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Exception
10-04-2004, 04:13 PM
Hi fellows and friends,

After conferring with a number of colleauges off and on this board, I would like sincerely disadvise any of you to buy an ATI RADEON graphics card for use in professional environments.
W've been using a few, and os have many others I have spoken to. Many of us have stabilitiy issues with ATI drivers crashing lightwave (be aware that it looks just as if LW crashed, but it is actually the video card driver which made LW crash), messing up the screen, gving noise or redraw problems, having long pauses or sometimes even crashing the entire video card and leaving you with 640x480 x 16 colors, a locked up program, and a need to reboot.

We have been getting:
-Noise in our modeler
-Black spots in viewports
-Completely distorted interface
-Horrible redraw anomalies
-Complete driver crashes where windows would switch over to 640x460x 16 colors. This happens quite frequently in fact.
-Bad AA performance

I have tried all kinds of 'solutions' that I should not have to do with a decent graphics card (like upping voltages and so forth), and none of them helped.
Therefore, please, if you are hesitating in a buying decision, I really do recommend: anything other than ATI!

Edit:

REMEBER, these are multiple systems we are talking about, not just one user on one specific system. Not even the same ATi boards.

Actions taken to prevent problems from happening:
- Complete fresh reinstalls, using proper driver install sequences, different programs installed, different versions of LW
- Different driver versions
- Changing a great many BIOS settings, uncliding AGP voltage, AGP bus speed, Fast writes etc.
- Trying different programs too crashes the cards (R4 for winamp: max 15 minutes)
- Flashing Radeon to FireGL (Killed card)
- etcetera...

bobakabob
10-04-2004, 05:09 PM
:confused: Odd, I thought reading the forums, ATI driver issues were a thing of the past. Btw, I'm running a Fire GL 2 and it's fab...

mattclary
10-05-2004, 05:47 AM
ATI driver issues will never be a thing of the past, in my opinion. I just don't think they have the OpenGL expertise required for this kind of stuff.

JML
10-05-2004, 11:23 AM
I have no problem at all with my ati 9800xt,
but I will buy a nvidia card next time I buy a video card, to see if it's better..
I heard so much thing about nvidia being faster in openGL, so i'm curious..

Matt
10-05-2004, 11:37 AM
ATI announced recently in CADDAM magazine that were addressing issues with their OpenGL support (they've never really made an impression in the CAD market because of this).

nVidia cards have much better support for the OpenGL standard hence their CADCAM dominance.

As a general rule (of which there will obviously be exceptions) ATI cards are faster for games but lack full OpenGL support, nVidia cards are the opposite.

Personally I'll never buy an ATI card unless it's known that they have sorted these issues out.

Lightwolf
10-05-2004, 12:10 PM
ATI announced recently in CADDAM magazine that were addressing issues with their OpenGL support (they've never really made an impression in the CAD market because of this).
Yeah, but isn't that just to get the benchmark crown in Doom III back? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

mouse_art
10-05-2004, 01:31 PM
Have no problems with ATI (Rad 9700pro & FireGL X2), works good for me.



Yeah, but isn't that just to get the benchmark crown in Doom III back?


Maybe. ;)

prospector
10-05-2004, 02:07 PM
HMMMM
Been running the X800 for a few months now and I have yet to see any problems.
In fact it's running WAY better than my Ti4200 in the other compy.

After reading this thread....I might have to return the X800 :rolleyes:

tapsnap
10-05-2004, 09:10 PM
All my problems with my 9800 pro were cleared up by updating the drivers from the website. Not had a problem since; 3 months and counting.

Exception
10-06-2004, 03:33 AM
Ok just for kicks, if you want to malfunction your ATi card which uses Catalyst drivers, regardless of the card, do the following:

Close modeler.
In the advanced display properties, 3D tab, turn on Custom settings for OpenGL shading, and in the custom panel turn off the 'application preference' for AA, so that lightwave will be anti aliassed, which is very usefull for screenshots of the modeling process. Put it at 4X (other I have not tested).
Click on apply & ok of all the dialogs, start modeler, open a reasonably complex object (nothing too fancy), check that the AA is on. Now, move the centerpoint of the vieports around and behold glorious crap-o vision. Now, WHILE you are moving the cursor around, press Print screen a number of times to capture the crap happening. Oh, have all your work of ALL your programs saved before doing this. The results are as follows:

http://www.except.nl/aticrash-1.jpg

http://www.except.nl/aticrash-2.jpg

http://www.except.nl/aticrash-3.jpg

An finally a complete crash of the display drivers resulting into 640x480 x16 colors. Exciting!

http://www.except.nl/aticrash.jpg

adamsanders
10-06-2004, 06:55 AM
I'm sorry to accuse this, but if you're having problems with your card, it's probably YOUR FAULT. I've never, EVER had any kind of problem with ATI cards. EVER! Neither my 9000pro nor my 9700Pro or my 9700pro running as FireGL will cause that error when I follow your instructions. What OS are you running?

adamsanders
10-06-2004, 07:00 AM
I want everyone to just look at the other 8 programs that Exception has running in his/her example. EIGHT! Look at that system tray! Lord knows what other background processes are running, probably GMT, WebRebates, Internet Optimizer, other spyware and invisible ones that Task Manager doesn't show. Come on bud, if you still use the windows system tray sound volume icon, you're a newbie.

mattclary
10-06-2004, 07:20 AM
Yep, I think he's right, the problem is with your systray!

Exception, you should put in an nVidia card and see if it does the same thing with all those "uneccesary" programs running.

mattclary
10-06-2004, 07:24 AM
But, then again, what do I know? ;)

ManMountain
10-06-2004, 08:15 AM
Quite simply, it's the space between the keyboard and the chair that's causing these problems Exception.

Your 10 second guarenteed crash on ATI cards is perfectly acceptable in your office scenario as your systems are not correctly configured.

Such attempts to crash my FireGL here or anyone elses correctly set up system results in nothing extraordinary.

I have noted your postings on the Rage3D forums too, displaying the same screenshots. Yet you seem to lack the ability to concede that the human element is afoot here and not faulty ATI hardware.

