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fda
10-06-2004, 02:44 PM
Well, waited to buy the "VT3" instead of VT2 to just now all of the sudden out of nowhere see VT4. Just 'installed and Activated' VT3 over the phone couple months ago and have yet to use it for anything at all. Just when I was going to start playing with it I see that VT4 is $1000 for software only??? And this is for both VT2->VT4 and VT3->VT4? I guess I just wish there were more leaks as to when VT4 would come out, I definitely would have WAITED since I am now GREATLY penalized for buying the VT3 System not long before VT4 and before I was even ready to use it. It sucks!
So when is VT[5] or VT6 coming out? In less than one year?

I think the SOFTWARE Upgrade from VT3 to VT4 should probably be $500, maybe from VT2 or VT1 you can make it $1000. Oh and did I mention this sucks!!
Ok I'm done blowing steam for now :D

robewil
10-06-2004, 02:53 PM
I feel your pain. I would talk to customer service and see if they can do something about this. I'm sure you are not alone. This is actually, one of the disadvantages of not pre-announcing a product.

I believe one reason the software upgrade is so high this time is because they include a third-party DVD Authoring program (DVD Workshop 2 SE). This software alone, costs $500 and I'm sure Newtek pays a lot less than that per upgrade, they can justify the price.

Personally, I wish they would have a $500 upgrade without the DVD Workshop. I am quite happy with my TMPGEnc and DVD-Lab pipeline that I have been using for the past year.

SBowie
10-06-2004, 03:03 PM
Personally, I wish they would have a $500 upgrade without the DVD Workshop. I am quite happy with my TMPGEnc and DVD-Lab pipeline that I have been using for the past year.Hmmmm .... And without the LW8 upgrade, and without the MPEG2 encoding maybe?

fda
10-06-2004, 03:09 PM
Yea, I'm with you about the DVD package included, don't need it. Wouldn't need lightwave either, if you go by the price of the $500 DVD package you mentioned and Lightwave which is probably around $500? too then they could probably take those out and give us the rest of the options as a SERVICE pack to VT3????? :) :D
In fact I was just looking forward to:
PowerPointģ added as a switcher input
Serverless Streaming
Some of the new CG stuff
Real-time DV out
and 200+ new DVEs and video transitions wouldn't hurt.

And I had just mustered up the energy to tackle the system but it just doesn't feel as exciting when you don't have the latest version :( :D

robewil
10-06-2004, 03:15 PM
Hmmmm .... And without the LW8 upgrade, and without the MPEG2 encoding maybe?Steve, those are, I believe, Newtek-created enhancements. My belief is that adding the third-party product is significantly adding to the price of the upgrade.

SBowie
10-06-2004, 03:28 PM
Steve, those are, I believe, Newtek-created enhancements. My belief is that adding the third-party product is significantly adding to the price of the upgrade.The MPEG2 encoder is third party, and although LW isn't, that doesn't make it's inclusion free, really. BTW, I'm not quibbling here -- just wondering aloud what would seem fair to those with your viewpoint. (I don't imagine the removal of the DVD SE version alone could justify bringing the cost down to the old $595 level.)

Faraz
10-06-2004, 03:55 PM
I feel NewTek has always been extremely generous on there pricing, compared to other products in the professional market. Iíve been using the same VT card, since 2000. Not only do I have the same card, Iíve been able to get the best and newest features in the market. When you consider the price of DVD Workshop alone is $495, and the LightWave Upgrade costs $499 or so. Youíre already at $1000. I know a lot of people donít need some of the stuff included, but itís just a perspective. I think itís a very smart move for NewTek, to add DVD workshop to their package. It was a really needed hole in the workflow, and not only did they add DVD authoring, but they added a GOOD DVD authoring program.

This is one of those upgrades, that you donít understand the importance from a website or even a demo. You really need to use it, to see the giant leap forward. The new scaling and motion algorithm, IS AMAZING. The web streaming simplicity is amazing. Integrated CG WOW! Trust me, this upgrade is well worth the price, just give it a chance.

jcupp
10-06-2004, 04:01 PM
OK, this is kind of complicated but, as per a memo from Irene at NewTek, upgrade pricing is:

1) If you bought the VT[3] Live bundle (VT[3], SX-8 and RS-8) at the special price of $4495 ($1500 off of list as it's been offered for the last couple of months) You pay $995 for the VT[4] upgrade.

2) If you purchased the VT[3] upgrade ($595 List) between Sept. 6 and Oct. 6 (we didn't let any of our customers make this mistake) you can purchase the VT[4] upgrade for $795

3) If you purchased the VT[3] package (VT card and software $2995 List) between Sept. 6 and Oct. 6 you can get the VT[4] upgrade for $795

4) If you bought the VT[3] upgrade several months ago you should've more than paid for it in increased productivity. So you pay $995

The hardware (VT-Pro) upgrade is an additional $1000. So you would pay either $1795 or $1995 depending on the category above you fell into.

I'm guessing only a few full priced VTs (Scenario 3 above) were sold over the last month as most dealers probably warned buyers off or upsold to the Live bundle.

And if you just want to buy a second VT The VT[4] Live bundle is still only $5995 (same list as the VT[3] Live bundle, almost $2000 less than the individual pieces)

It would probably cost more to unbundle assorted parts of the VT then it would save on costs especially with Lightwave since it costs $0 for NewTek to throw that in as it's just bits on the disc. And the most requested feature for the VT is has been DVD authoring so for most new buyers it is a definite plus.

-Jeff
Digital Arts
www.DigitalArts.tv
1-800-692-6442

Brian Peterson
10-06-2004, 04:06 PM
I know a lot of people donít need some of the stuff included, but itís just a perspective. I think itís a very smart move for NewTek, to add DVD workshop to their package. It was a really needed hole in the workflow, and not only did they add DVD authoring, but they added a GOOD DVD authoring program.


And those of us who have invested in a better program called Encore? Justifying the price with something a lot of us don't need isn't justifying it. I'm already invested in Encore and DVDSP on the Apple. Newtek trying to shoehorn us into a program that we neither need or want and then justifying the cost with that isn't going to fly! :mad: If I considered DVDW a good program I would have invested in it a long time ago, however I don't and neither do I want to pay for it.

robewil
10-06-2004, 04:19 PM
The MPEG2 encoder is third party, and although LW isn't, that doesn't make it's inclusion free, really. BTW, I'm not quibbling here -- just wondering aloud what would seem fair to those with your viewpoint. (I don't imagine the removal of the DVD SE version alone could justify bringing the cost down to the old $595 level.)It can usually be argued that you get more than your money's worth in an upgrade. Yes, $995 accounts for the price of DVD Workshop and Lightwave [8] alone. It makes sense to include these in the regular package for first-time buyers. It adds value and is yet another feature that can be checked off as "included". However, most of us who already own VT[3] (or [2] for that matter) already have DVD solutions. We didn't wait for Newtek to provide it. Many of us have Lightwave[8]. Newtek should consider a $595 upgrade to 4 without theses packages.

I, personally, find $995 steep for VT[4]. Yes, I want the new features like better picture-in-picture quality and Quicktime support, but I can't justify it. That may change or I may just wait for the next big thing.

SBowie
10-06-2004, 04:30 PM
It can usually be argued that you get more than your money's worth in an upgrade. Yes, $995 accounts for the price of DVD Workshop and Lightwave [8] alone. It makes sense to include these in the regular package for first-time buyers. It adds value and is yet another feature that can be checked off as "included". However, most of us who already own VT[3] (or [2] for that matter) already have DVD solutions. We didn't wait for Newtek to provide it. Many of us have Lightwave[8]. Newtek should consider a $595 upgrade to 4 without theses packages. Well, I think you've articulated your thinking nicely, and NewTek has stated elsewhere that they're keeping an eye on these discussions, so we'll have to see if they share your view. Thanks for expressing it. :)

jcupp
10-06-2004, 04:30 PM
Well what if I used FC-Pro to edit do you think NewTek should ship a version of the VT without VT Edit? After all I don't want to pay for it if I don't use it. Where do you draw the line? Anyway, I'd be surprised if DVDWS SE added more than $50 bucks to the price of the VT.

DVDWS is a great addition to the VT, I've sold at least 140 VT systems and of the systems that went out with DVD burners (all of them lately) exactly two of them went to people who already had authoring software and didn't need any from me so you are definitly in the minority.

-Jeff
Digital Arts
www.DigitalArts.tv
1800-692-6442


And those of us who have invested in a better program called Encore? Justifying the price with something a lot of us don't need isn't justifying it. I'm already invested in Encore and DVDSP on the Apple. Newtek trying to shoehorn us into a program that we neither need or want and then justifying the cost with that isn't going to fly! :mad: If I considered DVDW a good program I would have invested in it a long time ago, however I don't and neither do I want to pay for it.

Faraz
10-06-2004, 04:34 PM
This is an optional upgrade, adding features and third-party software. I can understand if you recently bought VT3 and are now upset. Talk to NewTek privately, and I'm pretty sure they'll work something out. I use Encore too, and love it, however I wouldnít use it for everything. This upgrade was made for the wide public. DVD workshop is versatile and can be used by the majority of the VT users. NewTek needs to make money and make MOST customers happy, that's what they're accomplishing. NewTek can never make everyone happy.

I would also like to ask everyone to give NewTek a chance, let some more information come out. Really sink your teeth into all the improvements and then make your judgment.

Thanks-

SBowie
10-06-2004, 04:40 PM
Well what if I used FC-Pro to edit do you think NewTek should ship a version of the VT without VT Edit?I just want to add that I'd be jumping in here to agree with Jeff had we not already had pretty much the same dialogue with the same cast elswhere today, and it doesn't seem to bear repeating.

Jim_C
10-06-2004, 05:11 PM
When you consider the price of DVD Workshop alone is $495, and the LightWave Upgrade costs $499 or so. Youíre already at $1000.


Does the full $495 version of DVD Workshop come with VT4?

fda
10-06-2004, 05:38 PM
Yes, I'm SURE you're very happy if you went with a VT1 and upgraded in steps of $500 up to VT3 and made much good use of it but I think you'd feel different if you just activated your VT3 couple months ago and was just about to "START USING IT" for the first time, so you go to newtek.com to make sure you have the latest service pack and find out VT4 is out with 'new' better hardware even, bugfixes and new features :D

Maybe I'll just live with the VT3, who knows it might end up alongside my Play Trinity in my Garage/Museum anyway :D

Maybe we can get a 'rebate' towards VT5 or VT6?(I don't think there's enough hardware difference/advantage to change to VT4 hardware now or cheaper software-only option but I'm VERY skeptical about that unless for some reason Newtek is a lot more humane than other companies???)

What sucks the most is I was really excited about finally booting up the VT3 system again and start working with it but now I just don't have the energy anymore after seeing $1K needed to be "up-to-date" :(

Seems like MATROX is offering a hardware upgrade for $599 for the Matrox RT.X100 Xtreme PRO from my OLD Matrox RT2000 card. Supposedly it's lightyears better than my old RT2000 which wasn't bad for realtime effects etc.


I feel NewTek has always been extremely generous on there pricing, compared to other products in the professional market. Iíve been using the same VT card, since 2000. Not only do I have the same card, Iíve been able to get the best and newest features in the market. When you consider the price of DVD Workshop alone is $495, and the LightWave Upgrade costs $499 or so. Youíre already at $1000.

jcupp
10-06-2004, 05:54 PM
Your's is a cautionary tale about not buying technology before it is needed. All of us should instruct our children to never buy computer hardware or software until they must have it because the longer one waits the cheaper/better it will be.

But have a talk with your dealer they might be able to help you out. But if you have to stick with VT[3] for now all is not lost because VT[3] is great I've been using it everyday for almost 2 years now and the only thing I'd trade it for is VT[4].

wvp
10-06-2004, 06:15 PM
Does the full $495 version of DVD Workshop come with VT4?

Jim - good question. Others on this post have referred to the upgrade cost as including the $500 Workshop2. However, NT states that it includes "DVD Workshop SE ".
If it is indeed the full workshop2, then the upgrade becomes a better deal for me, as I was wanting Workshop2 (@the upgrade price of $249 as previous owner).

To whomever it was that commented on owning Encore -- I may be wrong, but I think FCP includes DVD Studio Pro in it's "suite". To some the addition of workshop makes the price more justified, to others the inclusion of LW8, for some neither. In the case of the latter, you need to ask if the other features justifies the cost.

Lastly, don't forget VT[4] will not run as well on your "older" CPU's (under 2.9Ghz), so factor that into your "upgrade costs"!

ScorpioProd
10-06-2004, 06:15 PM
Does the full $495 version of DVD Workshop come with VT4?

No.

The version bundled is an OEM version called DVD Workshop SE.

It is more limited than the full DVD Workshop 2.2, but honestly, it has most of the features you would normally need. It cuts back things like audio tracks and subtitle tracks to a total of 2, eliminates stuff like DLT support, stuff like that.

If you already have DVD WS 2.2, as I do, rest assured it fully works with VT[4] as well, no need to "downgrade".

ScorpioProd
10-06-2004, 06:19 PM
Lastly, don't forget VT[4] will not run as well on your "older" CPU's (under 2.9Ghz), so factor that into your "upgrade costs"!

Sorry, but that is totally wrong.

I think this idea got started just cause Newtek's recommendations for a NEW system to host a VT[4] are higher than the old, which is natural since new systems ARE faster, that's progress, and that will make VT[4] even better; but this in no way means that fast existing VT[3] systems are obsolete.

In fact, Andrew has stated that VT[4] will run MORE efficiently on the same hardware that VT[3] runs on.

PIZAZZ
10-06-2004, 06:25 PM
Lastly, don't forget VT[4] will not run as well on your "older" CPU's (under 2.9Ghz), so factor that into your "upgrade costs"!

Those are recommend specs. We are running VT[4] on much less and it does work fine. Now if I was building a new system for someone the YES I would build something above the recommended specs.

Single P4 3ghz works great. Not like a Dual 3ghz Xeon 800FSB monster we just built. That thing just flies.

JReble
10-06-2004, 06:30 PM
Well my thoughts, for what they're worth, are that the new features sound nice, but the whole scenario (pricing, software/hardware combinations) is incredibly confusing to any end user and all the variables that will arise are only going to tick people off. I'm already a little peaved about a number of things while at the same time, I'm at least curious about the new capabilities. Unfortunately I think my concerns far surpass any new interest.

As I'm sure we'll hear for the next several months, some or many of the new enhancements were hoped for and in some cases rightfully expected with the initial purchase. Proper MPEG2 playback support, decent audio meters with accurate levels, and halfway decent scaling of stills at a minimum come to mind. These things were identified as problems, not lacking features all the way back to VT2 in some cases.

While I think it's great that progress continues to be made on the platform, it really is sad to see another paid release being dropped by the wayside again before it was ever properly delivered as a fully operational product. I'm not talking about neat new features, I'm talking about existing features that work properly. If they want to make new hardware or software that's great, but one must assume that any corrections for the last version are being dropped. I feel I've communicated the problems and been more than patient about the specific issues mentioned above only to have them ignored again in the pursuit of a new version to put out to market. Then many of us are expected to buy up the latest version with the glitz of new features and the small hope that old problems have been solved. I've got too much buyer's remorse now to even consider that. Plus common sense is telling me that as soon as I did lay out more money, I'll find problems still exist that I expected fixed the last go around or two.

I just took delivery on a new VT3 system which makes 2 systems with the same setup in our facility. I can only feel pretty crummy that they are both now effectively out of date, largely unsupported, and both costly to update to get them both up to current features. I sure as heck don't want one VT4 software system with a VT3 card and one VT3 software system with a VT3 card, or one VT4 card with VT4 software and one all VT3, or one sx8 + VT3.5 - an sx84 - the square root of the genlock card divided by the lack of preview in the fourth %channel, etc. etc. etc.

Some folks talk about all the money people must have made to justify each upgrade along the way. Regardless of my personal feelings on that score, let me tell you that I'm squarely in one of the markets Newtek seems focused on these days rather than mainstream post production. I'm here to tell you Government and P.E.G. facilities don't make a dime with any new features they may get with $500 and $1,000 upgrades. They do lose plenty of time and efficiency when existing systems don't work as they are supposed to.

I'm being very fair here, IMO, and I am surprised to see users praise Newtek right now about how much they listen to end users and try to respond. I feel completely used right now after months of documenting and dealing with existing problems only to have them be so-called fixed in the next version I'm supposed to pay for. It's obvious they incorporated new feature ideas that have been tossed around these forums for a long time. There have been and are a lot of problem items noted as well. What burns me up is that some of the things that were problems that needed fixing are being promoted now as new features like the audio meters & mpeg2 support. In case I and other users weren't clear, we wanted some problems corrected. We weren't asking for an opportunity to pay for a new version that might also happen to fix problems with the last. It ain't all bad and I want to be balanced, but overall I ain't a happy camper right now and I won't fault anyone else having the same feelings. :(

fda
10-06-2004, 07:00 PM
I think what could really help ameliorate such disappointments, is some more information from Newtek as to future upgrades. Approximately when will VT5 or VT6 come out? Will VT5 and/or VT6 be HARDWARE upgrades or software only? Approximately how much will it cost for UPGRADING from VT3 to VT5 or VT6?

Basically, if I'm told that VT5 is just around the corner and will be a major improvement in hardware (which VT4 is not) and that it will then go through a couple software only upgrades after VT5, then I will likely wait for VT5 to make my next upgrade. If VT4 hardware is going to remain as is for quite some time, then maybe it makes sense to upgrade now. I haven't even seen any upgrade paths delineated for VT1 or VT2 users wanting to go to VT4.

I have yet to use my VT3 at all but have to admit some of the new VT4 features look very enticing to me: VGA source as a switcher input(I started a new thread on this) http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=28986
PowerPoint as Switcher source, Realtime DV output, ServerLess WebStreaming, improved Live Keyer....

So can we get Newtek to give us at least a rough outline of future upgrade paths along with cost details etc?

SBowie
10-06-2004, 07:16 PM
Approximately when will VT5 or VT6 come out?Gee, maybe it's just me, but if this isn't tongue in cheek, isn't it just a little premature?

The dust hasn't settled on the VT[4] announcement, after a roughly 16 month run for VT[3]. What do you think the chances are there's a soul on the planet who can make any kind of confident prediction like that?

wvp
10-06-2004, 07:24 PM
WOW!
I'm reading replies to my posts minutes after posting them!
I stand behind my comment about the CPU's - According to Newteks own system requirements: "Systems of lesser processor and drive speed will work with VT[4] but some complex functions may not perform in real-time"
I never said it would not work, I merely said "...will not run as well ..." which is what the about statement from Newtek indicates.
That said, it is good to hear that "lesser systems" are working well.

I Agree with Jreble that some "enhancements" in VT[4] should have been in VT[3] (or earlier) as promoted.

fda, I too would love to see NT provide this kind of info. But don't expect it. It does not make good business sense to tell people "don't buy now... in 6 months we''ll have something even better". I do think it would be a good compromise to inform users if a requested fix is comming soon & free or not until later and in a paid upgrade (for whatever the reason is).
Also, I do believe VT1, 2 and 3 users can all enjoy the upgrade to VT[4] for the same cost.

Rich Deustachio
10-06-2004, 07:26 PM
One question I have, since this $995 upgrade doesn't include any HD/HDV capabilities, are we going to have to fork up another grand when that comes available? I realize that the new card is setting us up for that to come but will we have to pay for another upgrade when the HD/HDV is ready?

