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robewil
04-07-2003, 04:08 PM
Well, I've now heard the NAB "VT" demonstration twice and I am truly disappointed.

This is the first year in a while that I am not attending NAB. My memories of previous trips were of walking the exhibit floor and stopping at booths of companies that boasted products I was interested in (mostly video editing and animation) and always getting the standard "attractive woman with the pleasant voice using a rehearsed spiel of their new and revolutionary product." It was so prevalent that I always assumed there was some place in Las Vegas where you could rent these women because after hearing 3 or 4 of them, they start all sounding the same. Then I would come across the Newtek booth and experience something completely different.

Not this year. Newtek has seemingly finally fallen prey to the mentality that they must be like everybody else. It's obvious that the woman trying to hype the VT (It's no longer the Video Toaster by the way, more on that later.) has never used the product nor produced animation or video in her life. Her speech is passionless and obviously rehearsed (not very well by the way, she keeps stumbling over her words). This is a complete contrast to the Don and Ralph show where the presenters obviously new the product inside and out and were passionate about it. They brought an energy to the show and even if some people hated their spiel, it gave Newtek a unique presence at NAB. To Newtek I say that if the Don and Ralph show was getting old, and maybe it was, you could still have changed the presentation without just becoming another blah company at NAB.

For the same reason, I'm not pleased with Newtek losing the "Toaster" in the product name. "Toaster" reflects the colorful heritage of the product that again, was unique and reflected the creativity of Newtek.

Rich Deustachio
04-07-2003, 04:14 PM
I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the presentation woman. They must have a presentation woman cloning machine over there in Vegas. The Don and Ralph show, even though it was structured to a point, gave viewers pleanty of information about the product. If this canned featurless presentation is all they are going to stream, I think they are wasting their money.

Gordon
04-07-2003, 04:26 PM
Although I loved the Amiga Toaster and we used it for years, when I tell people I sell the Video Toaster, they are not interested in hearing anything more. I try and explain to them that it is a different product altogether but it too late, they already think they know. It is then twice as hard to setup a demo of the new VT[2] because I'm fighting a prejudice, of old, slow, was good back then but not today, proprieteiry technology ported to Windows, kind of thinking.

Other dealers experience exactly the same thing. True for 1/20 of the people we talk to and have used the original 'Toaster'- it is an open door but the other 95% of the people we talk to - its a roadblock. The Amiga community knows full well about the new VT[2] now and now it's time to broaden to a new market. Drop the 'appliance' name, (Toaster, Kitchen Sync, etc.) and give it a new name.

Unfortunately, various birds of prey and carnivous animal names are wearing thin now too, but short acronyms are always in style.

robewil
04-07-2003, 04:44 PM
Gordon,

I respectfully disagree. I, too, was a dealer for the Amiga Video Toaster and Flyer and I dealt with the mentality you wrote about and like you, got frustrated that some potential customers were lost over a trivial thing such as the name.

But, as I found out, that really wasn't true. The dealership I was with started selling Media 100. With that system, I found similar objections such as "it only works on a Macintosh", often,from the same customers who wouldn't consider a Toaster because "It was only for the Amiga" or "That's a stupid name". I realized that some customers are already set on what they want and will use whatever lame excuse to not look at something else, ofter for the reason that since they already have their minds made up, they don't want to hear about another product that will confuse the issue.

"Video Toaster" is a recognizable name in the industry. Even if some people have a negative perception of it from the past, most will realize that it has matured. If they will stick to their prejudices, they probably would not be good customers anyways.

tmon
04-12-2003, 12:47 PM
The new incarnations of the NewTek "Studio in a Box" are such a significant step forward in the vision of Tim Jennison that I think a name change is warranted. JMHO. I usually sense a "disconnect" of sorts as soon as I say "Toaster," to clients and have had more success with something like,
"This new D1 Uncompressed system by NewTek."

I thought the individual workstation pods were good for allowing people to really get a closeup view of the VT[3] build. As a user of T[2], I was able to go straight after questions like, "Does the spline editor work for audio as well?" Or, "Where's the 'text hierachy' view in CG?" All of the vendors I talked to that were helping out said that they got a lot more leads this year, which means, hopefully, more sales, resulting in, ultimately more R&D, as well as marketing.

Around the pods, I wish there was a bit more room to maneuver. It got crowed as soon as more than three people hovered around any single workstation except the outer ones (maybe Paul should have moved to one of the outer workstations, as he seemed to be getting the biggest crowds). Also, I missed seeing Aura demonstrated more...what was that about?

The stage presentation was more like a small brochure, only good for a "single reading."

A combination of Don and Ralph with the more intimate "workstation" setup would be my ideal NAB booth.

I.e., a bolder, improvisational dog and pony show combined with a "close the deal" approach.

If the show increased sales, then I'm happy.

robewil
04-12-2003, 02:10 PM
My original post was after day one of NAB and now that I've heard all 4 days of it, my opinion is slightly different.

First of all, I'll concede that the name change is beneficial. I had no problems with the name "Toaster" and thought it a rather unique product name. However, from what I'm reading in this and other forums, I guess I'm in the minority here and I certainly know how effective first impressions are. So if the name "VT" will sell more product, I'm all for it.

The web stream from Tuesday through Thursday showed more of the demonstrations at the "pods" than the first day and I thought these were very well done. I'm very impressed, especially with Paul Lara's knowledge and ability to really show why the VT is such a great product. He fielded every question thrown at him with direct answers. He is obviously not a marketing guy or a politician, there was no bull in his responses. He even handled the occasional crash with grace and aplomb.

I still maintain, however, that the "rent a face/voice" woman has got to go. It cheapened the whole effort.

SBowie
04-12-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by robewil

So if the name "VT" will sell more product, I'm all for it. Not surprisingly, this same discussion is going on in the VTNT list at yahoogroups today. I agree that "Toaster," as much as it means to us, is on balance more detrimental than beneficial.

Still, I prefer to use the even shorter nick, T[3]. The latter falls more easily off the tongue, sounding both 'cleaner' and 'stronger' to me. It also reminds me of the Terminator movies, not a bad image to invoke for a killer system...

robewil
04-12-2003, 02:26 PM
I don't know. What if T3 comes out this summer and is a total dog?