Seriously though, as already mentioned several times now, completely eradicate the current OS, reinstall and update it, install latest chipset/graphic drivers and install LightWave. Then get back to us.

mattclary
10-06-2004, 09:47 AM
Thanks, Adam... oops... I mean ManMountain. :cool:

Matt
10-06-2004, 10:06 AM
Yeah, but isn't that just to get the benchmark crown in Doom III back? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

What are you suggesting Mike? That I've been playing Doom III a lot? ;)

:D

Lightwolf
10-06-2004, 10:12 AM
What are you suggesting Mike? That I've been playing Doom III a lot? ;)

Nah, you're to scared to actually touch the game, right?
No, I was suggesting the the driver dev team is probably to busy waiting for HL2, so they don't have time to actually implement openGL decently ;)

Cheers,
Mike

(****, I also use the system volume control ... still not a pro after 19 years ... ;) )

adamsanders
10-06-2004, 03:48 PM
(****, I also use the system volume control ... still not a pro after 19 years ... ;) )

Experience does not equal skill

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 01:17 AM
Experience does not equal skill
Nor do unsubstantiated claims ;)

I he has problems that don't occur with a different gfx board, but otherwise identical set-up, then you can't really blame the guy, can you :) It shouldn't really matter what program load you dump into your system, the gfx board just has to work properly.
Jumping to conclusions just by looking at a systray is imho a bit over the top.
It's a bit like: Show me your mouse, and I'll tell you if you're a skilled artist (! trick question - "real(tm)" artists only use wacoms :D )

Cheers,
Mike :p

kyfsu00
10-07-2004, 06:27 AM
why would you want to move the cursor around while hitting print screen a number of times? is there a point to it? maybe they can explain this function. i have a dell system with nvidia fx5200 at work and at home i build a system with ati 9600pro. the system at home works much better. even with less processor and less memory. the only thing i don't like about the ati (and it probably isnt even the cards fault) is editing video in premiere kinda sucks, choppy and slow. next upgrade is matrox rt.x100 for that, unless there are better options?

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 06:33 AM
why would you want to move the cursor around while hitting print screen a number of times? is there a point to it?


... to capture the crap happening.

Cheers,
Mike - scnr :)
-besides there are plenty more good reasons, like producing tutorials, mock-ups etc...

Exception
10-07-2004, 06:40 AM
Hey adamsanders, little doofus, you know what programs they are?!!
Look carefully man!

From left to right:
-The Lightwave hub (Completely redundant huh?)
- Internet Explorer with the MYIE2 shell... (WOW!! IE!!! Such a huge program in your systray!)
- The Winamp Quickstart icon... (Takes up uh.. 3kb? Im sure you dont have winamp, the rest of the world does)
- The ATi Control panel.. Indeed hugely unnecessary, wish I had an Nvidia icon there...
- The sound mixer!! WOW, who has THAT on?
- Poptray! A small email notifier, **** that must crash my video card!
- NetPeeker, a network download monitor, installed on all the systems in our office by default.
- Trend Micro anti virus. I am sure you rely on Windows firewall, but we don't.
- VNC
- THE CLOCK! JEZUS!

For your silly information: This system has been reinstalled froms cratch a dozen of times, and so have other systems. If you dont mind us actually using these systems in the meantine and installing anything other that the ATi drivers, then go away. If you are reluctant to admit that ATi's OpenGL implementation sucks, that is fine, but these arguments you put forth are well... very funny at most.

In the meantime of course we tested all thse systems without VNC, Netpeeker, winamp and Trend micro on. It just doesnt matter at all. Neither does messing around in the bios or whatever.

To the other questio, why should you drag your screen around and press print-screen? Because that crashes the video card, and it shouldnt, and you get a nice screenshot of it. There are dozens of other ways to make it crash but they are hard to reproduce that easily, but they occur all the time, do you really think i am basing this all on just the fact that this action crashes the card? Of course not! Its just an obvious, easy to reproduce flaw, indicating problems with the driver in a more serious way.

adamsanders
10-07-2004, 06:46 AM
Nor do unsubstantiated claims ;)


Which is my whole point. The bottom line is that people are going to see this thread (not many people but some) and think "oh..O.K. I won't buy an ATI card." But making a broad statement such as "don't buy ATI" based on such a limited experience is irresponsible. Especially since the majority of users who buy ATI cards have good experiences. But the users who are most vocal are those who have problems.

My point about the system tray and multiple open programs is indeed an assumption. But I can be pretty certain that Exception does not run a clean machine, based on what I have seen on many, many others' problems. If you don't run a clean machine, you're going to have problems. Usually, at the point when the problems occur the user blames it on hardware, or goes to some forum and complains, or finds one of their "techy" friends and says to them "I think I broke the internet." The trend is not 100% certain but is very consistent.

The bottom line is: do as much research as you can, buy what ever video card you want or the one that is most appropriate, and the more onboard ram the better.

Exception
10-07-2004, 06:47 AM
Manmountain, or should I say Rage3D forums user (thgis is your first post, wow, very surprising): If you can't express your thoughts properly in the ATI user forums, then please don;t come here to try it again. The ATi forum at Rage3D will not accept any kind of criticism on ATi cards whatsoever, and whoever does gets flamed out of the house. Ok, fine you guys want to be stubborn, go ahead, but don't come here and continue the matter.

Exception
10-07-2004, 06:59 AM
Adam:
Noone ever said it was just one user who didnt try anything. It is in fact a number of computers, with different cards and we HAVE tried a LOT to make this go away. We're not just talking about me either but about some colleagues and even people overseas. We are NOT talking about the FireGL series however, eventhough we tried flashing one of our cards into one, that was the end of the card.

It is extremely disappointing that there still seem to be people out there who really expect that serious complaints are made by complete stupid illiterate lazy 15 year olds. Well I might be stupid, but we tried enough, used them enough and have spoken to enough people to unsubstantiate your claims.