SBowie
10-06-2004, 07:29 PM
According to Newteks own system requirements: "Systems of lesser processor and drive speed will work with VT[4] but some complex functions may not perform in real-time"Just to help sort this out, I'm going to stick my neck out to cross-post information the good Dr. made public on the VTNT list today:

"There is no requirement to buy a new computer system, or the new hardware to use VT[4] - any more than there was for the VT[3] update. Indeed, if the same project is used in VT[4] and VT[3], VT[4] will perform BETTER. That said, there are some new features that can take advantage of more CPU speed if its available (as there always have been) and so these will obviously benefit from a new machine."

fda
10-06-2004, 07:30 PM
Actually I don't really think it's premature, many companies usually do have a good idea of when they will release a new piece of hardware but most of the time they'd prefer not to tell their current customers :(
New customers are seen as the most important, current customers are always a secondary issue, they're in the bag already, have made substantial investments in their technology and as such will likely 'upgrade' be it happily or disgruntled.
But assuming Newtek has no idea of a timeline, how about the price of VT3 to VT5 or VT4 to VT5 etc, that info would help. Basically, I don't buy the notion that Newtek is clueless as to the future and can't possibly give us any 'pointers' to help us in our upgrade rationale/decisions.

fda
10-06-2004, 07:37 PM
Yea, I guess if I were a VT1 user getting VT4 for $995 I'd be very happy :) ;)
But when you just got around to installing/activating your VT3 that same $995 evokes a different smilie :(


WOW!
fda, I too would love to see NT provide this kind of info. But don't expect it. It does not make good business sense to tell people "don't buy now... in 6 months we''ll have something even better". I do think it would be a good compromise to inform users if a requested fix is comming soon & free or not until later and in a paid upgrade (for whatever the reason is).
Also, I do believe VT1, 2 and 3 users can all enjoy the upgrade to VT[4] for the same cost.

MediaSig
10-06-2004, 07:42 PM
But if you have to stick with VT[3] for now all is not lost because VT[3] is great I've been using it everyday for almost 2 years now and the only thing I'd trade it for is VT[4].

I take it you were a Beta Tester to VT3 since I bought the upgrade the week it came out last year - and that was in August (August/September) of 2003 if I remember correctly.

I didn't think VT3 had been officially out for 2 years now.

Greg


...Hmm...maybe I'm wrong...was it July of 2003?

MediaSig
10-06-2004, 07:57 PM
One question I have, since this $995 upgrade doesn't include any HD/HDV capabilities, are we going to have to fork up another grand when that comes available? I realize that the new card is setting us up for that to come but will we have to pay for another upgrade when the HD/HDV is ready?


VERY good question...and something I would want to know as well!

Where did you find out that the NEW card is setting us up for possible HD/HDV?? Did I miss something?


Greg

jcupp
10-06-2004, 07:59 PM
Yes, I'm sure that when (not if) NewTek ships a VT[HD] you will be expected to pay for it. You will probably have to buy a bigger, badder computer to run it too. NewTek has never announced any sort of HD support in VT[3] or VT[4] so I wouldn't expect them to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars developing said HD software and then just give it away.

You know that NewTek is a for profit company right?

Let me repeat this: VT[4] doesn't do HDV and NewTek never said it would, and, this is a presumption on my part, but when they come out with a version that does do HD you will probably have to pay for it. So if what you need is HDV VT[4] isn't for you. If you buy the VT[4] upgrade now when NewTek ships the next paid upgrade whenever that may be if you want whatever new features it has you will have to pay for it also. This is how the business works.



One question I have, since this $995 upgrade doesn't include any HD/HDV capabilities, are we going to have to fork up another grand when that comes available? I realize that the new card is setting us up for that to come but will we have to pay for another upgrade when the HD/HDV is ready?

Jim Capillo
10-06-2004, 08:07 PM
For those newbies around here that don't know the history of Newtek's announcements, they were burned back in the OT (Original Toaster)/Flyer days by pre-announcing ship dates and features and ultimately took a lot of heat for it. I was one of the guys who threw daggers when things weren't delivered on time and with all the promised features...... :o

But y'know what ? I went and bought into that Play nonsense and wasted several thousand dollars on a product that promised everything but a date with Pam Anderson and delivered pretty much nothing, especially in the area of stability. Today, you can go and spend many tens of thousands of dollars for a Globecaster and STILL have to pay thousands each year for the "privilege" of getting the upgrades - without any schedule or promises for features, bug fixes, etc. I think they've only had 1 major release in nearly two years (ask Ted).... 3.0 was just released. Also, try getting the email addy of the lead programmer over there - or the CEO for that matter. Yeah, right. :mad:

I know I rag on GS almost any chance I get :D , but they screwed me (or tried to - I wouldn't give them my money), but my point is, is that we are pretty spoiled compared to most folks with editing solutions who don't know ANYTHING until the product hits the shelf. No input, no nothing. I'm trying to be not too much of a bumkisser here :p or a cheerleader, but to be really honest, I'm getting a lot of work out the door much, much faster than the competitors are. I had a FCP and an Avid guy in the suite last week to visit (I'm in a building with 400 businesses and several production companies), and their jaws dropped to the floor when they saw the VT humming along.

Reality can make you feel pretty bad (and inadequate) at times. :D

So, to make a long story longer :eek: , I don't mind if NT doesn't announce dates and features. I'm making money with my VT efficiently - it has paid for itself more than several times over.

As far as pricing goes, I know that some have to work on a budget and within corporate timetables, but for NT to announce pricing for something that is not even on the drawing board yet is ridiculous. You can easily figure a Newtek ballpark figure by looking at their past pricing structure and adding on 50%. ;)

Now, back to the edit - and more money ! :D

SBowie
10-06-2004, 08:10 PM
I had a FCP and an Avid guy in the suite last week to visit (I'm in a building with 400 businesses and several production companies), and Amen, brother.

Geomagnetica
10-06-2004, 08:21 PM
Yep, I'm one of those lucky guy's who spent $18.649.56 on a complete VT3 system a view months back, my little old Trinity unfortunately died, so I then rushed out and ordered a new VT3, which I was going to order at the end of this year anyway, but guess what, the day after I send the money my little old Trinity came back from the dead, and because I'm very buzzy at this time of year I've really only got to use VT3 for about 3 hours in total, and now we get VT4, if only I had waited one more day, and I would have got myself a brand new VT4, boy us Trinity guys always get lucky. :mad:

Jim Capillo
10-06-2004, 08:26 PM
[snipped]..... and now we get VT4, if only I had waited one more day, and I would have got myself a brand new VT4, boy us Trinity guys always get lucky. :mad:

I would call your dealer if I were you, or maybe even San Antonio. If you only had VT[3] a few days, I'm betting they'll take care of you.

It might be worth the cost of a transatlantic call......

ScorpioProd
10-06-2004, 08:27 PM
Newtek has always helped out users that bought their last product really soon before a new upgrade comes out... They can probably do something for you.

Rich Deustachio
10-06-2004, 08:45 PM
Where did you find out that the NEW card is setting us up for possible HD/HDV?? Did I miss something?


Greg

Well I didn't find out anything but assumed that it was a logical path. I guess the old sayng about A SS-U-ME fits.

MediaSig
10-06-2004, 09:20 PM
Well I didn't find out anything bnut assumed that it was a logical path. I guess the old sayng about A SS-U-ME fits.


HE he...I've been doing a lot of that myself with this new upgrade. I know there's NO mention of HD or HDV support in VT4, but you can't help but wonder with the new hardware. I mean, why would I want to upgrade to this new PRO card if I have to a new card AGAIN for HD down the road?

All in all, I'm under the impression that NewTek has found a market in which to make some money - be it event produciton, internet streaming, etc. They now have a product that puts that Sony box seen at NAB to shame (wasn't it something like $20,000?)
For what they are offering, this thing is tops - hands down. I say GO FOR IT! They've worked hard and deserve to make money for putting Sony to shame!

Now...as for post production (which is the ONLY thing I use it for), I'd say the upgrade price for the software only is WAY TOO steep for what's offered. Nice improvements and features but I can think of many other things I would have liked to have seen in TeD.

Unless I see something more practical for my needs:

*Separate Audio/Video Tracks with global on/off/solo for each track
*Locking clips in the timeline
*True in and out point markers on the timeline (not just clip/timeline markers) *Source and record trim boxes
*Shadows- midtones-highlights - color wheel type color correction
*Overlays used with DVE's
*Stereo Audio representation in the Audio clips
*Non-Dropframe, and 24p support.

...I don't think I'll be upgrading.

I know there are many who won't agree with what I would like to see in the above list. I know TeD is it's own entity. But I DO feel if NewTek wants to win over the Avid, FCP, and Premiere editors, they might want to make the interface work a little more like those programs (at least have an option to edit that way).

I hope they do well with the new upgrade. Maybe I'll join in at another time, but for the most part, I'll be keeping my eyes out for the other post solutions for a while.

;)

Just my opinion...
Greg

ScorpioProd
10-06-2004, 10:19 PM
Honestly, I do agree with your point on the hardware upgrade, but for people who need what it does now, I'm sure it can be worth it.

I also fully agree with all the features you just requested in editing software. But for me, I found enough stuff in there to upgrade for my uses.

I love VT-Edit because it is the most efficient way I've found to do bread and butter editing of long form projects.

I really don't feel Newtek is trying to compete with any specifc other NLEs. They are their own product and as this integrated live/post solution, they don't directly compare to any of the others.

IF they were to release an unbundled VT-Edit, then they would have to compete directly with those.

But for right now, Live and Live/Post are the marketing pushes, NOT Post-only.

And one should always play to the strength of one's product, and honestly VT[4] is much more powerful as its fully integrated system than as a stand-alone NLE.

kleima
10-06-2004, 11:19 PM
I would guess that the SE indicates that it is not the full version.

mgrusin
10-06-2004, 11:20 PM
(Edit - it's not; Eugene posted some of the limitations of SE on the previous page.)

Well put, Eugene. I'm a bit put off by the upgrade cost since it duplicates some software I've already invested in (not to say that Newtek engineering isn't worth it), but there is something to be said for VT living up to the worthy goal of being the "television station in a box".

I've been helping a client work on his own DVDs (he's learning Pinnacle Liquid Edition :rolleyes: ), and although I could speak very positively about almost everything on VT, when it came time to describe my DVD pipeline (which required a somewhat complex powerpoint slide to explain ;) ), I knew that it was much more than most people could handle. Adding a simple, robust way to author DVDs to VT is a great thing, even if my wallet doesn't appreciate it right now. :p

Now a loaded question: if you know, does DVD WS SE have any AC-3 encoding capabilities?

-MG

ScorpioProd
10-06-2004, 11:30 PM
Yes, DVD WS 2 SE does include AC-3 2.0 encoding.

This was told to me by Newtek, I didn't personally test that feature.

If one already has DVD WS 2.2, it's better to just use that, so I did.

The project loader plug-in will work for both of them.

kleima
10-06-2004, 11:44 PM
I hope Newtek NEVER copies those other ugly, pain-in-the-neck, program interfaces!! Just because people are used to something doesn't mean it's the best way to do something. That is one of the strengths of the VT Edit, is that it is different and logical and FAST and user-friendly. You don't have to have a degree to run it. My mother would probably be able to edit with it! Try that with any of those other industry standard interfaces! :eek:

mgrusin
10-06-2004, 11:46 PM
Cool! :cool: Thanks for the info.

-MG.

David
10-07-2004, 12:04 AM
Yes, I'm sure that when (not if) NewTek ships a VT[HD] you will be expected to pay for it. You will probably have to buy a bigger, badder computer to run it too. NewTek has never announced any sort of HD support in VT[3] or VT[4] so I wouldn't expect them to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars developing said HD software and then just give it away. You know that NewTek is a for profit company right? . . . . . . . . . . . . . how the business works.


This is only good for dealers, most of the VT[3] users have DVD editing solutions and like JReble said very clearly there are allot of issues that have not been addressed. Why should we pay for software upgrades that should have been free fixes? And as for HD/HDV, I work for a major TV network and HD is the future. It has been embraced by Cable, Satellite, and all of the other major Non-Linear editing platforms. This is like Pear Harbor, Iím Ready to get a G5 with final cut!!!

MediaSig
10-07-2004, 12:08 AM
I hope Newtek NEVER copies those other ugly, pain-in-the-neck, program interfaces!! Just because people are used to something doesn't mean it's the best way to do something. That is one of the strengths of the VT Edit, is that it is different and logical and FAST and user-friendly. You don't have to have a degree to run it. My mother would probably be able to edit with it! Try that with any of those other industry standard interfaces! :eek:


Believe me...I respect everyone's opinion on this subject. That is why I said it would be nice to have this as an OPTION. I'm not saying it should be standard for everyone to use. I have no degree in Avid editing - never took a class and picked it up in about a week.

To some, the OTHER interfaces are not pretty...to others, they are logical and practical. I can use both and I've shown the VT interface to others who use FCP, AVID, and Premiere. They seem impressed by the real-time aspect but are left scratching their heads wondering "How do I organize 200 sound clips (Dialogue, Music, Ambience, and hundreds of sound fx) without tracks to group them?" How do I turn off the Sound FX track? I have to mute each clip or somehow group them if they are scattered all over the timeline?" "What? I can't trim a clip before putting it in the timeline?" Usually they lose interest at this point.

I'm just saying what I've experienced. I come from working with those other interfaces. I understand the TeD interface and I can work with it. But there are times I wish it DID work like the others. If you have an interface they are used to, then maybe you can win them over and get them adjusted to the way TeD works now - inadequacies and all. ;)

Everyone makes their requests for what they want...that's all I'm doing here (and have done in the past as well). Seems like I always get jumped on for this one.

Greg

Doran
10-07-2004, 12:26 AM
OK, this is kind of complicated but, as per a memo from Irene at NewTek, upgrade pricing is:


2) If you purchased the VT[3] upgrade ($595 List) between Sept. 6 and Oct. 6 (we didn't let any of our customers make this mistake) you can purchase the VT[4] upgrade for $795


-Jeff
Digital Arts
www.DigitalArts.tv
1-800-692-6442



So since I upgraded my VT2 to VT3 in Oct 2003 does this mean my upgrade cost is $795 or am I misunderstanding this somehow?

David
10-07-2004, 12:31 AM
"How do I organize 200 sound clips (Dialogue, Music, Ambience, and hundreds of sound fx) without tracks to group them?" How do I turn off the Sound FX track? I have to mute each clip or somehow group them if they are scattered all over the timeline?" "What? I can't trim a clip before putting it in the timeline?" Usually they lose interest at this point. Greg

I agree the way Ted handles audio tracks is archaic. I was trying to do an M/E track for an international release of a film and it was impossible. I had to do 4 different timelines one for audio Left, one for audio right, one for Voice, and one for sound effects, and then output them separately to a Beta deck.

MediaSig
10-07-2004, 01:50 AM
I agree the way Ted handles audio tracks is archaic. I was trying to do an M/E track for an international release of a film and it was impossible. I had to do 4 different timelines one for audio Left, one for audio right, one for Voice, and one for sound effects, and then output them separately to a Beta deck.


YIKES!! That's exactly the type of stuff I am talking about.

Here's another story:

A friend has a production company doing 2 shows for the SPEED Network. He was posting shows which had to be turned around within the week after the event was shot. They needed to replace his two Discreet Edit systems since the software was dropped. I told him to check into VT3 about a year ago (he was looking at other systems at the time). He was impressed with the real-time power and the overall quality as he would be mastering to Digibeta.

...BUT...once he found out about the way audio was handled and the lack of defined tracks, he got a little leary of the system. Then he and his editor chatted about it and they realized what kind of nightmares they might have in post with the audio the way it is, plus no way to lock clips to the timeline and fast turn-around time for delivery to the network. Needless to say, they didn't go with VT3. Instead, they spent a TON of money on 2 new AVID Adrenalines and are very happy with the money spent.

Basically I feel it was a missed opportunity for NewTek. If people knew the power of VT and could have all the tools and interface they are used to using, man...I think you'd find more and more people buying into the VT System. But when people are used to using AVIDs, FCPs, etc. and working in that interface, then it's hard to get them to adjust to another way of thinking.

Hope I'm making a valid point. I'm not putting down NewTek or the VT in any way, but I'm just bringing some other perspectives to the table.

Greg

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 03:32 AM
Here's another story:

A friend has a production company doing 2 shows for the SPEED Network. He was posting shows which had to be turned around within the week after the event was shot. They needed to replace his two Discreet Edit systems since the software was dropped.

...

I'm also looking for a replacement for our edit 6.0 system, which, considering the age, is a great performer. I have just this year started to see systems that might be worth considering as a replacement (all of my, personal, factors considered, as in funds, type of jobs, upgrade paths, workflow...). Mind you, our primary job is VFX and visual post, we don't shoot at all.

It looks like the VT is heading in a completely different direction than I assumed when I got our VT[2] ... the LIVE says it all imho.

Too bad (it has some nice concepts), but it probably makes more business sense for NT.

Cheers,
Mike
Oh - anyone want a VT[2] with the SDI board? ;)

JReble
10-07-2004, 06:14 AM
Posted many many moons ago...

"VT3 issues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I've upgraded to VT3 and I've got a few questions / complaints a couple of which I've been grousing about for months.

Why the heck (read h-e-double hockey sticks) can we not record through the balanced line inputs to separate audio tracks still? It is really dumb to have the only balanced line level inputs give you no option to separate the channels for recording to disk. If we could even switch the mic level ins to line level and use one channel from both stereo inputs, as the manual suggests on the rca inputs, that at least would be somethin. Still dumb, but somethin.

And what is the delio with with audio recording levels??
I just want to be able to record any signal to disk at the same level the toaster is showing it receives and outputs through the system. Why for the love of God does the signal in a recorded clip always have to be lower???"


So let me splain.....no there is no time....let me sum up...

Good - Newtek continues development on this platform

Bad - Before each existing version is even fully operational, they stop development in favor of a new paid version.

Bad -The latest version adds some fixes to the last that are STILL expected on the last version.

Bad -The new version requires users to pay for redundant software assuming they used these applications previously as required by the previous version.

Very Bad- The rate of these paid updates is adding up to really penalize users who want to have a properly running system as apposed to getting software fixes on very well documented problems. This thing was promoted as software upgradable. To me that would at least suggest the software would be fixed.

Add all the new stuff everybody want's and charge them accordingly, but dammit, I still need the audio levels to record properly however they are routed, I expect MPEG2 files to work consistently in the timeline for more than a few users, I expect scaling of stills to work without jitter. When I paid to upgrade to VT3, it turned out to need a faster system although my system was deemed fine. This doesn't make me warm and fuzzy about the new system I just got and how it would actually work with the new version. I got some nice new features moving from VTG2 to VT3, but I didn't get what I needed when they dropped development of VT2. I still don't have what I need and am entitled to and I'll be ****ed if they're getting more money from me or anybody I influence until I do get these fixes. If that means a final, proper fix/update to VT3, or a free limited edition upgrade to VT4 or somthing I could care less. It just needs to be corrected so we users who have continued to invest in these systems, in my case who haven't even paid the bill for the latest system, won't feel like our cheese is completely hangin in the breeze. Even Pinnacle Systems, for the love of Pete, are able to fix well documented defects in their systems before dropping development in favor of a new one, and they are constantly phasing them out. The joy of a new system/version does not relieve a company of the responsibility to support/fix problems in the last one that still exist. If this is the track record they are going to set for themselves, I gotta wonder what problems are going to be found in VT4 that won't be addressed either. Vent over......thank you for listening. :(

SBowie
10-07-2004, 06:46 AM
So let me splain.....no there is no time....let me sum up...I'd love it if it could be true that all (or even most) short-comings of earlier versions could be addressed in a final free update -- but honestly, I've never seen that happen with any developer I've dealt with. Some are really quite bad on this count, others better -- but the problem affects all of them.

