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View Full Version : HUB vs Lightwave - your experiences, please



blabberlicious
10-26-2004, 04:18 AM
Hi Folks,
Not wishing to to start a pointless NT bashing thread, but I really struggling to get the HUB and Modeller to behave. Ever since the 8.01 update, the two apps keep falling out of contact with each other.

Slapping them back into sync usually means having to close everything down, including the HUB.

If I then start by launching Modeller, I get the 'not attached to HUB' dialogue...
If I start with Layout , the Modeller switch button is missing.

After five minute of restarting, shutting down, I'll finally get Layout to display a Modeller button, then use it to sync me 'into' modeller.

Then I'm good to go.... until Layout crashes again.

The repeat the above, about 30 times a day.

Nice.

I would really like to gather some feedback from the mac-heads, so that I can get NT to focus on issues that may be hard to pin down, but which contribute to a very poor end experience.


Second Issue ( the reason I have to do the above so often)
Frequent 'background crashing' of Layout whilst in Modeller:

The main crash scenario seems to be:
Editing points, vertex maps, re assigning surfaces in Modeller with the same object open in Layout. While in Modeler, Layout will unexpectedly quit. This happens a lot, as I assign placement of a few key textures to objects using using weight-maps, and you need to adjust & render as you go.

Also, deformation testing obviously involves scuttling between apps, and this too brings Layout down with alarming frequency. Layout Crashes all the freakin' time!

And Yes, I'm aware of the many FPRIMEs no go areas; certain gradients, changing SubD sizes, etc, and I try to work with them, in the hope that after the SDK integration, they'll address its bugginess.

I worked without FP for a day, trashed all prefs, repaired OSX privileges, and cleared all 3rd party plugins, but was still getting melt-down WAY too frequently. It just destroys you concentration, and put you in 'crisis management' mode pretty much all the time.

That's no way to work.

To get a little esoteric for a moment;
The left side of you brain (Mr.Creative) tends to back off when the right side of the brain (Mr.Practical) keeps having to step in to reverse the car out of the ditch and get them back on the road. After a while Mr.Creative gives up and lets Mr.Practical do ALL the driving.
Sure Mr.Practical can drive, but doesn't know any interesting places to go....(PC world, perhaps?)


Get Me?


And, please, no 'poor craftsman blames his tools' posts, as I'm not asking for bleeding edge enhancements, just the sort of stability that makes it possible to concentrate on creation process, rather than the 'resurrection game'.


So, if any of you people are doing similar stuff with Mod & Layout, I'd like to hear from you.

If it's working great, and you have way to slap them into compliance, I'm all ears.



P.S (gratuitous rival app comment)
I also use C4D, and they'd probably have to WRITE A PLUGIN to make the bloody thing crash, it's so stable.

Darth Mole
10-26-2004, 08:50 AM
I'm not suffering the fatalities you seem to be, but then I'm not pushing LW very hard (or actually using it very much) at the moment.

I don't have much trouble getting the two apps to sync on launch, but I have suffered the annoyance of making a model, moving it over to Layout and then going back into Modeller to make changes which then refuse to appear in Layout.

And they continue to refuse to appear, even though I've quit the apps, opened the model in Modeller, made alterations, saved it over the previous model and then opened the scene file again, independently of Modeller. Previously deleted layers still appear and when I quit Layout, often the aberrations reappear in Modeller. Grrr.

And after about the fourth of fifth copy-over between the two, the Hub finally wheezes its last and quits Layout - Modeller seems much more robust.

(And yes, I've now got C4D and will be looking very hard at my future upgrades... N-gons and near-realtime cloth in R9!? If it's as clever and as stable as everyone makes out, well, LW could be relegated to much more of a supporting role)

blabberlicious
10-26-2004, 10:34 AM
Spent the afternoon working on a lowly Dell 1Ghz Laptop.

I've had one crash since lunch, that's been that with FPrime running pretty much all the time. No problems updating geometry, weight-maps. The updated objects get passed to Layout - and FPrime (gasp!) - rather than crashing it.


Pretty dispiriting, unless you have shares in Dell - that is.

monovich
10-26-2004, 11:52 AM
hub works "fairly" well for me on a dual 2.0 /w 10.2.5 + 8.0.1

I solved my fprime crashes by pausing fprime before switching to Modeler, then waiting for all the displays to refresh when back in Layout before unpausing fprime.

Oh, when working with or modifying morph maps, things get a lot dicier.

Which gradients don't work with Fprime?

In the past I've disabled the hub, but at the moment I'm refreshing models so fast, I NEED the auto-updates.

-s

blabberlicious
10-26-2004, 12:08 PM
Well - I'm compiling a list of FPrime crash areas - but, I actually had to get stuff done today (hence the switch to PC) :-(

I hope FPRime is being taken care of.

It's the inherent instability with refreshing models that really worries me. How long is it going to before it gets addressed or even acknowledged.

Another year perhaps - and then we'll be getting the sort of stability PC users have had since 7.5's release (relatively speaking).