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 07:04 AM
Which is my whole point. The bottom line is that people are going to see this thread (not many people but some) and think "oh..O.K. I won't buy an ATI card." But making a broad statement such as "don't buy ATI" based on such a limited experience is irresponsible. Especially since the majority of users who buy ATI cards have good experiences. But the users who are most vocal are those who have problems.
Hi Adam, if you've followed the posts here over the past few years, you must have noticed that hardly any nVidia users complain, but there are plenty of complaints on the ATI side of things (and, yo and behold, on the Mac side too, and the issues were similar).
This has improved in the past few months, may be due to NT or to ATI...


My point about the system tray and multiple open programs is indeed an assumption. But I can be pretty certain that Exception does not run a clean machine, based on what I have seen on many, many others' problems. If you don't run a clean machine, you're going to have problems.
If you don't turn it on you will have even less problems ;) A car that isn't being driven will never break, and if it does, you won't notice ;)
Unfortunately, we do have something like "digital" wear and tear, but it shouldn't really break your system that badly. Heck, anyone remember the Soundblaster Live and MP systems driver bug? Ugly and it was never fixed...


The bottom line is: do as much research as you can, buy what ever video card you want or the one that is most appropriate, and the more onboard ram the better.
Exxactly, and for the past few years this has been nVidia at least as far as LW is concerned.

I do sincerely hope that ATI get their act together as far as openGL drivers are concerned, since they do have nice options as far as the hardware is concerned...

Cheers,
Mike

adamsanders
10-07-2004, 07:36 AM
So then why have I never had a problem with ATI and why can't I reproduce the error that Exception is seeing? Do you think that it has anything to do with the fact that I run a squeaky clean machine with always the latest drivers and updates and that has never been infected with any viruses or minimally with spyware and that I keep a constant eye on system resources?

(and actually a car that is never driven will break. You should drive it at least once a month-listen to Car Talk, it's fun).

Lightwolf
10-07-2004, 07:58 AM
So then why have I never had a problem with ATI and why can't I reproduce the error that Exception is seeing?
Either because you're lucky, or because ATI drivers require a spanking new system to run properly, supposedly with no app using the openGL features running either ;)
And as Exception said, he did try a few things so...
As I said, I've so far only heard complaints from ATI concerning openGL and LW owners, with a few exceptions may be...

On the other hand, I've had nVidias here from the TNT2 up to an FX series board on a number of machines, single and dual monitor configs, and no problems so far (...except for the first bunch of Athlon boards with the AMD chipset, but they generally had problems with AGP).

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
10-07-2004, 09:17 AM
adamsanders: You are ignoring the response that I gave on the accusations that you placed on me. If you want to claim things, you should react accordingly when confronted. Like I said a number of times already, these systems behave this way (and I say THESE, while you keep talking about ONE machine, I am talking about mutliple) EVENTHOUGh they have been installed squeeky clean as you call it. And are you proud that you know how Ad-Aware or SpyBot works? Everyone who keeps a decent system does, and you should also know in this case that when Prime95 will run for more than 23 hours on a torture test, you have a pretty decent computer, which will not fail under any normal circumstances.

In any case, you are putting this on the 'dirty system' shelf, and I have told you that these systems are not. So if you have more to add, be our guest but that issue is now closed.

adamsanders
10-07-2004, 11:47 AM
Cool down man. Them's fightin' words.

1.) A fresh install of Windows is not clean

2.) Prime 95 does not test LW stability accurately. P95 runs a constant 100% CPU usage which creates consistant Vcore droop. LW goes all over the place with CPU and Vcore. Besides, Prime 95 will not test the stability of your OpenGL driver.

3.) I didn't know that name calling was acceptable here in the forums.

You're ugly. And yella.

I actually think that newer Nvidia boards are cool. I would agree that in general, Nvidia cards are better for LW. Of course there are comparative exceptions. But just don't say "absolutely never EVER buy ATI cards for LW under any circumstances" Just say (as it has been said many times in these forums) that Nvidia cards are generally better for LW. I can agree to that. Can everyone else?

I'm sorry I had to chime in again, but I don't like the fact that I probably pissed off some really smart, well-intentioned people. These forums are for helping, not insulting, and I'm sorry if you feel that I pulled the thread away from that purpose. ATI or Nvidia, Intel or AMD, we're all the same soft-hearted animators deep down inside. Except for Mac users.

mattclary
10-07-2004, 01:26 PM
Except for Mac users.

LOL! OK, Actually have to give you points for that one! :cool:

duderender
10-07-2004, 02:59 PM
I've used both nVidia and ATI. A lot of the time the acceleration and performance is in the application itself and the way it has deployed OpenGL.

I've used the FireGL8800 and Radeon 9800xt as well I am using a QuadroFX 1000 as I type. My conclusion? Simple, when using Lightwave I saw no real advantage in any of these cards and that is simply because Lightwave has a very poor implementation of OpenGL.

When I use these cards with say Pro/ENGINEER, a NURBS-based parametric solid modeling tool (used for mechancial design) the 9800xt and QuadroFX work quite grand. The FireGL is older and supports less OpenGL. However, if you are trying to use OpenGL applications with dual monitors you have to be sure that both the video card and the applications you are using support this.

Admiittedly though, ATI generally has superior DirectX performance where nVidia has slightly better OpenGL performance... in a generic sense.

Exception
10-09-2004, 04:13 AM
Cool down man. Them's fightin' words.



Yeh, true, sorry for that, I reread and it wasn't so nice. I was fed up with the ATi user forum in another browser and carried a bit of that over to you, wholly undeserved. Although I do call my Girlfriend little doofus too, so in fact I love you a lot : )

On with the show:

I agree with the fact that a fresh windows install is not clean. That is a sad fact. However it is reasonably decent. It is not optimized and has a lot of unneccesary things going on in terms of services and connectivity, they are not issues that should cause a graphics card to malfunction. Especially when comparing it with an Nvidia who'll work in a pretty dirty system as well. I have a 'dirty system' here especially for all the dirty stuff such as video codecs, mail and spam filters, ftp server, small programs and so forth, that has seen numerous programs installed over the year or so that it has the same OS. That still runs lightwave fine with an Nvidia card tho... But that is perhaps incidental, and I cannot speak about it in a general sense. I agree with what you say in 'a general sense', but I believe it to be stronger, in that I think that ATi cards are wholy unsuited and Nvidia cards are pretty decent.

adamsanders
10-09-2004, 10:00 AM
So like, what card do you use/ desire?

