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ackees
04-07-2003, 04:49 PM
I have emailed tec support about a cmyk output option for print in LW3D, and to this day there has been no reply. Maybe they do not exist. Not answering tec questions is the beginning of the end for any software package. First they do not answer questions, then they post bad upgrades, then late upgrades, then no upgrades, then death. I am worried.

Bytehawk
04-07-2003, 04:55 PM
there is no native cmyk support in Lightwave.

You should do it in post (PS?)

BeeVee
04-08-2003, 06:05 AM
Speaking as part of the tech support team here in Europe, I can honestly say I've never received your question, but my answer would be the same as ByteHawk's.

Since LightWave was intended as a package for screen resolutions, either film or broadcast, there are no settings for CMYK (or print resolution). To avoid gamut problems, and ensure that you have the widest possible range of colours for the conversion I would suggest that you save an HDR image to a package capable of dealing with it and converting to CMYK. I'm not sure that the combination is very likely, however...

B

wapangy
04-08-2003, 01:25 PM
Yea, I emailed NewTek about somethings last week, and have not gotten any answer. Usually they reply to me within 24 hours. :(

Whats going on?

ackees
04-10-2003, 09:12 AM
Bee Vee. I went to the lightwave.com site, you know the one with the photos of the tec guys. Actually after not getting a reply I also tried cus. services also no response, and that’s terrible. Lightwave 3d has made a big error not supplying CMYK output because after producing those beautiful renders the colours get ‘messed up’ when you come to prepare for print, you have to control cols. before rendering or the post edit becomes heavy. It is crazy not to support CMYK because everything and I mean every commercial project will need some print element to it (you see the poster and the flyer before the movie). Does anyone know of a plug-in or neat fix that works? HDRI is not the solution because the main problem is colour change not DPI. I wrestled with an image for days to get the print to look like the onscreen image (this issue is more important than you realise – that’s why CMYK was left out).

BeeVee
04-10-2003, 09:30 AM
I understand perfectly about CMYK since I worked editing magazines for about eight years! :) Unfortunately, the tools you can use to get the gamuts necessary for good rendering in LightWave aren't exactly compatible with LightWave's rendering method. Your only solution is to do as I used to and make sure to take test renders of areas you know are going to be tricky in CMYK - areas of blue and green mainly - and see what they look like. Lastly, don't just settle for Photoshop's conversion of RGB to CMYK as it stands. You can get a lot more vibrancy by fiddling with the channels both before and after you change modes.

My point about using a floating point image as a starting point has nothing to do with image resolution, but everything to do with the gamut changes between RGB and CMYK colourspaces. Please also remember that people in video and film (to a lesser extent) have to worry about their colour ranges...

B

John Fletcher
04-10-2003, 09:37 AM
I can assure you we do exist. There is only three of us in NewTek Technical Support for the entire world. We are always on the phones with the customers and get on the e-mails on a daily basis. If you would like to reach us right away, please call us at 210-341-8444. If you choose to send an e-mail, please send it to:

[email protected]

I come in early every morning to check e-mails and distribute them several times a day.

John


John Fletcher
NewTek Technical Support Manager

BeeVee
04-10-2003, 09:42 AM
*Cough!* When John says "for the entire world", he is obviously not saying that there are two people in Europe, myself and Jacques Madec, who also do tech support because that goes without saying...

:)

B

MGuerra
04-10-2003, 09:47 AM
I'm sure he meant everywhere else in the world that you guys don't cover. Also, since they're pretty swamped, I'm sure it feels like the whole world, or even the two neighboring planets... :eek:

BeeVee
04-10-2003, 09:51 AM
:) Don't forget Yoshi in Japan either!

B

ackees
04-10-2003, 10:04 AM
Bee Vee
This is an engineering problem and solving it is the difference between an average piece of software and a great piece of software engineering. Doing odd workarounds is a bit like doing some strange yoga that you really don’t understand, in the end the colours in the image get dislocated. You cannot beat first class engineering solutions that solve real practical problems for users (this is a big oversight, print colours are always going to behave differently from rgb).

What I would like to hear is something like:
Yes this is a major problem but our engineers are so good that they will have a solution for you in the next update.
Then I say:
You guys are awesome!

