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View Full Version : Dope Sheet - who is the dope?



blabberlicious
09-13-2004, 03:09 AM
Probably me - but I'm having trouble understudying the functionality of the Scene Editor Selection Mode.

1. Open a scene with millions of bones objects, etc....(ahhh!)
2. Carefully multi select a group of objects and make a Selection Set 'pants' (ooooh!)
3. Deselect, then go to the Sets pop up and select 'pants'
4. Objects selected.....(vigourous nodding)

Now... call me a Dope, but I assumed that the HIDE button would 'solo' these tracks - enabling me to see just the selected key-frames.

Click the 'hide' button does this, but if you sunsequently select any of those 'soloed' item their companions disappear.

Turning off Hide dumps the everything back into view albeit with the selection set intact (boooo!).

I'm confused, and a bit sleep deprived (so bear with me)

Is there a way to SOLO the selection set and keep all the set items exclusively in view while you individually select them?

I am sure I've missed something obvious, because, as it stands, it seems really dumb....


I will gladly accept the title of 'Uber-Dope' if someone can put me out of my misery.

many thanks

:confused:

blabberlicious
09-13-2004, 04:34 AM
Sorry, but I don't get this either.


I can't see how the REVERT button functions. Am I missing something?

It doesn't seem to revert the cell propery(s) edit.


Tried this on a mac and a PC - doesn't work on either.

Any ideas?

Again, apologies if I've missed something...

blabberlicious
09-15-2004, 03:14 AM
Come on guys! Where are you?

mechis
09-15-2004, 08:44 AM
About your first post:
There isn't a way to solo select via the scene editor, if you are hiding items via a selection set. However, once you have selected your selection set and hidden other items, you can solo select items through the main viewport. You just can't use the scene editor to select stuff.
~Mechis

blabberlicious
09-15-2004, 10:50 AM
Sorry mechis - but that really doesn't make sense at all :-(

I've asked other LW users and they all complain about the same thing.

If I've got 20 objects in a 500 object scene I want to isolate and work on them individually (very common), then I want to be able to edit them Clean without scrolling through tons of other objects, or worse still having to continually go back and choose the selection set .

I'm amazed it's not been mentioned before.

FOR INSTANCE:
Why not include a toggle/tickmark on the Filter Pop Up Tab to EXCLUDE anything that isn't part of the current selection set.

This way you could set up your selection sets prior to animation, then 'group solo' sets of objets and edit them individually

Isn't that the point?

I guess if each set had zillions of objects then you would be back where you started, but I do feel there a better way to make this functional.


I'm sure the good users of the LW forum could think of a solution THAT ACTUALLY WORKS :-)


p.s Apart from the RESET button that doesn't do anything, I must add that I very please with the scene editor a& dope-sheet.

I just want to work smarter, and avoid RSI whenever possible.

anieves
09-15-2004, 10:50 AM
you know that adjust properties pop up annoys the hell out of me. why cann't I just simply multi-select and just click them off or on? instead of a pop up?

blabberlicious
09-15-2004, 11:06 AM
you know that adjust properties pop up annoys the hell out of me. why cann't I just simply multi-select and just click them off or on? instead of a pop up?


I happily accept that LW ain't no C4D when it come to interface design - but I'd live with it if it WORKED.

It doesn't.

Maybe the RESET bottom Does work; perhaps it's linked via the internet to some other poor LWavers scene file ;-)

I will post to NT, I just want some feeback from users before I do, so that we can be part of the solution.

;-)

Earl
09-15-2004, 11:20 AM
Maybe the RESET bottom Does work; perhaps it's linked via the internet to some other poor LWavers scene file ;-)


Man, this explains a lot. ;)

toonafish
09-15-2004, 01:27 PM
Yep, just disable "auto apply selection to view ports" in the options>items settings. Then whatever you select in the scene editor will not affect what you have selected in your scene.

Maybe you already know this, but you can select in the scene editor what you have selected in your scene with Ctrl + Shift + RMB > "Highlight View port Selection".




Click the 'hide' button does this, but if you sunsequently select any of those 'soloed' item their companions disappear.


:confused:

blabberlicious
09-16-2004, 04:54 AM
Come on guys! Wake up!

At the risk of sounding insane, isn't anyone interested in this?
I can't imagine anyone who regularly work with character stuff or complex scenes wouldn't be tearing their hair out about this. It the sort of 'negative workflow' issue that add HOURS of needless clicking and selection - particularly if you a working on with small display real estate.

Toonashish. Thanks for the reply, but disabling auto select doesn't make any difference. Call me mad, but the purpose of creating a select set group items together so that hey can be selected! If you disable 'selection in layout' you can indeed 'solo' the set and click through the set items - but the moment you RIGHT click to select one, or use the arrow keys to scroll up the list, the un-selected objects disappear.


There HAS to be a better way of making this behave, so that sets you are working on 'stick; in scene editor.

AND WHILE I'M AT IT... WHAT ABOUT THIS?:
Why doesn't the Item POP UP (below the timeline) and other 'Choose Item' Pop Ups correspond to the currently selected items in the scene editor? Instead you get EVERY FRIGGIN ITEM in the scene!

Add up the 1000's or hours LW users spend scrolling thought gigantic lists of objects, trying to taget a null to target, etc you could probably have given each one of them a weeks holiday :-)

Before anyone chimes in that I'm being neagtive, or inappropriate...I'm NOT! I just want some feedabck from users about a fix for this, beacuse that seems to be the best way this forum functions.

There go to be a better way than this - it hasn't been thought through - or for some reason (that escapes me) it isn't possible to do.


