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Patrick Flasch
04-05-2003, 03:53 PM
Being a long time Avid / Final Cut user... and given the fact that I'm a "Mac Guy" (also a Certified Mac Tech)... wouldn't it be GREAT if NewTek was working on a Mac version of Video Toaster!!!???

Is this just wishful thinking??? or can we start a wave of support for a Mac version!?

Patrick

Paul Lara
04-05-2003, 03:55 PM
Since VT[2] makes heavy use of DirectShow functions within windows, it would be a monumental effort to port over to MAC.

Patrick Flasch
04-05-2003, 04:01 PM
:( ... OK, but where there is a will...... and a hope...

But, UNIX is the vision of the future!! Just ask Sun or Silicon Graphics!!

OK, I'll just keep hoping!!

Patrick

wvp
04-06-2003, 05:35 PM
another great reason not to use mac

Patrick Flasch
04-06-2003, 07:03 PM
OK... not trying to start a "flame war"... BUT, I'm a Certified Mac Tech... but I have have certs in Dell, HP and have studied for my MCSE but never took the actual test!

In my experience, whenever I hear a remark like that, it's because the person usually does not have any experience with the current Macs, or OS X!

I've been doing computer support for more than 15 years, I'm I'm the first to admit that BOTH platforms have various strenghs and weaknesses!
The Mac is simply one of the best graphics computers (not including the higher end HP, IBM & SGI) for the money!
With that said, I must also say that within the last year or so, Motorola (Apple's CPU manufacturer) hasn't kept pace with the Intel / AMD side as far as RAW CPU speed goes... but that is just one variable in the "big picture"! Apple is a RISC platform, Intel Pentium & AMD are still CISC. CISC is not as efficient as RISC, thus requiring much faster CPU speeds to accomplish the same number of instructions to the CPU. From Intel, the RISC chip for the desktop is at least a year away... and then all of the software vendors must recode! NOT an easy task!!
Apple is looking at Intel to possibly manufacture a RISC chip for them (since Motorola is too busy making chips for cell phones and cable boxes... a MUCH larger market!). They also have been talking to IBM to use their 970 chipset (currently to be used by IBM in their UNIX based workstations... MUCHO POWER!!)

So, in a nutshell, if you haven't really looked at a PowerMac G4... running OS X, do yourself a favor and investigate it again! I think that you will be surprised!!

As for the Intel side... I will be building a dual 2.8 gig, running under the Intel E7505 chipset, with dual channel Adaptec SCSI 360 onboard controller chip... WHY???... because I believe that you should use the right TOOL... for a given application!!! The VT LOVES CPU speed and RAM!!!... and doesn't run under OS X... yet!! ha ha ha

Patrick

wvp
04-07-2003, 08:48 PM
I figured that would get a reply from you!
Actually one of the systems we use is a Final Cut system.
It was bought about 18 months ago and the guy who bought it thought he would get support from Apple when needed as everything is Apple - Wrong!
Unfortunately he knows very little about computers. He has never gotten the dvd software to work and the system crashes far too often.
When he contacted a local Apple support company they said they could not help because they do not know the Final Cut program. When he contacted Apple, they said he needed to buy a $750 year of "support". He did that. Then they said they could not help him until he had they latest versions of the operating system, Final Cut & the dvd program.
I have helped him in downloading what I could, but some of the upgrades are only available via CD and/or at a cost.
After 18 months, he has no support available unless he is willing to spend more money.
In HIS words "I wish I had bought the Toaster"

I will admit my only experiance with current macs is in helping him. I have not found them so "easy" to use as they claim.

sbrandt
04-07-2003, 10:55 PM
I, or rather we, do use both Mac and x86 machines.
The two machines that run similar apps are, my A7M266d Asus and my girlfriend's big dollar 1.4GHz Mac dualie that daddy bought her. This is not my VT[2] machine, it runs only the same publishing apps as her; Adobe InDesign2, PhotoShop7, Illustrator10, Corel11, and lots of filters and plugins...(the usual publishing fare). The machines set maybe 15 feet apart and the WORK LOAD IS ALMOST IDENTICAL. I do a lot of work for Insurance Companies, (if you've ever seen Broker World, Life Insurance Selling Magazine, Underwriters Journal, etc. then you've seen my stuff) and she works for Western Horseman and freelances on the side. And the long and the short of it is... my AMD Asus runs CIRCLES around the Mac... (the best thing about it is the ATI Radeon video card... whoopee!). In the REAL world where the WORK meets the ink on the PAYCHECK... the Mac gets smoked every time !!! (period)
In fact, the ONLY thing the Mac can run faster than the x86, is Invigorator for Photoshop. But that's because it won't run on an x86 platform.

