also reports that the alleged tank fire.. wasn't. The video I saw showed a machine gun opening up on the hotel.

Considering the (now revealed) lies and bs the reporters there were "reporting", it's a shame as many of them escaped as did.

Think of it as evolution in action.