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starbase1
09-03-2004, 06:08 AM
I had planned on buying myself version 8, as a birthday present, but not any more...

At over 400 pounds, I just can't afford it. And with the printed manual it's nearly 500! Now I admit that I am going from memory here, but I think thats about double the upgrade cost of last time!

Also its a huge increase on the price paid in the USA - I realise we never get a straight exchange rate cost for anything, but this really is nearly double. It's at the kind of level where it might seriously be cheaper to get a cheap flight and buy it there! (I don't think that US dealers are permitted to send abroad, is that correct?)

Am I missing something? Has there been a change in strategy?

(The newtek europe site is broken, with big missing images, and no links to UK dealers. )

At that kind of price I think I'd do a lot better to spend the money on some plugins.

Or is it possible to get a better price on the upgrade?

Cheers,
Nick

Lightwolf
09-03-2004, 06:35 AM
Hi Nick,
I just checked NT-E, it seems you mixed up the Euro and Pound prices.
Quote:
"Important: LightWave 3D [8] UPGRADE version with printed manual will be available in the second half of 2004 at approx. £400 + VAT."

VAT does come into play here though, absolutely right (VAT varies from state to state in the US, if it is charged at all).
I still agree though, looking at current exchange rates, that LW is more expensive in Europe. Some other vendors have adapted their local prices (then again, some haven't).

Cheers,
Mike

Lynx3d
09-03-2004, 07:16 AM
Yea it's kinda lame that the prices in Euro and US-Dollar are the "same"...

Hmm, according to yahoo the 400£ should currently be slightly less than 595€, so you actually get it cheaper currently :D
I haven't really understood the tax system in the US, but as i understand the prices are always without VAT or whatever it is called over there...somehow they gotta get ripped off too :D

mrunion
09-03-2004, 07:33 AM
Prices over here are given "as is", then tax is added depending on your state. For example, Tennessee is about 9.5% tax, so $495 comes to about $545.

Some states are less. We have no such thing as VAT that I know of -- unless you are just using that word to describe "state tax" in common terms.

Lightwolf
09-03-2004, 07:38 AM
I guess in this case we use the term VAT for any tax added to the price as quoted by NT ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lynx3d
09-03-2004, 07:45 AM
Wow, 9.5% is a bargain compared to the 16% over here...in UK it's 17.5%?

mattclary
09-03-2004, 08:18 AM
Yes, each state will have a sales tax. Here in Florida, the state sales tax is 6%, but the county I live adds 1.5% for a total of 7.5%.

In reality, when you order stuff off the internet, you pretty much never pay a tax on it though I think you are supposed to. Thing is, the state is taxing the purchase, not the sale, so the buyer is responsible for paying the tax. If I (in Florida) buy LW from Newtek (in Texas), Florida is the one who wants the tax.

Some states have a state income tax similar to the federal incom tax. Here in Florida we have so many tourists buying stuff that the sales tax they pay keeps us from having to pay a tax on our income.

You guys should really consider having a revolution, it's great for the economy.

starbase1
09-03-2004, 08:20 AM
Hi Lightwolf - 400 plus VAT is not a lot under £500 to my way of thinking! (470?)

I was pretty sure I paid about £250 for the last upgrade.

$495 I can afford, £470 I can't, so I am rather peeved.

And I REALLY don't see manuals as an optional extra! Although the PDF versions were a big step forward, (searchable!), I still find it very odd that a product in this price range lacks a proper context sensitive help function, (something even paintbrush boasts!). Come to that, Notepad has a proper 'Undo' and LW does not! ;)

Ah well, I'll try and be positive.

Anyone recommend good value plugins? I have IFW2 textures, (and could not live without it), and I don't do character work.

Nick

Lightwolf
09-03-2004, 08:26 AM
Nick, I know, but you can't mix up the US price without VAT with the UK price including VAT now, can you?