Exception
10-10-2004, 04:23 AM
Well I have absolutely no demands really. All I need is crisp display since we're on 21" eizo's mostly. So the other card performing its tricks in here are lowly Asus Nvidia FX 5200, pretty much the cheapest Nvidia cards around, and the asus gives good image quality. Im happy with those.

Lamont
10-12-2004, 09:19 AM
It seems like the problem extends beyond LW. A friend of mine came over with his laptop and was showing me work in XSI when he'd select something and it wouldn't select the right verts/polys. He yelled effin' ATI!!

He called tech support and thy told him it's an ATI thing on anything other than the non-gaming cards.

Justinw
10-12-2004, 09:37 AM
Hi there,

Is it possible that the problems are resolution dependent?? You mentioned you use 21" monitors. I currently run LW on 2 laptops; the first is a P4 3.06Ghz with an (don't beat me.....) ATI 9000 @ 1024 x 768. Not too bad, a few crashes here and there, but for all I know, that could be XP; no major graphic glitches though. My other laptop is a Celeron 400 (with the official 'designed for Windows 98' sticker, with an, (geez I wish my desktop hadn't fried.....) ATI Rage Mobility P/M AGP 2X with (wait for it.....) 4MB of RAM; running Win 2k @ 800 x 600. OK, sitting down are we..... gold star to the person who can guess which machine is more stable with LW. Yep, the Celeron, albeit mightily slower, but much less crashing. OK, before we too carried away, I have also used 2 desktop machines with GeForce cards (yeh, I'm a little behind the times, but it makes for an interesting comparison.....). The first a PIII 667 with Ge Force card (ASUS) @ 1280 x 1024 the second an AMD 1.2 GHz with a Ge Force 2 card (ASUS) @ 1024 x 768. Which one crashes more with LW..... the PIII. So far, the higher the resolution, the more crashes are experienced (with me anyway.....).

The machines we have run LW on (just hobbyists.....) have not been run up against each other in tests, this is purely an observation. It could have more to do with the OS, drivers, (supposed 'crap' running in the background.....), really not sure, but the higher the resolution, the more crashes we run into. By the way, this is not just LW, but all software in general.

Anyway,

my 2 cents (+ inflation)

Cheers,

Justin :-)

Lamont
10-12-2004, 09:57 AM
That can lead someone to belive that it's resolution... but I would guess it's the videocard settings for quality. LW 7.0~7.5c did not like when I had AA turned on, the performace was pure crap and I got crashes. In version 8.0 it's very good, but I have come to realise that I don't like AA in modeler :D.

The truth is that it could be a crap-load of things that cause our apps to crash. It's not un-common to get a batch of bad videocards. I got a batch of Bad Chaintech Ti4200's and had to RMA them. Over heating is more common now because proper ventalation is the last thing people think of with these new batch of videocards and processors. I sudgest users dig into the videocard settings and tweak the performace to see what works.

Caligo
10-12-2004, 08:34 PM
I had a Geforce 4 when I got LW 7.5 and then got a radeon 9800 Pro a few months later shortly after getting LW 8.0. I never had a single problem with either one. Since no one else has said it, I will: it's REALLY important to clean out old ATI drivers and XP's default ATI drivers. The uninstaller in add/remove programs is not enough.

Here's a link to a utility called Driver Cleaner. Follow the instructions in the readme file. Do every step for ATI, including the cab cleaner just to be thorough (it'll delete the ati/nvidia drivers from the install/SP cab files so that xp can't install them before you can install newer ones). Make sure you do all 5 of the ATI entries in the dropdown box, and DO unplug your nic cable before you restart in safe mode. This utility will get rid of ALL the old drivers that interfere with the new drivers. Oh, if you had any other brand card before the one you're using now, clean out those entries too (nVidia, etc.).
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=745

The set of drivers I'm using right now are the Omega drivers. They're modified/optimized versions of the ATI/nvidia releases and I generally find them to be at least as good as the official sets.
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=883

I don't know if this will get anyone else's ATI cards to work with LW, but I figure it's at least worth a shot.

Exception
10-13-2004, 02:24 AM
Thats a good suggestion... Its definately driver related so that could help..

To the others, it should be taken in mind that there are many ways to crash a system or program. Lw crashes are not always video card related. So that PIII you're telling about might have some other issues. In the case which I was telling about it's consistent ATi display driver behaviour that crashes OpenGL applications and, indeed, definately NOT only lightwave! The system does not crash, and if LW crashes it will give an error in one of the ATi driver files (like ATIOPENGL.DLL or something...).

So before getting really off topic with resolution-related things and so on, are you sure its the video card doing thecrashing, and , do you expreince garbled screens and or video driver lockups reverting the system to 640x480?

Justinw
10-13-2004, 09:38 AM
I can't say for sure its the video cards crashing the apps or not. I just thought I'd share my observations on the PC's I have used. I have had complete lockup / garbled screens, but that was on a Geforce card and turned out to be heat related. Hope you find an answer soon.

Cheers,

Justin :-)

Miles
01-02-2005, 01:53 PM
Since no one else has said it, I will: it's REALLY important to clean out old ATI drivers and XP's default ATI drivers. The uninstaller in add/remove programs is not enough. Here's a link to a utility called Driver Cleaner. >>>> etc...I've been in need of a better GPU for a while now and based on comments made in these forums I was prepared to go with an nVidia board, BUT I have a brother who has been a LW and ATI user for a good while now and he has not mentioned any problems with them to me thus far. Well, being the cool bro that he is he says he's sending me an ATI GPU (I'm not 100% sure which kind yet) so it looks like ATI it is for use with my LW system here.