Given the time and effort involved in a major release and the various pressures to 'get it out there,' it must be difficult to justify keeping dev resources allocated to patches for an old build long into the effort of a new one. It's not as if the desired fixes (and sometimes enhancements) can always be readily transported into the new version; often they would be 'dead-ended,' rendered superfluous by other, larger changes. (They probably also factor in the hope that most will upgrade anyway -- and I expect most will.)

At some point then, any developer inevitably leaves the old version behind and devotes all effort to moving forward. "When" this occurs is a judgement call they have to make. In my view NewTek is as good as any in providing free updates well into the product life. And unlike some, they don't do vaporware or effectively force anyone to 'pre-purchase' sight unseen.

Are they perfect? No, and I don't expect anyone is saying they should be - this is actually a pretty reasonable crowd. Could they swing a little this way or that on some decisions? Sure -- I don't agree with every last decision or policy either. But on the whole I find them to be straight-shooters making a genuine effort to look out for their customers and stand by their products.

In the end, the fairness and wisdom of decisions of this sort will be judged in the harshest court of all - the open market. I bet the decision makers will be keenly interested in the verdict, and responsive to it if necessary.

jcupp
10-07-2004, 07:24 AM
So since I upgraded my VT2 to VT3 in Oct 2003 does this mean my upgrade cost is $795 or am I misunderstanding this somehow?
That's Sept - Oct. 2004 for the $795 upgrade price.

jcupp
10-07-2004, 07:38 AM
But on the other hand I have a customer who is doing fast turn around sports shows for national cable networks who is buying his third VT system because they just picked up another similar gig and has to hirer more staff and build a bigger facility. He credits his success to the speed at which he gets things done with the VT and has never complained about any audio features or lack therof to me.

Maybe it's a matter of working style rather than the particular feature set that is predictive of happiness with VT Edit. I use a combination of discipline about how I build my time lines, color coding and judicious use of sub projects to keep organized, works for me.
But different strokes... ya know.


YIKES!! That's exactly the type of stuff I am talking about.

Here's another story:

A friend has a production company doing 2 shows for the SPEED Network. He was posting shows which had to be turned around within the week after the event was shot. They needed to replace his two Discreet Edit systems since the software was dropped. I told him to check into VT3 about a year ago (he was looking at other systems at the time). He was impressed with the real-time power and the overall quality as he would be mastering to Digibeta.

...BUT...once he found out about the way audio was handled and the lack of defined tracks, he got a little leary of the system. Then he and his editor chatted about it and they realized what kind of nightmares they might have in post with the audio the way it is, plus no way to lock clips to the timeline and fast turn-around time for delivery to the network. Needless to say, they didn't go with VT3. Instead, they spent a TON of money on 2 new AVID Adrenalines and are very happy with the money spent.

Basically I feel it was a missed opportunity for NewTek. If people knew the power of VT and could have all the tools and interface they are used to using, man...I think you'd find more and more people buying into the VT System. But when people are used to using AVIDs, FCPs, etc. and working in that interface, then it's hard to get them to adjust to another way of thinking.

Hope I'm making a valid point. I'm not putting down NewTek or the VT in any way, but I'm just bringing some other perspectives to the table.

Greg

JReble
10-07-2004, 07:47 AM
Steve,

I'll agree with you on most points. However, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon about how Newtek is great at providing free support / fixes / updates well into the life of their product anymore. I used Pinnacle as an example because between you, me, and the world, they are awful in my experience. But at the very least they eventually get around to fixing problems with their software. I've gotten no less than 6 version updates and upgrades for the last pinnacle board I purchased. They had moved onto other boards and still there were patches and updates to fix outstanding problems. Sure many folks got a little bent outa shape when they officially announced it would not be supported any longer, but you know what? Everything it was supposed to do it did properly when they were done.

We like to praise a company that does good by its customer, and that's not a bad idea. Sometimes we need to get off the happy meals a little and let them know when they're screwing up. That's the best test of any company, how they respond in crisis. How many updates did we see for VT3. I didn't note much in that department. And why wasn't the audio level and meters issue ever put to bed properly? That was a problem from the start with VT2. Sure they tweaked it a little, but it's never been fixed and everyone knows it. We got almost nothing but silence on that and now, behold, a new feature to make you buy another upgrade, "improved audio". Another way to look at that for everyone who is or has used VT2 and VT3 is, "defective audio". "Image-Super Scaling", translation, "Defective Image scaling fix".

Bottom line, I'm just noting a significant failing here that is not washed away by fancy new features, and some enthusiatic users. This is establishing a clear track record that all, or even all substantial bugs, WILL NOT be worked out of these systems before they move onto the the next "less than perfect" release. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect quality. All these great features, and there are plenty, does not make up for a few defects related to fundamental issues like audio and and image quality. The fact that they have a new version to concentrate on does not releve them of their responsibilities to address problems in the last unless everyone is entitled to the new version for free. If you wanna make a new version to charge for, you're saying that the last one is done. I''ve patiently waited and am still waiting on some things to be fixed. If they don't want to fix it, then they darn well owe something to the people they're leaving hangin.

I probably would like to upgrade to the new features at some point, but I sure as heck am not the least bit comfortable doing so with the precedent being set now for at least the second time. This is getting like sleazy used car sales. Sell them a lemon, then when they come back to complain you sell them a more expensive lemon at a discount. Now I'm not calling VT3 a lemon, but I think I make my point. You're not gonna be happy if you buy a car and it works, but keeps backfiring. You're sure not gonna be happy when you take it to be fixed and they tell you, we won't fix it, but we'll give you a discount on this here bigger car. That's what I'm on about. This ain't the best way to handle things. I think they can do right by all of us reasonable customers, but it's gonna take more than that kind of approach. I think this is where Newtek shows us all what they're really made of. :(

eon5
10-07-2004, 08:15 AM
As for post production (which is the ONLY thing I use it for), I'd say the upgrade price for the software only is WAY TOO steep for what's offered. Greg



Basically I feel it was a missed opportunity for NewTek.

If people knew the power of VT and could have all the tools and interface they are used to using, man...I think you'd find more and more people buying into the VT System.

But when people are used to using AVIDs, FCPs, etc. and working in that interface, then it's hard to get them to adjust to another way of thinking.
Greg

yep... let me see

LW8 ? --> dont needed (LW7 is just ok)
Aura 2.5 --> same product, no upgrade.
DVD editing solutions --> dont needed
VTedit editing solutions ( logical and practical) --> needed but VT4 havent its !
Premiere/AE plugins support --> not implemented
HD support --> any1 knows nothing about it

soft price u$ 995.-

oh, jezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! :(



why not to sold a cheap VT4SE upgrade with only VTedit upgrade ? :cool:

SBowie
10-07-2004, 08:30 AM
I'll agree with you on most points. That's because you're a reasonable sort of fellow, as are most here. I appreciate that you articulate your view without hyperbole.


How many updates did we see for VT3. Three updates followed the release, if memory serves.


behold, a new feature to make you buy another upgrade, "improved audio".I can agree that the audio in earlier versions wasn't as good as it could have been. As you point out, there were a number of steps taken to attempt to improve it (I think it had improved noticeably, but agree it still had room to go.)

That being said, the audio enhancements in this new version really do represent a lot more than a mere 'fix for defective audio' -- all the latter would have taken to satisfy many was some VU-style calibration and better levels. We are getting a great deal more than that.

Apart from that I can respect your view and the way you present it. I wish there could be a compromise -- perhaps an upgrade path providing just the new VT-Edit version with CG as an 'e-version', or something along those lines. But the effort involved in offering several alternatives (marketing, support, packaging, registration, etc.) might well outweigh and offset the imagined savings that would permit a price moderation; or there might be technical reasons for not doing so.

Anyway, these decisions are well above my pay grade. I guess the whole thing is going to continue to be quite subjective until the results of the decisions are tallied.

AntAT
10-07-2004, 09:15 AM
..........

SBowie
10-07-2004, 09:24 AM
Too bad they only added Quicktime Export and not Import too.It would be lovely to have both, but playing back Quicktime files in realtime within VT-Edit is probably a lot more complicated than compressing them, time not being a factor in the latter.

And remember that there are a ton of Quicktime codecs, from uncompressed on down through Sorenson and MPEG4. It's not simply a matter of figuring out how to play back one type in realtime - someone would always be arguing that this or that one didn't work correctly. I'm not saying it can't be done, because I really don't know -- but I can see why it would be difficult.

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 09:32 AM
It's not simply a matter of figuring out how to play back one type in realtime - someone would always be arguing that this or that one didn't work correctly.
Hi Sbowie,

I think AntAT was refering to importing QTs only, not to realtime playback of QTs (which actually might be possible when writing a frame buffer driver for QT, which would be a neat addition anyhow).
QT in -> convert to RTV -> playback.
Cheers,
Mike

Rich Deustachio
10-07-2004, 09:34 AM
Yes, DVD WS 2 SE does include AC-3 2.0 encoding.

This was told to me by Newtek, I didn't personally test that feature.

If one already has DVD WS 2.2, it's better to just use that, so I did.

The project loader plug-in will work for both of them.


Very cool!!

SBowie
10-07-2004, 09:35 AM
I think AntAT was refering to importing QTs only, not to realtime playback of QTs (which actually might be possible when writing a frame buffer driver for QT, which would be a neat addition anyhow).
QT in -> convert to RTV -> playback.
Importing into what then, Mike - if not VT-Edit? As far as simple import for conversion, we have that now more or less via Aura. I wonder though, now -- could one simply fire up a Quicktime in the QT player, and use that as a VT[4]switcher source?

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 09:43 AM
Importing into what then, Mike - if not VT-Edit? As far as simple import for conversion, we have that now more or less via Aura.
Well, that is the point though. What could be simpler than justing dropping a QT into VT-Edit?
You could also argue: Why QT Export? You could use another tool for that.
If they managed to code QT support, than it shouldn't be too hard to implement an import as well, actually, it is probably easier than the export...

Then again, it might be possible but not on the feature list...

Cheers,
Mike

fda
10-07-2004, 09:52 AM
Jim, I know what you mean about Play/Globalstreams, probably any company you compare with them would look good :D (I'm not even using it as a footstool anymore...)
Glad you're making money with your VT3 and it's paid for itself many times over. Some of us though(or am I the only sucker :D), have not made a penny and never will since it wasn't purchased to make money(education). We just think that the software-only version of the upgrade should be half of what Newtek is asking, excluding LW8 and the DVDsoftware. I'm a newbie here so I'm curious how much was the VT1 to VT2 upgrade or VT2 to VT3 or VT1 to VT3 UPGRADE?


For those newbies around here that don't know the history of Newtek's announcements, they were burned back in the OT (Original Toaster)/Flyer days by pre-announcing ship dates and features and ultimately took a lot of heat for it. I was one of the guys who threw daggers when things weren't delivered on time and with all the promised features...... :o

But y'know what ? I went and bought into that Play nonsense and wasted several thousand dollars on a product that promised everything but a date with Pam Anderson and delivered pretty much nothing, especially in the area of stability. Today, you can go and spend many tens of thousands of dollars for a Globecaster and STILL have to pay thousands each year for the "privilege" of getting the upgrades - without any schedule or promises for features, bug fixes, etc. I think they've only had 1 major release in nearly two years (ask Ted).... 3.0 was just released. Also, try getting the email addy of the lead programmer over there - or the CEO for that matter. Yeah, right. :mad:

I know I rag on GS almost any chance I get :D , but they screwed me (or tried to - I wouldn't give them my money), but my point is, is that we are pretty spoiled compared to most folks with editing solutions who don't know ANYTHING until the product hits the shelf. No input, no nothing. I'm trying to be not too much of a bumkisser here :p or a cheerleader, but to be really honest, I'm getting a lot of work out the door much, much faster than the competitors are. I had a FCP and an Avid guy in the suite last week to visit (I'm in a building with 400 businesses and several production companies), and their jaws dropped to the floor when they saw the VT humming along.

Reality can make you feel pretty bad (and inadequate) at times. :D

So, to make a long story longer :eek: , I don't mind if NT doesn't announce dates and features. I'm making money with my VT efficiently - it has paid for itself more than several times over.

As far as pricing goes, I know that some have to work on a budget and within corporate timetables, but for NT to announce pricing for something that is not even on the drawing board yet is ridiculous. You can easily figure a Newtek ballpark figure by looking at their past pricing structure and adding on 50%. ;)

Now, back to the edit - and more money ! :D

SBowie
10-07-2004, 10:14 AM
Well, that is the point though. What could be simpler than justing dropping a QT into VT-Edit?Well, I just commented on how one could very likely be quite a bit trickier than the other, so I won't repeat it.

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 10:25 AM
Well, I just commented on how one could very likely be quite a bit trickier than the other, so I won't repeat it.
Steve, sorry to ponder on on this, no offense.
Opening and reading out a QT (_not_ for playback, but just to get at the image data), is a couple of lines of code and well documented by apple, including sample code. We're not talking about playing it back in RT, but just:
read frame -> save in RTV - repeat until QT says there aren't any more frames.
Not a _big_ feature, I agree, but for people working with QTs on a daily basis, _so_ much of a workflow improvement.

Cheers,
Mike

Jim Capillo
10-07-2004, 10:28 AM
[snipped]....... I'm a newbie here so I'm curious how much was the VT1 to VT2 upgrade or VT2 to VT3 or VT1 to VT3 UPGRADE?

I didn't have the VT1 board, so I don't know, but as I remember, the VT[2] to [3] was $595.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is a panacea for everyone...... but the VT fits my needs almost perfectly, I can make money with it and it certainly is one of the most cost-effective (if not THE most) solutions on the planet..... for me. I have spent more than a few years in cable access teaching people to edit and I truly believe that the VT is one of the most intuitive interfaces around. Quick example...... I had one of the high school kids sit down at the VT and with him never having seen the interface before, he was editing in less than 5 minutes. He had used FCP and Avid DV before and said that the VT was much easier to use.

As with any purchase, what might be perfect for one person does not work at all for the next. It's up to each individual to decide on his own what is good for him, both production wise and financial wise. I figure [4] will pay for itself in less than 2 weeks (at the rates I charge), so I am a happy guy (for now).

MediaSig
10-07-2004, 10:39 AM
But on the other hand I have a customer who is doing fast turn around sports shows for national cable networks who is buying his third VT system because they just picked up another similar gig and has to hirer more staff and build a bigger facility. He credits his success to the speed at which he gets things done with the VT and has never complained about any audio features or lack therof to me.

Maybe it's a matter of working style rather than the particular feature set that is predictive of happiness with VT Edit. I use a combination of discipline about how I build my time lines, color coding and judicious use of sub projects to keep organized, works for me.
But different strokes... ya know.


I think that's a good point, Jeff. I DO think a lot of it has to do with how one likes to edit and I'm glad they were happy with VT. From my experience of doing this stuff (deadline broadcast material), organization has been more helpful than dscipline just because of how chaotic things can get when deadlines loom. That's why I personally would like to see a more helpful timeline for that kind of organization.

Just my experience.

Greg

John Perkins
10-07-2004, 10:41 AM
Things have kind of drifted off course to features, but here's my take on the upgrade cost issue.

I know that NewTek needs to pay for development costs, a paid upgrade is fine.

However, the damage to customer relations from charging $795 for systems that were bought the day before the announcement will hurt future sales.

Most other companies give about a 3 month buffer for buyers. IMHO, buyers from the last 3 months should get the software upgrade for free. That is just good business. The hardware cost should be charged, that makes perfect sense to me.

To make matters worse, there was no pre-announcement so people were happily buying VT[3] the day before. Being under NDA, we dealers had to either miss possible sales and be morally true to our customers or break the NDA. Not good. We chose the former, BTW, and we sleep just fine.

What will people do when VT[4] gets a little long in the tooth? Sales will dry up over fear that they will be charged $1000 to upgrade a system bought the day before. I don't remember a previous upgrade being handled this way. NewTek was always very generous in this regard.

I've heard several times that we should contact NewTek and they will probably work with the customers, but the memo posted earlier clearly says otherwise.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 11:12 AM
I've heard several times that we should contact NewTek ... NewTek is usually pretty approachable re: individual cases regardless; sometimes it needs the dust to settle a bit before matters are clear.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 11:15 AM
Steve, sorry to ponder on on this, no offense.
Opening and reading out a QT (_not_ for playback, but just to get at the image data), is a couple of lines of code ... If you mean it might be possible to do an 'importer' that converts to RTV, then I agree it is possible. My point is just that I don't see it being similarly easy to simply drag a QT file from a file bin onto the rtimeline and hit play -- without prior conversion. Sorry if I've not expressed it clearly...

AntAT
10-07-2004, 11:55 AM
..........

fda
10-07-2004, 11:55 AM
I agree that higher costs may very well be GOOD news for dealers. If Newtek charges more I assume dealers get a better slice as well :D


This is only good for dealers, most of the VT[3] users have DVD editing solutions and like JReble said very clearly there are allot of issues that have not been addressed. Why should we pay for software upgrades that should have been free fixes?

SBowie
10-07-2004, 12:01 PM
I agree that higher costs may very well be GOOD news for dealers. If Newtek charges more I assume dealers get a better slice as well :D I can assure you that most dealers never make anything remotely like 'good money' on something of this nature. I'd make better money if I offered to paint my neighbor's bathroom.

Providing updates for existing clients, helping them install and get up to speed with it, for most dealers is not about making anything - it's about providing support, and maintaining a relationship.

Original1
10-07-2004, 12:08 PM
This is an optional upgrade, adding features and third-party software. I can understand if you recently bought VT3 and are now upset. Talk to NewTek privately, and I'm pretty sure they'll work something out. I use Encore too, and love it, however I wouldnít use it for everything. This upgrade was made for the wide public. DVD workshop is versatile and can be used by the majority of the VT users. NewTek needs to make money and make MOST customers happy, that's what they're accomplishing. NewTek can never make everyone happy.

I would also like to ask everyone to give NewTek a chance, let some more information come out. Really sink your teeth into all the improvements and then make your judgment.

Thanks-

I am a hobbist and I brought the upgrade to VT[3] less than six months ago.
I already own a full copy of Lightwave 8 when I brought the prerelease of the LW 8 upgrade. So I think Newtek has had enough of my cash for the time being, don't get me wrong I think the VT is a great product, I just think there is a danger of the technology the VT uses being surpassed by other developments.

Maybe I am being a bit naive, but I expected VT[4] to be a generational jump to HDTV.

There are issues with having to upgrade your hardware to use a 64 Bit PCI card.

I would have to change my motherboard, so I may just sell the VT[3] and buy a VT[4] if I really need it, having spent $1200 on the last 2 upgrades, I cant justify spending that sort of money right now.