I agree that it is still too expensive though, and I think the manuals should be included as well, I hate to wade through tons of PDF or HTML pages, and there is no way to easily take it home and read it on the ... sofa ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
09-03-2004, 08:58 AM
My friend lives in Los Angeles, he just bought a Sony camera in New-York with internet... and he did not have to pay any taxes at all.... ! how's that ? :D

mattclary
09-03-2004, 09:15 AM
Like I said, you are supposed to, but it's hard to enforce.

http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18201906

Hervé
09-03-2004, 09:28 AM
he he.... like you said Matt, F-Prime rocks...! ;)

Thomas M.
09-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Lame is the strategy that you don't get the book/video offer in Europe as the guys/girls in the states do get.

500$=450€. That's 50€ extra costs (495€). And then we don't get the pritty books.

That's another 100€. Allthogether we pay about 150€ more (170$).

Not very nice!

So what do we Eropeans do? Order at Safe Harbour? Any suggestions?

bobakabob
09-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Hi Starbase1 I agree with all your points - I was dismayed when I saw the LW upgrade price as compared to $ US - just another example of 'rip off Britain' :( Newtek is usually so reasonable in their pricing. The basic price of Lightwave is fantastic value.

PS Any news on Newtek Europe? :confused:

art
09-03-2004, 11:04 AM
Like I said, you are supposed to, but it's hard to enforce.

http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18201906

Yeah, I too saved a bunch of money over the last few years by not paying taxes on my internet purchases. In Connecticut, we have 6%, but if I buy anything from a merchant in other state, I do not have taxes in my final price included. For more expensive items it more than covers for the shipping costs, etc. Matt is right, however, it is buyer's responsibility to declare those purchases at the time of yearly tax submissions. I think that currently very few individual buyers do that because as of now there is no clear way to enforce it. Some people already cheat so much on their annual tax returns, ommiting a couple of small web purchases is really minor thing compared to other tax evasions. However, they (the gov) will get to this issue sooner or later, i think. :(

LFGabel
09-03-2004, 11:59 AM
Like I said, you are supposed to, but it's hard to enforce.
Unfortunately not up here in Canada.

The government has it's money grubbing hands on the couriers, so there's no way to get past it. I am met at the door with "You need to pay the taxes now or you don't get your software". And of course the taxes are calculated on the canadian equivalent of the software cost, with brokerage/duty fees lumped into it.

The only way I have found to get past the taxes is if the software can be downloaded.

mattclary
09-03-2004, 01:04 PM
Man I hate freaking governments taking all our freaking money. I'd have to move if I were you guys, I think OUR government takes too much. :mad:

glassefx
09-03-2004, 01:55 PM
It seems as though that everything these days is going to hades in a handbasket! I personally think the NEW Newtek figures the british and or european people have more money so... Go figure!

I've learned quit a bit about this new Newtek in the past week - this is just icing on the cake.

I also wanted to take a second to say something... Someone mentioned Tennessee's HIGH as a kite Sales TAX earlier in this thread.... Well, yes its that high BUT we have no State Tax yet. Heck, if their were three items subtracted from my measly check each week, instead of two - well I'd get pissy!

Oh, Tennessee also has the highest entertanment tax also... Thats why hardly no bands come here on their concert tours...

Seems like they are always trying to create a new way to tax something.

I really think the government should only be allowed to tax a dollar or product ONE time and not everytime it changes hands...imagine...Thats like a magic pixie or something else as lame poofing out of thin air everytime you buy something from anyone and sticking its hand out and asking for its share... come on! - lame!

We are ALL STUCK in this failing system of economy for sure!

but then again I am sure this is all part of the END?

Every system has an inherint beginning and END.

Peace and stay as tight as dick's hat-band!

Lightwolf
09-03-2004, 02:17 PM
Man I hate freaking governments taking all our freaking money. I'd have to move if I were you guys, I think OUR government takes too much. :mad:
Well, since we get something in return, I think it is perfectly reasonable. Not that I agree with how every single Euro is spent, but the general idea is perfectly o.k. After all, I profit from it as well (Education, security, infrastructure, whatever).
But then again, we have a democracy here, and I have a bit of trust in my government ;) (Oops, starting a political discussion again... scnr :p )

Cheers,
Mike

Qexit
09-03-2004, 04:24 PM
I was pretty sure I paid about £250 for the last upgrade.
Hm, I don't think so. I just did some checking on my past upgrades and came up with :