Dan Hong
04-12-2003, 03:46 PM
I've got to say that, as someone who spent 3 days demoing in the booth, the new direction seems right to me. You'd think that with a product called VT[3] by NewTek, most people would naturally get the Video Toaster connection, but you'd be surprised at how many people would ask (especially after talking about Lightwave being included) if this was the same NewTek produced the "Video Toaster". You'd also be surprised at how many times I've talked to someone on the phone, trying to arrange a demo, and got "Oh, the Video Toaster, that's OK, we already have a PROFESSIONAL editing system."
I agree that we should build on the equity of having sold so many of the original units, and having managed to stay in business for over 15 years, even with the demise of the host computer. If VT[3] is what it takes to get people to sit down and see the most amazing technology available, I'll go with that.

bbeanan
04-12-2003, 04:11 PM
I would have to agree... every time I tell someone I have a Video Toaster 2 system here is the conversation...
"oh a toaster... isn't that the one that runs on the old Amiga system"
To which I follow up with... "well that was the original system, my runs on a Windows 2000 system and is right up there (if not above) and Avid system"
"Yea but it's the same system right??"
"No it's really a great system with many features not found in any other system, like live video switching of up to 24 sources, a full NLE, CG, 3D animation, and a ton of other features"
"Well I'm sure it works out for you, but I will stick with the professional gear like Avid or Final Cut Pro"

What I think really needs to happen is a new name and logo and put the "Toaster" behind us.... or maybe how about naming it

"Avid Toaster" putting an Avid in it's place :D

RomainR
04-12-2003, 06:51 PM
Long live VT[3],

If you think it is hard to get someone to look at a demo, try to get a client to come in for editing.

Standard phone conversation:

Potential client: "Hello I'm calling to see if your available on ?? day(s)..."

Me: "I've got some opennings for those days. Come on over..."

P.C.: "Here what I'd like to get done, bla bla bla bla bla bla, for a 20 min total for the final product. I figured it should take three days..."

Me: " No problem. I can even have it all done in two days."

P.C.: " That would be great, we're kind of in a rush with that. I had another question, which avid system do you use?"

Me: "We don't edit on avid, we got much better and faster technology."

P.C.: " Really. What do you use?"

Me: "We use Toaster[2]"

At this point I either get "What's that?" or "Oh that's nice" followed by "I'll get back to you to comfirm the dates..."

Needless to say I never hear from them again.

On the brighter side of life. I do get last minute clients,whom after having been turned down by their regular avid editing house because they were to busy or couldn't squeeze them in because it would take to long. They get here and say we needed this yesterday and have to send it out tomorrow. They sit and watch me work. They never went back to the avid guys. They are always amazed at the speed and great image quality they get.

So to make this short Yes for the name change. But once you get them hooked and they're asking for more, just then when they are ripe for the picking. Tell them that they've benn TOASTERED.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
:D

ted
04-13-2003, 12:22 AM
Friday, I had a regular "Creative Director" in the edit bay.
I used the Toaster for this project due to it's real time Chroma Keying in TEd. (Normally I use my "other" systems).

This guy has never liked the fact that we don't have AVID's or FCP, but the Agency loves us and we've always gotten them what they want and in a timely fashion.

After watching how quickly we cut the spot and how easily we handled his changes, he was BRAGGING to the Agency about our new equipment and everything it did.

When he enquired about the "Old Toaster", I just explained to him that NewTek made the original Desktop editor!
After Amiga went under, they just had to wait for a fast enough computer to handle their product.
Once VT3 comes out with Batch and that great keyframe editor, I'll be wowing this guy all the time.

This isn't your Fathers Toaster. (or in my case, the one I was used to)

Paul Lara
04-13-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by ted
This isn't your Fathers Toaster. (or in my case, the one I was used to)

Hey, Ted, who's the cowboy on your back? :D

rsullivan
04-13-2003, 04:04 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bbeanan
quote: .... or maybe how about naming it
"Avid Toaster" putting an Avid in it's place

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I call mine AVIDeo Toaster ;)

toasterhombre
04-13-2003, 07:17 PM
Well, one of the big problems is not so much that producers etc do not want to edit on a Toaster but that they now ask for Avid and FCP by name.

I will still have to explain what system I use, and that it is just as "Revolutionary" as the original Toaster was.

Now the same hardware has changed names a few times. 10x in beta, Frame Factory, Video Toaster NT, Video Toaster and now VT3. My favorite is still a name that came up before Frame Factory.

Frame Thrower! Think of all the cool logo treatments one could do.

ted
04-13-2003, 10:12 PM
Paul, about 5 seconds after that picture was taken, that Bull literally WAS on my back-side. It ripped both legs off my Wranglers. I still have the pants to remind me to NEVER do that again!:eek:

toasterhombre
04-13-2003, 10:54 PM
he he he he.....friday night I was still in Vegas so I walked to the Frontier, ate some fajitas and then headed to Gilleys. I don't mind country music and it was a lot like being back in san antonio.

The main reason I went was the billboard outside touting Bikini Bull Riding!!! The idea of hot chicks riding a mechanical bull was compelling enough to get me to go!

The girls were not that hot, but the band was decent and there was a lively crowd etc.

Hiraghm
04-22-2003, 09:16 PM
For me it's deja vu all over again. Once again Newtek (hi there Tim Jenison) is embarassed to be associated with the Amiga.

Look, y'all wanna give me back the money I paid for Lightwave and send me to go get 3DS Max? Because I didn't buy LW because someone HID the fact it was originally an Amiga product.
About 15 months ago, I was set and decided on buying 3D Studio Max. I came to the Newtek website for the first time... ever. Why? Because I had remembered my Amiga days, and before I plunked down the cost of 3DS Max, I wanted to see if I could get a Toaster instead for about the same amount. Not a VT, not a Avid, whatever the heck that is, but a VIDEO TOASTER. I came into the fora, talked to some people, did some research, and discovered that Lightwave was better than Max from my point of view. Since I was oriented toward 3D, and knew that, in some way I never did get clearly defined, LW in the Toaster wasn't as full-featured as the standalone, the decision went from Toaster vs Max to Toaster vs LW standalone. LW won, and here I am. And all this in spite of the 10-year grudge I held against Newtek for hiding their association with Amiga.

I dunno about all these potential sales that association with the Amiga cost Newtek, but here's one sale that the Amiga definitely gave to Newtek.

I don't care if they call it "Windows LMNOP"; in any context in which I'm involved, all future versions of the Video Toaster will remain Video Toaster.