Thanks John, but truly tec support did not respond, neither did customer support. Now your comment about phoning is valid I have phoned before when I could not get an email response and the phone system did work, but I regard phoning as a last desperate cry for help, I am sure it is better for everyone if the email system works, even an acknowledgement that the problem is queued would help.

BeeVee
04-11-2003, 01:43 AM
The fact of the matter is that if we had less recalcitrant printers, we would have moved to a stochastic hexachrome system many years ago and there would be far fewer problems with colours not adequately represented by the CMYK gamut. LightWave is a program for video and film primarily. To my knowledge none of the well-known 3D software packages - Cinema 4D, Maya, XSI, 3dsmax - provide output in CMYK directly because you would have to limit the number of colours you can render in. CMYK space *is* bigger than RGB, I know that, but the amount of unacceptable colours makes the range smaller than strict RGB.

All the best,

B

ackees
04-11-2003, 02:35 AM
Well, are you guys going to support CMYK or not?
We are talking about an option here not limiting everything to CMYK (that would be madness). I am not a programmer but I can see that it won’t be a major engineering step to include a CMYK colour picker, nor would it be a major step to have a check box that limits the colours of imported images so you can see how the colours are going to change in CMYK. Further more lights may have a CMYK option, rendering can also have a CMYK option (or perhaps something much more thought out than my random thoughts on this). As to the other 3D packs, well we want to lead not follow. By including CMYK options and thinking about print output - which is a vital necessity – you will give Lightwave 3D an incredible edge over the competition, just think of the marketing potential. If I am working on large print projects that involve 3d (and many do) and there is a 3D pack that is print savvy then that’s the one.
PS you may also want to consider DPI and LPI as an option for image size rendering as well (and I know Lightwave is a Film TV thing but think about the real world out there).

Bytehawk
04-11-2003, 04:26 AM
do you really take the finished output from lightwave straight to the printers or do you do post processing / quark, photoshop etc... ?

I use Lightwave proffesionally and mainly for print (and I muck around with animation in my free time), but have never had any problems with its RGB/HDR output. Nor have I noticed any real lack of features to this end.

Red_Oddity
04-11-2003, 06:12 AM
Not to mention, everything you do for print on a computer is pretty much always a bit off a guess as to how it really will look in the end, monitors, as we all know, are using a RGB aproximation aswell as the software...
Print is always a bit of a problem, you just have to build up experience what RGB/CMYK profiles look like what with which printing facility...it's more a case of experiences than it has to anything with LW or anyother piece of software for that matter.

Just store you monitor settings (best use a TFT LCD as these pretty much have the same colors and brightness/contrasts), color profiles, and make sure you log away a printed end result (aswell from you as from the print facility) with a backup of your projects.

BeeVee
04-11-2003, 06:27 AM
Even with a TFT LCD you are still going to have problems because of the inherent difference between transmissive RGB and reflective CMYK...

B

ackees
04-11-2003, 07:24 AM
The issue is not if there are problems, everyone agrees there are all sorts of problems, the main point is will LW offer CMYK support? I do not believe that CMYK and print output support is a major hurdle, many of the issues have already been solved (in terms of code), I mean LW will not be the first digital software pack to offer CMYK output (they do not need to reinvent the wheel), systems are in place and work successfully daily.

What I want is the ability to see if a render is going to print OK or not, If the colours change dramatically on a test renter I can make changes before sending to the client. The worst thing is to have a beautiful render only for the printed vers. to look like a dogs dinner. You do need a guide, and you do need a guide in Lightwave.

Lightwolf
04-11-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by ackees
The issue is not if there are problems, everyone agrees there are all sorts of problems, the main point is will LW offer CMYK support? I do not believe that CMYK and print output support is a major hurdle, many of the issues have already been solved (in terms of code), I mean LW will not be the first digital software pack to offer CMYK output (they do not need to reinvent the wheel), systems are in place and work successfully daily.