LW4 or 5.5/5.6 to LW6.0/6.5 £299 + VAT and postage
LW6/6.5 to LW7.0 £299 + VAT and postage
LW7.0/7.5 to LW8 pre release £340 + VAT and postage (included DFX+ and a parallel to USB dongle upgrade)

The upgrade to LW8 currently costs £335 + VAT and postage from :

http://www.oneanimation.net/products.asp?manufacturer=25

So the price hasn't actually changed that much in recent times :)

Note for those outside the UK/EU. VAT = Value Added Tax = 17.5% in the UK on computer software and hardware...but zero on books.

wacom
09-03-2004, 04:39 PM
How did this turn into a tax issue? I live in Portland Oregon, and pay no sales tax, but a lot of income tax. I'm not one to gripe though, as Portland is a wonderful place to live...and buy software!

You get what you pay for...

LFGabel
09-03-2004, 05:29 PM
I'd have to move if I were you guys
Like Wacom says... we take the good with the bad, and really threre isn't much bad when you get right down to it. I, too, love where I live.


I really think the government should only be allowed to tax a dollar or product ONE time and not everytime it changes hands...
If that is truely happening, then that is a scam indeed. Businesses here don't operate like that. If we buy stuff to resell, then we are tax exempt, as it should be.

StrongBad
09-03-2004, 05:32 PM
Hi all,
I love living in Oregon where we have NO sales tax. I have heard that there is only one other state (maybe Rhode Island?) that shares this mixed blessing. I invite you all to come see the trees while they're still here!
Brian
Hot Carl Productions

John Fornasar
09-03-2004, 08:48 PM
Matt,

In the US, when the internet "boom" started, it followed old mail order taxing laws - if an item was shipped out of state, no sales tax was applied. This was left over from the "old" paper days, when it would be hard, if not impossible, for a company to track state and locality tax rates.

Now that the net is booming, there were some rumblings out of Washington that they wanted to start taxing internet sales. It's fought by most big companies, claiming that it would be too hard to implement (I thought that's what computers could do real easy ; )

The "brick and mortar" stores are yelling that it's too hard to compete with the net because they have to charge tax, and the net companies counter that they have to add shipping and handling. In most cases (for me) it evens out, but it's easier and faster (for me) to order on line.

If I buy something from an out of state company, no sales tax is applied, but if I buy from a New York dealer (where I live), the tax is added (8.25% currently). I *think* that companies have to charge sales tax to residents in any state that they have a significant headquarters, but I'm not sure how that works (sometimes you see a line like "if you live in NY, AL, whatever, add sales tax).

Every few years here in NYC a scam makes the papers - the rich people buy stuff from the expensive stores, and have it shipped to an address out of state - they don't pay the tax which would really add up on big sales. The tax people caught a few of the stores and the people walking out with their purchases and keeping the stuff in their Park Avenue apartments. The stores were (if at all) shipping empty boxes. Usually works that way, the people with the most money pay the least taxes. I doubt that will ever change.

jin choung
09-04-2004, 01:29 AM
this is why i am so amused when corporations and their lackeys and lobbies seek to educate kids on the morality of piracy and music swapping and such.

!!!
:D
!!!

their education in such matters end up being ludicrously one-sided propaganda without a hint of the complexity and hypocrisy regarding 'corporate morality'.

especially since almost by law, corporations are immoral (at best, AMORAL) 'people' driven completely by a machiavellian mandate to make money at all costs.

i'll bet ya they don't include little ditty's about corporate cheating/scandal in general and price fixing (riaa) in their 'education'.

very much reads like the rich and powerful using 'ethics' and 'morals' to keep the masses/cows in check eh?

funny fun world.

if i were able to talk to the children, i'd probably say something like, "trust no one", "everyone's a g.d. crook", "really think about the homily, 'life is not fair'", "watch your backs".

jin

jin choung
09-04-2004, 01:35 AM
haha...

just realized how tangential my own post is...

just in reading the actual content, the internal dialog in my head started going such that my post seemed entirely relevant.

if anyone objects, i'll take it down.

jin

Hervé
09-04-2004, 01:43 AM
Well, I Think American people are pretty lucky when it comes to taxes and stuff.... we pay 15% here in Lux., so yes this is very expensive...

