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Hervé
09-04-2004, 01:50 AM
God, this is just as terrible as 11 Sept., and I'd like to give my condolences to all the Poor people over there.... Man , this is Insane...

Hervé :(

pauland
09-04-2004, 04:39 AM
Absolutely

Steve McRae
09-04-2004, 05:20 AM
i agree

I had trouble getting to sleep last night thinking about it - being the father of two small kids, it made me sick

to hell with fundamentalist islam and it's proponents

Nemoid
09-04-2004, 08:16 AM
Really, I have no words to define such a crime against humanity.
Hate is making those fundamentalists blind.
They are serving evil, not their god.

Condolences to all russians families involved.

Jalle
09-04-2004, 09:22 AM
Totally insane yes !
But there is one simple solution; give the Chechens freedom,
their own country and all will be fine n peaceful.
Look at the Balticum, now that they are finally free from Russian suppression,
they can live a normal democratic lifestyle.

/Jalle

mattclary
09-04-2004, 09:48 AM
No group of persons who would murder children in cold blood deserves to live, let alone to gain control of a government. If you give terrorists what they want, all you are going to do is encourage terrorists. What if they had just wanted a million dollars, should the Russians given them that?

If they want to fight for independence, I respect that, but to take a freaking SCHOOL?! To murder BABIES?!?! My willingness to be sympathetic to them is no longer possible.

trygve
09-04-2004, 10:06 AM
The people of Tsjetsjenia are of course not responible for this act, we must not forget that. Nor are muslims as a group to blame. Hate and blame will get us nowhere.

This is the work of sick individualists and groups, and extremists are dangerous no matter what or who they claim to represent.

All my thoughts go to the russian families who have lost someone. It's so meaningless.

trygve

mattclary
09-04-2004, 10:12 AM
Then I hope the people of Tsjetsjenia (is this a variation of spelling for Chechnya?) will help track down those responsible and send their heads back to the Russian governement along with a disavowal of the act.

smh
09-04-2004, 11:25 AM
The people of Tsjetsjenia are of course not responible for this act, we must not forget that. Nor are muslims as a group to blame. Hate and blame will get us nowhere.

This is the work of sick individualists and groups, and extremists are dangerous no matter what or who they claim to represent.

All my thoughts go to the russian families who have lost someone. It's so meaningless.

trygve

Well said,

Someone I know came from the Casablanca airport in Morocco yesterday, and he told me how local people were shocked, some even crying in front of TV sets, as they saw the horrible pictures in the news. The criminals who commit those acts, anywhere in the world, represent no one but the evil they serve. My heart is with the poor families who suffer from this madness, across the world...and almost every day now. I just pray for this to stop.

-SMH

archiea
09-04-2004, 01:46 PM
Not really related, but this makes you wonder whats the matter with some people in some parts of the world... where a simple IKEA opening turns into two fatalities....

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=50868&d=2&m=9&y=2004&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Kingdom


http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=50918&d=3&m=9&y=2004

cresshead
09-04-2004, 01:56 PM
my lasting vision of all this was a rescued little girl looking quite sad in the back of a car..not sure what to do or where to look, she had a sort of lost look about her.

i can't get my head around how some can "justify" their actions as a greater cause..either this or in other atrocities, having watched some programs on iraq and the sept 11 on british tv last week i'm finding that some of these people's views that we are "obsessed" with materialistic possessions could actually give them reason/justification to kill us is quite bizzar..they seem to have no conscience to other's pain and distress as they embark on a holy war to rid the world of infedels...of which apparently I am one of according to their beliefs.

they have no tollerence for others and reguard other people as sub human...

so where are we now 50 years after the holocaust?
what has the world learned?
...by what we see i'd say that some have learned nothing and have utter contempt for other people's views on how to live their life...even the young are now a legitamate target for their "holy cause".

so what next week?

no doubt somone will "go one better" to get themsleves heard on T.V.

my personal view on humans is that we live on a rock going around a really hot ball of gas on the *** end of a spiral galaxy...we live mainly on the "dry bits" and the fish live in the "wet bits"...everything else is just so much "B.S"
and uttery silly..just wish others could "see the light".

power-corruption-lies [always]

not a good week.

lesterfoster
09-04-2004, 03:12 PM
This just sickens me. That is all that I have to say