What I want is the ability to see if a render is going to print OK or not, If the colours change dramatically on a test renter I can make changes before sending to the client. The worst thing is to have a beautiful render only for the printed vers. to look like a dogs dinner. You do need a guide, and you do need a guide in Lightwave.
I don't think this is going to happen for a couple of reasons:
Internally, lightwave renders in RGB (as do all commercial renderers I'm aware of).
The only thing LW could do is take the internal floating point, convert it to CMYK and then display that (which means converting it back to RGB for the monitor). Also, since no 3D app I know of has any screen colour calibration controls (besides gamma may be), it just would not make sense.
Make sure Photoshop is calibrated properly, render and save as a .psd with 16 bits (to give you some headroom correcting), load that into PS and convert RGB->CMYK there.
Cheers,
Mike

ackees
04-11-2003, 10:12 AM
I remember the days when you would take a 3D render into photoshop and smoothe the jagged edges, that’s what you did and no one really questioned it because that was the state of the technology then. Now you do not expect to take your render into photoshop and make all the edges good, yes you do go to photoshop for post but you want to change as little as possible or you may as well paint your 3D scene with oils. So what I am saying is that the technology is at a stage where you can preview in lightwave no doubt. Nothing is perfact but what you want is your CMYK print to as close as possible to your RGB. It can be done, I’ve done it. It was painful but I took textures into photoshop made them CMYK adjusted the colours in CMYK then changed back to RGB then imported to Lightvave then render, then back to photoshop and yes I had to do less colour correction, the CMYK and RGB were closer. I also try to get CMYK value for lights. Now I think this can be made easier with a little help from within Lightwave, it’s time for some improvement, just because we have always gone back an forth to photoshop it doesn’t mean we should continue. If a software package doesn’t move forward it is moving backwards.
Lightwave should give a clear response on this (CMYK).

Lightwolf
04-11-2003, 10:28 AM
ackes,

I get your point, to a certain extent.
However, LW ist still an RGB renderer, it has no internal CMYK pipeline. If all you want is i/o for CMYK and a CMYK colour picker, fine. Should be doable.
How should LW convert the CMYK to RGB (since it has to do that, otherwise the whole renderer goes completely bust and has to be rewritten from scratch). Colour profiles?
How should it convert the RGB back to CMYK? You would need a complete cms built into LW just to handle those conversions properly, and that is no easy task.
Re-Wrtiting the renderer to CMYK is out of the question as well, since you'll annoy all the film and screendesign people (the video guys will want YUV anyhow :D ), and CMYK calculations are different from RGB (subtractive vs. additive).

Epita
04-11-2003, 12:53 PM
Remember that just chaning ur moniter will also affect what everthing looks like. Complaints about my work being to dark are commen, yet on all of my moniters it looks fine. And there not on max settings too. However when ive printed stuff straight from LW, ive had no problem with a whole range of colors. I think it could depend on the printer system that u are using, as well as conversion settings. Some printers can pring RGB more true (wha) than others.

Epita

Chuck
04-12-2003, 07:57 AM
This topic is most directly a feature request, not a support issue or bug report, so the thread will be removed to the feature request forum, and retitled appropriately. There is some aspect of technique to the query as well, and perhaps that portion of the thread could be pursued in the LightWave Tips and Techiques section.

The Technical Support team is not intended to provide either feature request feedback or to answer technique questions, nor to provide tutorial support. Feature requests should be directed to the product team rather than to Technical Support. This can be done by posting in the feature request forum, or submitting to the feature request email address at [email protected] Technique queries should preferably be posted in the Tips and Techniques Forum section.

The LightWave team does not in the normal course of things provide an instant answer on feature requests, nor in most cases a direct reply at all, as there is a significant review process to go through before decisions are made on features to implement and when to implement them, and information on new features is only publicized at the time of the release of a new version of LightWave.

policarpo
04-12-2003, 12:53 PM
hrmmm....i've been doing 3D for print and to be honest with you I haven't had any issues whatsoever or the need of a CMYK render out of LightWave or any package i've used in the past. I've worked with everything from UI widgets built as 8bit colors, website screens, you name it...and Photoshop has always given me the power and potential to fix anything. It's what it was designed for.

I merely import my renders into Photoshop and do a CMYK preview and do any and all adjustments in color that i need to. My matchprints have been spot on and never once have I had anything not print the way I intended it to (well...i did when i started out, but i quickly got with the program and learned to solve any problems and have streamlined my workflow so there aren't these type of problems anymore).