Thomas said... "So what do we Eropeans do?", well not much Thomas, and that's the problem, all of these apps are from US or Canada....

In Europe, there are no Bill gates, no M. Deuce, no Alias, No XSI, No Mister NiceGuy, so we pay all that.... importing teknology has a cost... :D ;)

... and the small 50 Euros difference is for paying people of NT in Europe, Like BeeVee and his friends... that's normal.... hello Beevee...

Man if I buy Kingston Ram, it'll cost me twice the price in Europe if not more.... why ? Hey Old Europe, it is time to wake up...

The sleeper must awaken ! :D
Le Dormeur doit se réveiller...
Der Schläfer muss sich wecken...

So instead of crying, let's make more Money...! (I know, I know, just joking...)
:D

Hervé
09-04-2004, 01:46 AM
Jin you seam to be very disapointed about Life.... Com'on it not so horrible... well It is you're right , but If I think all the time , I'll go nuts... :D

jin choung
09-04-2004, 02:22 AM
hiya herve,

actually - quite surprisingly - i'm generally a pretty happy guy... and if not happy, then certainly easygoing.

people who've met me in person but have known me for a while from message boards are frequently pretty shocked that i'm not as raving and apparently insane as i seem to be in print. :)

yah, i don't personally have much to gripe about. i drive a sweetass hyundai that makes the chicks go nuts! oh yeah.... you know....

there is definitely a cognitive disconnect from my life and my THINKINGS about life/morality/politics/money etc. so contrary to my rants, i actually don't live in the projects shaking my fist at 'the man'.

but by estimation, the fact that my thoughts aren't a direct reflection of my situation makes them 1.75X more compelling.

jin

Hervé
09-04-2004, 02:57 AM
I know you're a happy guy Jin, I was just teasing you a bit... I even wonder if a 3D person could be unhappy... besides for some small technical reasons, ...we're so close from God, .... you see, when I create anything in LW, I feel like an angel.... also when I sleep (My Mom POV he he)...

Remember Sal. Dali said we all have 27 wrinkles that form our anus, so like LW we are made of mathematical formulas, (some of us are full of bugs), everything..., all my life is a gigantic upgrade... again like LW...

I did not know you were also an esygoing type of person, and with that now in mind, I'd like to meet you one day....

Have a nice week-end... ;) :cool:

jin choung
09-04-2004, 03:14 AM
howdy herve,

oh yeah, i know you were kiddin'.

27 wrinkles eh? that's not a lot of subdivisions... it's amazing that it can deform as well as it must be able to.

hmmm... don't 27 wrinkles make up our lips too? !!!

yah, hope i get to meet you and see luxembourg sometime as well... smallest country next to vatican right? other than that, the only thing i know about the country is that an early text/graphics adventure game called 'deja vu' involved getting to luxembourg as a goal.

hope the tax money gets spent to keep the citizens happy.

jin

Hervé
09-04-2004, 03:30 AM
He he , Luxembourg has 3 borders with Germany, Belgium and France... nowhere near Italy.... but small... 400,000 People... it comes just after Kuweit in terms of Income/people/state... so we're doing OK I guess... not a paradise though, lotsa rain, mainly bank business, but the country want to go to cinema directions and internet dev... so the number of studios is growing rapidly... we got lots of US prods here, including big US stars like Nicolas Cage, De Niro....

why do they come here...? No hassle for authorizations ...AND.. they dont pay any taxes on all the money they spend in the production inside the state, including salary....

so I guess our furture looks pretty bright... where are my sunglasses... :cool:

avarage guy here drives a BMW at the min., but as you know I am doing LW, so no gain for me yet (but there's hope), so I drive my wife's car... or I walk...

:D

So I am for sure the poorest guy here... hey I am famous for that at least ! :D ;)

jin choung
09-04-2004, 03:46 AM
oh,

i meant next in size... not location. yah, i figured it wasn't near italy! :)

sounds cool though. i don't know why... maybe happy memories from childhood but i love rain.

jin

Hervé
09-04-2004, 03:54 AM
Welcome to Luxembourg Jin ! ;)

starbase1
09-04-2004, 04:50 AM
OK, looks like I was wrong about it being a big increase. (Though the last price included a manual I note).