What about a release 4 of VT[3] which fixes some of the outstanding Issues with VT[3] I understand that some people have a few gripes about the CG in VT[3]
Newtek did something simular with the release of Lightwave 7.5d

I will be honest I don't make enough use I of the VT[3] to justify shelling out that kind of bucks right now

SBowie
10-07-2004, 12:13 PM
There are issues with having to upgrade your hardware to use a 64 Bit PCI card. I would have to change my motherboard ....I just want to correct this poiint - the VTPro card, we now know for certain, is a 32bit card and will work in a standard 32bit PCI slot. It will work *better* at 66mHz, but will work in a 33.

kleima
10-07-2004, 12:27 PM
Greg,

I agree totally with your desire for audio track mute etc., infact, I have been at the forefront of asking for the same things you mentioned.

However, I don't think one would need an entirely different interface in order to implement these features!

fda
10-07-2004, 12:36 PM
Sorry, but I find it a little hard to believe that being a Newtek dealer is not about making anything, but just "about providing support, and maintaining a relationship." I think that when you say 'good money' that is relative to one's idea of good money. To some $100 is nothing, to others it is a whole day's hard work.
I understand it's a hassle providing support, long time ago I had tried building/selling PCs and when I wasn't making "anything" worth the hassle, I quit. But then maybe Newtek dealers are all philanthropic altruists :D


I can assure you that most dealers never make anything remotely like 'good money' on something of this nature. I'd make better money if I offered to paint my neighbor's bathroom.

Providing updates for existing clients, helping them install and get up to speed with it, for most dealers is not about making anything - it's about providing support, and maintaining a relationship.

Original1
10-07-2004, 12:38 PM
I just want to correct this poiint - the VTPro card, we now know for certain, is a 32bit card and will work in a standard 32bit PCI slot. It will work *better* at 66mHz, but will work in a 33.

from http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/10-06-04a.html

VT-Pro I/O Card:

* 66MHz ĺ Length PCI Card
* 4 Channel audio support
* Operates internally in D1 Component
* Supports Component, Y/C, and Composite I/O, NTSC and PAL
* Integrated Genlock
* Live Preview Out
* Alpha Channel Output

Are you sure steve? this was from their own press release

HOW! right hand not know what left hand is doing ;)

SBowie
10-07-2004, 12:54 PM
Sorry, but I find it a little hard to believe that being a Newtek dealer is not about making anythingThat's not really what I said, but I can tell you there's not enough money involved IN UPGRADES to be bothered were it not just as I said... unless maybe you're striclty running a mail order house, not a hands-on service oriented dealership.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 12:55 PM
from http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/10-06-04a.html Are you sure steve? this was from their own press release
Oh, I'm sure. I know because I was corrected (thank you all.) Note that your info does not mention 64bit.

kleima
10-07-2004, 12:56 PM
66 mhz is NOT the same as 64 bit.

robewil
10-07-2004, 12:58 PM
Sorry, but I find it a little hard to believe that being a Newtek dealer is not about making anything, but just "about providing support, and maintaining a relationship." I think that when you say 'good money' that is relative to one's idea of good money. To some $100 is nothing, to others it is a whole day's hard work.
I understand it's a hassle providing support, long time ago I had tried building/selling PCs and when I wasn't making "anything" worth the hassle, I quit. But then maybe Newtek dealers are all philanthropic altruists :DI was a dealer for the original Amiga Video Toaster. In late 1989, when it first shipped, it had a retail price of $1595 and dealer cost was about $1525, thus forcing us to sell it at "full retail" and make very little on it. I remember how hard it was to convince our customers that we weren't making a killing on it. Laer, Newtek raised the retail price to $2495. They raised the dealer cost to but gave us a little elbow room.

I've been out of that business for 8 years (thank god) but I'll bet things haven't changed in that regard. This is why good dealers who support what they sell are so hard to find and should be highly valued.

fda
10-07-2004, 12:59 PM
beat me to it :)

66 mhz is NOT the same as 64 bit.

Original1
10-07-2004, 01:02 PM
I believe one reason the software upgrade is so high this time is because they include a third-party DVD Authoring program (DVD Workshop 2 SE). This software alone, costs $500 and I'm sure Newtek pays a lot less than that per upgrade, they can justify the price.



Actually if this is ULead DVD workshop 2 the full version is less than $400 so the cut back version bundled thats normally bundled with OEM stuff probably costs Newtek around $80 so I don't agree with your argument, but thats by the by I think there are a number of users who feel that issues and bug fixes that should have been fixed in VT[2] have not been adressed and yet they are being asked to pay through the nose for features which should have been built into VT[2] in their opinion.

Since all I use VT for at the moment is to output Lightwave animations to tape it does not affect me commercially, but I can see some users point of view.

I thought both the Lightwave 8 upgrade and VT 2 to VT 3 were fairly hefty in proportion to the base cost of the application so unless I have a genuine commercial need to upgrade I am hanging on to my dollars

fda
10-07-2004, 01:06 PM
Think I was misunderstood, it wasn't meant as a mean jab at dealers I'm sure many end users benefit from 'good helpful dealers'. Personally I never was one to rely on help from dealers, so to me cost was always more important than telephone/email support. My point was that Dealers of course would not be complaining about the cost/price issue I brought up because it doesn't hurt them as it does some of the rest of us endusers who just activated couple months ago, never used the VT3 and also never used any of Newtek's or dealer's time for any support. :(

I was a dealer for the original Amiga Video Toaster. In late 1989, when it first shipped, it had a retail price of $1595 and dealer cost was about $1525, thus forcing us to sell it at "full retail" and make very little on it. I remember how hard it was to convince our customers that we weren't making a killing on it. Laer, Newtek raised the retail price to $2495. They raised the dealer cost to but gave us a little elbow room.

I've been out of that business for 8 years (thank god) but I'll bet things haven't changed in that regard. This is why good dealers who support what they sell are so hard to find and should be highly valued.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 01:06 PM
I've been out of that business for 8 years (thank god) but I'll bet things haven't changed in that regard. This is why good dealers who support what they sell are so hard to find and should be highly valued.Thanks for that -- there are of course a few bucks in the deal for dealers, not a heck of a lot -- and by the time we a) drop our prices to meet online competition and b) cash a few TimBucks (which I routinely give away at NAB Toast parties since they're really no good to me) I'll be doing good to make $2 an hour. This is not what upgrades are about, beleive.

I'm not complaining (much - hehe), just reacting to the notion that dealers are flogging the company line because of all the $$ we make. I wish! If I disagree with a post, it's because I disagree with it ... either the content, or manner in which it was expressed. If I feel it has merit even though it runs counter to my personal best interest, I'll either say so or just shut up.

Original1
10-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Oh, I'm sure. I know because I was corrected (thank you all.) Note that your info does not mention 64bit.


OK I meant 66 mhz, I just came back from a punishing session at the dentist so I make not be compus mentis at the moment, and probably more than unusually bolshie at present.

So what is the hardware difference with this new card just the 4 channels of audio?

SBowie
10-07-2004, 01:14 PM
My point was that Dealers of course would not be complaining about the cost/price issue I brought up because it doesn't hurt them as it does some of the rest of us endusers who just activated couple months ago, never used the VT3 and also never used any of Newtek's or dealer's time for any support. :(Think again, I'm afraid -- speaking only for myself, this couldn't come at a worse time. The only current special for dealers requires them to purchase the entire rig, including SX-84 and RS-8.

I for one can't just afford that right now ( even with all that gold I'm making on overcharging trusting clients ;) ) so I'm going to wind up buying VT[4] and the VTPro card at marginal savings over what you pay at a time when I can least afford it.

robewil
10-07-2004, 01:22 PM
Actually if this is ULead DVD workshop 2 the full version is less than $400 so the cut back version bundled thats normally bundled with OEM stuff probably costs Newtek around $80 so I don't agree with your argument,...My argument isn't about the cost to Newtek, it's about the "perceived value". Newtek can argue that they are bundling $400 dollars worth of software with the DVD Workshop and another $495 for the Lightwave [8] upgrade. Take those two things away and suddenly, the new features in the upgrade seem similar to the upgrade from VT2 to VT3 (I'm talking software upgrade only). I already have Lightwave 8, I already have a DVD authoring solution. These two programs are significant, but not really the core of VT (and yes, I'm aware of Bob Tasa's new product). I just think there should be a $500 upgrade for VT]4] without the added software. It makes sense to me and I bet it makes sense to a lot of us.

jcupp
10-07-2004, 01:47 PM
However, the damage to customer relations from charging $795 for systems that were bought the day before the announcement will hurt future sales.

But were there any sales on Oct 5? I doubt it. I know I didn't let anyone buy the Basic VT[3] package in the secret run up period, told 'um to wait for a few weeks and they would thank me. It would of been stupid to screw someone like that If I am trying to build long term relations with my customers. NewTek didn't want to pre-announce because everytime they do and then miss the date people start screaming. This way it's announced, you can buy it and there are no backorders and no free upgrades to give away which by the way aren't free for NewTek.

If you buy from some box house that doesn't care whether they ever see you again then I guess you get what you paid for (but nothing beyond that). The people I sold the Live bundle to in the last couple of months were carefully hinted to and probed about what features they wanted and needed before the sale was made. And the price they got was good enough that they will still come out ahead if they buy the software upgrade.

So your "damage" is just hypothetical, besides someone is always going to have just missed the free upgrade cutoff date and be pissed.

MediaSig
10-07-2004, 01:50 PM
Greg,

I agree totally with your desire for audio track mute etc., infact, I have been at the forefront of asking for the same things you mentioned.

However, I don't think one would need an entirely different interface in order to implement these features!


Agreed. A total overhaul isn't necessary - but audio organization on the timeline is badly missed in the current versions.

Greg

jcupp
10-07-2004, 02:00 PM
My argument isn't about the cost to Newtek, it's about the "perceived value". Newtek can argue that they are bundling $400 dollars worth of software with the DVD Workshop and another $495 for the Lightwave [8] upgrade. Take those two things away and suddenly, the new features in the upgrade seem similar to the upgrade from VT2 to VT3 (I'm talking software upgrade only). I already have Lightwave 8, I already have a DVD authoring solution. These two programs are significant, but not really the core of VT (and yes, I'm aware of Bob Tasa's new product). I just think there should be a $500 upgrade for VT]4] without the added software. It makes sense to me and I bet it makes sense to a lot of us.

So you are arguing for removing software that, at little actual cost to NewTek, adds value and cutting the price by 50% thereby removing real (not perceived) money from NewTek's coffers? That may not be NewTek's wisest move. See it's added value that will sell the upgrade and many, if not most people see value in DVD WS and LW8.

I think that the price of the upgrade, while it may reduce the number of people who buy it, won't reduce that number by 50%, especially among those who see it demonstrated. So NewTek wins and I think the users win because more money for NewTek means more development at NewTek.

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it, but try to see VT[4] in action before you write it off.

robewil
10-07-2004, 02:09 PM
So you are arguing for removing software that, at little actual cost to NewTek, adds value and cutting the price by 50% thereby removing real (not perceived) money from NewTek's coffers? That may not be NewTek's wisest move. See it's added value that will sell the upgrade and many, if not most people see value in DVD WS and LW8.That's why I'm suggesting a second optional upgrade for those of us who already have Lightwave [8] and a DVD solution. I can't believe that there are very many VT[3] users who decided that since DVD authoring wasn't included with VT[3], then it can't be done. I'm sure many of us are going to keep on using our existing DVD solution. Newtek should bundle the DVD Workshop and Lightwave in every new VT]4] and offer them as an upgrade as well. I would like to see a second choice because, quite frankly, I'm not spending $995 for a VT]4] upgrade.

fda
10-07-2004, 02:11 PM
Ok, to reiterate, the heartache was over the $1K software-only upgrade cost from VT3 to VT4. If you had used Toaster since VT1 than $1K for VT4 from VT1 or even VT2 would be a great deal of course. (Also I think Jim mentioned the major upgrades used to be $595 before.) But what if you bought VT3 some months ago 'after' which there were no more updates, some would say you're luck since you bought it when it was 'mature/stable' though you may think you deserved some updates and/or fixes. Now I had no idea of bugs in VT3 since I was just about to start using it yesterday(when I was shocked to see VT4 is OUT!) after activating it only couple months ago. Sorry for the redundancy but thread was moving all over.

John Perkins
10-07-2004, 02:13 PM
But you agree that we had to hurt sales to avoid the mess? Putting off a customer who is ready to buy is a bad thing in any industry. Luckily, there are dealers like us who do care about our clients.

Considering the upgrade policy of Matrox, Canopus, Pinnacle, etc., this just doesn't seem fair to the customer. For example, Matrox always gives away Premiere upgrades that are backdated for months and Matrox doesn't even write Premiere. I would think the software cost to Newtek would be much less than Premiere is for Matrox.

I'm not trying to prove a point, it is unprovable. It is a buisness decision that could have gone either way. It just seems a little harsh on recent customers.

jcupp
10-07-2004, 02:33 PM
That's why I'm suggesting a second optional upgrade for those of us who already have Lightwave [8] and a DVD solution. I can't believe that there are very many VT[3] users who decided that since DVD authoring wasn't included with VT[3], then it can't be done. I'm sure many of us are going to keep on using our existing DVD solution. Newtek should bundle the DVD Workshop and Lightwave in every new VT]4] and offer them as an upgrade as well. I would like to see a second choice because, quite frankly, I'm not spending $995 for a VT]4] upgrade.

But as I've said before you want NewTek to take out $50 of cost but lower the price by $500 to increase sales by 20%. This is bad business. I'm selling this upgrade faster than I did the vt[3] upgrade so I think NewTek has made the right decision and my customers look like they are going to be ok with the price and I haven't even demoed it for anyone yet. :cool:

James Moore
10-07-2004, 02:37 PM
Greg,

I agree totally with your desire for audio track mute etc., infact, I have been at the forefront of asking for the same things you mentioned.

However, I don't think one would need an entirely different interface in order to implement these features!

To selectively mute and unmute multiple items in VTEdit, I setup a toolshed preset for each. Then highlight all items I want muted, perform, and they are muted. Click on the unmute preset and they are all back on again. Not quite like specifying a 'track' but similar.

robewil
10-07-2004, 02:50 PM
I'm selling this upgrade faster than I did the vt[3] upgrade so I think NewTek has made the right decision and my customers look like they are going to be ok with the price and I haven't even demoed it for anyone yet. :cool:More power to you, then. :)

Mary Hoffman
10-07-2004, 02:51 PM
Does the full $495 version of DVD Workshop come with VT4?
No, I believe it's the SE (Special Edition) version.

Original1
10-07-2004, 03:03 PM
If you buy from some box house that doesn't care whether they ever see you again then I guess you get what you paid for (but nothing beyond that).

Thats just the point not everyone is as clued in or kept as up to date as the US dealers, especially not in Europe. and this can be quite damaging to Newteks reputation in the UK.

kleima
10-07-2004, 03:07 PM
James,

I don't know how you do that, because for me, mute and unmute are not affected by the toolshed!!???

I have tried that. If it worked, it would be an acceptable alternative. I know others who have verified the same thing.

:confused:

gstonebank
10-07-2004, 03:07 PM
My take on the upgrade...

Hardware upgrade:

PCI?, surely this is not a good time to launch another PCI device. I have been using the same VT board since VT1, if I upgrade now, how long will it be before I will be forced to upgrade again because PCI will slowly be phased out from motherboards in favour of PCIe. If it was a PCIe device I would upgrade @ $1000.

Lightwave full version:

As a LW8 (standalone) user I have NEVER used the bundled LW. As I only use VT for post and charge per hour, it is not practical to have the VT tied up for hours/days doing animation in LW.

Aura:

I use Aura all the time while editing...but I wouldn't if I had say DFX+ (or AE or combustion or even BorisFX) as part of the bundle. Now that the new DFX+ has a 3D workspace it makes even more sense. In a facility environment a non-destructive workflow is important & this is where Aura, as an effects package fails.

DVD Workshop:

No thanks, rather offer a 'VT owners' discount from Ulead eg $250 & drop the VT upgrade price by the same amount. That figure is just a thumbsuck but then at least those of us who already own DVD authoring software or don't want to use Ulead's software have the option.

VT software updates:

All welcome...I would pay $500 just for these improvements.


So my dream VT[4] POST upgrade paths would be:

- $500 for software upgrade (leaving LW VT & Aura as they are)
- $1500 for software/hardware(PCIe) upgrade (leaving LW VT & Aura as they are)

'VT Owner' discounts from their respective owners:

- DFX+ (no modules): $500
- Ulead DVD Workshop 2 SE: $250
- Mirage: $500
- Lightwave 8: $500

This way I could customize my VT with the tools I need without paying extra for the tools I don't. I realise that some of my ideas may not be practical from a business sense (I don't know what deals can be made through bundling packages) but this is how I would prefer to see my upgrade paths.

I am obviously biased towards post, but I am sure there are many others out there doing the same. We are now in post on our fourth 'Popstars' series, all cut on VT1, 2 & 3 along with many other programmes & commercials. We currently average about 160 hours per month on each VT[3] so there is no doubt in my mind that VT is an excellent and capable post system. Let's have a post optimised VT[4] soon....

Graeme Stonebank
Versatex Facilities

jcupp
10-07-2004, 03:12 PM
But you agree that we had to hurt sales to avoid the mess? Putting off a customer who is ready to buy is a bad thing in any industry. Luckily, there are dealers like us who do care about our clients.

Considering the upgrade policy of Matrox, Canopus, Pinnacle, etc., this just doesn't seem fair to the customer. For example, Matrox always gives away Premiere upgrades that are backdated for months and Matrox doesn't even write Premiere. I would think the software cost to Newtek would be much less than Premiere is for Matrox.

I'm not trying to prove a point, it is unprovable. It is a buisness decision that could have gone either way. It just seems a little harsh on recent customers.

I didn't lose any sales, I made long term customers since I could've screwed them and didn't and they know it.

James Moore
10-07-2004, 03:18 PM
kliema,

I am on VT4 and I did try it just before making that post.

To do it, I loaded an audio file in with nothing done to it. I clicked mute and then in toolshed 'new' and saved it as mute. I then unmuted that file, clicked new again and saved it as unmute. The first time I tried unmute it didn't seem to work, but I went in to the plus sign in the tool shed beside audio, which expands all of its features and made sure it was acitve. I also clicked the tick mark on and off for the mute button.

It has worked multiple times since for me. give it one more try and see if you can get it to stick in VT3...otherwise, it is a fix that has happened in VT4.

jcupp
10-07-2004, 03:23 PM
I take it you were a Beta Tester to VT3 since I bought the upgrade the week it came out last year - and that was in August (August/September) of 2003 if I remember correctly.

I didn't think VT3 had been officially out for 2 years now.

Greg


...Hmm...maybe I'm wrong...was it July of 2003?

No, I was a beta tester and I rounded to the nearest year :)

kleima
10-07-2004, 03:32 PM
James,

Oh, VT[4] would explain. Has it worked for you on VT[3], because I have tried multiple times without success?

James Moore
10-07-2004, 03:38 PM
I can't remember trying it on VT3, to tell you the truth. I urge you to try it one more time, maybe the clicking about in the controls within toolshed will help.

If not, one more small reason to upgrade ;) I was just messing with the VGA capture thing...its cool!

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 03:44 PM
Aha... using T3 (Mr T4 Moore :p ) I found the trick is the toolshed handling.