Cheers

toonafish
09-16-2004, 07:12 AM
I agree completely, and I've had my share of frustration and wonder when I tried to use the dopesheet and the new scene-editor. It amazes me that it was released in the shape it's in and was not updated with the latest patch. It's hard to find any logic in it's workflow and feels as if someone really had to wiggle his way around a lot of limitations in Layout.

Looks like some of the new features are built on top of the old stuff, not just the new dopesheet/scene editor but also the new timeline that's literaly put on top of the old one. Wonder about that one too, why the heck do we need two timelines ??

well...you got me started again ;-)


I just hope it someone at Newtek is working on it as we speak.

blabberlicious
09-16-2004, 08:04 AM
I agree with everything you say - but I usually get beaten up by forum members who think I'm too negative. But this particular workflow 'un-hancement' just maddens me.

It like someone started a UI, then gave up....

The multi edit RESTORE Button just does NOTHING. I'm guessing that undoing numerous values assigned to different objects meant that undos this this just weren't possible.

So why write it up in the manual?

Put the freaking button out of it misery!

If NT fixed this (or finished ) this feature, they'd earn the undying love of many, many members - and save all of us heaps of time...


I'll post this thread to support and let you know if I get a response.


Or, NT, you could 'go crazy' and post some sort of response

:-)

policarpo
09-16-2004, 08:14 AM
The DopeSheet is far from perfect, and takes some effort to get use to (i still don't understand it's logic of workflow, it's like taking two steps forward and three steps back at times).

The intent for a good tool is there, I just hope they fix it and map it out to a logical workflow in the next builds. The Dope Track and Dope Sheet really need to live in the same UI, not in two...that's just nutty.

There's a lot of 'quirkiness' in LW and the DS is a good example of this. I mean the fact that you have to interact with a pop-up to change a variable like Light Intensity...what the heck is that about? We didn't even have to do that in the old SpreadSheet.

Cheers.

Robi
09-16-2004, 08:23 AM
I'm using the old scene editor, the old spreadsheet and Keytrak because it works and I'm a lot faster with them.
The new scene editor and dopesheet is driving me mad.
It seems that none of the programers ever tried character animation.
:(

Castius
09-16-2004, 08:30 AM
This has only been a tinny annoyance of what has been a very helpful new tool. I plan on submitting a request for the filter to have an option for selection sets. The new scene editor/dope sheet has radically improved animating in layout for me. I just use good naming conventions to make sure I can use filtering or turn off apply selections, or use multiple editors in cases that need it. So itís not like itís a situation that does not have plenty of options to work around it.
Iím confidant that Newtek will continue make improvements on what has become one of the biggest new feature for me. You can only do so much in each version and 8.0.1 fixed the selection set bug. All we can do is put in or requests and hope for the best.

Dodgy
09-16-2004, 09:08 AM
As one of those members who feel a lot of people on here can be too negative.... have to completely agree. The scene editor workflow is annoying, e.g. you use different hotkeys from dopesheet timeline to layout timeline to every other timeline in lightwave for the same functions!!! This needs sorting out like so many little niggles...

toonafish
09-16-2004, 01:08 PM
you're not having trouble with Keytrack and LW 8 ?




I'm using the old scene editor, the old spreadsheet and Keytrak because it works and I'm a lot faster with them.
The new scene editor and dopesheet is driving me mad.
It seems that none of the programers ever tried character animation.
:(

nemac4
09-16-2004, 02:03 PM
Keytrak still works,.. the visual keys are black,.. so you can't see the key types,.. but still usable.

Robi
09-16-2004, 03:20 PM
Keytrak still works,.. the visual keys are black,.. so you can't see the key types,.. but still usable.
Only the TBC keys are black instead of light blue, everything else is like it was, so no problems here. :)

Castius
09-16-2004, 04:59 PM
Dopetrack has a long way before it can replace keytrak but thats a totally differnt topic guys.

anieves
09-18-2004, 10:11 AM
I have never used Keytrak but the dopetrack has improved my workflow a lot, I use it all the time. The 2 things that annoy me in the dope track is 1- the ticks are hard to pick and drag, they are so small, maybe if you select an area instead of the keys themselves would be easier to move, you know that highlight bar when you select the keys? If that bar just stayed "on" and you could grab it wherever you want it would be easier IMHO. 2- when moving channels... it annoys me having to turn off the channels I don't want to move in the info box... The DT has a lot more potential, I cann't wait to see what NT does with it in the future.

-edit-
@policarpo

I don't know if I agree that the DT and DS must live in the same place.... I like to quickly adjust keys without openning the DS/SE window.

Maya has kinda the same approach, you have a dope sheet but you can adjust your keys in the time line as well, you can adjust the keys right on the timeline without opening another timeline on top of the other one.

blabberlicious
09-20-2004, 02:54 PM
Here some user feedabck:
I just spent 2 day working with the Dopetrack, and it's just a mess - plain and simple.

Please - could someone explain to me WHY deleting KEY-FRAMES in DP has to involve a RMB, then scrolling down a menu? What happened to shortcuts? (or workflow enhancements). Why isn't DT mapped to the DELETE key - so when it's active the delete key targeted to frames.

Why are the UNDO edits for keyframes within the DT window so lame? DS seems only capable of remembering edits on keys that remain selected. That's mad.

Why do we have a 'frame all' shortcut in layout AND graph editor, again have to drill down into a menu to get the equivalent in DS?

Humph!

jrm3d
09-21-2004, 12:27 PM
I was so disappointed with the new dopesheet "workflow" that I went and bought MotionBuilder. Lightwave's new bone tools in layout combined with rig import/export provides a great workflow between it and MotionBuilder. Plus the next version of MotionBuilder coming out next month supports lightwave's subds

If you haven't checked out animating with motionbuilder you should download their demo.