New tools are all well and good, but make the core stuff work - please!

I read a post on on another thread from NT Support chiding us for not picking up bugs from the initial LW8 release...

Hilarious.

mindful
10-26-2004, 05:43 PM
I am also having serious and constant crash problems with Lightwave, particularly Layout, and the Hub. When I first started using LW about a year ago I would not be able to save from Modeler after switching back from Layout - and lose all my changes. I would also get results that didn't seem to make sense. In other words, it wasn't the seamless experience that I thought that it should be. So I disabled it but got tired of the workflow that followed - having to replace the object or save and reload the scene. Not to mention having to add new layers manually. So recently I started to use it again but the crashes were constant. So I disabled it...

I have had numerous Zero k files as Layout crashed. All kinds of little interface and workflow inconsistencies that require me to constantly be on guard. I really like Lightwave and when things flow it is great, but I feel that I can't get into it wholeheartedly because of the consistent problems. (Not being able to see points in Modeler shaded views, etc...)

I also crash a lot with FPrime unless I pause it before doing any image loading (esp. HDRI images in the Image Editor using Image World, or adding presets to objects by double clicking. But FPrime is really great and it is one of the main reasons that I have been sticking with LW.

I was looking at C4D for a while but since Maya Complete costs less than the Studio Bundle, I figure that I'll go with Maya (probably by the end of the week!!). It's been a tough choice for me since I have invested so much in training and I really like the way LW renders.

Sorry if this appears like a rant but to tell the truth it's just been disheartening...
Although I have considered switching over to a PC for 3D work, I don't want to since I have so much invested in software and I REALLY like my Mac! It is nice that we have more options now (Modo, ZBrush, Silo, Maya Unlimited, etc...)

I suppose I'll hold onto LW in case some updates show up or to continue using the Modeler (which besides some usability issues has been pretty good). I will probably continue to work through some of the training that I have as well to improve my skills. I also have a generic PC that I may use it with.

BTW, my PC Lightwave friends tell me that they have no problem with the Hub.

Cheers to all...

jdavidbakr
10-29-2004, 07:54 AM
Sorry if this appears like a rant but to tell the truth it's just been disheartening...
Although I have considered switching over to a PC for 3D work, I don't want to since I have so much invested in software and I REALLY like my Mac! It is nice that we have more options now (Modo, ZBrush, Silo, Maya Unlimited, etc...)
For the price of Maya you probably could get a PC box to just run LW and keep your Mac. I have begun to consider that, what with the investment I have in LW and the sluggishness it has on the Mac. I despise Windows but the UI on Windows is so much faster... I have an old HP that runs at 400 MHz and the LW interface is ten times faster than on my 800 MHz iMac.

blabberlicious
10-29-2004, 10:30 AM
despise Windows but the UI on Windows is so much faster... I have an old HP that runs at 400 MHz and the LW interface is ten times faster than on my 800 MHz iMac.

Another day, YET ANOTHER pile of friggin' Zero K file burn outs...

I've had no replies from tech support this week.

Probably too busy announcing Intel roadmaps, and dropping hints about features in upcoming releases.

PLEASE NT:

1: Read this thread
2. Take it seriously.
3. Acknowledge that it's a issue, or at least confirm that they they think the current stability is acceptable.


If anyone at NT actually spent any time actually working on their mac 'offering', I think we would not be in this mess.


Also: How hard is it to stop LW crashing EVERY TIME YOU REPLACE AN OBJECT???

Lightwolf
10-29-2004, 12:27 PM
Just to chime in (since everyone complains :) ).
I've used the hub from 6.0 onwards, on a variety of machines, and so far had no stability problems.
Quirks, yes (like layers not updating the way I'd like them to), crashes no.

Cheers,
Mike

jdavidbakr
10-29-2004, 12:40 PM
Just to chime in (since everyone complains :) ).
I've used the hub from 6.0 onwards, on a variety of machines, and so far had no stability problems.
Quirks, yes (like layers not updating the way I'd like them to), crashes no.

Cheers,
Mike

I had great success with the hub for a long time, until 8.0.1, when I started experiences random crashes going back and forth. I disabled the hub, I'm not sure if it helped or not, I still get random crashes. I'm about to turn it back on because I keep making surfacing changes in LW and modeling changes in Modeler and then saving one and not the other and it gets really confusing.

mindful
10-29-2004, 04:30 PM
For the price of Maya you probably could get a PC box to just run LW and keep your Mac.

I actually have a mid level PC but haven't really used it that much. I really want to try to do as much as I can without switching back and forth between machines and I prefer working on my Mac. But as I mentioned earlier, I may just start working on it with Lightwave. I have been pricing PC's a bit and it seems that a decent Boxx system or higher-end Dell are still way upwards of $3,000, not to mention a decent monitor. I am still looking though and haven't ruled it out since I know there are always bargains and used machines to be had. I also like a lot of what comes out of 3D Studio...