Seeing how it's been a little while since this topic was addressed what's been the results from those having problems before AFTER they UN and then RE installed their ATI drivers as noted above? Or has ATI indeed addressed their OGL driver support since this thread was started? What about XP-SP2 any improvements with it?

I know for sure he has upgraded to an X800 just yesterday, but have yet to hear back on how that's working out for him. Should I send him any updated Heads-Up info in addition to the aforementioned complete un/re install steps of his drivers?

Thanks much in advance for any additional insight...

Bigboy
01-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Well, just for the record... I've used both ATI and NVidia cards under LW, and both have served very well. I currently use an ATI 9800, its fast and no problems at all.

PC are complex things... there's more than just drivers that could be at fault.

You shouldn't go shouting that no one should buy a card because you cant get it to work right.... post something by all means, and let others decide.

A lot of hardware will have some problems under some PC configurations, there's just too much variety in PC's.

adamsanders
01-03-2005, 06:37 AM
After all my ranting, I just got a GeForceFX 6800nu.

IgnusFast
01-03-2005, 07:22 AM
I actually think that newer Nvidia boards are cool. I would agree that in general, Nvidia cards are better for LW. Of course there are comparative exceptions. But just don't say "absolutely never EVER buy ATI cards for LW under any circumstances" Just say (as it has been said many times in these forums) that Nvidia cards are generally better for LW. I can agree to that. Can everyone else?

I'm sorry I had to chime in again, but I don't like the fact that I probably pissed off some really smart, well-intentioned people. These forums are for helping, not insulting, and I'm sorry if you feel that I pulled the thread away from that purpose. ATI or Nvidia, Intel or AMD, we're all the same soft-hearted animators deep down inside. Except for Mac users.

OUCH! Since my G5 Mac has an ATI video card in it, I'm DOUBLY CURSED?!?!? :)

adamsanders
01-31-2005, 04:37 PM
Yes. Ok, no. but look at these systems and see where yours should rank.

http://www.blanos.com/benchmark/

cholo
02-07-2005, 06:34 PM
I have had problems (in the past) with nvidia cards and ati cards both. Sometimes a perfectly good card will lockup constantly on a certain mobo and behave wonderfully on another one. This is the result of the 500 dollar computer age, components sometimes don't play nice with eachother. It seems like a driver issue, but my experience has shown me 99% of the time the hardware's involved in strange and misterious ways. I'd recommend you swap cards and systems, try to find stable combinations. OpenGL video games are useful for doing torture tests. This is all I can think of, but I'm quite surprised you've been having all that trouble. In my experience LW will run pretty stable on even the most unstable systems I've owned.

Verlon
02-08-2005, 02:57 AM
As much as I hate to say ANYTHING in defense of ATI.....

As an avid supporter of AMD processors, I have frequently run into those who attach instability and such to those processors unfairly.

When a friend got NASCAR 4 and could not get it to run, he called the tech support where the guy on the phone told him that system requirements included Intel or 100% compatible "and I guarranty you its that AMD processor."

Well I had a fit, packed up 2 computers and went over to his house and much work later, found that the copy of DirectX on the NASCAR cd was bad. Microsoft certifies AMD processors 100% Windows compatible.

I have used ATI Radeon, Radeon 2 (or later Radeon 7000) and Radeon 9700 pro successfully with Lightwave (and AMD processors....). I have not experienced the problems described in this thread. I do not run a "squeaky clean" system. I have even done horrible thing like running lightwave WHILE running Everquest on the other moniter.

Unless ATI has a decisive advantage in speed, I will use Nvidia cards as a matter of choice (based on some horrible ATI customer service). I can not honestly say, however much ATI irritates me, that I had trouble with crashing while using ATI cards.

Jirapong
02-10-2005, 04:53 PM
It depends on you perferences. I have 9200SE 128 MB came with my PC before and have problem only offset points. When I need to select those selected points I had to click on the right of them around 2-3 pixel. After updating to the lasted driver, it's fine.
On New Year, I move to FireGL 9600 128MB, the cheaper one. The is no problem at all. And LW shows nothing different due to it poor OpenGL. However, on XSI, FireGL work great, no artifacts, flicking as 9200

I'm still working in LW at the same speed as I use with 9200SE or the earlier, 7500, 32 MB, because it's my speed of work. If I get 6 GHz 128 bits PC with 128 GB of RAM, I would still have to same work speed.

wtdedula
02-14-2005, 08:43 PM
Hello;
Just to add my 2 cents, I don't like the ATI Radeon either but not because of the driver instability. Instead, I have had two ATI Radeon 9800 Pro units fail at work - One just failed completely and I had to get it replaced, and the other one didn't fail completely but I see strange dots on the screen (Though I guess this second problem could be a monitor issue).

I also have never figured out how the multi-view monitors work on a Radeon card. Everytime I try to connect two monitors and then extend the picture across two screens, or clone the same screen on both monitors, I end up taking several hours trying to get it working and when I finally do, I can never quite remember what I did (to get it working).

In contrast to this, I have never had a Nvidia card fail on me ... never, or not even partially fail, and it is so very quick and easy (For me anyway) to figure out how to configure it for multi-monitors.

Tim

Sande
02-14-2005, 11:55 PM
Just wanted to add my personal experiences...

ATI's drivers were terrible 5 years ago but since then they have matured quite a bit and seem to be usable nowadays... I have owned two GeForce cards (GF256 and GF2 GTS) and I was happy with both of them. Ok, both cooler fans broke down and had to be replaced and some driver-versions were not as stable as others, but all in all good cards and good experiences, at least if we forget the poor image quality...

...Which was the reason why I couple of years back bought my current ATI-card and I've been happy with this too. I have never had any problems and I've been using Lightwave a lot with this card. And I know many others who daily use ATI with Lightwave. So "don't buy ATI"-comment sounds a bit strange...

What I can say though is don't buy GeForce FX 5200! :D
I have to struggle with that card at work and it's unbelievably sloooooow...