And yes, hearing this nonsense annoys me all over again. VT as an acronym is one one thing. Replacing a name as applicable as "Avid" with an acronym is another. Maybe if you slapped "Pro" on the end, people would be convinced it's professional. Maybe they should call it "The Video Edit System Formerly Known as Toaster" and have it advertised by The Artist Formerly Known as Prince...

"The Newtek ProPro Professional Video Editing System, for Professionals with more money than brains." Or you could call it "the Newtek Editing System"; the more expensive version could be the "Superior Newtek Editing System", (it would be superior by having a higher price tag and aluminum foil nameplate on the documentation...) then people could give it the acronym "SNES". That'd convince em it was professional, huh? Or better, forget the words altogether. Just call it the Newtek "64" (since 64 is one of those magical computer numbers) and watch it catch the acronym "N64".

The name isn't costing it sales anymore than the name "Amiga" cost Commodore sales. Commodore's management and marketting are what cost Commodore sales. If Apple can sell computers called "Macintosh", I don't think Newtek should worry about a video edit system called "Toaster". At least when Newtek distanced themselves from the Amiga, they had the excuse that they couldn't control Commodore's inept marketting and management. They certainly don't have that excuse now.

On a lighter note, somebody please ask Tim Jenison when they're coming out with that jelly-jet printer they promised. It's been over a decade and I'm still waiting....;)

PS - almost forgot. Before you go clucking your tongue at Newtek for copying the other booths and having a female spokesman, try to remember Laura "Maxine Headroom" Longfellow and Kiki Stockhammer... found at Newtek booths at Amiexpo and other shows roughly a decade ago.

ted
04-22-2003, 11:18 PM
For me, it's not a big deal. I have regular clients that come to me because they know I can accomplish whatever they need, in a timely manor. And I take very good care of them.

After demonstrating how the New "Toaster" can do some fantastic things, they didn't care what it was called. Many have gone out in the community and bragged how cool my New "Toaster" is.

But I can understand others going after new clients, when they hear you have a "Toaster"???
There is a branding predjudice that's a reality for those selling themselves.

I think NewTek will listen to their customers. And do what they feel they need to do, to sell more systems.

No matter what it's called, I'm sticking with it for a long, long time!:cool:

Paul Lara
04-23-2003, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
Once again Newtek is embarassed to be associated with the Amiga.

...The name isn't costing it sales anymore than the name "Amiga" cost Commodore sales.

We're not associated with the Amiga; what made you think we were? Amiga has been dessicating in its corporate grave for years now, Hiragm. You must have conducted a different marketing survey than we did, because we came to a different conclusion, but it had nothing to do with its Amiga heritage.

NewTek will never dismiss it's original Amiga roots, as witnessed on The Video Toaster page (http://www.newtek.com/products/videotoaster/info/index.html) where we introduce our current product. We are proud of where we've been. The problem is that too many potential customers think we're still there.

SBowie
04-23-2003, 07:06 AM
You've got to admit, though, "the video editing system formerly known as the toaster" has got kind of a ring ...

Trouble is, it's really an all-new edit system, and deserves to be set apart not only from predecessors, but from the 'crowd.'

Personally, I'm sticking with the nickname "T[3]" (which slips more easily off the tongue than "VT[3]" and - being shorter - sounds stronger) ... until such time as we stumble on something really apropros, a killer name that truly suits a killer product. Something that conveys the the same mental image as an Abrams Main Battle Tank (with one track posed jauntily on top of a T-72)

Gordon
04-23-2003, 07:44 AM
Personally, I'm sticking with the nickname "T[3]"

I like it too! If there is any name association it would be with Arnie, (Terminator[3]). We could even change the name from VT[3] to 'Terminator[3]'.

SBowie
04-23-2003, 10:00 AM
Yeah, I suggested that back before T[2], but I suppose you wouldn't wan't Arnie coming after you for copyright infringement :-p

CGPlanet
04-23-2003, 07:00 PM
All of you seem to have some great ideas. If people are that worried about the original Video Toaster then use
"Television Studio in a Box" "Studio Box" "D1 Studio", but I remember hearing about VT2 making more sales than Lightwave at one point in time, I do not know the numbers, but that is interesting. I believe Newtek still has a very bright future in sales, development, and giving us some great tools.

A new marketing strategy can always say, "What it was" Video Toaster "What it is" Video Toaster XP. I am sure all of you know that if you can just get your client in the door, you will dazzle them bigtime. Heck get an avid (not) just to get them in the door, offer them an inhouse demo of how you do your work in Video Toaster, show them how good you are, how quick you are, cut some video, and see what they say. Then tell them how much you charge. Find some good sales gimmick to use, be competative.

Heck the VT2 is great, it is quick, and if you deal with video it will do the job.

D

Hiraghm
04-23-2003, 08:04 PM
We're not associated with the Amiga; what made you think we were?
I never thought you were associated with the Amiga, Newtek made that clear a decade ago. But what I said was..


Once again Newtek is embarassed to be associated with the Amiga.


To be associated with as in customers making that connection.


We are proud of where we've been. The problem is that too many potential customers think we're still there.

Exactly. But your position makes no sense. The Video Toaster a decade ago was an impressive product. You think IBM worries that people still think of them as making vaccuum tube-based computers? If you were going to rename it to kill the association, the time to do that was when you came out with the PC version. Why didn't you? Because at that time association with the Amiga would grant you sales, as you scooped up former Amiga Toaster users.
I notice Newtek didn't dump the "Newtek" moniker for fear potential customers would think that you were the same Newtek from a decade ago.


Amiga has been dessicating in its corporate grave for years now, Hiragm.

uhh.. actually that's not the case. Commodore has been dessicating in its corporate grave for years now. Amiga as a corporation was formed just a few years ago, and is responsible for the pseudo-Amiga (Amiga-One.) http://www.amiga.de/
The Amiga was a computer. The Video Toaster was associated with the Amiga (purely by the coincidence of requiring an Amiga in order to function...) If you're so proud of your past, you'd promote it, not shun it.

I would think that the "3" after Video Toaster would give the idea that this was a new and updated version of the product, especially when the advertising mentions the PC.

Careful of targetting that dummy crowd; they'll mean more customer support in the long run as you explain to them how using their coffee cup holder couldn't possibly affect their render times...

Hmm... product not selling... blame the logo, not the salesmen... sounds real familiar... about like CBM. And if the product is selling, why mess with it? (that sounds like CBM, too.)