After I made the Toolshed preset I had to expand the preset, click the active box(s), then the preset worked fine. Which, yes, is what you said James, but I said it with a little picture. :D

So it does work here kleima.

Jim




kliema,

I am on VT4 and I did try it just before making that post.

To do it, I loaded an audio file in with nothing done to it. I clicked mute and then in toolshed 'new' and saved it as mute. I then unmuted that file, clicked new again and saved it as unmute. The first time I tried unmute it didn't seem to work, but I went in to the plus sign in the tool shed beside audio, which expands all of its features and made sure it was acitve. I also clicked the tick mark on and off for the mute button.

It has worked multiple times since for me. give it one more try and see if you can get it to stick in VT3...otherwise, it is a fix that has happened in VT4.

James Moore
10-07-2004, 03:51 PM
nice pix!!

If you expand the toolshed stuff even more you can deselect the master volume ect so that you don't inadvertantly change it aroung whilst muting and unmuting. Glad to hear it is working in VT3!

videoguy
10-07-2004, 03:58 PM
it is 66 MHZ not 64 bit there is a difference

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 04:00 PM
Hey James,

Speaking of tool shed. Any difference with it in T4?

SBowie
10-07-2004, 04:03 PM
'VT Owner' discounts from their respective owners:

- Mirage: $500
Well, part of your dream came true, Graeme -- there is already a discount on Mirage for Aura/VT and LW users. The deal right now is US$395 (I'll do even better than that), and it includes one of these:

James Moore
10-07-2004, 04:06 PM
I don't think there is anything specifically different in the Tool Shed. There are all the other new features, like EQ and Compression etc. that should be 'captureable' by the tool shed.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 04:07 PM
If not, one more small reason to upgrade ;) I was just messing with the VGA capture thing...its cool!Hey James -- yesterday (or was it early this morning) I mused aloud as to whether this could be used to capture the output of the Quicktime player as a Switcher Input. I just read in another thread that someone tried it and it worked! -- Coolio!!

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 04:08 PM
<snip> and it includes one of these:

Man, I don't now what the he!! that is, but I want one.
:cool:


(thats a great deal on a GAAAREAT piece of software.)

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 04:10 PM
I don't think there is anything specifically different in the Tool Shed. There are all the other new features, like EQ and Compression etc. that should be 'captureable' by the tool shed.


rats, I was hoping for some organizational tools or folders or such.
Or at least the ability to expand the box so you can read long tool names.

Thanks

SBowie
10-07-2004, 04:11 PM
Man, I don't now what the he!! that is, but I want one.
:cool: It's a Power Mate, and it's even much cooler than it looks (though it matches my Antec 160 VERY nicely). I played with one at SIGGRAPH and fel in love. It has a beautiful finish and quality, excellent tactile feel, and is truly useful.

James Moore
10-07-2004, 04:12 PM
yeah, it seems to capture just about anything running on the desktop (except Windows Media Player). I think its most prominant use will be for creating educational shows for softwares. For example, Load mirage, select it as your window for vga capture, turn on a mic (turn down the input bypass) hit record program out on your VT and demonstrate away. Also taking all those Corporate Power point presentations and sticking them to vhs so they can show their significant other at home http://vbulletin.newtek.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=218488#
EEK!

3DBob
10-07-2004, 04:17 PM
I agree with gstonebanks' points - I never use the LW with the toaster I always use one of my other licences - mostly the LW[8] licence that the majority of my plugins are tied to - especially now it has FPRIME.

I have a Great workflow with TMPGENC & TMPGENC DVD Author that fulfills 90% of my needs so why would I want a specific DVD package and pay extra?

I do love Aura and have been using it for years (since TVPaint on the Amiga) - but it is destructive and as filters are added to the toaster - I can see this being used less and less.

This upgrade for VT[3] owners like me is certainly NOT a no-brainer, is the plot being lost I wonder? I need some serious justification please. NT - $995 with no replacement board - why sell a crippled upgrade from the outset? Please make a more industry aware upgrade path available to us long time loyal users and remember us UK users have to pay through the nose for it too. I've sold a few VT[3]s through verbal recommendation - tell me what I should say to a prospective buyer now? It's embarrassing to see what you can get elsewhere for the upgrade fee for post work.

Head in sand me thinks.

3DBob

David
10-07-2004, 04:23 PM
I would be happy with a software only upgrade to VT[4], without Lightwave 8 and DVD 2SE. That included multiple audio track processing (similar to traditional non-linear editing programs eg: . . . FC, Avid, Premiere Pro . . . etc.).

This "upgrade" seems more appealing to "Live" productions than the post environment. Yes, I know brown nosing dealer enthusiasts think it is too much to ask of the beloved NEWTEK to do so much R&D, but look around everyone is into the HD/HDV market and post production houses need a VT edit with separate audio tracks., That would be a real VT[4]. I would be willing to shell out $2000.00 for that upgrade!!!

I donít get me wrong I love VT[3] but I think we just turned down the wrong path (leaving post production in the dust). May be new customers will like this product but donít piss off your base. Or you could end up like Amiga!!!

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 04:32 PM
Just want to throw in , that I have already seen dealers with a lower price than 1000 for the sw only and much lower if you bought a T3 within the last few months, so this is not as much $$ as the msrp makes it seem.

Check with your favorite dealer.

Geomagnetica
10-07-2004, 04:36 PM
I donít get me wrong I love VT[3] but I think we just turned down the wrong path (leaving post production in the dust). May be new customers will like this product but donít piss off your base. Or you could end up like Amiga!!!

Or you could also end up like Globalstreams. :D

fda
10-07-2004, 05:11 PM
If this is true means that Newtek "is" giving it for much lower prices in certain circumstances?? :D


Just want to throw in , that I have already seen dealers with a 850 price for the sw only and 500-600 if you bought a T3 within the last few months, so this is not as much $$ as the msrp makes it seem.

PIZAZZ
10-07-2004, 05:19 PM
If this is true means that Newtek "is" giving it for much lower prices in certain circumstances?? :D

No Fda, that is a perfect example of how some dealers devalue a product line. Instead of selling their experience and expertise, they are just trying to Walmart out as much product as possible.

Newtek's pricing to the dealers is pretty much the same across the board. There are levels but not really large ones compared to some sound manufacturers I have sold before.

fda
10-07-2004, 05:25 PM
Not sure if I understood you :confused: , are you saying that those dealers which Jim_C said were selling software ONLY version for $500-600 were selling it for less than they paid for it, ie losing money?? I figured that Newtek had sold those dealers some copies at much reduced prices to take care of unhappy VT3 customers who woke up to see VT4 after barely installing VT3.


No Fda, that is a perfect example of how some dealers devalue a product line. Instead of selling their experience and expertise, they are just trying to Walmart out as much product as possible.

Newtek's pricing to the dealers is pretty much the same across the board. There are levels but not really large ones compared to some sound manufacturers I have sold before.

PIZAZZ
10-07-2004, 05:27 PM
Not sure if I understood you :confused: , are you saying that those dealers which Jim_C said were selling software ONLY version for $500-600 were selling it for less than they paid for it, ie losing money?? I figured that Newtek had sold those dealers some copies at much reduced prices to take care of unhappy VT3 customers who woke up to see VT4 after barely installing VT3.

Check your PM. I do not wish to discuss this publicly.

videoguy
10-07-2004, 05:27 PM
i think the hardest thing in this industry is pricing. i fight it everyday to charge what i am worth , dealers face this as well

Jim_C
10-07-2004, 05:32 PM
:o

lalala
10 characters

SBowie
10-07-2004, 07:12 PM
Not sure if I understood you :confused: , are you saying that those dealers which Jim_C said were selling software ONLY version for $500-600 were selling it for less than they paid for it, ie losing money?? No-one is selling it for $5-600. As Jef said, authorized dealers basically get the same price and that would represent a very real loss. Inevitably some mail-order places, especially the less reputable ones, can be found slicing the margins so thin it's ridiculous, but you are not going to find the upgrade for that price, or anything like it, period.

As I said elsewhere, there's little enough in this sort of thing already for dealers. You might get some kind of a deal by doing some bundling (basically letting the purchase of something else subsidize an 'apparent' cut) but otherwise there's no way anyone is shaving $100's off this, period.

Bobt
10-07-2004, 07:18 PM
Hey all you doom and gloom guys. :D

As I was driving home today I started to gain perspective.
Let me see yesterday I was wondering if it would rain soon and
how nice a fall we were having here in Chicago.
Then this thread started.
I found it interesting that we were all editing watching the day
go by just yesterday and because someone offered you
something you did not like everyone got upset.
I too thought MAN thats a LOT of money and LIKE WOW
I cant justify that etc. etc.
Then, I said wait a minute I dont have to buy one!
Thats how people vote, with their wallets.

You actually dont need to get upset or angry a fine list
of things before you spend your bucks and the rest is
up to Newtek.

If they give it to ya. GREAT! If they dont. You vote with your
wallet. You continue enjoying the day or start poking around ebay.

Thats the true choice. Stay dont upgrade, upgrade or change.

There are logical reasons for any one of those choices.
Me and Robert Wilson have found a big part of our nirvana
in LWConnect. I know LITTLE about LW but I know how to hit F9
and F10 and hit the move button. I am getting some amazing art
from amazing people.
http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=109644748386803&forumid=123

This is just a start of things. Me and Robert have chated about much
much more.
Basically I am sure this will put Boris to shame and make HollywoodFX
a distant memory.

Then there is my BobsMulticam. Makes editing multi track long
form faster than anything on the planet.

I am, and am not, trying to toot my own horn here.
What I am saying is there is life in this old box of mine and its
pretty cool at that. At T3 or at T4

So before you all go storming off. Take a peek. I think there are
some things still here that you can find no where else.
Least I think so. :)

Bob

jcupp
10-07-2004, 07:23 PM
Think again, I'm afraid -- speaking only for myself, this couldn't come at a worse time. The only current special for dealers requires them to purchase the entire rig, including SX-84 and RS-8.

I for one can't just afford that right now ( even with all that gold I'm making on overcharging trusting clients ;) ) so I'm going to wind up buying VT[4] and the VTPro card at marginal savings over what you pay at a time when I can least afford it.

Yeah NewTek doesn't give them to us dealers I had to buy mine. In fact I'll end up buying more then one before it's said and done. And obviously it is easier to sell a $595 upgrade than a $995 but like Steve always says that's why we get the big bucks! :D

jcupp
10-07-2004, 07:44 PM
Thats just the point not everyone is as clued in or kept as up to date as the US dealers, especially not in Europe. and this can be quite damaging to Newteks reputation in the UK.

I keep hearing this from European users, don't the dealers in Europe have any way to communicate with San Antonio? I don't get how they expect to make a business of selling expensive equipment like this with such poor customer service. Most of our communication with NewTek is done via EMail so it shouldn't be a big deal. :confused:

Maybe this is a business opportunity for one of those event videographers whose only getting $400 for a Wedding!

SBowie
10-07-2004, 07:47 PM
I keep hearing this from European users, don't the dealers in Europe have any way to communicate with San Antonio?Last time I checked, Canada was not in Europe, and yet things don't always make it all the way up here either. Don't get me going on this....

jbcaro
10-07-2004, 08:00 PM
Well, part of your dream came true, Graeme -- there is already a discount on Mirage for Aura/VT and LW users. The deal right now is US$395 (I'll do even better than that), and it includes one of these:


Ok, I'll bite. It looks like a jog wheel through USB, but isn't USB supposed to be disabled on a VT system? At least that's what my dealer told me and the way he setup my system.

Also, I didn't realize that Mirage was upgradable if you had Aura/VT which I do (VT[3], and maybe VT[4] soon. I guess I will be calling you about that upgrade unless there is a better (read that closer) dealer out here in Arizona. Don't think my system integrator carries it and he is a 2+ hour drive anyway.

jbcaro :D

PIZAZZ
10-07-2004, 08:14 PM
Ok, I'll bite. It looks like a jog wheel through USB, but isn't USB supposed to be disabled on a VT system? At least that's what my dealer told me and the way he setup my system.

Also, I didn't realize that Mirage was upgradable if you had Aura/VT which I do (VT[3], and maybe VT[4] soon. I guess I will be calling you about that upgrade unless there is a better (read that closer) dealer out here in Arizona. Don't think my system integrator carries it and he is a 2+ hour drive anyway.

jbcaro :D

The Griffin Shuttle is a pretty cool conversation piece. I have one on my desk also to turn the audio up and down on my pc. I never really could get it working very well with VT so we went to Shuttlepros and JLCoopers. Much better but you pay for it.

Why in the world would your dealer tell you to disable USB? that is crazy. We have never heard of such a thing. We use USB all the time. No issues. You need to find a new dealer brother. Where in Arizona are you?

We are a dealer for Mirage and we are somewhat close to you. Ok... so not that close. Actually we are pretty far away. Other side of Texas. BUT I have a friend that will deliver it to your door.... :)

jbcaro
10-07-2004, 08:28 PM
Why in the world would your dealer tell you to disable USB? that is crazy. We have never heard of such a thing. We use USB all the time. No issues. You need to find a new dealer brother. Where in Arizona are you?



I'm in the Phoenix metro area. My dealer said it needed to be disabled because USB is a constantly polling bus, therefore using CPU cycles taking away from what VT needs.

BTW, I used the miniBOB link at bottom of your post and it takes me to a page that doesn't appear to go anywhere. All the links just show the same page for me. I hope that's not by design. :eek: I may be getting rid of my SX-8 (don't really need and and might want to get a miniBOB in its place.

Anyway, I will be calling someone about the Mirage upgrade shortly.

thanks,
jbcaro :p :D :)

PIZAZZ
10-07-2004, 09:01 PM
I'm in the Phoenix metro area. My dealer said it needed to be disabled because USB is a constantly polling bus, therefore using CPU cycles taking away from what VT needs.

BTW, I used the miniBOB link at bottom of your post and it takes me to a page that doesn't appear to go anywhere. All the links just show the same page for me. I hope that's not by design. :eek: I may be getting rid of my SX-8 (don't really need and and might want to get a miniBOB in its place.

Anyway, I will be calling someone about the Mirage upgrade shortly.

thanks,
jbcaro :p :D :)

Thanks for bringing the website issue to my attention. That is something new today. I will get after my host tomorrow.

Currently the miniBOB is not being produced but who knows about the future. :)

Your dealer is on something btw. Unless you are editing on something really really low power, I believe he is sadly mistaken. I guess he turned off the firewire port too since it could take away CPU cycles.... Sorry couldn't resist.

SBowie
10-07-2004, 09:11 PM
I'm in the Phoenix metro area. My dealer said it needed to be disabled because USB is a constantly polling bus, therefore using CPU cycles taking away from what VT needs.That's ridiculous, frankly, though I'm sure he meant well.

Anyway, the PowerMate works particularly nicely with Mirage, augmenting a Wacom stylus beautifully (both connected to my Mirage/VT host system via USB.)

deandec
10-07-2004, 10:39 PM
Figured I'd weigh in on this upgrade thread. Maybe Newtek will read it. I wouldn't pay $1800 or whatever to upgrade to hardware that doesn't do HD. Ridiculous. Has Newtek seen those Decklink cards? I'm thinking if they get their act together that Decklink / Premiere might be my next upgrade. Got a demo of Premiere and it looked pretty good. VT3 is working great for me now but the audio issues and lack of multi-layer edl import and edl export of any kind made me feel like there were unkept promises on VT3. Is it likely now that VT3 is dead ended like VT2? Too bad but I'm not enough of a believer to stick with it no matter what Newtek does. I don't use Lightwave or Aura at all and am not interested in bundled DVD authoring software. Hopefully they will offer a decent software only upgrade price for those of us who don't need all the extra stuff.

radams
10-08-2004, 02:14 AM
Hello Deandec,


Figured I'd weigh in on this upgrade thread. Maybe Newtek will read it. I wouldn't pay $1800 or whatever to upgrade to hardware that doesn't do HD. Ridiculous. Has Newtek seen those Decklink cards? I'm thinking if they get their act together that Decklink / Premiere might be my next upgrade. Got a demo of Premiere and it looked pretty good. VT3 is working great for me now but the audio issues and lack of multi-layer edl import and edl export of any kind made me feel like there were unkept promises on VT3. Is it likely now that VT3 is dead ended like VT2? Too bad but I'm not enough of a believer to stick with it no matter what Newtek does. I don't use Lightwave or Aura at all and am not interested in bundled DVD authoring software. Hopefully they will offer a decent software only upgrade price for those of us who don't need all the extra stuff.


I understand your concerns about HD...but a word of caution...Decklink cards for the PC do NOT...do NOT support HD at this time nor do they support 10 bit or 4:4:4 (for the PC)....there are bugs in the drivers for Ppro and there is little integration with others at this time. (I just got back from IBC)...
BTW, there is no such thing as multi layer EDL import and export...that is a functionality of AAF(MXF) or XML meta data...which EDL is not. What is your distribution formats? What is your mastering formats?

VT at this time is SD only but packs alot into its suite...If you don't use Aura, LW, etc... Why do you need multi layer import and export? NT has from the beginning developed bundled integrated systems to help provide solutions...

If Ppro, FCP, etc... give you more of your needs then add those into your pipeline and workflow...If there are needs or concerns...add those to VT's feature list and make positive comments...if VT doesn't fit your needs then find something that does...

You will see that all manufactures and systems have issues or workflow problems...I haven't found one system that really does it all at a price point that can be leveraged...Make a list of your most serious needs and future needs...Then add and develope a workflow (even from several vendors) to create the toolsets and pipeline to achieve it...

Cheers,

radams
10-08-2004, 02:28 AM
Hi Original1,


Thats just the point not everyone is as clued in or kept as up to date as the US dealers, especially not in Europe. and this can be quite damaging to Newteks reputation in the UK.

I'm over here in Switzerland....Can you drop me an email as to some of the issues you've had...and with whom you've dealt with?

[email protected]

Cheers,

Original1
10-08-2004, 03:48 AM
Hi Original1,



I'm over here in Switzerland....Can you drop me an email as to some of the issues you've had...and with whom you've dealt with?

[email protected]

Cheers,

Ray I am quite capable of sorting out the Hardware and software issues in general, although I do seem to have some issuses captureing to DV via the Toaster inputs
seems to drop frames but that might be the footage (its old 8mm via component)

Since Andy Bishop left AMGFX and they quit as the main importers of Newtek stuff some years ago, There is no real dedicated VT dealer that sells only Newtek stuff who is prepared to really try and promote it, so what you have here is total ignorance of both Lightwave and VT[3] in the UK.

I have been into educational establishments which teach motion graphics 3D and post production who are totally MAYA orienetated, have never even heard of Newtek. This does not bode well for the future of Newtek sales in the UK. There is no longer a strongly evangelist user base here which is sad.

I am not saying the dealers I deal with here are not excellent, I have always had good service from One Video and Stuart Farrington buy Lightwave is only one line amongst many they also sell Discreet and Alias Products. Lightwave gets very poor treatment now in the few publications that use to deal with 3D stuff.

The amount of Lightwave related Stuff in 3D World has got less and less to the point where I no longer bother to buy it.

IF Newtek want to break through which is after all one of the big post production centres in Europe here they need to rethink their approach. Cause at the moment it aint working.

3DBob
10-08-2004, 04:54 AM
Bobt says



Thats the true choice. Stay dont upgrade, upgrade or change.