Vailias
02-16-2005, 12:08 PM
Sande: Funny that. I played Halflife 2 and Doom 3 at acceptable framerates on a Geforece 5200FX (800X600 high detail on each). Personally I've only had one issue with lightwave and a graphics card, thats with the Geforce 6600 I'm running now, and it was just a driver issue, but otherwise be the card from ATI, nVidia or even Voodoo LW runs fine.

I think there is a lot more to these crashes and graphical issues than one piece of hardware or firmware.

Sande
02-17-2005, 11:30 PM
Vailias, acceptable framerate is a bit of personal opinion but good thing if you get along. :)

CGPlanet
02-18-2005, 01:52 AM
9600XT crashes rarely in Lightwave (More with athlon xp chip) (Best with Intel Chip). The real problem is large textures really slow it down (large quantity of textures really slow it down). I believe a threshold for the textures is between 1024x1024 to 2048x2048 (I believe the XT series was geared for modern texture mapping for games, which allowed it to pump a huge amount of modest textures through it). It is fast with VT2 video editing. Works great with open GL for development in Particle Illusion. Great for Combustion, Aura and CAD. Should have gone with the 9800XT (8 pipes) with 256mb ram or another Nvidia. Finding a great video card is very time consuming, hard to return to the computer stores after you've opened the box. 9600XT (4 pipes) 128mb is very stable very fast though for most of the work we do.

I like it for this reason:
Allows you to have multiple types of intense software open at the same time allowing you to mulitask without weighing down your system.

I never could find a way to speed up larger textures.

If you want your cards to work best turn down all the special features. Unless your watching a DVD movie on your monitor.

CGPlanet

omayhemo
08-03-2005, 09:06 AM
Quite simply, it's the space between the keyboard and the chair that's causing these problems Exception.

Your 10 second guarenteed crash on ATI cards is perfectly acceptable in your office scenario as your systems are not correctly configured.

Such attempts to crash my FireGL here or anyone elses correctly set up system results in nothing extraordinary.

I have noted your postings on the Rage3D forums too, displaying the same screenshots. Yet you seem to lack the ability to concede that the human element is afoot here and not faulty ATI hardware.

Seriously though, as already mentioned several times now, completely eradicate the current OS, reinstall and update it, install latest chipset/graphic drivers and install LightWave. Then get back to us.


Blaming the user is not only not helpful but insulting. Scratch system installs are not the answer. Quite simply if you have no expertise in the area you are addressing DO NOT POST. Others are experience the same problem, just because your particular hardware/software envoirnment combinations do not produce the errors does not make it the fault of the other users.

I'm a network engineer. I've been supporting desktops, OS, and network configurations for decades. I think I'm aware of how to setup a machine from scratch. If the latest drivers and a scratch install do not eliminate the problem, then the problem is in the application or the application/hardware combination. Tweaking a machine should be done for performance boosts, not to avoid crashing.

ATIs OGL driver may be at issue, but it's only at issue when it comes to the code Newtek is using in conjunction with OGL. Other applications that run on OGL do NOT have the same problems LW displays.

Again, unless you have something constructive to say, or are an expert in the area, then shuddup and stop feeding the troll. :grumpy:

jacross
08-03-2005, 03:18 PM
Blaming the user is not only not helpful but insulting. Scratch system installs are not the answer. Quite simply if you have no expertise in the area you are addressing DO NOT POST. Others are experience the same problem, just because your particular hardware/software envoirnment combinations do not produce the errors does not make it the fault of the other users.

I'm a network engineer. I've been supporting desktops, OS, and network configurations for decades. I think I'm aware of how to setup a machine from scratch. If the latest drivers and a scratch install do not eliminate the problem, then the problem is in the application or the application/hardware combination. Tweaking a machine should be done for performance boosts, not to avoid crashing.

ATIs OGL driver may be at issue, but it's only at issue when it comes to the code Newtek is using in conjunction with OGL. Other applications that run on OGL do NOT have the same problems LW displays.

Again, unless you have something constructive to say, or are an expert in the area, then shuddup and stop feeding the troll. :grumpy:

Kind of harsh eh?!?

I too am a systems and network administrator and I've supported hundreds of machines for the past decade +. I would have to disagree that you shouldn't have to tweak a machine to avoid crashes. You may need to tweak a machine for performance, stability, security, etc. There are a 100 different reasons that you may want to look under the hood and make a few modifications. Ever need to recompile an IP stack on a linux box because it was buggy? Ever stop services in Windows to help security? Have to reload an F5 loadbalancers custom BSD due to a software error? Everyone's situation may be a bit different. Environments are different. That's just the way it is.

Also, just because someone elses experiences may be different doesn't make them immediately invalid because YOU are a network administrator. My experience has had difficulties with Geforce, Geforce2, Geforce4, Quadro, Quadro2 and 5900 series video cards either through the boards dying, display problems, or more recently problems with selection (point, polygon, or otherwise) in XSI and LW. Does that mean that I believe no one should ever buy an nvidia card? No Way! I've had lots of positive experiences too. Other than the handful of exceptions they were pretty stable and fast. I've also had numerous ATI cards in laptops and workstations ranging from the old M2 to a FireGL V5100 and almost everything in-between. For the most part they too have been excellent cards. I used to run LW on an old Compaq Armada that had an 8mb ATI card and it ran great! The only cards I ever had real problems with were Matrox cards, but that's a different story.

Needless to say, blanket statements don't help anyone. Let's just share our experiences, expert or not and try to help eachother out. Just because someone might not have the title of 'network engineer' doesn't automatically mean they don't know what they're talking about.

omayhemo
08-04-2005, 05:47 AM
Kind of harsh eh?!?


Curious that you say I'm harsh?!
It was me that was sticking up for the poor guy who Mountian said was THE problem. And by proxy all of us with the problem left unresolved. Yup, we must be stupid.

And I quote
"The problem is between the computer and the chair."

I believe you need to re-evaluate yourself and stop laying blame elsewhere, good sir.

And again I quote
"so, just because someone elses experiences may be different doesn't make them immediately invalid because YOU are a network administrator."

This is EXACTLY the statement I made to the person who was unhelpful and insulting.