Excuse me, I have to go and puke my guts out.

mattclary
09-04-2004, 04:02 PM
Cresshead, I was watching a thing on the History channel about vikings and barbarians a few days ago, and it occured to me that overall, humans have made great progress in treating ech other better. These few groups really need to get with the plan.

smh
09-04-2004, 04:04 PM
Not really related, but this makes you wonder whats the matter with some people in some parts of the world... where a simple IKEA opening turns into two fatalities....[/url]

Then why post it here? This is as relevant to this thread, as a hooliganism incident...some other parts of the world. How would it relate to the suffering of terror victims?

lesterfoster
09-04-2004, 04:17 PM
this has touched me like it was just around the corner from where I live.

CB_3D
09-04-2004, 04:19 PM
Sick and depraved. I can´t even begin to imagine what i would feel if these were my kids...

My heart is with the families of the victims, allthough that won´t help a bit.

cresshead
09-04-2004, 05:03 PM
this maybe mis-directed somewhat but if "man" was on other planets these days such as the moon and mars and we saw them "wipe out" earth by putting a thumb between themslves and their sight of earth..then maybe , just maybe people woud "get" where human's are in the "big picture" and not do the awful things they do on this humble place we call earth "our home".

well, it would make a better place i believe...i'm just happy i'm not bringin up children in this "world"...to face the things they'll need to face if this continues on the course some have set us upon.

someone need to take the wheel and steer us to a better future somehow.

trygve
09-04-2004, 05:29 PM
Then I hope the people of Tsjetsjenia (is this a variation of spelling for Chechnya?) will help track down those responsible and send their heads back to the Russian governement along with a disavowal of the act.

Sorry, Tsjetsjenia is the Norwegian spelling. Yes I hope so too, and I saw an interview with a father from Tsjetsjenia, and he said "No parents can look at this and not cry". They have children and I'm sure they feel the pain and sorrow from the russian parents.

trygve

Elmar Moelzer
09-04-2004, 05:42 PM
My condolences to the relatives and friends of the vioctims of this terrible act.
I dont know how it is possible to do something like this to helpless children.
This will never help solve the problems of anyone. It will only lead to more hate and violence.
CU
Elmar

Panikos
09-04-2004, 06:44 PM
I am also very shocked and sad.

Such sick minds !

wacom
09-05-2004, 06:44 AM
I'm not trying to dirrectly blame anyone group here because you simply can't.
The problem isn't so much as based on one or two countries, but more a certain school of thought that helps form underground groups of fundamentalists with a very radical Whabi bend to them.

Many of these people are like those who took control of Afganistan a while back who were from outside of that area. In Afganistan there are groups of native, regional muslims that wanted the Russians (the soviet union) out of thier area. It was more about wanting their own freedom than simply religion.
The problem is that fundamentalists from other areas of the world took advantage of thier faith and turned the situation into one based strickly on religion- and took control even though most of the native population didn't want it. We all know where that has led the country/region of Afganistan.

It isn't even funny that these people are turning up, and have been, in southern Russia and the republics. It is so sad to see people take a conflict like those in this republic and try and whip religiouse ferver into it. People end up doing even more crazy things than they would have otherwise- like kill children.

What we need to remember about these groups too is that they are highly organized, and are well funded through MANY channels. We can't blame a country that has very little in the way of funds for even just ordinary police, if they are having a hard time finding and cracking down on these people.

What is more terrible is that many people in the region, up to 15-20 years ago, were warning us that things like this were going to happen if, when the soviets left Afganistan and the region, there was a vacume left behind to be filled by people such as these. Since it wasn't politically popular for the western countries involved in the area to positivly aid it (there was plenty of military and intellegence aid for the ousting of the soviets though) after the soviet pullout we are now dealing with this. It makes me so sad/mad to know that there were many chances for us to help prevent things like this in the past...but now...it's just crazy...

I feel so sorry for those children and the families. I hope this event gets the real analysis and coverage that it deserves to have- for those who died and for the future saftey of children and citizens everywhere.

CB_3D
09-05-2004, 09:24 AM
I hope this event gets the real analysis and coverage that it deserves to have- for those who died and for the future saftey of children and citizens everywhere.

I may be completely wrong on this, and please don´t misunderstand me. I am actually (in an ideal world) against censorship of any kind.

But...