Which is precisely my point - for the probable cost of the software only upgrade here in the UK a loyal NT user of over a decade like me is forced to make a business decision. Do I marginally improve my out-of-date VT[3] or do I get one of my other workstations an RTX100 with the complete Adobe video suite and keep my VT[3]!

I'd get a world class non destructive compositing tool
A realtime Multiformat NLE with full audio control
A DVD production suite
An audio production suite
A real time DVD Encoder.

I've already got LW[8]
I've already got a DVD production pipeline sorted

Help - what should I do? Or has it been made obvious.

Now if there was a reasonable VT[3] Post! to VT[4] Live! upgrade path - then I've got the money ready - That would enable me to do so much more in the NT fold rather than be effectively encouraged to jump ship.

A do or don't attitude to your loyal customers without providing a researched product upgrade path is in my opinion a very negative attitude.

3DBob

rbartlett
10-08-2004, 04:57 AM
PlanetDV, OneVideo, DataVision and ZenVideo all know the VT and build systems (with a bit of trailing LW support from DVC.uk.com and CreativeVideo [incidentally, closest to Brum and with a demo studio] - with their distributor catalogue) . Although they don't exclusively promote VT - not unlike many of those dealers active in the forums from the US.

Where the UK lacks is in these dealerships breathing life into the market awareness of NewTek products. There is plenty of life in the products and for many this is a struggle as choosing NewTek isn't a no-brainer anymore.

NewTek-Europe are probably doing a brilliant job but it isn't moving the NewTek gear-shift into the overdrive position esp. in the UK.

Unfortunately the VT[4] Live! and 4:2:2-ChromaKeying positioning is NewTek's best chance to alter this in the UK - and not solely pushing POST or solely pushing VT as a bolt on (option) for the LW-digital-content-creation artist. VideoJockey and InternetTV are exactly where some stimulation would get some interest. Off centre - but VTPro and SX84 would also hit the home cinema AV centre solution quite nicely. A DVE to change channel, and a black panel to get rid of the screen bug on a broadcast TV station (laws permitting).

I did offer some resource in helping in this quest. I wish I also had Kirk Morger's skills. Congratulations NewTek on winning Kirk into your fold.

Original1
10-08-2004, 06:17 AM
>snip
Although they don't exclusively promote VT - not unlike many of those dealers active in the forums from the US.

Where the UK lacks is in these dealerships breathing life into the market awareness of NewTek products. There is plenty of life in the products and for many this is a struggle as choosing NewTek isn't a no-brainer anymore.




Richard you hit the nail on the head precisely, one of the things that prompted me to use Lightwave over the other stuff was Andy Bishops passion for the program, and the fact that they were using it in production work on a daily basis. So if you needed support you had KNOWLEDGEABLE people to talk to if you got stuck who could usually say "oh yea I had the same thing last week try such and such"

Where are you located and who do you work for? I have been tring to get an active midlands user group together for both the Toaster and Lightwave, but I feel like I live in the middle of a Newtek desert :D

I love the product that much I even concidered starting my own dealership.

JReble
10-08-2004, 06:23 AM
I've seen discussion about offering a lower cost upgrade solution, or the notion of communicating with Newtek by not buying the new version.

How bout we just roll this back a second and ask when or how are they going to fix the defects in the last release for the people who have been waiting for it to be fixed once and for all?????????????

Audio record levels
Audio meters
Scaling of stills
Consistent MPEG2 support or at least import
Channel separation on balanced inputs

Jim_C
10-08-2004, 06:45 AM
I've seen discussion about offering a lower cost upgrade solution, or the notion of communicating with Newtek by not buying the new version.

How bout we just roll this back a second and ask when or how are they going to fix the defects in the last release for the people who have been waiting for it to be fixed once and for all?????????????

Audio record levels
Audio meters
Scaling of stills
Consistent MPEG2 support or at least import
Channel separation on balanced inputs


I think you should start a new thread with that question.
To give it the attention it deserves.

deandec
10-08-2004, 07:26 AM
[QUOTE=radams]Hello Deandec,




I understand your concerns about HD...but a word of caution...Decklink cards for the PC do NOT...do NOT support HD at this time nor do they support 10 bit or 4:4:4 (for the PC)....there are bugs in the drivers for Ppro and there is little integration with others at this time. (I just got back from IBC)...
BTW, there is no such thing as multi layer EDL import and export...that is a functionality of AAF(MXF) or XML meta data...which EDL is not. What is your distribution formats? What is your mastering formats?

VT at this time is SD only but packs alot into its suite...If you don't use Aura, LW, etc... Why do you need multi layer import and export? NT has from the beginning developed bundled integrated systems to help provide solutions...



I had said 'when' Decklink gets it together. I'm not switching anytime soon but cheaper solutions that seem to work pretty well are showing up. I regularly work with a house that uses Symphony and they would normally give me 3 layer edls. Speed Razor read them fine but VT3 got quite confused by them. So the edls have to be broken in to 3 separate edls for me. I'm going to / from DigiBeta. Anyway, this upgrade business all sounds disappointing. I don't mean to sound like a complainer but the fact is I was sold a system that had edl support (they neglected to mention that VT2 had none and VT3 has the bare minimum), digital audio (had to wait a long time for that one) and a few other features that don't work so great. I use VT3 pretty much solely as an editor. I use combustion for compositing and Houdini for 3d. I'm not interested in the bundled products so I'm a little bummed that I have to pay for them. There is also the fact that VT is a niche product and it is hard to find anyone who knows how to use it and it doesn't work in non-dropframe format. That makes a lot of the houses I work with think I'm some sort of hack with a weird-o system. "Toaster??!!" they say. "Isn't that on an Amiga?". I don't know. There is something to be said for embracing standard systems even though they maybe inferior in some ways.

rbartlett
10-08-2004, 08:03 AM
Where are you located and who do you work for? I have been tring to get an active midlands user group together for both the Toaster and Lightwave, but I feel like I live in the middle of a Newtek desert :D

I love the product that much I even concidered starting my own dealership.

Perhaps one day we'll look back at this post and realise that this is where our fortune first started! Dealership, NewTek UK, perhaps we have had similar ideas about what we both believe quite strongly in.

I don't work for a media oriented company but for a company that supplies networking and a sales tool for the travel industry (retail - travel agents). My interest in VT isn't from an owners perspective. More of a long term lurker without enough money to buy. I do own Mirage, two copies of Vidget, DVDLab and Vegas4+DVD. I also use LWDE when I have hours to spare.

I'm worried that if I take my video-oriented hobby into my next career ambition that I'll end up killing the hobby factor. A bit like computing and networking is a bit of a chore at home when I've spent a week doing it. However the 'puter and networking skills are hardly creative - but the opportunity to jump hasn't quite crystalised (and I've a family to provide for).

If you want to see VT being marketed locally at all, the closest I've found in the Midlands is the Institute of Videographers annual expo at Stoneleigh Park nr Leamington Spa. PlanetDV had it and rather pooh pooh'd their own demo kit - which made me even more determined to make up for the UK blindness to VT.

Catch me at Yahoo Groups as richard16777216.

James Moore
10-08-2004, 08:16 AM
I'm worried that if I take my video-oriented hobby into my next career ambition that I'll end up killing the hobby factor. A bit like computing and networking is a bit of a chore at home when I've spent a week doing it. However the 'puter and networking skills are hardly creative - but the opportunity to jump hasn't quite crystalised (and I've a family to provide for).

Catch me at Yahoo Groups as richard16777216.

I've been making video stuff professionally now for over 15 years, running my own business ect. It started as my hobby, I played music as a kid, played in bands, started making my own music videos and now people pay me to make stuff. It certainly does 'taint' your hobby. I've come to the conclusion that I am primarily a craftsman, like a carpenter, art must come from within because you are compelled to do it because you want to. Once you start doing your 'art' propelled by money and others goals you are but a craft person.

I still do my 'art' on the side, and I really enjoy my career, but it does truly have a 'chore' aspect to it at times. Especially running a business, having kids to feed, flucuating economies, and the general BS one encounters in 'show business'.

Original1
10-08-2004, 08:52 AM
I'm worried that if I take my video-oriented hobby into my next career ambition that I'll end up killing the hobby factor. A bit like computing and networking is a bit of a chore at home when I've spent a week doing it. However the 'puter and networking skills are hardly creative - but the opportunity to jump hasn't quite crystalised (and I've a family to provide for).

If you want to see VT being marketed locally at all, the closest I've found in the Midlands is the Institute of Videographers annual expo at Stoneleigh Park nr Leamington Spa. PlanetDV had it and rather pooh pooh'd their own demo kit - which made me even more determined to make up for the UK blindness to VT.


Turning your hobby into a business is fun, you get to do what you love every day.

I started off doing Multimedia stuff as a hobby when video encodeing was a black art, I got my first break working for a Video Studio come Post Production Company in London, where I built therr entire multimedia department from scratch, to give you some idea we spent almost £10,000 on a system to do real time Mpeg1 encodeing with component and balanced audio inputs, we were doing a lot of MPEG stuff for BT at the time, I was trying to get the boss there to do 3D stuff and special effects, It took me a year to get him to buy an NLE, when our customers were asking for them, Alais quoted us £30,000 for Maya and a Silicon Graphics system, so that was the end of that, so I brought myself a copy of Lightwave and later a Toaster, I still earn my living on a day to day basis as a contract Actionscript and Lingo Programmer.

I only just scraped the bucks together to upgrade my system to a Dual Xeon system and I brought a old 250 Gb Fibre Channel Raid for Storage.(it sits and hums in the loft when in use) although for short stuff the IDE raid and the SATA disk is moderately usable.

So to find another $1000 to $2000 dollars is a big chunk although if I find a project to work on comercially then I can justify the expence I need a couple of good programming contracts so I have 3 months start up money to buy a VT[4] and associated system and go demo it. I am sure there is a market out there (cue the X-files theme)

MediaSig
10-08-2004, 10:45 AM
[QUOTE=radams] There is also the fact that VT is a niche product and it is hard to find anyone who knows how to use it and it doesn't work in non-dropframe format. That makes a lot of the houses I work with think I'm some sort of hack with a weird-o system. "Toaster??!!" they say. "Isn't that on an Amiga?". I don't know. There is something to be said for embracing standard systems even though they maybe inferior in some ways.


Yeah man...I feel your pain on this one.
:rolleyes:

Greg

Bobt
10-08-2004, 03:09 PM
Jrebble posted

I've seen discussion about offering a lower cost upgrade solution, or the notion of communicating with Newtek by not buying the new version.

How bout we just roll this back a second and ask when or how are they going to fix the defects in the last release for the people who have been waiting for it to be fixed once and for all?????????????

Audio record levels
Audio meters
Scaling of stills
Consistent MPEG2 support or at least import
Channel separation on balanced inputs

I hope you place this in a seperate thread..
Bob

djlithium
10-08-2004, 03:56 PM
Last time I checked, Canada was not in Europe, and yet things don't always make it all the way up here either. Don't get me going on this....

canada blows :| and so does bell micro/FF graphics. Steve, I know you understand the pain of having to order from them in the past (actually I hope not, as I am sure you are up there enough to demand shippment direct from TX) only to have them phone up newtek and order the product for you essentially... because they never have any on-hand.

djlithium
10-08-2004, 04:04 PM
Perhaps one day we'll look back at this post and realise that this is where our fortune first started! Dealership, NewTek UK, perhaps we have had similar ideas about what we both believe quite strongly in.

I don't work for a media oriented company but for a company that supplies networking and a sales tool for the travel industry (retail - travel agents). My interest in VT isn't from an owners perspective. More of a long term lurker without enough money to buy. I do own Mirage, two copies of Vidget, DVDLab and Vegas4+DVD. I also use LWDE when I have hours to spare.

I'm worried that if I take my video-oriented hobby into my next career ambition that I'll end up killing the hobby factor. A bit like computing and networking is a bit of a chore at home when I've spent a week doing it. However the 'puter and networking skills are hardly creative - but the opportunity to jump hasn't quite crystalised (and I've a family to provide for).

If you want to see VT being marketed locally at all, the closest I've found in the Midlands is the Institute of Videographers annual expo at Stoneleigh Park nr Leamington Spa. PlanetDV had it and rather pooh pooh'd their own demo kit - which made me even more determined to make up for the UK blindness to VT.

Catch me at Yahoo Groups as richard16777216.


Hey man...

You are on the right track here. Instead of NewTek Europe (silly), there needs to be a NewTek (insert country here) for each large nation that has a user base or a market that division can exploit. I have LONG suggested a NewTek Canada Inc. for doing manuals, tutorials, demos where dealers don't exist or cannot travel, handle educational sales (big market in Van and Toronto for that if you have the power to bring the product in at the right price), as well as perhaps some R&D. It would all be housed under one corporate website however so that people don't get confused to hell. They can just select the country they are in and get a duplicate of the website from NewTek USA but in their language and with contact information specific to NewTek X - plus perhaps some region specific content which keeps local users in touch and helps NewTek users find work or find people who can do the work when needed on projects. Actually I think that last part makes sense anywhere you do it , but I guess that is what flay.com is for. I would like to see Chris get some additional support from NewTek officially recognizing his efforts some how as a educational or resource affiliate. It builds the community while growing markets for product.

Just a thought or two....
cheers.

Original1
10-09-2004, 02:49 AM
Jrebble posted

I've seen discussion about offering a lower cost upgrade solution, or the notion of communicating with Newtek by not buying the new version.

How bout we just roll this back a second and ask when or how are they going to fix the defects in the last release for the people who have been waiting for it to be fixed once and for all?????????????

Audio record levels
Audio meters
Scaling of stills
Consistent MPEG2 support or at least import
Channel separation on balanced inputs

I hope you place this in a seperate thread..
Bob

Add to that Auras none handling of Audio in Quicktime mode
Am I wrong or did I find that Lightwave Image Editor will not handle the AVI wrapper as a sequence?

Given the price of the upgrade, I believe some retrospective patch for VT[3] which bug fixes some of the major issues might be in order.

There are a few of us amongst the user base who have supported the toaster over a number of years who feel that some of its bugs and weaknesses have given it a slightly less than polished feel , its the maddening minor niggles that impact on productivity that spoil an otherwise excellent product, the same is true of Lightwave.

As an example *.avi do not show up in the Image Editor unless you edit the preferences file, why the heck would you expect a newbie to know that. There are days when its very clear that some aspects of the program were written from a programmers perspective without regard to usability, whilst I am sure that the new programming team will address that, its something that needs to be thought about across the board for the whole suite of applications (integration, useabilty, pipeline)

As the market for 3D applications and Video Editing reaches maturity it is critical that Newtek puts out a really polished product, My big fear is that they don't have the resources of their competitors and that development will stagnate leaving them(us) by the wayside.

Aegis
10-09-2004, 05:14 AM
I gotta say, I couldn't wait for the VT[3] but the combination of a huge upgrade price and the fact that many of the fixes in VT[4] should have been updates to VT[3] means that I'm not giving NewTek my money this time - If and when a VT[HD] appears then I'll take another look but in my opinion VT[4] represents poor value-for-money. Shame really :(

tmon
10-09-2004, 05:17 AM
Into 2005....

Pretty please?

Why?

1. My employer would not approve an upgrade this late in this fiscal year.

2. I couldn't afford it for my "personal" system by November 30, but then not sure if I could afford/justify the significantly higher price later on either. I understand the desire to get some cash flow going and for NewTek to offer some incentive to us humble loyal users, but a "43-day" expiration on the offer is a bit harsh.

wvp
10-09-2004, 08:50 AM
Into 2005....

Pretty please?
I would send your request directly to Philip Nelson


a "43-day" expiration on the offer is a bit harsh.
Agree, especially since I have yet to see any screen shots or the manual. Heck, with the new "screen capture" feature it should be sooo easy to make a little VT[4] demo - right?? :)

Original1
10-09-2004, 12:20 PM
I gotta say, I couldn't wait for the VT[3] but the combination of a huge upgrade price and the fact that many of the fixes in VT[4] should have been updates to VT[3] means that I'm not giving NewTek my money this time - If and when a VT[HD] appears then I'll take another look but in my opinion VT[4] represents poor value-for-money. Shame really :(


Thats my initial impression also, which is a shame I can see how it makes sense if VT is a core part of your pipeline, but if its a hobby or peripheral one then its too steep and makes some people feel sore that features in VT[4] should have been in VT[2] to make it a workable system for some of the stuff I do, if I have a job come up for which VT[4] features are vital I might buy, but quite frankly, I am fed up with the hype and since theres no way to evaluate the software $1000 for something sight unseen is not on.

I must admit that I thought we would not see VT[4] until NAB next year, so I upgraded around March or April, had I known VT[4] was only six months away would I have waited? I don't know

Will you see a VT[HD]? I dont know, there are days when I feel Newtek is losing out in the development and time to market cycle, and its a tough choice. How do you become a mass market company so you have the sales Volume and hence the R&D budget and still retail the personal touch which so many of us love about the company.

pnelson
10-09-2004, 01:58 PM
I have to chime in on this thread.... As someone who has been a NewTek customer since 1990 and a NewTek employee since 1998, I can't remember a time when NewTek DIDN'T go above and beyond for its loyal customers. We listen and respond! Nothing has changed.

One thing that makes the NewTek community so great is the passion that each of you have for NewTek and our products. I can't tell you how much this means to NewTek and all NewTek employees.

I have already recieved personal emails for loyal customers that want the upgrade but have purchased recently or are in special situations, etc... I have worked out things for these people. I've always found a simple email has accomplished more than 100 online posts.

I have been suprised by much of the negativity that has been spread in this and other threads.. .Especially considering that most have not seen the upgrade to VT[4] in person.. You really can't get the perspecitve of the value until you see it or use it.

If you have issues, concerns or simply want to vist.. feel free to email or call me anytime. Just remember you catch alot more flys with sugar than vinegar...;->
Constructive comments are always apreciated.

See Ya,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
Senior Director - Video Marketing
210.370.8266 - Phone
210.863.0360 - Cell
[email protected]

Original1
10-09-2004, 03:49 PM
Phil,

I think its fair to say that you guys have dropped a fairly big boulder into the pond and at the moment its causing a few ripples.

I think most peoples first reaction is to be stunned at the price of the upgrade, react on an emotive level. As the dust settles users may be able to look objectively at how much value (or otherwise) the upgrade adds to their personal use of the Toaster.

But it shows how passionate people are about the product, and I guess some peoples initial reaction is a feeling of panic ( probably a false perception) that Newtek is moving away from its normal position of value of money and fair dealing with its user base.

Aegis
10-09-2004, 03:51 PM
Hiya Philip!


I have been suprised by much of the negativity that has been spread in this and other threads.. .Especially considering that most have not seen the upgrade to VT[4] in person.. You really can't get the perspecitve of the value until you see it or use it.

Well, considering the upgrade price for the VT just nearly doubled you've got to expect some criticism - remember how much flak NewTek got for the $100 price hike on the LightWave [8] upgrade? With an extra $100 for hardcopy manuals? Remember the Mac users that got useless copies of DFX+ tied to their Mac dongles and then found out that if they'd ordered it six months later they'd have got RealViz free? I don't see this as negativity - quite the opposite - as noted in my previous post "in my opinion VT[4] represents poor value-for-money". It may be fantastic but at face value it offers me very little incentive to upgrade - I'm sure there are others here that will get a lot of value out of the VT[4] (particularly if they don't already have a 3rd party DVD authoring solution or LightWave [8] as I do).