I'm curious as to why you are having issues with your print work...it's really weird. Even photos are natively RGB most of the time because of file sizes.

Are you trying to use colors which are outside of the CMYK spectrum with your pieces?

Also...having a native 128bit rendering architecture makes LightWave the best print solution since we now have the power to push and pull our renders as if they were true photographs.

Very weird. Also, how adept are you with Photoshop, because Photoshop gives you unlimited power to control curves, levels, Hue and Saturation like you wouldn't believe.

Hope you solve your problem, but I don't think having a CMYK rednering option would do anything for you. But hey, i've been wrong before.:rolleyes:

Elmar Moelzer
04-12-2003, 01:49 PM
Yupp, I am with Policarpo. Much easier to match the colors in the post (I am certainly not going to build everything in CMYK).
But hmm if there are more people needing that, NT might be interested in giving you some CMYK- stuff. I am not sure all that you have requested will be possible, but who knows...
CU
Elmar

Mylenium
04-13-2003, 04:58 AM
Hi guys,

I have to say that this thread is pretty pointless. Yes, we could have CMYK color pickers, but that is all the potential for a CMYK pipeline. Like Elmar and so many others stated, the key to success is proper calibration of your system and that is pretty much in the hand of the user so NT will not be able to influence that. Also I'm missing some technical/ mathematical/ physical understanding. On computers everything is RGB and even Photoshop in CMYK mode is still RGB (it just tries to mimic the look by adjusting colors). You have to keep in mind, that in nature all light is composed of multiple wavelengths that can be simulated using RGB color space. Since all 3D apps are centered around this, it is impossible to manipulate e.g. the color of a certain pixel so it comes out perfectly in CMYK. There are so many influences (lighting, shading etc.) so you wont see anything unless it is rendered.

Mylenium

Lamont
04-17-2003, 01:50 PM
I can't see why you'd want CMYK in LW? Are you gonna run straight to the press with your render? Or do you have some plug-in that when you hit F9 will output to a printer?

I would think anyone who uses LW for print would rather edit the image in post...

ackees
04-17-2003, 03:53 PM
Thanks chuck. I do wish someone had told me that the query had gone to the ‘wrong department’ rather than simply ignoring it, how many emails like this do tec support dump? Surely you can set up an email script that (with the click of a button) will inform the sender?
Rendering in the appropriate output gamut is professional, if you are making a render for a high quality brochure you will want the final render to be as close to the final print as possible, no doubt, this means using ‘print legal colours’ in the render just as you would use print legal colours in a photoshop illustration, or print legal spot colours in illustrator. The only way to do that is to have professional assistance from the software you are using. ‘Render-wishing’ (rendering and hoping your colours will print) and then fixing in Photoshop is the normal process, however I think this can be improved, the ideal is to render with the correct gamut and enhance in Photoshop. All this talk of LW being RGB, and real light waves etc are missing the point, take HDRI I am sure there were arguments like “whats the point of HDRI if you can’t view it on screen?” Those arguments are wrong HDRI is important even if no one can truly see its output. CMYK options in LW is no big deal technologically.

Lightwolf
04-18-2003, 07:47 AM
Hi ackees,
I'm not trying to step on your toes or something, but:

Originally posted by ackees
CMYK options in LW is no big deal technologically.
It is. Doing proper CMYK previews is quite a hard thing to do, and colour profile handling isn't easy either. I've done a bit of programming with colour profiles (I had to), and they are a right pain to use. It is also something that is very far away from the normal tasks of a 3D package.
This is a bit like saying: I want Photoshop to support animation and 3D rendering ;)
It is not that I don't see your need, but don't keep your expectations to high, I don't think you'll see CMYK support that allows for proofing in LW (or any other 3D package) soon.
Cheers,
Mike

trick
04-18-2003, 11:33 AM
having worked with some publishing agencies I can say the following:

Everything you do on a computer is done in RGB space. The moment you go to a printer (there are a few RGB printers) everything is in CMYK space. To make dependable prints you have to make a whole system calibration for all your printers, scanners, cameras, monitors. This is not an easy task and it is actually a profession in itself. The best way to handle errors in printing is to make a profile in the application who can control all incoming and outgoing images that come from all the calibrated devices: in most companies this is Photoshop and there is where you have to make your calibration profiles. It is absolutely not wise to let Lightwave do the RGB-CMYK conversion since this is not the application that is doing the output: Photoshop IS. If you want to use textures on objects they should come from your calibrated input - after that they are in RGB space which gives reliable presentation on your calibrated monitor. The final render in RGB space gives reliable presentation on your cal.monitor.