...lately i have often thought about the role of the media in all these horrible excesses. The less coverage these hideous acts would get, the less they would exist...maybe.

As i said, just a thought, not an opinion...yet. Maybe it´s exactly the opposite. This is just to show how helpless one feels when these things happen...are done! What can be done against barbarism? How to respond? The more one thinks about it, the more one feels helpless.

How to react?
Eye for eye? My gut says yes, my head says (said) no.

As an example, a few days ago (before this happened) my girlfriend and i where discussing the death penalty. She was pro (in certain 100% proven cases, if such a thing exists) and i was contra. After this i am not so sure about my position anymore.

Horrible and frustrating, not only the acts , but also the fact that they make us doubt our own ideals.

EDIT:And of course, in no way, should we turn against religions, ethnicities or countries as a whole because of nightmares like this one. These acts are comitted by isolated groups...at least i´d like to think so. It is not less frightening because of this. It takes only a few to spread so much evil.

nerdyguy227
09-05-2004, 02:51 PM
It is horrable how people have absolutly no respect for others and use religion and war as excuses to kill people so they can get reconission and be viewed as an important person in history.

I do belive this is verry sad and it is, in my mind, right next to perl harber and the twin towers.


I am not Russion or Muslum.



The media is so anti-Bush that almost everything he says or does they are against. There was much less peice in the world before the war than now. The terrorests are really mad because they are out of power and have much less comunication abilities because of the patriot act and other things we have done to controle them more.

We have spent billions of dollars to make a very unpeicefull place where people wondered if they will live to next week into a country that is now a well-establised democracy.

Because of this, the terrorests know they are being traped and have no future in the world if we find them so they decide to go and terrorize the world as much as they possably can.

These horrable attacks will go on for many years, untill we further track them, find them, interregate them, and then put a stop by exicuting them.


They were born with the right to live and lost it because they thretined other live's.

If we did not exicute them, they might stay in jail, but other groups would most likely find a way to let them escape. The world is safer if we exicute them.

Much of this you will not hear on the news (maby fox you will) but that is bacause most of the news stations are 75-100% liberal.


Verry sad thing to happen :(

pauland
09-05-2004, 04:10 PM
I am very saddened to see such a post from anyone, let alone someone of 12 years of age.

Paul

scnorman
09-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Very sad that at 12 years old one should have to face such evil. You should be wondering what kind of superhero is elastic boy (something that still bothers me). The actual vile evil of those terrorists is a concept we can never allow ourselves or our youth to get used to - this is not to be allowed or explained. There is no explaination for deliberate murder of innocents and to the 12 year old go and create an animated character that changes hearts and banishes evil to another dimension. Go Kids Grow.

nerdyguy227
09-05-2004, 04:31 PM
:confused:

Steve McRae
09-05-2004, 04:34 PM
pauland - while I would not echo everything that nerdyguy said . . .

you have alot to learn about fundamentalist islam;

nothing will stop them except their deaths, your death or your conversion

Lightwolf
09-05-2004, 04:48 PM
nothing will stop them except their deaths, your death or your conversion
..I think that's why it is called fundamentalism, not that it has anything to do with religion (heck, I hope not).

I don't think though that adopting their methods will solve the problem, or make the world a safer place.

What happened the Chechenya is the act of a group of very deranged people, but the question still remains why humans can actually act like that.

As for the media coverage, there are other places in the world with even more gross incidents that get (almost) completely ignored be the media.

Mike

Rich
09-05-2004, 05:13 PM
Check out what this Cleric in the UK says about this. (Very shocking)

Cleric supports targeting children (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml)

An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Lightwolf
09-05-2004, 05:17 PM
Check out what this Cleric in the UK says about this. (Very shocking)

Yep, it is. what a sick pov (Not that I haven't heard people of another, or no religion, say similar things).

Cheers - or not...

Mike

Steve McRae
09-05-2004, 05:45 PM
..I think that's why it is called fundamentalism, not that it has anything to do with religion (heck, I hope not).

it's called fundamentalist islam and is 'religious' as you can get


..I don't think though that adopting their methods will solve the problem, or make the world a safer place.

umm.. . did anyone say that we target their innocent grade school kids and blow ourselves up in the process hoping that we would recieve a reward and better afterlife from allah ? . . .

there is no negotiation with these fanatics - educate yourself as to what these people want and their goals

Lightwolf
09-05-2004, 05:50 PM
it's called fundamentalist islam and is 'religious' as you can get
Erm, well, what about fundamentalist catholics, or protestants for that matter? Heck, there are even fundamentalist jews, atheists and probably even buddhists running around the globe. It isn't the religion that makes them fundamentalists, it is their intolerance (and no, not bigotry).