I must admit, given the quantity of new builds and patches for the VT[2] I expected at least a couple more free updates to the VT[3] to fix some long standing problems - It'd be nice if NewTek at least offered a final fix for things like audio issues - for a long time we were told NewTek was "working on a fix" - I don't consider a paid upgrade to be a "fix".

Anyway - I'm not abandoning the VT - if NewTek releases a great upgrade at a reasonable price point then I've got the moolah waiting - it's just that the VT[4] ain't it...

One last point - with the upgrade price being fixed across the board from VTNT-VT[3] I'm even less likely to upgrade - I can just hang back and wait for VT[HD] with the assumption that I'll get it for the same deal as my VT[4] (or 5, or 6) using friends...

Original1
10-09-2004, 04:11 PM
Hiya Philip!
I must admit, given the quantity of new builds and patches for the VT[2] I expected at least a couple more free updates to the VT[3] to fix some long standing problems - It'd be nice if NewTek at least offered a final fix for things like audio issues - for a long time we were told NewTek was "working on a fix" - I don't consider a paid upgrade to be a "fix".



Andrew has hit the nail on the head quite squarely as to where the gripe lies for myself. Having brought an upgrade to VT[3] about 6 months ago only to find that there were still outstanding issues to now fork out $1000 to solve issues that should have been a fix, my initail reaction was also one of shock since I thought that the new software would only work with the new board.

Many people were disgrutled at the lenght of time in took for Lightwave 8 to ship, not me I thought DFX+ was a great deal.

There is an issue for the small one man shop that if you already have a copy of Lightwave 8 and another DVD pipeline then you percieve that you are paying almost 50% of the upgrade cost for something you may not need, however its just as true that if the new build has a killer feature that you cant live without you will pay for it and it will pay for itself in terms of productivity. At the moment those of us on this side of the pond have no way to judge the value of this new offering.

Aegis
10-09-2004, 04:17 PM
Hey there Original1!

One glimmer of hope is that NewTek did the right thing with LightWave and released a much needed (and appreciated) 7.5d patch even after LightWave [8] was released - I hope we see the same thing here and that those VT[3] issues are resolved so we can get the full functionality of the VT[3] we were promised when we bought it - whaddya say NewTek? :)

deandec
10-09-2004, 04:41 PM
I think the biggest difference with this upgrade is that it was sprung on to the user base. There was much talk and information about VT3 before it was released. Also there was a very good 'buy VT2 now get Vt3 free' deal which is what I bought. Doing that would have saved all of the annoyed emails from people that just bought or upgraded to VT3. The other difference is the VT3 was a major upgrade to VT2. From looking at the feature list VT4 sure has many elements of what should have been in a VT3 upgrade.

David
10-09-2004, 04:54 PM
I think the biggest difference with this upgrade is that it was sprung on to the user base. There was much talk and information about VT3 before it was released. Also there was a very good 'buy VT2 now get Vt3 free' deal which is what I bought. Doing that would have saved all of the annoyed emails from people that just bought or upgraded to VT3. The other difference is the VT3 was a major upgrade to VT2. From looking at the feature list VT4 sure has many elements of what should have been in a VT3 upgrade.

This a very good point!!!!

ScorpioProd
10-09-2004, 09:16 PM
But you guys are forgetting, Newtek has said over and over again that this is EXACTLY what they were going to do: Spring VT[4] out the gate when it's ready and don't even mention it before.

Their burns never healed from the VT[2] delays. Blame all the users that flame broiled Newtek for those delays. It's not unusual in the least to expect this kind of extreme opposite change in marketing behaviour after all that.

Jim Capillo
10-09-2004, 09:33 PM
Their burns never healed from the VT[2] delays.

They were actually well "toasted" much earlier - in the Toaster/Flyer days. :eek:

inquisitive
10-09-2004, 10:59 PM
No.

The version bundled is an OEM version called DVD Workshop SE.

It is more limited than the full DVD Workshop 2.2, but honestly, it has most of the features you would normally need. It cuts back things like audio tracks and subtitle tracks to a total of 2, eliminates stuff like DLT support, stuff like that.

If you already have DVD WS 2.2, as I do, rest assured it fully works with VT[4] as well, no need to "downgrade".

Is it the same as the one that is listed here? (old archived page i just found)

http://web.archive.org/web/20031203050646/www.ulead.com/dws/compare3.htm

ScorpioProd
10-09-2004, 11:05 PM
Is it the same as the one that is listed here? (old archived page i just found)

http://web.archive.org/web/20031203050646/www.ulead.com/dws/compare3.htm

No, that's what would have been the equivalent back in the DVD WS 1.x days.

The DVD WS 2 SE is extremely similar to the Express version now out.

Original1
10-10-2004, 02:56 AM
Hey there Original1!

One glimmer of hope is that NewTek did the right thing with LightWave and released a much needed (and appreciated) 7.5d patch even after LightWave [8] was released - I hope we see the same thing here and that those VT[3] issues are resolved so we can get the full functionality of the VT[3] we were promised when we bought it - whaddya say NewTek? :)


We can only live in hope, hows the Captain Scarlet stuff going?
Got any need for a Flash Action scripter or Director Lingo Programmer?

Aegis
10-10-2004, 04:35 AM
We can only live in hope, hows the Captain Scarlet stuff going?

Scarlet's going great! Deadlines are tight but the quality of the work we're putting out is IMHO outstanding :D


Got any need for a Flash Action scripter or Director Lingo Programmer?

Nope, but we're always in need of "Old LightWavin' Hands" - email me if you're interested! ;)

Qexit
10-10-2004, 05:13 AM
I have been suprised by much of the negativity that has been spread in this and other threads.. .Especially considering that most have not seen the upgrade to VT[4] in person.. You really can't get the perspecitve of the value until you see it or use it.
Phil, what you say is true but in all honesty about the only way anyone in the UK will get to look at what the VT4 can do is when Newtek's demos at NAB2005 are streamed over the internet next year. I do not know if my UK Dealer of choice has or will have a VT4 demo system in store anytime soon...but even if they did they are 250+ miles away on the South Coast of England, which is 6 hours drive away from me on a good day so factor in an overnight stay somewhere. Not really an option :confused:

I would certainly consider buying a VT4 software only upgrade that did not include LW8 (I already have a stand alone license but I also need access to Worley Labs and other third party plugins that currently cannot work with a VTX LW license) at an appropriate discount sight unseen as there do seem to be some useful features in VT4 itself but the current software only option is not on my shopping list. Too little that I would use for too much money. Sorry.

kleima
10-10-2004, 12:39 PM
Jim_C,

Hey Jim, thanks for that tip!!! That does make it work in VT[3]! That's a weird little bug? I don't think that would have been intentional.

I wish I would have known that about three weeks ago, it would have saved me a lot of time on the edit I just finished!

:rolleyes:

Jim_C
10-10-2004, 05:00 PM
>>Hey Jim, thanks for that tip!!!


No problem. I just realized it myself.

There were other presets I made that I didn't think work and it turned out to be the same thing.

djlithium
10-10-2004, 05:46 PM
I have been suprised by much of the negativity that has been spread in this and other threads.. .Especially considering that most have not seen the upgrade to VT[4] in person.. You really can't get the perspecitve of the value until you see it or use it.



I think much of the negativity has been fueled partially due to the fact that this product "just appeared" and frankly once again not delievering on something very basic. But incredibly important.. and far outweights any other feature in value.. For some of us, it's a murder thing to not have. For others, never going to miss it until the end of time... but its not something any of us should go without.. because of where many of the VT2 and VT3 err VT$ users have to engage other products like tape decks... in facilities... where they only run in NDF...

You know I have been thinking more about this again... since the card died but what is the point of having an SDI card and a digibeta deck when your NLE can' t work with NDF? I don't know ANYONe who has SDI connectivity and outputs to tape from their systems or comes back in DF mode.. like no one.. Does anyone want to respond to this one?? I am trying to be civil here i really am, but ............... I am actually in a shock and awe moment I can't even think about it... no NDF support.. again.. no ndf... ndf... no.. no ndf..

Whats even more bizarre is that finally, with a 4 channel audio card you can read and write TC in the format and store it as an audio clip in the material you are batch capturing.. so... again.....here we are with that advancement... and.. no ndf?



NDF video support.
??????????????????????????????????
??WHY NOT THEN? WHY NOT NOW???

That and of course I know VT-Edit is not resolution independent here in VT4.. and I really needed that. but its actually a bit to late now. Would have been a saviour in 3.X...

deandec
10-10-2004, 09:06 PM
I was in shock when I found out this one. I guess there are a lot of people out there working in analog formats or something. I never ever receive tapes in DF. Never. The editors I work with scoff at the idea that I have some edit system that can't do this. I also think it's strange that I can't turn off a layer or a clip. These types of things make those editors think that VT is lame right off the bat. It's too bad. It does a lot of things well but those few missing essentials including NDF, edl i/o etc. make VT seem like a weird out of the way product.

pnelson
10-10-2004, 09:53 PM
DJ and Dean,

Valid comments and I'll check into some answers for you.

FYI: We have added EDL I/O into VT[4].

I'll keep you posted on the NDF/DF issue.

Thanks for your comments.

Original1
10-11-2004, 01:32 AM
Jim_C,

Hey Jim, thanks for that tip!!! That does make it work in VT[3]! That's a weird little bug? I don't think that would have been intentional.

I wish I would have known that about three weeks ago, it would have saved me a lot of time on the edit I just finished!

:rolleyes:
time I visted the Toolshed :o

radams
10-11-2004, 01:50 AM
Philip,

In regards to the NDF and DF....disable/enable tracks etc... I agree with Dean and DJ.....

VT should be able to do DF and NDF...but hey it should also do ANY frame rate...
But at least get NDF and DF working!!!ASAP!!!!

Thou I do have a question to Dean and DJ...I don't know what types of materials your editing but 95% of most material I've edited has been DF..not NDF.

Why and what for are you using NDF so much?

Most of the Avid and FCP editors I know Including the Smoke guys again mostly edit in DF.

But that doesn't mean that VT shouldn't work with NDF timecode and timelines.

Heck as I stated above...It NEEDS to be frame rate independent...supporting 24P, 23.98P, 25i, 25P, 29.97i, 30i, 30P etc...

As for disable and enabling tracks this again is basic and a BIGGY that VT NEEDS ASAP...maybe in a Patch ;)

Cheers,

radams
10-11-2004, 02:43 AM
I also think it's strange that I can't turn off a layer or a clip. These types of things make those editors think that VT is lame right off the bat. It's too bad. It does a lot of things well but those few missing essentials including NDF, edl i/o etc. make VT seem like a weird out of the way product.


Hi Dean,

There are a couple of ways to do this in VT3 and VT4....

Yes you can go into the control tree for the clip and change its opacity, volume, mute etc...thou that is a pain....

Make yourself some presets with Toolshed...and then you can more quickly with presest and select clip...

I agree it isn't as elegant as direct control in TEDs UI but it does work and is almost as fast...and can be done over serval clips at once...which actually has more power than single clip control...

Cheers,

deandec
10-11-2004, 09:44 AM
I'll look in to those preset ideas. Thanks. For video work it's almost exclusively NTSC digibeta. I'm actually a visual effects artist not really an editor per se although I'm trying to add that to my arsenal. The truth is that DF / NDF is not a make it or break it issue since everything I work with is of short length. However I receive a lot of source material from other houses, do the effects work and then return back a composited master. Unfortunately on my bread and butter show (Elmo's World for Sesame Street) we are the only DF tape going in to a very very long NDF pipe line. I've gone over it extensively with the online editor on the show and he knows about it now and takes it in to consideration. When it first became a known problem I got a lot of grief from a bunch of veteren video guys. Didn't give me much VT bragging rights to all these Avid guys that I couldn't even edit in or output a NDF tape. Fact is VT is an awesome product. The VT and combustion combo have solidly replaced my Flint that I was very attached to. However, looking around at the other editing software out there makes me wonder why VT left out so many of the basics and how so many of you editing guys are constantly working around them. I don't want to switch to something else but the missing edit functions along with the questionable handling of other resolutions and frame rates make me wonder how long I can stick with VT. For now VT3 does what I need and I'll stay put. It's disappointing not to be excited and looking forward to a worthwhile upgrade but again I don't care about Lightwave and especially a DVD authoring program. That one is definately too late. Hasn't everyone already gotten a DVD creation set up by now? Newtek seems like a good company and hopefully they will be responsive to our concerns.

deandec
10-11-2004, 09:52 AM
Just to conclude my long winded answer. I wanted to add that when I bought VT2 and discovered that it didn't really speak edl, which was vital to me, that Paul Lara immediately got me a beta copy of VT3 and saved me a *lot* of hassle. I don't want to sound like a sour grapes customer because the fact is Newtek has been very helpful to me in the short time I've been a user.

radams
10-11-2004, 12:27 PM
Hi Dean,

I love that NT has been so helpful to you...That is good to hear.
They normally strive at being personable, profesional, with positive helpful solutions. Paul is GREAT!!!! and so is the whole VT team.

BTW, Keep asking and have your friends ask for frame rate and rez independent scalable System solutions!!!!! ;)

NT needs to hear it and why it is important ;)

Also go and check out two things...one Bob Tasa's LWconnect product...
Which takes the layers of TEDs timeline into LW and puts a place holder in TED...do what you want render and it is placed back into TED...

(Can we say Flame/Inferno quality;)

Also add to this Mirage...Combustion is okay for some comps...but Mirage is a GREAT production bitmap paint system that adds features that take longer or are missing with combustion...I love working with Mirage and DF thru VT...
and can't wait for LW connect...

Cheers,

James Moore
10-11-2004, 03:54 PM
we are the only DF tape going in to a very very long NDF pipe line. .

Just an idea on a woraround to feed the NDF pipeline, couldn't you prestripe the tape with NDF and punch in the edit at the appropriate place? Wouldn't they at least then receive the tape in NDF as they like?

djlithium
10-11-2004, 04:52 PM
I am very much the same position as Dean here.

I need to keep what is handed to me pre-vfx for i/o points on tape and give them back tape post-vfx with identical i/o points and I can't argue about with the people I deal with because in their world, thats how they work and it relates back to their universe revolving around film processing and printing and how that relates to the Avid film finish tools they work with. The lack of NDF in VT gives them an opening to have issue (and in this business everyone is looking for an issue and reason to not deal with you and pull it back in house so they make more money) with your services. When you tell them you can't do NDF they go why and then it becomes almost like reporting to the school council office in discribing the reasons...and that brings up names of the products you use and the company that produces them...

The less they know the better to why you can't, and having NDF would make that possible so when they turn around after you do a flawless job for them and say hey, we have an avid here why don't you come by and just do the work you can say " no bloody way, not at your rates, I use a VT' and then they get the point...
And hopefully that translates into them looking at VT, more VT sales and more work for VT operators. Actually its not a hope.. it would be a reality and its cost my pocket book bigtime this month and I can only imagine what that has translated into for NewTek because of that issue when others look at it and don't see it there listed as a function supported - wishing it was - but simply can't justify the cost when the rest of their pipeline or production needs NDF and full EDL support. The math just does not work out to justify this upgrade, or for the purchase of VT and a box to put it in for those who work in that end of the business, and frankly when you have a high adoption rate in this end of the business it filters down more effectively to other markets and price points.

tmon
10-11-2004, 05:16 PM
By day, I work mostly with video from 44 Cable networks. And we also get tons of stuff from various Ad agencies, via the post houses they work with...

Most of the stuff comes in NDF, but we get plenty of DF too. On a given day, it could be 50/50%.

Internally, we are NDF.

In our industry, it is a valid presumption that a professional-grade NLE should be able to operate in multiple timecode formats. That's all there is to it. It's part of the criteria.

Then again, if that isn't your priority target market.....

deandec
10-11-2004, 07:14 PM
Just an idea on a woraround to feed the NDF pipeline, couldn't you prestripe the tape with NDF and punch in the edit at the appropriate place? Wouldn't they at least then receive the tape in NDF as they like?

Yes, that's actually what I do. It solves part of the problem but when I need to match something back in later the timecodes don't match. As I said it's not crucial. I'm more puzzled than pissed that NDF support still isn't in there. Makes me feel a little like I'm not the target audience.

deandec
10-11-2004, 07:24 PM
I am very much the same position as Dean here.

... The lack of NDF in VT gives them an opening to have issue (and in this business everyone is looking for an issue and reason to not deal with you and pull it back in house so they make more money) with your services. When you tell them you can't do NDF they go why and then it becomes almost like reporting to the school council office in discribing the reasons...and that brings up names of the products you use and the company that produces them...

.


Boy, did you hit the nail on the head. Are we working with the same people? I agree with all you said but this part quoted above should be writ LARGE. The NDF issue is not just about working around it, which I do, but the perception it and other basic limitations give to those I'm working with. It's hard to convince someone you are using the better mousetrap when it's non-standard AND can't do something that seems like it should be simple. I've always been surprised that NDF, edl output, inability to hide clips and up until recently lack of SDI audio were missing.

James Moore
10-11-2004, 08:07 PM
NDF should be quite simple to implement as it is only a counting convention. I used to get upset (years ago) at pro audio gear that always got messed up when presented with NDF code.

At least VT4 can now export an EDL. I haven't explored what it does with NDF codes in its EDL though, but, I should be okay because (I think) it uses the record in and outs to determine an events duration.

djlithium
10-11-2004, 10:51 PM
NDF should be quite simple to implement as it is only a counting convention. I used to get upset (years ago) at pro audio gear that always got messed up when presented with NDF code.

At least VT4 can now export an EDL. I haven't explored what it does with NDF codes in its EDL though, but, I should be okay because (I think) it uses the record in and outs to determine an events duration.

Well at least it CAN import an EDL today but what it does on output even in DF mode I have no idea about because I can't risk it not working not that I have been presented with a situation where I can give someone an EDL referencing material with DF format code. Can someone who has done this and step forward and tell us about their dealings with it? Does it work, does it not work? Does it sort of work? Etc...
Also, it's been a full work day that has rolled by here and no word back from Philip about the reasons for no NDF in VT2, 3, 4.
What actually scares me more than that is the fact that he actually has to check with someone to ask and find out... I would have figured that this would be of crucial concern to a marketing guy and would know at least why it is not there... and perhaps understand in saying "We didn't forget about it, but I will have to get back to you on a company position about the reasons here"

The biggest thing that freaks me out is that after all this complaining, feature suggesting, the last dev cycle, all of my discussion about timecode output and GPI triggering at TC points for my work on set and what you can do with TC in and out plus some other small tweaks which needed to be done anyway to bring the package up to snuff, plus the fact that since day one we have all been lookng at it and seeing it all day for being missing, and the round of beta testing for VT4 that its not there and he doesn't know why.....

Was it on the list of things to even do in VT4? I know it was for VT3 with the rest of the BC and timecode/edl features.. so... what happened there??and who was responsible for that list if it existed? Paul? Andrew? They both know its needed bad...