Ask any professional Color proofer in a publishing agency.. they tell you that working in CMYK mode must be in ONE application that is closest to all Input/Output devices....

However, I can imagine that it could be usefull to show a gamut warning overlay when doing texturing and lighting. Something that can help is G2 from Worley which has a very handy Gamut Control tool. I use it myself and already can not live without it...

ackees
04-19-2003, 02:06 PM
Gamut control is the answer because no matter how well your systems are calibrated if that yellow is unprintable then it will change and so can a whole range of colours (I didn’t know G2 offered this feature but I am not surprised, the smarter software companies will be offering something in this direction, I am just trying to wake up LW and NT). You need some control before you get to photoshop this is the whole point, no one expects LW to try to be a photoshop. Lightwolf quite a number of 2D software packs offer 3D utilities those that do not have 3D options are rushing to include them. This whole argument is not really about whether its technically possible or difficult to include CMYK options in LW, it is about aesthetics, vision and creative control. Essentially the style of print imagery is changing to include 3D. Where you would once have oversaturated RGB glowing monsters that signified the 3D aesthetic (its signifiers were rooted in arcane processes and the end result was the proof of taking a certain path - the path being more important than the end result), now 3D is being more and more integrated in the current ‘stlye’of print, this means more control in the 3D look at the 3D stage before you get to post. To have the ability to control this ‘vision’ while you are creating it is the ideal.

trick
04-19-2003, 04:04 PM
Ackees,

I really can understand your wishes, but having experience in this area (having worked with colour proofers) it is not only gamut control and CMYK mode that gives you the best output on print. It is the understanding of what you want to do on which medium.

Working in CMYK mode is ONLY useful if you know on which medium and which printer you are going to print. Making all your choices about lighting and texturing around this profile in Lightwave really limits yourself in the rendered output. When after some while a client comes and likes this output on another printer with another paper, are you going to redo the whole lighting, texturing and rendering in Lightwave again ??? This will cost you more time and money then doing some image editing in post...

You say, 3D is a technique that is more and more incorprated in print and should therefore include CMYK control.....Film is a medium that has been invented long before the first CMYK printer came to the market. I think you will get strange reactions from camera designers when you ask them to incorporate a gamut control tool that should restrict all colors that would not get on your specific output. Film is the perfect medium to hold all the base information for a perfect photo (still better then digital). Only when you decide to connect the camera to a computer with the intent to print them out, you will have to calibrate this device to match your color profiles for your output...

So I think it is far much better to understand what rules you have to apply in RGB space, to make the best CMYK conversion in your appropriate imageeditor (PhotoShop ?!)

Personally I would like to stay away as far as possible from anything that has to do with CMYK printing. I want to be an expert in CG, and being an expert in printing is just another profession....If you want to make the perfect output on any kind of paper: make a slide of your HiRes RGB rendered output and give this to a printing service.....they surely know what to do with this...