As for adopting their methods: As soon as you start pointing a finger at muslims you're already starting...

Cheers,
Mike

Steve McRae
09-05-2004, 06:07 PM
no, actually you're wrong.

fundamentalist islam is different than moderate islam - equating fundamentalism with people who are moderate muslims would insult moderate muslims - they are different schools of thought and they interpret the koran differently - you are the one unfairly and wrongly lumping all muslims together

no other group that (I know of) kills along with themselves innocent young life and expects to get a reward from doing so when they die

lesterfoster
09-05-2004, 06:36 PM
It is still OK to practice cannibalism in some countries.I know this because one of my co-workers brought in a magazine about this. I do not agree with that practice any more than killing children, on there first day back in school.

nerdyguy227
09-05-2004, 08:38 PM
...
I don't think though that adopting their methods will solve the problem, or make the world a safer place.
...

You see though, they are a threat to us so unless we become a threat to them, they win what they want-to controle us and our fear.

You and me are inocent people (I hope) so we should not have to be scaired. They, on the other hand, are not inocent so we should exicute them.

They are not "exicuting" us, thy are "mudering" us (us-refuring to normal people).


Exicute- to formaly have a person put to death because of past or current actions or thoughts (usually because of a situation that was ruled by court)
murder- an intentionall killing of another or many human beings

js33
09-05-2004, 10:51 PM
It's spelled "Execute". My brother-in-law leaves for Iraq soon. I hope that situation gets under control soon. It looks like we will need to help Russia now. The Islamic fundamentalists obviously have nothing to contribute to the world except hate and murder. That's the main problem I have with religion is that they preach peace and understanding yet they want to kill anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. This applies to all religions not just Islamic fundamentalists. The world will be better off when all people finally see the hypocracy of religion.

Cheers,
JS

Stand up for Civil Liberties and abolish the Patriot Act

pauland
09-06-2004, 12:55 AM
The sooner the thread is would up the better. What was an expression of support for the Russian families has been turned into some debate about the solutions to to the 'problem'. It can only turn ugly very quickly.

I have no sympathy for any terrorists, but the 'solution' won't be found (nor should it be) on any posting on Newteks site.

Paul

Hervé
09-06-2004, 01:18 AM
Chuck, please, I think it's time to close that thread.... unless you want to say something...?

please dont discuss politics and B... at Funerals....

God bless all the Children of the world. I wish for all the Children a better world than the one we have now...

Let's just hope !

Lightwolf
09-06-2004, 02:14 AM
no, actually you're wrong.

fundamentalist islam is different than moderate islam - equating fundamentalism with people who are moderate muslims would insult moderate muslims - they are different schools of thought and they interpret the koran differently - you are the one unfairly and wrongly lumping all muslims together

Actually, I'm not. I'm not referring to religion at all. There are fundamentalists, and those who aren't. full stop. Some fundamentalists are militant, which is what we tend to call terrorists (and there are plenty of them besides the ones that happen to be muslims as well).

What flag or belief they hide under is irrelevant.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
09-06-2004, 02:20 AM
please dont discuss politics and B... at Funerals....

You're right Hervé, I'll shut up now.

Maybe topics like this shouldn't be started on the LW forum in the first place (now that the general discussion is gone...).

Cheers,
Mike

retinajoy
09-06-2004, 02:33 AM
That's the main problem I have with religion is that they preach peace and understanding yet they want to kill anyone that doesn't believe what they believe. This applies to all religions not just Islamic fundamentalists. The world will be better off when all people finally see the hypocracy of religion.