I get the exact same feeling that dean mentioned here... Who exactly is NewTek listening to when it comes to product improvements and development and who is the target market?? If you make anything that deals with timecode... you need to use both NDF and DF SMPTE standards... no real choice there. thats just the way it is. If you are going to do batch capture you need to work with real time code not just sony's idea of putting it into DV and not just from DV. That means from student film guy who needs to offline and send his work back to a place that will online (remember, film) to videoographer for weddings who sends his stuff offf to another editor for finishing touches after an initial cut, all the way up to ILM/Digtial Domain/Giant Killer Robots visual FX guy who has one on his desk top to work out ideas on.... then hands off to editorial... They all need full NDF/DF TC support and WE NEED IT.
But NewTek is again listening to who exactly?? IF they are not hearing it from the people they are talking with about future revisions and improvements then one of two things have happened and thats why we don't have it (but we still should as it can't be simply left out - and frankly driving a company strictly on opinion polls will get you into a lot of trouble)

1. These people newtek talks to don't mention it because it's so stupid that its not there that the assume newtek knows how dumb that is and is fixing it and will right damd quick.
or 2. The questions being asked are not reflective of a class of product which this product I believe belongs in.. amature, pro-sumer and professional level video live/post production suite on the PC for under 10,000 bucks.
but easy to use... and not crippled feature for feature when set next to other tools in the market at the same price. That also means just because no one else has all of that in a single product that you don't make it not do certain things other editing apps do from 500 bucks to 5000 to 50,000 bucks. Like a tape deck for 100 dollars plays, records, pauses, rewinds and fast forwards and has slow mo. You get the same functions for 50,000 on digibeta or D9 decks.. its the video format that is the result of the price tag.. And for the most part this is what netwek has done... but someone forgot the eject button. Assumed to be there.. totally needed.. still usable.. but in comparisons this is kind of the situation when looking at it. Kind of blows the whole thing out of the water when it won't do that...Then you think, what good is it if I can't? This one over here can...>
Is VT not an editor? It's something else maybe?
It is along with many things a video editor. What other video editors have NDF/DF TC support with EDL I/O support for under 10,000 bucks??
Just the software, forget cards, forget computers.. just the program...Cause I may need to find out really fast. :S

Just because its a lot of things under one hood doesn't mean one of the areas of the system can be tossed aside believing it does not devalue the whole system, when it is actually a critical but simple component.. like the o-ring of the space shuttle.
Who would have thought??
Philip, please get back to us as soon as you can with one of the following reasons... Again, no offense that you don't know but I would have figured that at least internally everyone would be aware of the reasons because if not it suggests to me that NewTek completely has forgotten about it because its such a big thing to be burning in our minds I would have only imagined it for you guys as being "dam.. VT4 is shipping and still no full TC support... what are we going to say??" or something similar with everyone gong ****e****e****e...

1. Having technical difficulties intergrating TC in both forms for xxxxxx reasons...and it will be in the next major upgrade from Newtek for sometime in the next 24 months, probably NAB 2006..
2. Oppps, we missed that totally.. sorry....kinda got distracted with the whole "live switch thing".. you know..
3. It took us longer to intergrate for X reasons and a resulting patch will be available for VT3 and VT4 users as soon as it is tested and made available shortly and freely with additional enhancements to other areas of both product versions to ensure system wide global or module independent functionality.

Now which one of these at this stage in the game do you think is an acceptable answer that users are going to go with??

I would love to stop beating this to death, but I just can't give it up because its really really disturbing and I really hope everyone there can understand why considering how much I spill into these post...

I hope.

pnelson
10-12-2004, 10:37 AM
Phil, what you say is true but in all honesty about the only way anyone in the UK will get to look at what the VT4 can do is when Newtek's demos at NAB2005 are streamed over the internet next year. I do not know if my UK Dealer of choice has or will have a VT4 demo system in store anytime soon...but even if they did they are 250+ miles away on the South Coast of England, which is 6 hours drive away from me on a good day so factor in an overnight stay somewhere. Not really an option :confused:


Kevin,

NewTek Europe is hard at work getting the demo units out to their sales channel. For customers that don't have a nearby reseller, Michael "Aussie" Holten is finishing streaming demos of many of the New VT[4] features. We are planning on uploading around 20 short demo clips to the NewTek website by this weekend.

Thanks for the feedback and your support!

Faraz
10-12-2004, 12:10 PM
There's also a short video demo on www.VTKnowledge.com

Rigth on the main page, in the middle, under Website Updates.

Jim Capillo
10-12-2004, 12:28 PM
Thanks for changing the name of this thread.......

MediaSig
10-12-2004, 01:58 PM
Thanks for changing the name of this thread.......

They DID change the subject title...didn't they...

:rolleyes:


Greg

Paul Lara
10-12-2004, 02:12 PM
Yes, I did, since it has morphed into three simultaneous discussions.

robewil
10-12-2004, 02:19 PM
Set yourself free with VT[3]! Time to update your signature Paul. "You can do more with VT[4]", perhaps?

Jim Capillo
10-12-2004, 02:41 PM
Time to update your signature Paul. "You can do more with VT[4]", perhaps?

Nah.... how about "You'll hit the floor when you see VT[4]" :D :p :)

robewil
10-12-2004, 03:03 PM
Of course, I've been a bit negative about VT[4]'s pricing so I can come up with some others, ...but I won't. :)

djlithium
10-12-2004, 03:33 PM
Hey Philip,
Any word back as to where NDF (located as a breathing entity I hope in engineering or else where) is and why the lack of NDF in the system now? Among other things?

I also need some very specific answers about a few things.
>Multi-format and multi-standard editing Just what exactly is that?
>Interfaces with batch capture deck lists and configurations - Different from before or am I reading to much into the word configuruation and thats basically just saving settings for different decks?

>Record allows user to generate time code settings ?? Going to tape or seeking spots on tape or changing and how does this work? for pushing TC back out correctly do a deck using just RS-422? Again I am confused here on how "record" does this.

>Real-time FireWire in and out . Finally, but has it been tested to work with DVCAM devices, recording out properly as well? Just wondering of FireWire means FireWire across the board, or really means DV over firewire the transport protocol and cable...

>Control external decks from your VT[4] desktop - OK we know this , but... can we do it in reverse in any way, partially related to my other questions below - looking for globably and module specific.

And while I don't mean to be nit picky, EDL I/O is listed under DDRs and I know that they share the same engine really with the VT-Edit module code, but I had to ask, is EDL I/O actually supported under VT-Edit in 4.0?

If I can get some details here, on these things, depending on the answers I can maybe try and do the upgrade but that would now be a race to the 30th and its going to be hard to do it with out thse things being chrystal clear. So please help.

This will also very much push the case forward for the SX-84 .

I need to know exactly how the GPI triggers are used both ways. This mean I need some electrical engineer details on what kind of voltage, how its signaling, pull to ground, or pulse, or what for on and off works at that end and how each GPI (1 and 2) are seperated the way in and back out.. I may need to build conversion electronics from the way you guys did it to the way the hardware I drive wants it but I can have that done is its going to do what I need to do and will but I need to know first. We have to do it most of the time anyway, but helps to take the trial by errror factor out. Be great if I could do that inside the SX-84 board somehow too. Keeping it clean and protected from prying eyes.
Now, most importantly can these dual gpi/tally functions finally be driven seperately from some kind of event either input on and trips over on the VT-Edit timeline during its playback and fires?

I brought this up a year ago and finally tried to see if it could be built the easiest was possibly while making sure it was still what I needed. Something easy of course and fast like a 1 VT-Edit DVE cruton for each event that makes it go for GPI 1 at 10 seconds(cause you put it there on the line at that spot - not the time you enter into the cruton or anytthing like that) and GPI 2 goes off at 11 seconds. Easily movable when needed, but more or less out of the way the rest of the time. That or some kind of special timeline marker, clip marker or otherwise speficified frame number that gets a special condition and does the job? Even a hotkey combo that can be scripted to tricker from something else would be groovy just a way to get it to go off and what kind of voltate change it is when it does. The rest can hopefully make work.

This caught my eye and now its listed as a feature and "feels" like it might help so can someone there maybe, Aussie perhaps since he is banging out videos read this and demonstate the purpose of it being there as you guys have done it in my posts working throught the mocon stuff with VT3 that I have done, and show me how it how its accessed, used or made available to the desktop??


If these things are actually doing the things I hope they are doing correctly (but I am sure there is some confused wishful thinking in there) and I can take advantage of them and NDF makes it sooner than later it gives me some glimmer of hope here so please someone break these things down for me and let me know. So I can chase a realistic goal and not a far off fantasy for the upgrade date.

Thank you muchly for those who can offer clarity on this stuff.

tfrank
10-12-2004, 04:00 PM
Lots of interesting comments in this thread. I want want to thank Newtek for releasing VT4 now instead of later, and for continuing their ongoing improvement program. I am hoping to upgrade our VT2 box soon to the VT4 while adding a 2nd full VT4 suite. In my work flow, the changes that produced the new VT4 are significant. The basic underlying premise to Newtek's designs and VT4, still blows away any other system out there on a price/performance basis. We are even looking at three to four more systems to be used in news editing, primarily because of the user interface and the previously mentioned price/performance value. Keep it up Newtek!

jcupp
10-12-2004, 04:48 PM
I'm not Philip but the GPI are inputs , simple switch closures: GPI 1 = Auto while GPI 2 = Take or vice versa I don't remember. I've been told this hasn't changed on the SX-84 but I could be wrong.


Hey Philip,

I need to know exactly how the GPI triggers are used both ways. This mean I need some electrical engineer details on what kind of voltage, how its signaling, pull to ground, or pulse, or what for on and off works at that end and how each GPI (1 and 2) are seperated the way in and back out.. I may need to build conversion electronics from the way you guys did it to the way the hardware I drive wants it but I can have that done is its going to do what I need to do and will but I need to know first. We have to do it most of the time anyway, but helps to take the trial by errror factor out. Be great if I could do that inside the SX-84 board somehow too. Keeping it clean and protected from prying eyes.
Now, most importantly can these dual gpi/tally functions finally be driven seperately from some kind of event either input on and trips over on the VT-Edit timeline during its playback and fires?

I brought this up a year ago and finally tried to see if it could be built the easiest was possibly while making sure it was still what I needed. Something easy of course and fast like a 1 VT-Edit DVE cruton for each event that makes it go for GPI 1 at 10 seconds(cause you put it there on the line at that spot - not the time you enter into the cruton or anytthing like that) and GPI 2 goes off at 11 seconds. Easily movable when needed, but more or less out of the way the rest of the time. That or some kind of special timeline marker, clip marker or otherwise speficified frame number that gets a special condition and does the job? Even a hotkey combo that can be scripted to tricker from something else would be groovy just a way to get it to go off and what kind of voltate change it is when it does. The rest can hopefully make work.

djlithium
10-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Lots of interesting comments in this thread. I want want to thank Newtek for releasing VT4 now instead of later, and for continuing their ongoing improvement program. I am hoping to upgrade our VT2 box soon to the VT4 while adding a 2nd full VT4 suite. In my work flow, the changes that produced the new VT4 are significant. The basic underlying premise to Newtek's designs and VT4, still blows away any other system out there on a price/performance basis. We are even looking at three to four more systems to be used in news editing, primarily because of the user interface and the previously mentioned price/performance value. Keep it up Newtek!


Well, thats fantastic to here, if you need help, hire me because the so called film and tv people here just can't get past certain things about the product and I can't do anything about that until I can afford to upgrade and show them all over again... in another last ditch aattemp, just to have them hand a job off to some claud with a FCP and a MAC G5 with AE for the plate mixing... cause its "safe" to them.

I have been trying to them that "safe" approach costs them 3 days worth in my rental and my wage for every 10 minutes of time the other guy would burn up in having to let AE renders taking control of a film set...forever G5 or not...- burning cash is more or less the same idea here when waiting for software to cook out a shot so peolple can move on
. - from having people stand around and wait for it its money money Every second.. we figured it out, you can count "20, 40, 60, 80," and that's how fast the cash is burning on a medium sized feature so for sure a producer you would think would understand the benefits... Most of the do, if you can get past the PM's who were around post facilities in the mid 90s and heard all the rumors about NewTek and the Toaster. They still believe that stuff.

I need a little ammo here to fight through major layers of that before I can even think about bidding competitively to make it work... and the last thing I need to think about on a show is the stuff I need covered off here.

Still, without a VT4 toe help them out.. people are still calling me for tech support on this audio problem thats popped up on new version installs from 3.X to 4.0... sounds like somethng we have run into before actually..

tfrank
10-12-2004, 05:14 PM
Well, thats fantastic to here, if you need help, hire me because the so called film and tv people here just can't get past certain things about the product and I can't do anything about that until I can afford to upgrade and show them all over again... in another last ditch aattemp, just to have them hand a job off to some claud with a FCP and a MAC G5 with AE for the plate mixing... cause its "safe" to them.

I understand the frustration. In our search for new editing systems, FCP and the MAC have come up several times. There are major TV stations in the Northwest using that same solution for news editing. Why? Because those editors have it at home and are comfortable with it. Well heck, I was comfortable with producing Black & White TV at one time! In this day & age, time is money. Converting to the toaster saved us a huge amount of time editing....a minimum of 50% and more depending on the project. In fact, I think we were able to pay for our VT2 with the increase in productivity by not having to wait for the previous system to render.

djlithium
10-12-2004, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=djlithium]Well, thats fantastic to here, if you need help, hire me because the so called film and tv people here just can't get past certain things about the product and I can't do anything about that until I can afford to upgrade and show them all over again... in another last ditch aattemp, just to have them hand a job off to some claud with a FCP and a MAC G5 with AE for the plate mixing... cause its "safe" to them.

I understand the frustration. In our search for new editing systems, FCP and the MAC have come up several times. There are major TV stations in the Northwest using that same solution for news editing. Why? Because those editors have it at home and are comfortable with it. Well heck, I was comfortable with producing Black & White TV at one time! In this day & age, time is money. Converting to the toaster saved us a huge amount of time editing....a minimum of 50% and more depending on the project. In fact, I think we were able to pay for our VT2 with the increase in productivity by not having to wait for the previous system to render.
Oh man, don't even get me started on the FCP stuff. :P
Jobs already owes me big time for another apple product and I don't even want to get into the strangest things FCP editors say about standards that are not standards or even remotely facts .....
The one thing that has never gone wonky here is that most people generally know what they are talking about. I still run into editors and effects people (some students, some not) who refer to compression and decompression technologies are all mac peple - and use >kodaks< to make mpeg 2. :O
That always fun you catch someone who does that...You then play alond and say "oh I don't know those look good but I still like polaroids" and see how much they are still unaware of their surroundings. :) Makes you wish you had a polaroid to catch that.. or 20, 40 , 60 dollars for being completely oblivious.

Most TekKers are rather knowledgeable and from learning via real world experiences - we have had to and I just don't see alot of these other people getting through some of the same pressure cooker situations without that knowlegde. Even some of the newer users I do support for have come a lot faster in a year than some of the students who call me for project help at the end of 2 years in school at 20,000 per year and have the latest and greatest mac FCP systems and cameras worked into their tuiton only to not know how, how to use them but clueless as to how they work...

djlithium
10-12-2004, 06:38 PM
I'm not Philip but the GPI are inputs , simple switch closures: GPI 1 = Auto while GPI 2 = Take or vice versa I don't remember. I've been told this hasn't changed on the SX-84 but I could be wrong.
Any ideas on how they work with triggering out and receiving something in and how that interfaces in software? And with what?

Titus
10-12-2004, 07:01 PM
It looks like the VT is heading in a completely different direction than I assumed when I got our VT[2] ... the LIVE says it all imho.

I don't do live events (an exception was a couple of months ago), I own a small post company and VT[4] is heading to another direction of mine. I decided to buy Combustion 3 intead of upgrading to VT[3], and at this moment I don't know to where my next step will be (scuse me if this phrase sound strange).

I know my next project may pay an upgrade but I really don't find an excuse for it.



P.S. I want to see a demo of VT[4] in my city before making a decision.

PIZAZZ
10-12-2004, 08:23 PM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=29220

They really do listen!

Bobt
10-12-2004, 08:24 PM
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY
COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Bob

jcupp
10-12-2004, 09:16 PM
They don't output. You close a switch and the VT switcher does a transition, nothing else afaik. I know nothing about how the software interface works sorry. These are primarily useful for interfacing with A/B roll linear editors. The editor would fire the GPI at the edit point.


Any ideas on how they work with triggering out and receiving something in and how that interfaces in software? And with what?

thatmediaguy
10-13-2004, 12:20 AM
as a soon-to-be vt4 owner, i'm extremely impressed with newtek. i'm waiting on a budget approval in our church to get the vt4 system so i've recently checked out newtek and lots of other companies. i was most impressed with newtek before, and after the way they've handled customer response the last few days, i'm glad vt4 is the direction we're heading.

i was impressed when i found out the vt4 was the same price as vt3 and impressed the hardware and software upgrade combined was only 2 grand. i wish dell, compaq or ibm had such cheap upgrades on their hardware and adobe's upgrade prices are crazy for just software but they're the best (imho) in their part of the market so we pay it.

kudos to newtek for making a $30,000 system for $15,000 to begin with. everything else i've seen has been icing on the cake!

signed,
can't wait to play

wvp
10-13-2004, 07:24 AM
I asked Newtek if they could make available the PDF user manual for VT[4] so I could better understand why I should upgrade to VT[4].
I was emailed the following link (which I believe is cool to give out as it is in the public site):
VT[4] User Manual (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/VideoToaster/Downloads/VT4.pdf)

I also suggested they put some screen shots up. Now, either it was always there & I didnít see it, or they listened on this as well (Cause I found it a day later!):
What's New in VT[4] (http://www.newtek.com/products/vt/product/product_comparison.html)

Hope these help with your upgrade decisions!

Scott Bates
10-13-2004, 10:11 AM
Thanks Jeff. I'm going to be ordering it, but that will give me a head start while I wait for it to arrive.

Jim Capillo
10-13-2004, 10:24 AM
as a soon-to-be vt4 owner, i'm extremely impressed with newtek. i'm waiting on a budget approval in our church to get the vt4 system so i've recently checked out newtek and lots of other companies. i was most impressed with newtek before, and after the way they've handled customer response the last few days, i'm glad vt4 is the direction we're heading.

i was impressed when i found out the vt4 was the same price as vt3 and impressed the hardware and software upgrade combined was only 2 grand. i wish dell, compaq or ibm had such cheap upgrades on their hardware and adobe's upgrade prices are crazy for just software but they're the best (imho) in their part of the market so we pay it.

kudos to newtek for making a $30,000 system for $15,000 to begin with. everything else i've seen has been icing on the cake!

signed,
can't wait to play

Welcome aboard!

While you mention the value of the hardware that Newtek produces, perhaps the best value is the forum we're on right now. There is a wealth of info from long time VT users and you can also access the LW and other forums as well. Tips, tricks, workarounds and solutions to problems can all be found.... there isn't much that gets by the folks here !

It really is an amazing system - you'll be surprised at what you can do with it !

djlithium
10-13-2004, 12:18 PM
They don't output. You close a switch and the VT switcher does a transition, nothing else afaik. I know nothing about how the software interface works sorry. These are primarily useful for interfacing with A/B roll linear editors. The editor would fire the GPI at the edit point.
Do you know any more on this Jeff?
What I want to do is place two "Crutons" at a different spots on teh TL snapped to a marker then the TL runs past them, the GPI does it s things in the same place every space.
Anyone have any commnets?
I am trying to see if I can make the cash to upgrade to both the hardware card and the SX-84 to do this...plus I would not be a rolling two camera systme which is a serious diddy