Be Happy Be Cool

ackees
04-20-2003, 06:30 AM
Hello trick.
Render wishing can be very expensive. You do your CG image and send it off and hope for the best, you will have to pay for someone to fix it or pay painfully in photoshop as you try to correct the gamut (think of this: that beautiful band of glowing yellow light has horrible green bands in it as you make the image CMYK, the only solution is to repaint the glow with a legal CMYK yellow, hours of painful work (better to spend your time in 3D). Wouldn’t it be better to have adapted the light before output to photoshop? Of course it would, CMYK control in LW will help you to avoid such horrors). Print processes predate film by thousands of years. CMYK gamut is only a way of ensuring what you see on screen is printable on a CMYK press. Why should you bother about the knowledge of print processes and paper? As an artist all you want to ensure is that what you have rendered will be printable. I had this problem this week, I send a CMYK with embedded profile to the printer, he says everything looks muddy, I say have you calibrated your systems, he says yes, I say have you used the embedded profile he says no, I say use the embedded profile, he does and every thing prints as I had intended.
I, do your render, 2, check the gamut, 3 Adapt if necessary, 4 output CMYK with embedded gumut. All this stuff about ‘setup’ is a distraction (because everyone has a different setup) all you need is to embed your CMYK profile in your image. And remember even if you go to video you still have to worry about legal colours. 3D artist who are across this are professional, the ones who think you just do whatever and let someone else worry about it are not. The film will look great, the TV advert will look great, the posters will look great – that’s the person who gets the commission.

trick
04-20-2003, 04:24 PM
Ackees,

I was not comparing film to the print process but to 3D rendering on a computer screen. A photographer uses the physical porperties of film and the technical abilities of the camera to make the pictures with the highest dynamic range. Limiting this dynamic range to meet the requirements for print is not an option for a good photographer. The same goes for rendering.

Maybe it is just a matter of preferences. I never had any kind of printing problems. But then I know the rules I have to respect to get perfect output plus I have partner agencies who know if they mess up my work they lose me as a client. At the earliest stage you can check RGB output in the FP Render Display by dragging your mouse through the window. A better option is G2 which also offers Gamut Control. To avoid errors with glows, flares, bloom, strong lighting, etc. a lot of problems can be solved by rendering in passes, so you can edit each pass in post. Also have a print with spot colors on your desk to see which RGB colors are in a dangerous range...

I f all this won't help, nagg NT and make them incorporate a CMYK Gamut Control tool (with optional zebra effect) in the FP Render Display....I think this would be the most usefull place...

ackees
04-21-2003, 02:12 AM
Thanks for the advice trick. No you wouldn’t limit your render (that would be nuts), you would simply have an additional output option (CMYK with embedded profile), just as you have all the other outputs. I mean the option to render 24bit doesn’t limit your option to render HDRI.

Chuck
04-21-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by ackees
Thanks chuck. I do wish someone had told me that the query had gone to the ‘wrong department’ rather than simply ignoring it, how many emails like this do tec support dump? Surely you can set up an email script that (with the click of a button) will inform the sender?

Apologies, I should also have mentioned that you should in fact have gotten a response - I've checked with the manager of Tech Support on a couple of recent reports of delayed responses, and he confirms that tech staff is experiencing a backlog. When you do not receive a response in timely fashion, you can directly email the manager, John Fletcher, at [email protected] and request that he expedite a reply for you.

policarpo
04-21-2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by ackees
Thanks for the advice trick. No you wouldn’t limit your render (that would be nuts), you would simply have an additional output option (CMYK with embedded profile), just as you have all the other outputs. I mean the option to render 24bit doesn’t limit your option to render HDRI.

You should just spend this much effort learning and becoming adept at Photoshop as you are wishing for CMYK support in LW. Keep on wishing, but realize that this request is probably at the bottom of the to-do list ya know. RGB is king in the Digital Content Creation arena and has been ingrained in all of us since school and the C64 days, and just accepting this will save you some personal grief. Why try to cut down the tree with a single handed axe, when you can just go around the bloody thing? Trust me. Every printer uses Photoshop, so why mess with the standard since new technologies are the ones which take the longest to be adopted by printers. Printers despise change...it mucks with their perfect printing techniques. :)

LightWave works perfectly as it is for rendering for print. Photoshop fixes any limitations you might encounter. Photoshop is your 20/20 hindsight tool.

Learn to exploit your camera, learn to exploit LightWave, and learn to master Photoshop. You will be a better creator for it. :D

ackees
04-22-2003, 02:29 AM
Thanks Chuch. This enquiry was posted several weeks ago, if you have a client breathing down our neck you cannot wait weeks. The thing is there was no response not even a FormMail. If the enquiry goes to the wrong place then just advise. The worst thing is no response because I then think the email system is not working and then ring tec blocking the phone line when it could have been used for a more complex problem.
Sorry Policarpo but you have missed the point, of course you use photoshop and of course you continue with RGB in LW, what I am talking about is an improvement of the LW to photoshop process for print. By having an option to control the gamut in LW you can improve the output for print. Think of it like this: your option to create a cube in LW does not limit your option to create a sphere, your option to create red does not limit your option to create blue, likewise your option to output CMYK with profile will not limit your option to use and output RGB or anything else. I actually know photoshop very well, and I know it’s limitations.

trick
04-22-2003, 03:45 AM
Ackees,

Since you're an expert, let's talk technical.

