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View Full Version : rigging section please



pooby
09-24-2004, 09:55 AM
We should have a rigging section in the forum..

Castius
09-24-2004, 10:13 AM
The idea is nice but some times when you split up forums to much you get less coverage from users. There are so many catagorys you could break up this forum into. By the time you do that you will be having one on one conversations or worse none at all. Using search and users making well defined topic is really the best way to go.

pooby
09-24-2004, 11:22 AM
you're right..

It's just that It's lightwave's weak-point and it'd be great to have more ideas shared about this aspect of it..

blabberlicious
09-25-2004, 04:24 AM
you're right..

It's just that It's lightwave's weak-point and it'd be great to have more ideas shared about this aspect of it..


I think weaK point it right - but I think you'll find that any formal kind of area would decend into a pit of despair, because if you read many posts by experienced riggers, they will bemoan the problems associated with doing any serious character work in LW.

Not impossible (read my lips, before anyone jumps in) - just a pain in the butt (read Jin Chong's thread about 7.5 IK). Add to that the dopetrack, which is an inconsistent mess, offering the sort of lame functionality I would expect on a 90's cellphone - not a professional 3D app.

That may sound harsh - but try using it for a few days and you'll probably be a shocked as me. UNDOs are only available for keys that remain selected in the DTrack - this defies belief, I've used motionbuilder, C4d and they have managed to offer what has to be THE most basic functionality. The LW8 Bone tools don't seem to have any contrained movement (correct me if I'm wrong), and no means (other than reloading the scene) of UNDOING.

Crazy.

What really galls me is that, for mac users, the already needlessly convoluted rigging process doesn't even have the benefit of the New Bone Tools' which have been broken since the 8 release. Fixing these doesn't seem to have been high on the list of NT's priorities, and I was ultra disappointed that after the update, NT appeared to have forgotten they weren't working - even though it was one of the first bugs that got reported and was the subject of a particualrly instense thread, in which LW users were asked by NT not to criticise the code. (?)

I recently got a email back from the gracious Scott (mac guy), which did not give me any more idea of when I can see a fix. I can't understand why NT can't contact he author and get it fixed? Without these tools working, what am I supposed to do? Spend hours/day rebuilding rigs? Because it's impossible to scale or twist bones in layout?

C'mon!

I'm trying to make a living here, guys! So can you give me the tools to do the job?


So please NT, I'm not criticizing the code - I'm sure it fine - when it's made to work :-)
When that happens perhaps, I could contribute some ideas about how to use it...



Thank you

pooby
09-25-2004, 07:24 AM
Well. It's weak, but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.. There is a lot you can do with its limited resources with a bit of ingenuity..
There's no point sitting and waiting

blabberlicious
09-25-2004, 10:12 AM
Well. It's weak, but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.. There is a lot you can do with its limited resources with a bit of ingenuity..
There's no point sitting and waiting

Sorry to sound harsh, but I find comments like that infuriating.

When you consider that Bone tools were included to patch 'the hole' in workflow between rigs>modeller >layout, and to make re-rigging possible then I think it's perfectly fair comment to ask for those tools to work - especially when the 'workarounds' involve hours & hours of re rigging.

How much 'ingenuity' would it take for NT to:

a) contact the author of the plug in
b) ask him/her to make it work
c) make sure it works before they release it
d) post it for download


If that's too ambitious, then I guess I've misunderstood the whole deal about customer service.

SplineGod
09-26-2004, 12:42 AM
Im pretty sure Newtek is getting those things fixed. Also whether or not LWs rigging tools are weak or not is debateable obviously. I can pick apart various aspects of any application. My suggestion is that:
1. Send suggestions in to newtek on what you think could be improved.
2. Learn how to rig in Lightwave
3. Look at motion builder, messiah etc.

I dont feel that LWs character tools are as weak as some suggest. I use them pretty successfully on a routine basis. :)

midosujisen
09-26-2004, 01:21 AM
I dont feel that LWs character tools are as weak as some suggest. I use them pretty successfully on a routine basis. :)

Do you use them on a Mac?

SplineGod
09-26-2004, 01:40 AM
Do you use them on a Mac?