Brian Peterson
04-08-2003, 12:53 AM
I'm typing this on my G4, while I watch my Toaster Machine render an Mpeg 2 clip. As someone who has taken a look at the present Mac, all I can say is Steve Jobs is screwing the pooch. Oh we're getting new versions of FCP, and DVDSP shortly, but what's the use. They are expected to run on a machine that in the computer world is considered to be from the middle ages... It's freaking slow! Slow, slow, slow. And with OS X, it's compounded by the constant lollipops from hell of slowness!

I like OS X, it looks, and feels better than Win XP. It looks like it was designed for adults and not children. But it has a freeze problem that is extremely irritating.

Apple has to seriously get their rears in gear, when I can purchase a speced out Wintel or AMD box, that makes a Mac look like a tortis for the same amount as the Mac, then the decision is obvious. No matter how nice the OS looks when it comes to pure processing power, you can have slow or you can have speed. I know several Mac heads who are bailing, I'm building a dual Xeon for one of them right now. The only thing Mac has going for it is FCP, which the Toaster is about to smoke with version 3 and DVDSP, which I have a feeling that Adobe is going to put to shame on the pc shortly.

Apple has seriously fumbled the ball with no relief players in site, so that is why instead of an OS X port, I say.... Linux! yah baby! :D

Patrick Flasch
04-08-2003, 08:52 AM
OK everyone... I'm not trying to fight the Apple vs PC wars here.
Everyone has their opinion... and the right to express it!!!

Apple is going thru an "adjustment" as we speak! Unfortunately for Apple (and IBM) they got into bed with Motorola who has really screwed them as far as the "CPU Speed Wars"!!
Apple is trying to rectify that, but this will take some time!

As far as one platform smoking another in test speed results, please take these as only marketing doo doo!!!
Again, having dealt with BOTH platforms for years I can tell you that I can do a series of tests that can make whatever platform shine!!
i.e. Apple does a series of "actions" in Photoshop that blow away a Pentium 2.8 gig... how... because all of the actions use the Motorola Altivec engine in the chip... and since Adobe wrote certain actions to take advantage of this, the actions run REAL fast!! On the other hand, ANY PC manufacturer can run a different set of "actions" that take advantage of "floating point" calculations... and it will smoke a dual 1.42 gig Mac!! It's mainly a MARKETING demo!!!

As far as the "colorful lollipop" goes... yeap!!!... you are correct!! But, I was around when Microsoft first released NT!! Talk about a screwed up system!! But as with anything over time, they were able to make it stable... but it took years!
Unfortunately for everyone running a Microsoft based OS... there are other things still wrong with the OS!! For example, security holes so large that you can drive a truck thru them... viruses abound, and every week SARC (Symantec AntiVirus Research Center) has to put out updates to virus scanning software... many people running Outlook can tell you about horror stories about how their machine was infected, and their Outlook address was used to send out really bad email... DOS (Denial of Service) attacks on networks, and the internet using security holes in the Microsoft OS!!

PC techs can tell you horror stories about getting hardware to play nice with other hardware in the same box... and this is because of the open system that is used on the PC side! Apple decided to not open that can of worms early on and kept their systems closed... this is also why when you play in a printer, scanner etc... it just WORKS!! The down side is that many manufactures do not want to build equipment to a certain spec... so they only have the PC side!

So as I said in an earlier email... both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses!!

I assume that you have all seen the "not so cute" little sticker in the rear window of a Ford or Chevy truck of the little boy "wee weeing" on the competition...
I also have a Marketing backround... and the first thing that you learn is to KNOW YOUR COMPETITION as well as you know your own product!! Don't guess or assume ANYTHING! Don't believe anything someone tells you unless you know "for a fact" that what they are telling you is true!

OK... this has been fun!!! As far as the Mac problems wvp, sbrandt and Brian are having... I'd be happy to help offline, just let me know!

Patrick

JReble
04-08-2003, 09:15 AM
I've seen all of this rhetoric a thousand times before so I guess I need to weigh in here. I've got experience with both platforms under use in a variety of applications. It seems to me there is a serious "little man" syndrome going on with Mac users.