Call it what y'all want. But only the "Video Toaster" and "Lightwave" will get any word-of-mouth promotion from me.

Paul Lara
04-23-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
...only the "Video Toaster" and "Lightwave" will get any word-of-mouth promotion from me.

That's fair.

robewil
04-23-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
PS - almost forgot. Before you go clucking your tongue at Newtek for copying the other booths and having a female spokesman, try to remember Laura "Maxine Headroom" Longfellow and Kiki Stockhammer... found at Newtek booths at Amiexpo and other shows roughly a decade ago.

Yes, I very much remember the two previous lady spokespeople of Newtek. My history with Newtek dates back to the 1986 demo slideshow of Digiview images that came out many months before Digiview.

Laura and Kike were Newtek employees and it was obvious. They both knew their products and how to promote them. I'll bet the lady at NAB was, as I have been saying all along, a rental. I bet Laura and Kike would be insulted by any comparison.

Brian Peterson
04-24-2003, 11:04 AM
Hiraghm, you are mixing your analogies:


You think IBM worries that people still think of them as making vaccuum tube-based computers?

Please show me where the IBM named computer is? In fact show me where IBM is still using their original computer's name to name a modern day product. They aren't! In fact I doubt that the product names IBM is using for a lot of their products are no more than 10 years old in the consumer market.

You anology fit more to the fact that Newtek would be changing their company name to something else. BTW in fact did change their name IBM at one time was International Business Machine.

And why do you find it so irritating that Newtek is trying to divorce themselves from the Amiga stigma that the original Toaster/Flyer became entangled in? You don't even own a VTNT or a T2! Lightwave is a stand alone application.

As a owner of a T2 and a former owner of an Amiga T/F I want Newtek to do what is right and makes them stronger because I will benefit from that. I argued when VTNT shipped that they needed to divorce themselves from the Toaster, and now they are. You may like the name Toaster, but frankly there are a lot of people, even in my little backwards area that don't believe in it, look down upon it and refuse to even view a demo of anything named Toaster. I see this move the best thing Newtek can do from a marketing standpoint, and even then think they can go farther and just call it T3.

Products change name all the time, it's not the past that needs addressed, its the future and the continued survival of a fantastic product. Amiga is dead, no matter what that thing over on Amiga.com calls itself, and it's death put a blight on a fantastic piece of equipment. I applaude Newtek for taking the steps necessary to bring their technology to the masses who still remember Amiga is dead. For those of us who have used the T/F and then the VTNT and now the T2, we know it's not the same piece of equipment. And there is no trickery involved in the name change, T3 is nothing like, except at a very basic level of being a NLE program, the original T/F and thank god for that!

Chuck
04-24-2003, 11:28 AM
Hi, Jim!

We do promote the fact that that we launched the desktop video revolution with the Emmy®-winning Amiga-based original Video Toaster® more than a dozen years ago, and that we have over fifteen years as a cutting edge video and graphics developer - just as much as is appropriate and enhances rather than distracts from promotion of our current slate of products. Distracting from the present with too much ballyhoo about the past would be counterproductive for us with the overwhelming majority of potential customers. Being proud of our past is fine. Appearing to live in our past is not.

Pop up top there in your browser window and use the About Us drop down to peruse Background, and you'll find that we discuss our background in reasonable depth and that includes specific mention of Amiga. This information is also included in our Press Kit file, which press sources may download and which we include in our Press folders at major shows.

We've had a variety of products with a variety of names, and odd as it may seem we do reserve the right to name and market our products as seems best to us. We're going to have a much more diverse line of video production products in the future, and that will include a product called Video Toaster®, but there will be others with different names as well. Should Ford have never named a car anything other than "Model T" after the astounding success of that first commercial model dedicated to being a car that everyone, including his factory workers, could afford? Is it reprehensible that there is no "Model T" in their current line-up?

Our decision on naming is not based on how we feel about the name Video Toaster - we're proud of it! - but about resistance in the professional production marketplace that there appears to be no way to overcome but by giving our new broadcast production suite a new name as well. As groundbreaking as it was, there were elements of the original Video Toaster, such as pixelized DVEs, that production professionals tend to remember and to thus associate the name with a set of limitations. Historical experience shows that such associations are extremely difficult and often just plain impossible to overcome even with a virtually unlimited marketing budget, which we most certainly don't have.

"Macintosh" was never associated with any such limitations, in the computer world, but was at every point in its history seen as state-of-the-art and mainstream. As for the notion of Commodore needing to overcome anything to do with the name Amiga, the reverse may be case - the Amiga may well have been limited due to being associated with the Commodore name. I worked in a computer store before I came on board with NewTek, and though PC's were our bread and butter the owner (and the entire staff for that matter) was a major fan of the Amiga, and used to say, "If the Amiga had come out with IBM on the label, it would have become the standard and we'd all be lot happier."

vanguard
04-24-2003, 01:02 PM
Ahh, set the way-back machine for the mid-80s...

Caller: blah blah blah, and you DO shoot on Ikegami HL-79s, right?

My Boss: No, we have better cameras than that.

Caller: Really what kind?

My Boss: HL-80s (or whatever, we used Sharp plumbicons...)

Caller: Wow, when did they come out with that.

My Boss: Last month, we're really on the cutting edge.


And the early 90s....

Caller: blah blah blah, and I need a Betacam package on blah blah blah?

Me: I'm sorry we stopped using inferior tape formats last year.

Caller: Whats better than Betacam?

Me: MII, NBC's new tape format.... (It really is better too...)

Caller: Wow, when did they come out with that.

Me: Last month, we're really on the cutting edge.


Insert Avid in any of these scenarios and the VT....

It's like Kleenex, or Xerox, or any of a hundred things we forget has a brand name.

So when people ask if we have (or what kind of) an Avid system in our plant, we say we stopped using inferior editors a long time ago.

We have the VT2 (soon 3), the best NLE available in the area.

(insert list of superior features here)

Client: Oooh....

Me: Cha-ching....

Hiraghm
04-24-2003, 05:30 PM
Brian (if I may call you Brian,)

IBM has been "IBM" for at least 20 years. "Thinkpad" has been the name of their line of notebooks for a decade.

If the VT[3] is a truly different product than the Video Toaster PC, then absolutely, I agree with giving it a new name... but a completely different name. VT[3] sounds like fence-straddling. "This is new, but it's not too new."