To tell the truth Lightwave has overall been a mixed bag for me and I can only really speak of it as a Mac app, since that is what I run it on. The usability of the program is somewhat counter to most of my experience when working with graphics programs. There are a lot of little things but for me they all add up. Combine that with regular crashes and Zero K files and, ...well, ouch! It has held me back from really tackling the program which I know is necessary if I want to reap the benefits. I really like the way LW renders and I've gotten fairly comfortable with the Texturing which is quite powerful. I would probably keep at it if it didn't keep bombing. It could be something about how my computer is configured and I know I don't have enough RAM (Only 512MB although that will change next week when I'll be maxed out at 2Gb.) However Maya PLE and C4D v9 Demo, both run like champs! Not to mention Photoshop, After Effects, Flash, etc,...

I was thinking of just wiping LW off my computer and starting again. BTW, I am only at 10.3.4 and LW 8.0. Should I upgrade to 10.3.5 and LW 8.01? I haven't heard of any benefits and only more problems with LW, (although I may do 10.3.5 because of Maya Complete which I have decided to definitely buy!)

Anyway, I'm still open to working more with LW and hope that some updates can at least improve things.

Cheers!

exit6
10-29-2004, 04:37 PM
I have been pricing PC's a bit and it seems that a decent Boxx system or higher-end Dell are still way upwards of $3,000, not to mention a decent monitor.
I got a 3.2 GHz PC from TDN with a 17" monitor for like 1600 bucks, with 2 gigs of ram and a DVD burner. On the hub thing, I find that if yo have the surface editor open in both layou and modeler you can crash. But no problems moving between Layout and Modeler pre-crash. This is on my dual 1.8 G5.

mindful
10-29-2004, 05:22 PM
I got a 3.2 GHz PC from TDN with a 17" monitor for like 1600 bucks, with 2 gigs of ram and a DVD burner. On the hub thing, I find that if yo have the surface editor open in both layou and modeler you can crash.

Sounds like a good deal Sleepless! I'll have to take my PC search a little more seriously. Good idea about the surface editors. I actually found it confusing to have them both open when switching back and forth. Also, I think that I have been Command-Tab switching between Layout and Modeler and even using mouse gestures. I was more careful of using F12 when I recently tried using the Hub again, but still crashed... Should I only be using F12?

blabberlicious
I see that you are using a Geforce 128 Ti card. I was looking to upgrade my card (the ATI 9000 Pro 64MB that came stock with my Dual 1.42 G4) but I was led to believe that there are no other optoions for me since I am using a dual monitor set-up with an Apple 20" Cinema and Apple 17" digital displays. There is the ATI 9800 Pro 128 but it has a VGA out and I don't want to buy another monitor. I was told that all the other cards are G5 only. Any feedback with your card or links to any other threads that might help?

Thanks...

exit6
10-29-2004, 08:37 PM
Also, I think that I have been Command-Tab switching between Layout and Modeler and even using mouse gestures. I was more careful of using F12 when I recently tried using the Hub again, but still crashed... Should I only be using F12?
I only use command-tab, a holdover from the PC. Yeah, on PC's you can't buy from a big company like Dell, the same box would have been in the $3000 range. I recommend these guys highly, we've been using them for like six years now, http://www.tdn.net/ You can get an idea of cost from the'r site but if you call them they'll make a custom quote for you. (I swear I don't work for them! I just think they do a great job)

Chazz
10-29-2004, 08:38 PM
hub works "fairly" well for me on a dual 2.0 /w 10.2.5 + 8.0.1

I solved my fprime crashes by pausing fprime before switching to Modeler, then waiting for all the displays to refresh when back in Layout before unpausing fprime.
-s

I can confirm this; So far I'm having (knock on wood) great luck with 8 stability-wise. The one thing that reliably crashes Layout is doing anything more than a simple edit in Modeler with Fprime running in the background. As Monovich said, I've gotten in the habit of pausing Frpime when switching to Modeler. This does not happen on my Athlon 64 box however. (The Mac is a dual 2.0 Ghz and Radeon 9600.)

Aside from that, 8.0 is the most stable I've seen Lightwave on the Mac in quite some time, even with the Hub enabled...

If you're having all this trouble, perhaps LW or the Mac need changing...sounds like this setup you have it not working for you.

BaseZero
11-05-2004, 10:19 AM
I have had no problems with the HUB whatsoever… Of course, I have it disabled entirely. It's been flaky ever since we first started using LW on the Mac back with version 5.0… so, until it works and the forums start reflecting this, we just keep it off. It's alot better than trying to rebuild/reanimate something that you didn't save quick enough or the HUB didn't save at all…

Scazzino
11-11-2004, 09:40 AM
I have tracked a lot of LW instability to use of the hub on the Mac, and have disabled it. LW runs a lot more smoothly with the hub off... Personally I just don't get enough of a benefit from the hub to justify the increased instability it causes...

-0

-MikeS

blabberlicious
11-11-2004, 10:47 AM
I agree, I could eradicate most of the major stability issues by using C4D :-)

But, seriously, if you rig and need to perform deformation/morph test - not using the hub is a pain.

At what point should we expect such a major feature to work?