I'll quote myself for clarity
"just because your particular hardware/software envoirnment combinations do not produce the errors does not make it the fault of the other users. "
This type of discussion is not fruitful. I'll not answer to further flames, so don't waist your time.

Again to the point: Clearly reformating systems is NOT the answer to this problem since many have discussed problems like this with LW coming from newly built and configured systems.

I'm seeing a problem with ATI OGL and Newtek, that's the only pattern here.
That and personal and insinuating attacks in these here forums.

JML
08-04-2005, 07:39 AM
though I did not have any problem with my ATI card,
on LW9 posters at siggraph, they have the ATI and AMD logo, so LW9 might be better optimize for ATI and AMD than before?
so for those that have problems, thing might get better.. we will see..

prospector
08-04-2005, 08:18 AM
Quote;

10-05-2004, 01:07 PM #8
HMMMM
Been running the X800 for a few months now and I have yet to see any problems.

Well been a year now with this card, STILL not 1 LW crash,freeze,OGL anomolies.

This thread still going too :confused:

I'd still agree with mountain tho. and here's the reason because I don't like making statements without an explaination.

IF I have a computer and it doesn't do as I expect on a program, yet others have no problems on the same program, I auto suspect either the program install or the compy.
If after a few reinstalls the program acts the same way, then the compy is suspect. I have 6 compys here and I can cross refrence the various parts used to build them.
So if the program works on certain compys and not others I can narrow it down to a part, (some compys have different mobo>video card>ram combinations).

What I have found out is some parts of LW run better on different combinations of parts and some don't run at all.

Spreadsheet works on the ATI (x800), Geforce 2 cards but not on the Ti4200 card compy.
So it works on ATI AND Nvidia cards but NOT the Ti4200.
So if the process of deducing the problem is 'IT won't ,work period', without testing under multiple compy configs then the problem does indeed lie between the chair and the compy.

jacross
08-04-2005, 12:47 PM
omayhemo, I take it you weren't quoting only my post since I didn't say everything you were referring to and that not everything was directed towards me. That being said...

Yeah, I thought it was kinda harsh to say:


Again, unless you have something constructive to say, or are an expert in the area, then shuddup

And I definately was not the one to say:


"The problem is between the computer and the chair."

Although we all know that this can be the case sometimes, I have never assumed that this IS the case. I didn't even imply it, in fact I implied the exact opposite. I would have to be at the machine and examine it myself before I would even consider this point of view. And even if in the end I do find an issue that was caused by the user, that in my mind never, ever would mean that the user was stupid. It is a learning opportunity, nothing more and nothing less. So please don't put words in my mouth.

My post was simply stating that I've had problems with both nVidia and ATI cards. I've also had great experiences with both manufacturers. In the instances when I had problems there were a wide range of issues, not just one. Quite frequently I've seen several cards exhibit the same symptoms, but the causes were all different. This may or may not be the case with your situation, but I don't know enough to have any comment.

I will admit that the following comment is a bit harsh (I'm pointing my finger back at myself):


...so, just because someone elses experiences may be different doesn't make them immediately invalid because YOU are a network administrator.

But I still stand by my assertion that the following comment just isn't true:


Tweaking a machine should be done for performance boosts, not to avoid crashing.

Also:


just because your particular hardware/software envoirnment combinations do not produce the errors does not make it the fault of the other users.

I would also say that the reverse is also true. Just because your particular hardware/software environment combinations do produce errors does not mean everyone else has the same problems and that it's necessarily the manufacturer's fault. Again, as I stated previously, everyone's environment is different. In one location all of the machines could be based off of the same OS image and thus all machines exhibit an issue, at another location each machine could be as different as night and day and only a handful have an issue. Or, they could all be different and still have an issue that is very, very similar (though ultimate causes may be different). The only constant is that there is no constant.

Finally, of course it is your perrogative to no longer participate in this discussion if you feel it isn't fruitful. This isn't a flame, it's just a point of view. I've pointed out where I think I've made a mistake in my post. I'm trying to be neutral here. But don't assume to try and tell me when to post and not to post. Just my $.02.

omayhemo
08-04-2005, 01:47 PM
What I meant by unfruitful, is flame wars, not this topic.
Yes I was speaking of and to the guy that originally flamed, Moon whatever his name is.

His comments were the JUST SILLY comments that I was referring to and were in fact very belittling to the person that they were directed at. As well as a couple others than have insinuated by proxy, that a user who can not solve this issue must be the problem, even though it is apparent that there is a connective fiber back to Newtek and not simply specific to one user.

On the other hand, I appreciate that you've accepted responsibility for your comments, and in the same tradition I accept that I've also lowered the discourse by feeding the troll (the original flamer).

Appologies to those to whom I did not mean the comment directed and to all others for junking up the thread by clicking the reply button on the flames.

Now, as far as tweaking a machine to make a piece of software run without crashing, um no, I'm still gonna disagree with you there. A scratch install with problems points to poorly written software or drivers. Tweaking a machine is an advanced activity that the common Lightwave user is probably not qualified for, with many exception of course. A misconfiguration in Network rendering or a third party addition to the envoirnment withstanding, this problem seems evident to be in the code of LW in relation to PCI Express, OGL, ATI, and Newtek. Points at Manufacturers without remorse.

I've been using LW a long time now. Newtek is doing better, but I'm quite tired of waiting for it to catch up and not going to dump more money into it to acheive the results I'm guarunteed on the box of 8.0. Though I've been using it since 5.5, you catch my meaning. If there's limits in HCL (and it seems likely there is) then they should be published or corrected, and ASAP.

jacross
08-04-2005, 02:53 PM
omayhemo,

I think on the matter of tweaking to get stability we'll have to agree to disagree on this point... but to each their own :) . I agree that most aren't able or even interested in doing this as it does require more advanced knowledge. However if you are willing and able, then for me personally it's in my best interest to do everything I can to get it to "just work" or improve performance. That's the bottom line for me. Gotta make the green :). I should note however that I haven't had to tweak anything on my last several ATI cards.