And, no, I don't yet own a Video Toaster (though I surf e-bay regularly, and force myself to bypass Amiga Toaster auctions....)

yet.

Paul Lara, as much as we seem to cross here, is responsible for whatever degree of "brand loyalty" I feel toward Newtek (he and I know why, and you don't need to...) If/when I can justify the outlay (ie, when my graphics work brings enough income), I'll be buying a Video Toaster 3, even if they call it "The Microsoft Video Edit Suite for Anything but Amiga Computers." and put a picture of Bill Gates on the box. Because I know I'll get good customer support, and a quality product. The quality of Newtek's products and support has never been in question in my mind.
As I said in my previous message, the debate for me came down to a Toaster or Lightwave.

Hi Chuck!

Wasn't suggesting Commodore had to escape the Amiga; Amiga was tarnished by CBM. Oh, and there was a period when Mac was viewed as extinct just prior to Jobs coming back to Apple, IIRC. And I encounter people all the time who don't take Macintosh seriously. In the 80s the Mac wasn't considered mainstream; it was considered a yuppie toy.

When I want a pickup, I look for a Ford F-150. My dad had a 1965 and a 1966 F-150 when I was a youngster. You can buy new Ford F-150s today. Sure, Ford should have called different models by different names. But it would have been dumb of them to call the Model "A" the Model "T2". The model A was completely different from the Model T. A model T enhanced with technical advances like radial tires and a radio is still a model T and might deserve a model T2 designation. But a Ford Mustang with cruise control, bucket seats, automatic transmission, fuel injection (the 1931 model A had to be backed up hills... gravity fed fuel system... bit of trivia,) disc brakes, that's a different beast altogether and would be absurd as the Model T2. Again, the time to change the name was when the PC Toaster came out.


We're going to have a much more diverse line of video production products in the future, and that will include a product called Video Toaster®, but there will be others with different names as well.

Now this is a different kettle of fish, and more akin to what I'm talking about. But VT[3] is still too close to Video Toaster to make sense, if the above quote is the case. What's the first thing a customer will ask? "What's VT stand for?" If you tell them "Video Toaster", then your worry comes back into play. If you tell them "nothing", they'll think it a marketting ploy.


Our decision on naming is not based on how we feel about the name Video Toaster - we're proud of it! - but about resistance in the professional production marketplace that there appears to be no way to overcome but by giving our new broadcast production suite a new name as well.

This contradicts what you said before. Either you're changing names as part of the creation of new and diverse product lines, or you're doing it to disassociate Newtek from its past.

robewil
04-24-2003, 05:55 PM
I feel it's a bad idea to embed the version number into a product name. Since the objection in keeping the name "Toaster" in the product is based upon public perceptions, then, the same argument would apply to VT3 or T3.

Believe me, if you state you have a VT3, eventually, someone is going to say, "Well, you're competition is using FCP4." (or Premiere 6 or Avid 11) "so I guess you're behind the times."

Digital products are complicated and most people don't want to bother with the complications. People have tendency to oversimplify the technology in their heads. I commonly hear overly simplistic and inaccurate comments such as:

"The way you can tell how fast a computer is by checking the megahertz."

"A computer consists of the monitor, keyboard, mouse, and the hard drive."

"The digital camera with the most megapixels is best."

...and

"The higher the software's version number, the more advanced the product is."

That's right Notepad 5.0 is better than Wordperfect 4.2 or even Lightwave 4.0." :D


Let's think of a real new name please.

Ahmed
04-24-2003, 06:57 PM
When a potential customer mentions that he/she used the Amiga before, they get a further discount and lunch on me before they buy anything. The mere mention of the Amiga, makes proud of my past. Commodore screwed the Amiga, but I never cared about them. Many of the great software around for both the PC and the Mac started on the Amiga, or developed by ex-Amiga programmers. 3D Studio (not great though), originally developed by Dan Silva and someone else both we the developers of Deluxe Paint. I asked one of the main programmer of Digitla Fusion why his software is faster the After Effects, he said that they had better experience with multithreading because of their experiece as Amiga software developers.

With regards to the name change to VT[3], from a marketing point of view, it is long over due, I personally think it should have been done with the first release of the PC Toaster. As important as marketing and hype, the product should ALWAYS be better than expected, it delivers more value for the money you pay for.

Chuck
04-24-2003, 08:07 PM
Hi, Jim!

You and I appear to have lived in different universes for the last couple of decades, and I'm going to stick with my experience, my understanding, and my interpretation. That includes the fact that the Mac was indeed regarded as mainstream, especially in several specific vertical markets. Yes, I am aware some folks who favored other platforms put the Mac down. Lots of folks put the Amiga down as a toy as well. That doesn't mean they were right or that their opinions should be quoted as though they were the sum of things. They weren't.

Also, folks are allowed any number of reasons for why they make changes. Multiple reasons can most certainly co-exist and are not contradictory, rather they are cumulative. You are certainly entitled to feel that we made a mistake not changing the name at the 1.0 release. As for whether if we change, we need to change further away than we have so far, well, that's a factor that's certainly under consideration. Stay Tuned.

ted
04-24-2003, 09:15 PM
Chuck, NewTek,
Feel free to do as you see fit. We'll all be there no matter what it's called. If you feel it's necessary to add a new nameplate to the product, or new level of product, I trust it's because you're aware of your current and "FUTURE" customer base.

If I was smarter then NewTek, I'd be building my own edit system. But since I'm not, (and I trust NewTek), I'll be using whatever they build, no matter what it's called!:)

Hiraghm
04-24-2003, 11:00 PM
Hi Chuck!

When I say "yuppie toy" the emphasis is on "yuppie". Of course I tended to hang out with tech types. Mainstream in the 80s was Apple II and MSDOS (and technically the C64 if you go by units sold, but I'm going by perception...) and in the 90s it was MSDOS and Windows. Yes, Mac was considered mainstream in vertical markets... but vertical markets aren't mainstream. Mac was DTP. C64 was games. PC was business. Apple II was school. Macs were considered expensive, Mac software was considered expensive, and therefore Macs were considered status-symbols (at a time when status-symbols were "in".) Amigas, most places I went where they used other systems, where considered graphics workstations, game systems, or (most often) "techie toys", kind of like Linux is today.

I wasn't putting the Mac down by calling it a "yuppie toy", just describing its niche as I experienced it.