Whatever the cause for the difference between UK and US prices though, there is a simple solution available to Newtek.

Permit UK users to order from US stores - even after extra shipping, I'd be quids in. I have NEVER used a UK shop for any kind of supoort - you aways go to the software authors, right? So the current system is just a way for UK shops to overcharge...

Are there any drawbacks at all to this approach?
I can't see them!

:D

jasonazure
09-04-2004, 07:35 AM
I think Newtek should have included a printed manual in the upgrade price ! They have before, and I hate reading off the screen. My eyes get enough screen time as it is !

The Newtek upgrade looks especially bad when I just received my $495 (£300) copy of Softimage XSI/4 Foundation which includes 5 training DVD's, a 'Principles' DVD and a 565 page manual !

If I get on well with Softimage, I know which piece of Software I won't be upgrading next time ! :mad:

mattclary
09-04-2004, 10:42 AM
Well, since we get something in return, I think it is perfectly reasonable. Not that I agree with how every single Euro is spent, but the general idea is perfectly o.k. After all, I profit from it as well (Education, security, infrastructure, whatever).
But then again, we have a democracy here, and I have a bit of trust in my government ;) (Oops, starting a political discussion again... scnr :p )


Yeah, in theory I'm ok with it, I just feel a HUGE percentage of all the different taxes I pay goes to crap that is buying off some special interest group. Be it $500 hammers back in the '80s or paying women to have 8 children. I know specifically of two different women who got pregnant out of wedlock and chose to not get married so the government would pick up the tab. Our medical system is not as socialized as Europe, but don't ever make the mistake of thinking anyone in the US can't get the help they need.

We're just discussing, may even disagree on things, but no sweat. ;)

Lightwolf
09-04-2004, 10:54 AM
Yeah, in theory I'm ok with it, I just feel a HUGE percentage of all the different taxes I pay goes to crap that is buying off some special interest group.
Well, I guess those special interest groups get to vote too ;)
It is just a bit worrying if SIGs weld political power cirumventing the voter, but this is a problem any democratic system has to fight with in one way or another (or arrange itself with, whatever...).


We're just discussing, may even disagree on things, but no sweat. ;)
I have no problem with that, we're just seriously OT again, that's all. I don't want to be impolite... :)

Cheers,
Mike

KeithJ
09-06-2004, 12:27 PM
Hi Starbase1,
I know that if you sign up to one of 'Splinegods courses you can get a student license for only $395.

Maybe they do a similar deal on upgrades... I dont know

That is if you dont use Lightwave commercially?

hope this helps
:)
Keith

Doran
09-06-2004, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I too saved a bunch of money over the last few years by not paying taxes on my internet purchases. :(

Current US law states that if the article is otherwise unavailable in your state and you purchase it over the internet from another state you are not reponsible for the taxes in either state. This is the same set up as mail order from out of state. There is a movement by greedy government leaders to change this. Almost all state governors are in favor of a tax change so every purchase is always taxed.

Currently, in the example sited in the post above, a person purchasing a video camera should have to pay sales tax for his home state as there are outlets in his state that sell the item he purchased.

On the other hand, if I buy a gizmo not available in any store from out of state neither states sales tax apply to my purchase.

It's confusing but that doesn't mean I want it to change for the worse.

Doran
09-06-2004, 01:57 PM
High taxes keep a country in an economic slump, that's no secret.



So instead of crying, let's make more Money...! (I know, I know, just joking...)
:D

No joke, making money is the best revenge. :O)

Doran
09-06-2004, 02:04 PM
especially since almost by law, corporations are immoral (at best, AMORAL) 'people' driven completely by a machiavellian mandate to make money at all costs.


I know this can happen but the attitude is a little too communistic for my taste. Business' are there to make money, in the process they employee people; this is a good thing. if they don't make enough money they fail. If they break the law they fail. That's the whole of it.