I sure dont but Im pretty sure, as I said, that Newtek is fixing whatever issues there are on the Mac. :)

midosujisen
09-26-2004, 04:23 AM
I sure dont but Im pretty sure, as I said, that Newtek is fixing whatever issues there are on the Mac. :)

Exactly, but when the fix comes months later, you might be able to understand/smpathize with the frustration many of us Mac people face. You're able to do what you want on a PC, where there are even more work arounds and/or bugs.

Even though Lightwave comes with two disks, one for a PC and one for Mac, Lightwave wasn't created equal. Depending on your platform, you have many more advantages or disadvantages with the same program.

pooby
09-26-2004, 06:32 AM
Sorry to sound harsh, but I find comments like that infuriating. etc..

Blabberlicious.. you have missed my point entirely..

I know that lightwave has a lot of disappointing half-arsed new features. I, for one wish that the time spent on developing IK boost was spent on their original system. I find it useless, however much Splinegod sings it's praises as a valuable addtition.
I don't bother with the new rig tools much, and I don't ever use skelegons I find them more hassle than they're worth, plus they don't work well with many of my rigs, as I often use floating bones and bizarre hierarchies to achieve certain ends.

I have complained loads about all the feebleness of 8's so-called animation features.. And that's not the point of this thread

My Point was......

Given what we have.. It would be good to have a place where animators and riggers can share ideas to create the ultimate set up, or at least some good workable ones.

for example.. I have just created an XSI style spine rig which I think revolutionises animating characters in lightwave. It's in tips and tricks.. but I think the 'tips and tricks' section is a bit vague..

Plus a few weeks back I made an IK/FK blender and posted that..

It would be good to have a place where ideas and resources can be easily accessed by us that are interested in rigging rather than hidden amongst tips and tricks on lighting, texturing etc etc

perhaps there is another forum site that has this?

blabberlicious
09-26-2004, 06:47 AM
pooby:
Pls don't get me wrong. I have no objections to a rigging section, at all - good idea.
- and the stuff you are developing looks very interesting. Makes sense to have place to nail that stuff. I find Spinquads dynamics forum a great example of a focused forum.

But (to sidetrack again :-) I just think it depressing that a very large aspect of the the new layout rigging enhancements can't be used by mac users - which means we can't experiment and contribute to the development of the application we own.

I know it's irritating for PC users out there to hear this, but in this case, it's a whole family of plug-ins that plain don't work.

We mac guys wanna play too!

pooby
09-26-2004, 09:32 AM
Ok, thanks..

I just joined spinquad

blabberlicious
09-26-2004, 10:41 AM
Yo Pooby,
Speaking of rigging - ahave you used Kung Foo Tools? I'm having a problem Mirroring Skelegons.

Example:

1. Select a Right arm Skelegons chain- all named with 'Bone_R_001', etc
2. KungFu>SKGManager>Mirror Bones
3. Accept Naming convention
4. Bones are mirrored and renamed - nice!
5. Open Up DStorms Skelegon editor
6. The Mirrored bones names haven't been renamed? 2 sets of _R bones
7. Close and re open object, then check the names in Skel Tree of Skel Editor - they have reverted back to the old names???

You getting this?

pooby
09-26-2004, 12:37 PM
I've not used them.. I don't really use skelegons. sorry.

SplineGod
09-26-2004, 03:49 PM
Exactly, but when the fix comes months later, you might be able to understand/smpathize with the frustration many of us Mac people face. You're able to do what you want on a PC, where there are even more work arounds and/or bugs.

Even though Lightwave comes with two disks, one for a PC and one for Mac, Lightwave wasn't created equal. Depending on your platform, you have many more advantages or disadvantages with the same program.

Oh believe me I can sympathize. Ive had my problems and they never occur at a convenient time. :)

SplineGod
09-26-2004, 03:52 PM
You should be able to mirror skelegons with just the standard modeling tools.
I also find it useful to use the spreadsheet to rename bones and renumber them.
Skelgons can be useful if you know about some of the gotchas. Ive always been able to use bones directly in layout for rigging too.