Maybe most folks are allowed mulitple reasons for why they make changes, but not Newtek! No! You guys get ONE reason, and you used it up! :D
I'm teasing of course. It's late, I'm tired, and I've got 25+ bones to assign weightmaps to before I hit the sack.

Any info you can share regarding what will acquire the Video Toaster name would be welcome.

Oh, and I guess I can rest assured there won't be a Newtek product for this pseudo-Amiga One? :p

Paul Lara
04-25-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by robewil
Let's think of a real new name please.

Suggest away!

Paul Lara
04-25-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
...I guess I can rest assured there won't be a Newtek product for this pseudo-Amiga One? :p

I hear it's shipping...soon. :)

RomainR
04-25-2003, 07:53 AM
:eek:Oh the agony, the pain, the torment.

Paul, you big tease you.

You like torturing us poor feeble souls, now don't you.

Soon, soon, soon.

It must be so, if you says so.

Thank you for keeping us on our toes. :D

Chuck
04-25-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
Hi Chuck!

When I say "yuppie toy" the emphasis is on "yuppie". Of course I tended to hang out with tech types. Mainstream in the 80s was Apple II and MSDOS (and technically the C64 if you go by units sold, but I'm going by perception...) and in the 90s it was MSDOS and Windows. Yes, Mac was considered mainstream in vertical markets... but vertical markets aren't mainstream. Mac was DTP. C64 was games. PC was business. Apple II was school. Macs were considered expensive, Mac software was considered expensive, and therefore Macs were considered status-symbols (at a time when status-symbols were "in".) Amigas, most places I went where they used other systems, where considered graphics workstations, game systems, or (most often) "techie toys", kind of like Linux is today.

I wasn't putting the Mac down by calling it a "yuppie toy", just describing its niche as I experienced it.

Hi, Jim!

I was around a lot of publishing folks doing DTP with Macs - expensive, yes, but considered necessary for professional work (square pixels - gotta love 'em!). Graphics was another area where the Mac was heavily adopted, though custom graphics workstations were also going strong through the '80s and early '90s. I also saw a very quick changeover from the Apple models to Macs in the school systems I was acquainted with.

I also knew lots of folks using Macs at home - at times more than I knew that were using PCs. Lots of 64 and Atari folks as well, of course. (Ever have an Atari ST guy explain to you why it was so superior to the Amiga and how the Amiga really didn't multi-task, and multi-tasking was over-rated anyway?)

Wide adoption for a a variety of applications including home use is what I have in mind when I say that the Mac is mainstream and was certainly mainstream in the '80s, but I would also disgree that vertical markets are by necessity not mainstream. This may be because I think every use breaks down into a vertical.



Maybe most folks are allowed mulitple reasons for why they make changes, but not Newtek! No! You guys get ONE reason, and you used it up! :D

Doggone it! Worse luck for us! ;)




I'm teasing of course. It's late, I'm tired, and I've got 25+ bones to assign weightmaps to before I hit the sack.

That sounds like a heckuva project you've got going there!



Any info you can share regarding what will acquire the Video Toaster name would be welcome.

Any suggestions you might share on what you think would be an appropriate product spec would be welcome as well! :)



Oh, and I guess I can rest assured there won't be a Newtek product for this pseudo-Amiga One? :p

Doubtful, but on the other hand you never know what might happen around here - or when the Amiga is involved! ;)

jcupp
04-25-2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm

When I want a pickup, I look for a Ford F-150. My dad had a 1965 and a 1966 F-150 when I was a youngster. You can buy new Ford F-150s today. Sure, Ford should have called different models by different names.

I believe in 1966 Ford's pick up was an F100 not an F150. At least the one I drove in high school was. :D

Name ideas (brainstorming so don't laugh):

Itegral (kinda like this one)
divA (Avid spelled backwards!)
XR4ti (just kidding)
OmniSuite (Sounds like a room at an upscale hotel)
Dharma (the interdependance and oneness of all users)

robewil
04-25-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Paul Lara
Suggest away!


Okay. Here it goes!

Keeping the VT acronym

-Versatile Toolset

-Visual Toolset

-Vast Technology

-Vision Transfer (Transfer your vision to the screen?)

-Video TimeMachine


Okay, now non-VT names

-StudBox (Studio in a Box)

-MediaWave (Ties-in with Lightwave so you have a whole "wave" theme. Editwave, Switchwave, CGWave, etc.)

-Charisma (Seems like a good one-word name with a positive inference.)

-Quartet (A step up from a former competitive product based on three. :D )

-Sapphire (Another cool sounding one-word name)



I'll try to think of more.

Hiraghm
04-25-2003, 04:42 PM
Hi Chuck!

Oh, it'd be tough for me to suggest what a "video" toaster would have as capabilities... my orientation has always been computer generated graphics, that's why I went with LW rather than a Toaster. I'm looking forward to LW8, now, and if it does what I suspect it will, a lot of my wishes will be met. But I'll try to think of things I'd like, and will post them to the feature request fora.
Whatever ships in the future with the Video Toaster name, I hope it's accompanied by that long overdue Jelly-jet printer! :p


Yes, I've gotten into that argument with Atari ST users, Mac users and PC users. When Win95 came out, some PC users I knew tried to pretend that multitasking had just been invented.
I also remember when the Amiga was about to come out. We went into a computer store, and apparently they had just started carrying Macs. There were 5 or 6 of us, ready to plunk down the money that day to get an A1000. When we asked him about it, he sneered at us, almost literally. IIRC, he actually suggested the Amiga wasn't real, or if it was real it couldn't possibly do what was promised. Even if he was right, by sneering the stupid jerk cost himself 10 grand of potential Mac sales.
I knew a lot of Amiga developers who had to raise the price of their software to compete on the Mac market. If it didn't cost out the arse, Mac users wouldn't buy it.

The project's not such a major one, just another one for the portfolio. I'm trying to rig that computer guy (see avatar) of mine. I first rigged him when I created him months ago (before ACS4.) He had too many bones, and I'd assigned weightmaps to all of them, all wrong, and all with too wide an influence. So I deleted them and started over. I've got one bone left to get working right (his spine is twisting his head) and this discussion we've had gave me an idea for a great anim to showcase him with.

Speaking of which, while I have your attention, what are the rules and requirements for me to use Newtek trademarks and such on my website? In my banner I've got a character from my Oct contest, and he has the Newtek logo on his ship; I also plan on having the full animation in my gallery. Do I have to redo it all and erase the Newtek logo, or is there some kind of copyright I can post?