In the attached file you can see that in some places CMYK range exceeds RGB range (deep blues and greens). Those colors, which you CAN see on screen will NOT appear on paper, so there it would be useful to have some warning in Lightwave.

In one of your previous replies you say you see color banding in your yellow glows. If you look in the diagram, you'll see this is impossible without seeing this first on screen, since the CMYK range is deeper there then the RGB range. In this case it is even better to do your CMYK conversion in PhotoShop because you can push the glow in post so it extends the visible range, which results in even better gradients on paper then you can see on screen.

trick
04-22-2003, 04:11 AM
AGAIN

Ackees,

Since you're an expert, let's talk technical.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~trick/gamuts.jpg

In the attached file you can see that in some places CMYK range exceeds RGB range (deep blues and greens). Those colors, which you CAN see on screen will NOT appear on paper, so there it would be useful to have some warning in Lightwave.

In one of your previous replies you say you see color banding in your yellow glows. If you look in the diagram, you'll see this is impossible without seeing this first on screen, since the CMYK range is deeper there then the RGB range. In this case it is even better to do your CMYK conversion in PhotoShop because you can push the glow in post so it exceeds the visible range, which results in even better gradients on paper then you can see on screen.

ackees
04-22-2003, 05:02 AM
Trick, you’ve hit the nail on the head, some kind of warning is what we need (an option for those who need it), most of the time everything will be just fine, but sometimes one of the colours will go crazy when converted and this can be a nightmare however good your photoshop skills are. No one wants to be really concerned with the arcane technicalities of colour gamut, just as most people are not too interested in the cryptic machine code that drives LW, what you want is a way to control outputs for the various demands of professional practice, and one of those is print. Theory is one thing (luminance is the usual culprit not hue), but there are innumerable ways in which colours can mix and change, I wouldn’t have the knowledge to explain why a colour changes unexpectedly when it mixes with another, but what I would like is the option to adapt a troublesome area of an image in LW if I need to (and this feature should not interfere with those who do not care). There was also a time when many 3d artist (and applications) ignored the fact that television had illegal colours, beautiful images would be rendered that looked awful on TV, now most apps have a control and most 3d artist are aware of the problem.

trick
04-22-2003, 07:29 AM
Ackees,

I agree it would be helpful for many people when they can see illegal color ranges in Lightwave. I'm just afraid that if they do so, they will fail to do the whole theory for getting perfect prints in specialized programs. Getting warnings is just not good enough. On the one side these warning tell you to stay out of certain RGB regions. On the other side there are also CMYK regions that can NOT be covered with viewable RGB. It's up to your knowledge what you want to do with it: are you going to push some gradients further outside the valid RGB regions or is that what you see on screen acceptable.

To get a beautiful glow around a hilight on paper you should start from the red/orange region to the centre white. Afterwards you can push these orange/red colours to get even better glow/gradients. If you start in the yellow/green areas you will certainly get colorbanding.

As for luminance: it's just another value perpendicular on the plane shown above creating 3D diagrams with the same restrictions. I know these diagrams as if I was born in them. I think the only thing 3D-Pro's need to know is to watch out for the dark green and blue areas, possible with some kind of tool inside the programs they work with. The rest is better solved in specialised image editors. You will not want real CMYK profiling and checking for all incoming and outgoing images: even PShoppers postpone this as long as possible because of larger filesizes (memory !!).

ackees
04-22-2003, 08:44 AM
Thanks Trick for the great advice, much appreciated. Knowledge is king, better to know and be wise to it than know nothing. As I trod through the dark woods of print I want to know before the wolf of bad gamut pounces. When I go to photoshop I want to change as little as possible so that I can get back to LW.