First I would like to say how sad and distressing this whole situation is. I think everyone is horrified. I understand what it is like to lose loved ones and I am sure our thoughts are with them. To target children is pure evil. What turns a woman into a suicide bomber in a school or anyone for that matter? What makes them so filled with hate?

js33 - It is a minority of religous fanatics who kill. Twisted people will use whatever ideology they want to justify murder, even if they are athiests. The majority of practising religious folk are into peace and understanding. What you are saying is that over 4 billion people (Christians, muslims, hindus, Jews etc) are hypocrites wanting to cause trouble and kill people. Personally in reallity, I have found in people who trully believe in their religion (whatever that may be) have a deep respect for life and other people. My good friends include Christians, Catholics, Jews, Latter Day Saints and Muslims. They are a very tollerant kind and decent people I can assure you.

I am sorry for you that you feel such a way about religion (and over half the worlds population). We are all hypocrites is some way you know. I know I am, but hopefully less so as I grow up more. :)

OFF
09-06-2004, 05:19 AM
Totally insane yes !
But there is one simple solution; give the Chechens freedom,
their own country and all will be fine n peaceful.
Look at the Balticum, now that they are finally free from Russian suppression,
they can live a normal democratic lifestyle.

/Jalle
Jalle, you say "give the Chechens freedom,..Look at the Balticum, now that they are finally free from Russian suppression", etc.; ok, let's thinking : 1) Freedom for Chechens - i don't know what you look on, when you talking about it, freedom for lifestyle (islam, ..), freedom for peaceful people or finally freedom for, independent Chechnia, isn't it? ..from "Russian suppression". May be you are right, but. There was chechens? No one. Becouse each one chechen know about bloody revenge on Caucase. Even somebody was chechen, well, in this way i don't think he's has a motherland, family, nation or religion, they has only hateful to peoples, to life.
So, freedom. Now you say about 2)freedom in Balticum. Well, freedom it is good, when receive her on validity , It not that case. II (=III) World war far is not finished yet, as well as any other war . "Russian suppresion"....well, then, they should pay for the crimes, in fact thanking this suppression the Baltic countries have avoided the international court, and now they already it appears victims.
How you think?

Steve McRae
09-06-2004, 05:37 AM
Actually, I'm not. I'm not referring to religion at all. There are fundamentalists, and those who aren't. full stop. Some fundamentalists are militant, which is what we tend to call terrorists (and there are plenty of them besides the ones that happen to be muslims as well).

What flag or belief they hide under is irrelevant.

Cheers,
Mike

(sigh)

these people do what they do out of a religious belief, out of their THEOLOGY. Period. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the reason why they kill themselves in the process of their terrorist acts is to achieve better status in the afterlife. In the case of fundamentalist islam, you can blame their THEOLOGY. You can blame their RELIGION.


I am not degrading religious beliefs as a whole, but why you refuse to recognize this fact about this particular evil group is beyond me.

Lightwolf
09-06-2004, 06:12 AM
...out of respect for Hervé, we should take this elsewhere...

cheers,
Mike

js33
09-06-2004, 06:19 AM
js33 - It is a minority of religous fanatics who kill. Twisted people will use whatever ideology they want to justify murder, even if they are athiests. The majority of practising religious folk are into peace and understanding. What you are saying is that over 4 billion people (Christians, muslims, hindus, Jews etc) are hypocrites wanting to cause trouble and kill people. Personally in reallity, I have found in people who trully believe in their religion (whatever that may be) have a deep respect for life and other people. My good friends include Christians, Catholics, Jews, Latter Day Saints and Muslims. They are a very tollerant kind and decent people I can assure you.

I am sorry for you that you feel such a way about religion (and over half the worlds population). We are all hypocrites is some way you know. I know I am, but hopefully less so as I grow up more. :)

I didn't mean to imply that all religious people are hypocrits but the fact that most wars throughout history have been caused because of a difference in religious beliefs. Why people want to kill each other over a make believe guy in the sky is beyond me.

Cheers,
JS

pauland
09-06-2004, 06:23 AM
Can't we just scrap this (now) pointless thread?

Tom Wood
09-06-2004, 06:50 AM
Why people want to kill each other over a make believe guy in the sky is beyond me.

Every war, even those justified on religous grounds, is about competition for resources - usually real estate. There's just something comforting about tricking oneself into believing God is on your side. That that belief can lead to atrocity speaks volumes about our ability to delude ourselves. Which, in a lame attempt to get this remotely back on topic, is why stories work and why we willingly suspend disbelief when we sit down in the darkened theater.

My sympathy to the Russian families, the images of sorrow from there show how very much alike we all really are.