Jcupp, you're right, the 65/66 Fords were F-100s. There have been about 5 or 6 F-150s since then that we've owned through the 70s-80s-90s.

Hiraghm
04-26-2003, 10:23 AM
I was just posting a question in the LW community section, and stumbled upon a new name for the Toaster. ...


Videoscape

Yes, I know, you'll have to get copyright permission from Alan Hastings, but it's so perfect. It describes the "all-inclusive" nature of the VT[3], it's still linked with the Amiga for those fanatics like myself who remember such things, yet won't be connected with the Amiga for those lowlifes out there who think it a bad thing.

Really... the new Videoscape Studio, by Newtek.

mgrusin
04-26-2003, 11:08 AM
Personally I love the fact that the "Video Toaster" is called the "Video Toaster". (If I ran the zoo, I would have left the name as "Video Toaster [2]" (to separate it from the Amiga hardware) and had a version number after it, and would have gone to [3] with the next hardware change, but it's not a biggie).

Those people who smile and nod knowingly when you tell them you're using Video Toaster are the RIGHT PEOPLE (I like Ahmed's "free lunch" bonus :D). Those who stare blankly need to have their socks blown off. Those who scoff should be avoided, or if you need their money, tell them you could use that other system, but it would cost more, take longer, and not look as good. (You could also keep some Avid, Media100, etc. screen backdrops around for those clients with real inadequacy problems ;)).

-MG

jcupp
04-26-2003, 03:20 PM
But you see my livlyhood comes from selling VT[x] to people. I can't afford to blow off anyone who "scoffs".

Yes it is stupid but because of the lack of continuous industry acknowledgement of the Toasters existance most potential customers either have never heard of a Video Toaster or they thought "Video Toaster went out of business back in the '80s". The latter makes the sale MUCH more difficult even if they have fond memories of the old Video Toaster back at their high school. I have to spend time convincing them that there has been an improvement or two since the old Amiga product and explaining that NewTek has been here all along etc.

It's even worse when the grizzled old video engineer limps out and starts complaining that "way back in 1990 he told 'em that Toaster was junk and how the DVEs are pixelated and you will be installing one of those over his dead body". 'Cause he ain't listening to my explanations. If I were selling the New XR4ti Pro from NewTek, the creaters of desktop video I wouldn't have this problem.

There is name recognition of the Video Toaster but most non-owners think of it as a product of the long past not of the future.

So any more suggestions for new names?

How about:
Gravity Wave
Nutrino
Photon
Event Horizon
Dodecahedron (since Cube and Sphere are taken)
Malichite
Krypton
PlanetX
The Entity

For fun:
http://www.wordlab.com/tools/t_index.cfm

Hiraghm
04-26-2003, 04:26 PM
Jcupp, remember what I said; selling to dummies costs you money in customer support ;)

Videoscape [Studio] covers your problem. Keeps the Amiga fanatics semi-happy, will pass over the head of the Toaster skeptics, (sceptics?) and will sound "cool" to everyone else!

I kinda like "Gravity".
If you're gonna use "Photon".. well.. who made Photon Paint?

I guess my favorite of those is "Nutrino"... but don't spell it like that....

"N e w t r i n o"

There ya go!:cool:

robewil
04-26-2003, 04:38 PM
Isn't Newtrino a desktop publishing program?

...Oh yeah, that's Quark, never mind.

All these subatomic program names get confusing. :)

By the way, I'll second the vote on "Videoscape".

By the way whatever happened to that program? :D

Jim Capillo
04-26-2003, 06:09 PM
Well, problems with AH & "Videoscape" can be avoided by shortening it to "Vidscape Studio [3]"

They both have a nice ring.........;)

kdkuntz
04-26-2003, 07:40 PM
I've kinda decided I like 'Studio Espress'. Espress isn't really a word but it rolls off the tongue well. It shouldn't scare any of the 'corporate' guys who want a more 'professional' sounding name.
It could be taken as a shortening of Espresso which fits since caffeine is the fuel of choice for many editors. Hmmm - is there a Mocha or Kona version in it's future? It also could be taken as Express - both for the speed and ease of use of VT (without the potential bad connotation of it being a 'light' version) as well as the easy ability to express yourself with it.
Unfortunately it probably means something truly horrible in another language. sigh.

jcupp
04-26-2003, 07:45 PM
Vidscape Studio
Newtrino

Not bad at all

Endorphin - Kills your production pain!
VideoGlyph
LumaGlyph
PhosperGlyph
NeoGlyph
EndoGlyph - Stop me before I hurt someone

kdkuntz
04-26-2003, 11:02 PM
Okay - someone needs to pick a name. Jeff and I (I'm the 'other half' of Jeff Cupp) are spending all our time driving to and from work, eating dinner, etc. coming up with names. It's not a pretty sight!

Here's one that he liked too:

Metaglyph

The word parts have absolutely nothing to do with the VT but it sounds cool. And who wouldn't want to buy something called the Metaglyph Genesis?

Just a thought . . .

Jim Capillo
04-27-2003, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by kdkuntz

Here's one that he liked too:

Metaglyph



:D LOL

Perhaps Newtek could license a picture of Gene Simmons to take the place of the "VT" in the circle of the corporate logo !

:p

Chuck
04-27-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Hiraghm
Speaking of which, while I have your attention, what are the rules and requirements for me to use Newtek trademarks and such on my website? In my banner I've got a character from my Oct contest, and he has the Newtek logo on his ship; I also plan on having the full animation in my gallery. Do I have to redo it all and erase the Newtek logo, or is there some kind of copyright I can post?


At the bottom of every page on the site we have a copyright statement, "Copyright 2003 NewTek", that also is a link to our document on usage guidelines for folks who want to be able to display our trademarks and copyright graphics:

http://www.newtek.com/trademarks.html

Paul Lara
04-27-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by kdkuntz
Here's one that he liked too:

Metaglyph



Well, that's kinda tasty, since I like to explain to people that when it comes to color-correcting an entire 1-hour show, VT doesn't do it in real-time, it does it in META-Time, since a competitor could rightfully claim that color-correcting a 1-hour show in one hour is real-time. VT, on the other claw, does it instantly, exponentially faster than any steenking real-time. :D

SBowie
04-27-2003, 12:46 PM
We don't need no steenking 'realtime!'