Doran
09-06-2004, 02:13 PM
The "brick and mortar" stores are yelling that it's too hard to compete with the net because they have to charge tax, and the net companies counter that they have to add shipping and handling.

Brick and mortar store used to complain about the mail order business' too.
this is just their most recent round of complaining.

Doran
09-06-2004, 02:17 PM
Permit UK users to order from US stores - even after extra shipping, I'd be quids in.

Are there any drawbacks at all to this approach?
I can't see them! :D

Local vendors that support Newtek would suffer. That could be a significant drawback.

Doran
09-06-2004, 02:46 PM
I think Newtek should have included a printed manual in the upgrade price ! They have before, and I hate reading off the screen. My eyes get enough screen time as it is !:mad:

They did.. effectively the upgrade price has gone up.. but Newtek has given you the option to upgrade for a lower (old price) and receive electronic documentation.

I agree with the screen time comment though.. my eyes are always blery these days.

jin choung
09-06-2004, 05:32 PM
trickle down economics could work. as odious as the notion is, it can indeed work.

but it's UNLIKELY to work today.

corporations have much less incentive these days to take the tax cut savings and spend the savings locally. they can invest abroad and still make as much money (if not more) - but then the trickle down does not trickle down anymore.

capitalism does in fact work but that's really not saying much and it is certainly not without problems. many times, capitalism and democracy are equated with one another but is it not clear in this day and age that capitalism can be one of democracy's most insidious foes?

the influence of power and money on our political system endangers the original ideal and threatens to subvert it into a oligarchy draped in the flag.

in what way is it fair that the moneyed get more influence and access and a louder voice in a democracy than an individual?

unfortunately, unlike separation of church and state, it would probably be nigh impossible to separate money and state.

money always finds a way.

and that's as much of a problem as it is a virtue.

jin

pauland
09-06-2004, 05:44 PM
OK, looks like I was wrong about it being a big increase. (Though the last price included a manual I note).

Whatever the cause for the difference between UK and US prices though, there is a simple solution available to Newtek.
Only if they want to give up on non-US markets.



Permit UK users to order from US stores - even after extra shipping, I'd be quids in. I have NEVER used a UK shop for any kind of supoort - you aways go to the software authors, right? So the current system is just a way for UK shops to overcharge...
I would say that UK shops don't overcharge and I suspect that most UK businesses have far higher overheads than their US counterparts.

Mostly for LW, the forums seem to answer most support needs, but as a backup there are local UK dealers and Newtek Europe. Many people complain that Newtek doesn't push LW enough in Europe, yet many people won't buy product if there isn't a local dealer, or local promotion.



Are there any drawbacks at all to this approach?
I can't see them!

They're not hard to see. You'd be undermining local dealers and product promotion and if that's not enough to bother you, you'll still have to pay VAT when the package is imported and often a 'collection' fee, plus most likely courier charges from the US.

If your package is damaged or your dongle breaks, you'll be happy to phone the US to sort it out and wait for a replacement?

Local dealers are important for local markets. Whether a dealer will sell Newtek Products depends on their profit margins and the Margins of products that compete with Newtek.

Personally, I think that without local dealers, Newteks products would dissappear outside the US, except for a very small niche.

Paul

kmscottmoore
09-06-2004, 06:08 PM
Starbase,

I came to this thread late, and I tried to read it all, but my eyes started to glaze over. I apologize if I repeat anything that has already been covered.

I really don't think that NewTek is trying to screw non-U.S. users of its software. Price differences are more likely the result of politics than anything else.

Software, like nearly all finished products, when traded across international borders, is subject to various import/export taxes (tariffs.) U.S. produced software is more expensive in nearly every other country that it is sold. (Even after adjusting for exchange rates.)

The inflated prices that you pay in the UK for U.S. software are due to the trade practices between our two nations, and not any ill will on the part of NewTek. (You should see what we pay for a pint of Bass over here!)

Similarly, prices in Australia for U.S. software are much higher than what we pay here. But, Australian products usually cost U.S. consumers three times what the Aussies pay. (Fosters doesn't count, because the sneaks actually brew it in Canada and sneak it in that way. Sort of the same way that all of the Japanese car companies have built plants in the U.S.)