TW

scnorman
09-06-2004, 07:11 AM
Again, as artists and story tellers we have the tools to help inform and at it's best to heal. Of course our sympathies are with the familes who lost loved ones - As a New Yorker I know what they will face: constant memorial services- the hope that a friend will show up- maybe they did not go in that morning - then you hope for positive identification. Of course one wants to take action, and to puzzle out who the heck would target the most innocent among us - in Russia's case - the children. Let the governments do what we empowered them to do but as artists we also have a part to play.

Rich
09-06-2004, 11:02 AM
You're right Hervé, I'll shut up now.

Maybe topics like this shouldn't be started on the LW forum in the first place (now that the general discussion is gone...).

Cheers,
Mike

There is still a General Discussion section

General Discussion (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php?f=57)

Maybe this thread should be moved there instead.

Jalle
09-06-2004, 12:19 PM
1) Freedom for Chechens - i don't know what you look on, when you talking about it, freedom for lifestyle (islam, ..), freedom for peaceful people or finally freedom for, independent Chechnia, isn't it? ..from "Russian suppression". May be you are right, but. There was chechens? No one. Becouse each one chechen know about bloody revenge on Caucase. Even somebody was chechen, well, in this way i don't think he's has a motherland, family, nation or religion, they has only hateful to peoples, to life.

Freedom for me is the right to think, write and say your opinion
about anything and everything.
Hate is not given to you upon birth, it is grown from inside, from what you
experience in the world around you and how you and your loved ones are
being treated by others (e.g. friends, neighbours, neighbouring countries).


So, freedom. Now you say about 2)freedom in Balticum. Well, freedom it is good, when receive her on validity , It not that case. II (=III) World war far is not finished yet, as well as any other war . "Russian suppresion"....well, then, they should pay for the crimes, in fact thanking this suppression the Baltic countries have avoided the international court, and now they already it appears victims. How you think?

Not exactly sure what you mean. Only wrong the Balticum did during the
WW2 was being situated on the map as a good naval base for Russian fleet.

With a little more love and understanding this world could be a great place to
live. Thank to LightWave I can bring this utopia to my sceen.
Heck, this thread is going too far...

/Jalle

thekho
09-06-2004, 12:53 PM
I am very shocked and sad. My condolences to all russians families who have lost someone.

Silkrooster
09-06-2004, 10:00 PM
My heart goes out to those children that lost their lives in Russia. I could care less what country children reside in, when they get murdered my heart goes out to them. Children should never be in the middle of any violent attacts from any organization. I beleive this thread which has nothing to do with lightwave should now be stopped. When a forum is placed accross the world there will always be arguments to both sides as both sides beleive they are right. If no one else want to say their condolences then it is time to stop, this should always be a peiceful forum.
Silk

wacom
09-06-2004, 10:10 PM
As for the media coverage, there are other places in the world with even more gross incidents that get (almost) completely ignored be the media.

Mike

Like Sudan for instance!

Where are all the saber rattle'n to save the native Sudanese people? Does anyone even know how many children have been hacked to death there? Very sad.

This problem is far more complicated than calling a group "evil".

mattclary
09-07-2004, 06:23 AM
It has little or nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power.

Religion is used as a tool to control these fanatics. The only way we will ever get rid of this problem is to open all of these closed societies to the rest of the world. With information, hopefully, the masses will be less easily exploited.

pauland
09-07-2004, 06:57 AM
It has little or nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power.

Religion is used as a tool to control these fanatics.

I think you might have meant "Religion is used as a tool for control by these fanatics."

Paul (who should know better than keep this stuff going)

mattclary
09-07-2004, 07:09 AM
Religion is used as a tool to control these fanatics.

Nope, meant exactly what I said. The guys going out there and flying airplanes into buildings and murdering children are weak minded and they are not the ones running the show.

The suicide bombers are fanatical, the guys running the show just enjoy the power.

pauland
09-07-2004, 07:12 AM
Yes, guess you're right.

Paul

paulrus
09-07-2004, 08:01 AM
I encourage anyone in the US who is concerned about these types of situations (and remember they also hijacked 2 Russian airplanes and blew them up then a woman homicide bomber blew herself up in Moscow) read the 9/11 Commision Report.

The report covers wahabism, the funding of these organizations, how they recruit, and many other aspects of why these things are happening.