Yes, Macs do some things a little better. They ought to since the core hardware on current systems was able to build upon IBMs mistakes and many that came after which has locked the PC platform into a few hardware limitations it is only recently finding ways of correcting. The bottom line for me however, has always been market share. When you have a large variety of original and OEM manufacturers producing hardware and software for a platform, that platform will be better supported, better developed, and better received by end users. The downside is that all the variety of product (while a very good thing) will inevitably result in some poor hardware and/or software packages from a few developers. This tends to confuse some components of the market and make the overall platform stability unclear when low quality products are allowed to hit the market.

Still, that's the price you pay for having a platform that reaches and is supported by 90 some percent of the market. Apple's only benefit to their approach is that they control what goes out into the market hardwarewise, and they are the sole provider of the major components. That makes Apple consistent, but far from better. No matter how many people tell me fish stories about how their Mac will run circles around this or that, or how it will run anything you have on your "other" system, not one of them is ever going to convince me it is a better platform. I have never seen or had a Mac that was more stable than a properly constructed Intel based PC of any speed. I have seen several that were about as stable as your basic Compaq, HP, or Packard Bell turnkey system, but that's nothing to aspire to in the least. Unfortunately, the end user doesn't have another variety of Mac to turn to so it's lock-up city baby.

The best thing about Macs is that they represent some form of competition that will keep the development of all PC hardware moving in the right direction. Now if we could just do away with Microsoft and move the market to a better OS on a largely unified platform, then we'd be in business.

Patrick Flasch
04-08-2003, 09:54 AM
Amen to that last paragraph!!!

;-)

Patrick

sbrandt
04-08-2003, 02:06 PM
...Reble's last paragraph too.
What want to see is... Job's porting OSX over to x86-64.
AND choose the AMD Hammer's for the Mac hardware.

If he were to do it quickly, so many users would change to Macs so fast, he wouldn't have to worry about Microsoft owning 10% or 14% or whatever it is, of Apple stock. Jobs could buy Microsoft out and be able to dictate terms to Billy boy then...


.........hmmmmm... Jobs more powerful than Gates........ (maybe that's not such a good idea afterall)

sbrandt
04-08-2003, 02:08 PM
"What want to see..." = "What I want to see..."

tonsofpcs
04-08-2003, 03:16 PM
Why not port it to Amiga as well?! There already are Video I/O cards for it [Flyer....] all that would be needed is software.

Jim Capillo
04-08-2003, 03:23 PM
Hell, why not the abacus too ?????? :confused: ;) :D :p

JReble
04-09-2003, 10:19 AM
Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been tweaking and found I can make the Toaster work in my TRS-80 model I. I'm currently having great success getting it going as well with my Colecovision A.D.A.M. computer! It's amazing what this one little card can do! Only problem currently is that the damn joystick controllers won't move the t-bar. Whatup with that Paul??? :D

Jim Capillo
04-09-2003, 11:22 AM
Hey Jeff,

I had one of those ADAM "computers". It had a tape drive that served as a psuedo "hard drive". Took forever to do anything!

I think they sold them in 'Toys R Us' or someplace......

robewil
04-09-2003, 11:34 AM
Hey, maybe if we could string a few thousand of those tape drives together, we'd create a RAID suitable for non-compressed video.

JReble
04-09-2003, 12:14 PM
Yup. Toys -R- Us and Circus World Toys, a place I once worked at as a young one. They even sold the Nintendo Robotic Assitant that came with the old NES system. I'm using him to roll tapes for me in the other room.

Update: I can now report that I have attained limited success interfacing the Toaster 2 into a Teddy Ruxpen. Only problem so far is that his eyes close when I run the CG. Dammit Paul!

ingo
04-09-2003, 01:51 PM
Me thinks we should make a weekly price for the most hijacked thread, this week i will vote for this one. Only two serious messages to the thread subject, great.
Now back to the subject : As a Mac user i remember After Darks Flying Toasters, is Video Toaster something similar ? :D

robewil
04-09-2003, 02:53 PM
OK, I'll attempt a serious response.

Seriously, instead of waiting for a Video Toaster for Macintosh, why not just invest in a turnkey VT system and forget the whole Mac vs. PC thing and concentrate instead, on what's best for you and your business? Consider that the PC itself is really only 15% to 20% of the total price of the full system.

Jim Capillo
04-09-2003, 03:07 PM
Ingo,

I'd agree with Rob. If you want to do serious video work with the Toaster, who cares what case it's in? The PC has a power switch just like the Mac, a mouse and keyboard.

The best part is that the Toaster runs in it, and as Paul has said, due to hardware/software limitations, it is unlikely that it will be ported to the Mac anytime soon.

It's here, just in a pc wrapper.