I understand that you and others have had difficulties, and I in no way discount your or their experience. I however cannot corroborate these issues as I have a ATI PCI-E card running on a Dual Opteron system with LW and XP SP2 with an NForce4 board without difficulties. My system has been very stable.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think that everything is perfect in happy :lwicon: land. The OGL in :lwicon: definately needs to be fixed. It is definately slow on high poly count scenes, and forget about using much of the OGL display options. However it does appear that this is going to be addressed very shortly. For that I eagerly anticipate the update :). I would be very interested to see if when Newtek does update the OGL in :lwicon: if that corrects some or all of the issues you and others seeing with ATI cards. We'll have to wait and see.

omayhemo
08-04-2005, 03:03 PM
You have ATI PCIe with not problem?
Hmmmm, that blows my theory completely then.

I used to be running a rock solid ATI AGP. The two new machines I have only have PCIe in common and both experience the same issue. Each time a driver is released, it get's worse. I switched to Omega and it's a little better but still the same problem. The biggest complaint I have is that sometimes when modeler goes down, while switching views, it corrupts the model that was open. Can be very frustrating!

jacross
08-04-2005, 06:11 PM
Just out of curiosity what is the spec's of your machine? What is the chipset on the motherboard? Have you updated the chipset drivers (if available)? It may be a strech, but worth looking into I think. I don't know how new your systems are, but if they're an early PCI-E then there could be a bios or driver issue for the PCI-E controller that needs to be resolved. Also, I know that ATI did have problems meeting the PCI-E specification at first. There was a lot of signal noise.

Yeah, in fact I have two ATI PCI-E cards running in two different machines. One is a FireGL and the other is an X800Pro. They're both fairly new. I haven't had any problems with them.

I have to say though that problem with modeller corrupting the file on a crash when switching views sounds like a bugger. That definately does seem to point to a display issue. Especially if it's gotten worse with driver releases. I will still recommend trying the things I mentioned above if you haven't already. At the very least it'll be another set of things you can check off :).

Just my $.02

omayhemo
08-05-2005, 05:58 AM
Just out of curiosity what is the spec's of your machine? What is the chipset on the motherboard? Have you updated the chipset drivers (if available)? It may be a strech, but worth looking into I think. I don't know how new your systems are, but if they're an early PCI-E then there could be a bios or driver issue for the PCI-E controller that needs to be resolved. Also, I know that ATI did have problems meeting the PCI-E specification at first. There was a lot of signal noise.

Yeah, in fact I have two ATI PCI-E cards running in two different machines. One is a FireGL and the other is an X800Pro. They're both fairly new. I haven't had any problems with them.

I have to say though that problem with modeller corrupting the file on a crash when switching views sounds like a bugger. That definately does seem to point to a display issue. Especially if it's gotten worse with driver releases. I will still recommend trying the things I mentioned above if you haven't already. At the very least it'll be another set of things you can check off :).

Just my $.02


Ya, unfortunately I've tried to update AND roll back drivers for my entire system.

I'm using the Intel Prescott. Ya I know, it's an extremely hot chip. I water cool it.

My other system is a Dell. I'm unsure what CPU chipset is in there at the moment. Being as both machines are completely different spec with exception to the Vid, which is dif but at least similar in that they are PCIe, I had eliminate those specs, in my mind, as the trouble.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm going to look at updating the chipset drivers for the Dell today as I haven't done that yet (it's new to me).

I'm hearing good things about those FireGL cards. I've got x700 and x300 (Dell).

jacross
08-05-2005, 11:46 AM
omayhemo,

Did the cards come with the machines (specifically the Dell) or did you buy them separately? I'm just curious on if their Dell stock or a different mfr.

You mentioned that you upgraded and rolled back the chipset drivers for the board, just out of curiosity have you checked to see if there is a bios upgrade? Have you also checked to see if there is a firmware upgrade for the cards themselves? Lastly, just for snits and giggles, have you tried switching the cards and putting the X700 in the Dell and the X300 in the other machine?

Again, just my $.02.

oh, and watercooling :rock:

:goodluck:

omayhemo
08-05-2005, 01:28 PM
The home machine is custom built, so the card was chosen by me. The Dell came with the card that's in it. And it belongs to my work, so switching isn't an option.

I did a bios upgrade when I built the home system, just a month or two ago.
Firmware upgrades I haven't looked into, and will.

Thanks again.

jacross
08-05-2005, 07:44 PM
I look forward to hearing how it turns out! Please let us know if, and what fixes your issue.

^AFRO-PUFF^
08-27-2005, 11:52 AM
ok......... when the screen scrambles, its probs because you have the setting up too high on your card, for instance i have the 9800xt and when i installed the new graphics drivers, i went in an turned up all the 3d settings manuley then i started to have the "Screen Scramble" so i went bk and used the standerd maximum settings and the scramble went away. problem fixed :foreheads

omayhemo
08-27-2005, 11:57 AM
Download the latest Omega Drivers, they're far more stable with LW.
Still crashes too much. :thumbsdow

DC777
08-27-2005, 05:23 PM
I currently am using 2 different systems for Lightwave:

#1 - AMD Athlon 2.0Ghz 1GB RAM with a ATI Radeon 9800pro

#2 - P4 3.0 with HT 1GB RAM with a ATI Fire GL3100

System #1: LW rarely crashes and great performance inside of the workspace.

System #2: LW performance is slow and unresposive as well as crashes, even when there is a clear scene and you are just perspective roataing. This problem was fixed or so I thought by choosing a Lightwave 3D setting in the Advanced Tab in the display settings of Windows, as well as driver updates. However the moment I load a simple sphere object the whole workspace becomes slow again. Considering the second machine has a faster CPU and a supposed more robust card, my productivity on the system is diminished.

My feeling is that time is money and any reduced performance despite any card manufacturer results in poor manifestations. Shed whatever you feel handicaps you. My encounter with Lightwave tech support revealed that many were having ATI problems, despite my split results from the same card manufacturer, I will be going with Nvidia, next time around on 2 upcoming system builds, I will keep you guys posted!