(We're so fast we're working in 'bullet time,' where mere realtime looks like slomo!)

ted
04-27-2003, 01:17 PM
How about "Video Blender"?:D
Ya know, it does blend most any format on the timeline!
Or "Video Fridge" cause it's so Cooooool!:D

Hiraghm
04-27-2003, 01:38 PM
Hi Chuck!

I took a look at the trademark page, and my application of the Newtek logo isn't clear to me yet. Could you stop by my website (the link at the bottom) and take a look at the banner? The Newtek logo is on the little alien guy's spaceship. I can't tell where in the trademark rules I fall. Hopefully this will be a commercial site, since I intend to sell my services through it. It's promotional, in that it promotes my work. I intend having the entire animation in my gallery as an example of my work, with proper description of what it is and was for (the Newtek logo contest from last october.) Kinda needs the Newtek logo for that, since that was what it was about.
I could spend a couple days re-rendering it without the Newtek logo, but I'd rather not waste the time (and the animation would become kind of meaningless). And I'm neither a reseller nor a licensee. And I don't use the registered trademark logo in my messages here because I dunno what key combination gives it. :rolleyes:

If you want to bump the question over to the legal dept, I'd be happy to talk to them about it. It's not that the rules are obscure, it's that my application of the logo seems (at least to me) kind of esoteric.

robewil
04-27-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by ted
How about "Video Blender"?:D


Few may remember that "Video Blender" was also an Amiga product from Progressive Peripherals and Software.

ted
04-27-2003, 10:15 PM
Dang it!
All the good names seem to have been taken.
How 'bout "Video Toolbox"?

RomainR
04-27-2003, 11:11 PM
How about MANIFOLD.

kleima
04-27-2003, 11:19 PM
Chuck,

As for suggestions regarding a product to bear the name "Video Toaster" - how about the new faster-than-real-time high definition video version of the Toaster that I'm sure you're all working on! :)
Then, they could all EAT their distaste for the old name as they drool over its crisp capabilities. I bet then no one would be asking if this was Amiga technology!!! :)

ted
04-28-2003, 02:42 AM
That's it!
The "Krispy Creamer".

Oh, never mind. My dog had to go outside for a minute and I got hungry.
I'll go back to bed now!:o

jcupp
04-29-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by kdkuntz

Metaglyph

The word parts have absolutely nothing to do with the VT but it sounds cool. And who wouldn't want to buy something called the Metaglyph Genesis?

Just a thought . . .

Meta = 1. Denoting change of condition. 2. Of a higher or second order kind.

Glyph = A symbolic figure.

The NewTek MetaGlyph, cue Also Sparch Zarathustra!

I like it. Cool, high tech, Symbolic what more could you want from a product name?

Eirkey1
04-30-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by mgrusin
Personally I love the fact that the "Video Toaster" is called the "Video Toaster". (If I ran the zoo, I would have left the name as "Video Toaster [2]" (to separate it from the Amiga hardware) and had a version number after it, and would have gone to [3] with the next hardware change, but it's not a biggie).

Those people who smile and nod knowingly when you tell them you're using Video Toaster are the RIGHT PEOPLE (I like Ahmed's "free lunch" bonus :D). Those who stare blankly need to have their socks blown off. Those who scoff should be avoided, or if you need their money, tell them you could use that other system, but it would cost more, take longer, and not look as good. (You could also keep some Avid, Media100, etc. screen backdrops around for those clients with real inadequacy problems ;)).

-MG

I probably fall into the catagory of grizzled video engineer, having been around video studios for far too long, building capture systems when it was a true black art espailly with PII 266 machines. And I can tell you from exprience that AVID's are not everthing they are cracked up to be at the BBC the systems would dissapear up their own backside with sickening regularity.

Most producers are none technical people, who quite frankly know NOTHING!!! They request an AVID simply to look intelligent.

Many people will insist on MAYA for aniimation simply because it is a posers(no pun intended) animation tool.(Its 4 times the price it must be better-right?)

What amazes me is the rigmarole involed in maintaining an NLE in day to day use, the lenght of time it takes in terms of workflow for the Mac based systems to do their stuff. It aint cool its CLUNKY.

If we concentrate on Workflow getting the same job done for the same money in half the time, the producer is happy with the quality and speed, and I'm happy with the margin, and more time to play. The poor long suffering Avid user can leave his stuff to render overnight, spend a sleepless night worrying, and then come in to find the Avid ran out of disk space overnight.

ted
04-30-2003, 11:54 AM
"Most producers are none technical people, who quite frankly know NOTHING!!! They request an AVID simply to look intelligent.

Such a true statement. I can't tell you how many "Creative Directors" that use terms they have no clue what they mean.

We've gone as far as giving them some term like "Digatos", only to find they've used that term at other facilities.:p
Too funny.

However, you still need to get them in the door. Once that's has happened and you've gained their trust, they aren't nearly as worried what you used, as much as how easy you got them their product.

I have this one guy who for dozens of sessions would tell me how to edit and what tools to use. After pulling out my hair, I finally told him,
"You tell me what you want, and let me use my tools to get you there".

Since then, we've gotten along fine. He just sits there and lets me do the work. Well, sometimes he forgets, but it's gotten MUCH better! :rolleyes:

vanguard
05-02-2003, 04:03 PM
Should be short......

2 sylables or less.....

Eaasy to remember.....




Insight -- Its what you get when you stop and think.




See, and I thought those years of marketing experience were wasted...

tmon
05-02-2003, 05:44 PM
I like "Insight" but I think Honda has that one already.

Dan Hong
05-03-2003, 02:53 PM
I've got a Honda Insight and it's just about as good technology as the VT. Lifetime best...96 miles per gallon.

vanguard
05-05-2003, 07:19 AM
I too have an Insight (Best one-way of 92.5!, and average 68.2 over 84,700ish miles!).

Buuut, their trademark will appear per use. So that if somebody else made an automobile and named it "Insight" that would be a violation. Unlike software copyright which governs "look and feel" the naming conventions are a per use basis.

For example: I could manufacture a Bread Toaster with a TV/VCR combo in the same package and call it a "Video Toaster", because I'm not in direct competition with NewTek. Unless they have secret ambitions to break into the housewares department...

So, yeah Honduh has the rights to Insight the car... (Pizza the Hut??) but somebody making something other than a car could use it.

Geez, I kinda got on ramble there...

Must be Monday morning...