Likewise, any differences in prices in Pounds (sorry, I can't find that sqiggle symbol) and Euros would be due to the UK not being a part of the EEU.

pauland
09-07-2004, 01:18 AM
Likewise, any differences in prices in Pounds (sorry, I can't find that sqiggle symbol) and Euros would be due to the UK not being a part of the EEU.

Err.. but we are part of the EEU...

I happen to think that the price differences are comparitively small and a small price to pay for having a local dealer.

Paul

Qexit
09-07-2004, 03:10 AM
The inflated prices that you pay in the UK for U.S. software are due to the trade practices between our two nations,
.......

Not a lot to do with the nations trade practices in the UK. There are no tariffs on software imported into the UK. The biggest factor has always been the difference between the actual exchange rates and the 'Retail Exchange Rate' between the Pound and the Dollar. Until relatively recently, the Retail rate had always been set at 1 Dollar = 1 Pound. This was simple for retailers and allowed them to make the most profit. Most consumers were not even aware of this as it was difficult to know what was being charged for the same products in the US. This had nothing to do with Government tariffs or policies, just a question of greed on the part of retailers. With the increased use of the Internet people became increasingly aware of the huge discrepancy in prices and started to buy things direct from the States as even after shipping costs (and duty where applicable), there were huge savings to be made.

About 5 years ago, following a big outcry about the cost of the newly released Video Toaster NT in the UK, Newtek did do something about this and prices in the UK pretty much matched those in the States. Newtek also became much stricter about enforcing its rules that prevent retailers in one country/territory from shipping to a buyer in another country/territory. Quite a few UK LW users had been buying LW licenses and upgrades from the US to save money uptil then.

With the opening of Newtek Europe, pricing in the UK actually improved as they also adopted a simple exchange rate of 1 Euro = 1 Dollar for their pricing. As the Pound to Euro exchange was rather good, this meant for a while that it was cheaper to buy LW in the UK than in the US. Pricing has since been adjusted so that the UK price is now a fixed Pound figure, which is normally more expensive than the current exchange rate would make it, rather than a Euro price with the final cost determined by the exchagne rate. This is better for the retailers as it allows them to know what their income is at all times rather than have it changing all the time due to fluctuating exchange rates. The UK recommended retail prices are set by Newtek Europe and their Distributors...so Newtek are in control of how much is charged for their product in the UK.

I buy all my Newtek products through Onevideo.net and they usually sell for below Newtek's recommended price. This is currently higher still than it would cost to buy at the Euro price displayed on the Newtek Europe site even allowing for shipping costs.


Likewise, any differences in prices in Pounds (sorry, I can't find that sqiggle symbol) and Euros would be due to the UK not being a part of the EEU.

The UK is part of the EU, we just aren't signed up to the Euro. We were promised a referendum on that matter way back in 1997...but until the present government are confident of getting at least a 51% 'YES' vote we wont actually have one. ...but this really isn't the right forum for a discussion on that subject :p

starbase1
09-07-2004, 03:39 AM
Local vendors that support Newtek would suffer. That could be a significant drawback.

Well, what exactly do the local (UK) vendors provide Newtek, that they wouldn't get from the same sale through a different shop?

I don't use the shop for support, I use Newtek. Does ANYONE use the shop???

Nick

starbase1
09-07-2004, 03:46 AM
I don't blame Newtek at all - I'm blaming the UK retaillers. I have nothing but praise for my experiences with Newtek US.

But Newtek europe are another matter - just take a look at the web site! Try and find a UK dealer through it! The site is just plain broken!

I wish that the UK was better, but for many years, (pre internet even), I have found I get better service from US software companies, including faster delivery more often than not! Anyone seen a US software advert with 'allow 28 days for delivery' on it?!

There are a few exceptions, and they tend to be one man outfits - IFW textures deliver superb support.

Dongle fixing is a good one - I have not run into that one, maybe in that case local would be better.

Nick

BeeVee
09-07-2004, 04:34 AM
What's the problem you are having? Clicking on the dealer locator works fine for me. Have you got the latest Flash player? Perhaps you need to clear your cache and start again?