When you have a vast population of poor, illiterate, jobless people, who are desperately looking to blame someone for their problems, you can understand how they can be manipulated into doing these horrible acts. (sounds like Nazi'ism all over again, doesn't it?) So many parents want to give their kids a better life and the only choice they have for schools are wahabi schools where their kids are taught an extremist fundamentalist view of the world. Now you have generations who have gone through these schools and they're willing to kill and die for what they believe.

You can have candlelight vigils, protests, anti-war rallies, but the fact is you are never going to negotiate peace with someone who puts bombs in schools and shoots children in the back. The world has cancer and you can't talk it away.


Paul

Lightwolf
09-07-2004, 08:06 AM
Time to jump back in I guess... Sorry Hervé...

The world has cancer and you can't talk it away.

Absolutely, the problem is, you can't bomb it away either (as can be seen at the moment).
If you take the "cancer" analogy all the way you'll see what I mean...
Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
09-07-2004, 11:14 AM
The only way we will ever get rid of this problem is to open all of these closed societies to the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, this type of thing sometimes requires force.

Tom Wood
09-07-2004, 11:29 AM
The only way we will ever get rid of this problem is to open all of these closed societies to the rest of the world...Unfortunately, this type of thing sometimes requires force.

Nah, all we need do is send Britney on a worldwide tour sponsored by Pepsi, Disney and Levis. Which is exactly what is happening anyway. The Shah of Iran tried to speed things up and provoked a backlash, now half that country is under the age of 25 and they want...Britney, Pepsi, Disney and Levis.

In a way, it's the standard struggle between the Conservatives who want to hold on to the status quo, and the Progressives who want to move forward. It's just so difficult to keep straight who is who sometimes on the global stage. Bush a Progressive? 'Treason' says Coulter! ;)

TW

mattclary
09-07-2004, 11:35 AM
I agree, Tom. "Sometimes" requires force, but if you can get a McDonald's and an internet connection wedged into the country, we're halfway home. ;)

Steve McRae
09-07-2004, 11:40 AM
lol . . . :)

Lightwolf
09-07-2004, 11:45 AM
Nah, all we need do is send Britney on a worldwide tour sponsored by Pepsi, Disney and Levis.

Now _that_ is scary, especially Britney and Disney... heck, that might even turn me into a militant fundamentalist ;)

Cheers,
Mike

wacom
09-07-2004, 11:54 AM
I encourage anyone in the US who is concerned about these types of situations (and remember they also hijacked 2 Russian airplanes and blew them up then a woman homicide bomber blew herself up in Moscow) read the 9/11 Commision Report.

The report covers wahabism, the funding of these organizations, how they recruit, and many other aspects of why these things are happening.

When you have a vast population of poor, illiterate, jobless people, who are desperately looking to blame someone for their problems, you can understand how they can be manipulated into doing these horrible acts. (sounds like Nazi'ism all over again, doesn't it?) So many parents want to give their kids a better life and the only choice they have for schools are wahabi schools where their kids are taught an extremist fundamentalist view of the world. Now you have generations who have gone through these schools and they're willing to kill and die for what they believe.

You can have candlelight vigils, protests, anti-war rallies, but the fact is you are never going to negotiate peace with someone who puts bombs in schools and shoots children in the back. The world has cancer and you can't talk it away.


Paul

You might want to read "Ghost Wars" as well. Really made me understand how messed up and complicated this problem really is. I agree with much of your reasoning, but I can't say that military action is what is needed. The problem is every bit as much a political/social problem if not more so than a military one.

It doesn't make a politcally sexy sound bite so it's much easier for polititians to call things "good and evil" and lump huge groups of people together who don't really belong together. Egyptian extreamist Wahabi teachers, a Sudenese corrupted minoirity goverment, Saudi funding of Arab extreamists in Afganistan, Pakistani Intelligence support and funding, early CIA involvment in Afganistan in cordination with Pakistan...Indonesia...the Philiphines...

The implications of these areas and some of thier people in all this take at least 3 books at 600-1000 pages each just to begin to understand the problem...so much for the average western world citizen even coming close. Forget about any polititian having the time to tell the public (or wanting to) what is really going on.

I feel very sorry for any child who is killed in one of these acts as I do for the ones sold into slavery or forced to work long hours in factories. Is it really so easy to point just one finger?