B

PS. Please excuse the size of the image. Also, try the following link: http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/purchase/resellers.html

Lightwolf
09-07-2004, 04:47 AM
Software, like nearly all finished products, when traded across international borders, is subject to various import/export taxes (tariffs.) U.S. produced software is more expensive in nearly every other country that it is sold. (Even after adjusting for exchange rates.)
Not really, there are companies out there that actually offer you the same package for the same base price in nearly every country, taking into account decent exchange rates. XSI (sorry...) somes to mind here, the $ 500 bundle costs you 410 € (again, taxes apply in both cases).

Cheers,
Mike

Qexit
09-07-2004, 12:19 PM
Well, what exactly do the local (UK) vendors provide Newtek, that they wouldn't get from the same sale through a different shop?
Believe it or not, some people prefer and in some cases will only buy from 'local' vendors. Also, even in this day and age, not everyone has access to the Internet so locating overseas sellers is not always an option. So basically, Newtek gets sales that would not even exist if there were no 'local' vendors.

I don't use the shop for support, I use Newtek. Does ANYONE use the shop???

Nick
I actually do you use my vendor for support in some areas. While I don't ask them questions about how to use Lightwave or my VT3..I do get them to pursue queries about obtaining upgrades, release dates and other information that would otherwise involve me making International phone calls to Newtek Europe AND other companies whose products I buy through them. I'm on friendly, first name terms with the Onevideo support people. Even though I don't need to use their services very often, it's nice to know they will be there when I do.

phil lawson
12-20-2004, 02:58 PM
I used www.onevideo.net to get mine...as good as price as any and few helpful staff...Richard posted all news leading up to [8]'s final release and the rest of the guys chatted on the forums as well.

:)

bobakabob
12-20-2004, 04:28 PM
As a long term UK Lightwave user, I reluctantly agree with Nick. Despite my allegiance to Newtek's mighty 3D software, the pricing policy doesn't seem fair. £400 + £65 manual is a significant amount of money for an upgrade - relative to US prices. My previous upgrade cost nearer £300.

Newtek, please reply: Why can't UK or international users purchase directly from your US website?

You're doing a great job, but I really hope you take these views on board in your pricing strategy. I love Lightwave and really want to continue subscribing. However, it's a tough market out there and the competitors are doing their best to lure UK Lightwave users onto other applications.

All the best,

Bob

ollli3d3
01-05-2005, 08:35 AM
hi,

you're talking just Lightwave, how about VT4, there, the price is not just
1:1, but actually more than 60 percent higher in europe. Why is that???
Makes me angry just thinking about it. This is so typical european business
inability, just take it and run, appears to be the order of the day.

I 've been using LW since v3, and am a happy and creative user, now that
I've gone pro with video and tv productions, I need to expand to the VT.

I want to make this short, I am looking for a good dealer with the possibility
of a little Q&A with the purchase, but I won't pay US$8000 just for having to
purchase the product in Europe!!! I will however buy it at the US$current price
(as SR at Newtek's site and many other reseller's).

Dodgy
01-05-2005, 09:21 AM
Okay, let's look at the figures. I assume the figrues on the NT website are before sales tax since that varies from state to state? Or does this include tax?
($1.85=£1)

In the US (no assumed tax) Upgrade: $495=£267
In the UK (no tax), onevideo.net Upgrade =£325

This is 1.21 times the US price. If you include VAT17.5%, this becomes £382, almost half again the US price if that figure includes tax.

Full Price:
US(no assumed tax)=$1595=£862
UK(no tax)=£775

Absolute bargain unless VAT adds it up to £910 which is more than the US price if this includes the sales tax....

But note that Onevideo aren't charging the RRP of £995. This means they're basically removing the VAT from the price... Very nice of them...

VT4 Live
US$6,495=£3511
UK £3,720.00

A more moderate choice, VAT makes the UK price up to £4,371.00, how would that compare to US with sales tax?
Basically this means it's a good time to buy extra seats, but not as good to upgrade...

Qexit
01-05-2005, 09:32 AM
Newtek Europe seem to have adopted a very simple, but wildly inaccurate, exchange rate when setting their Lightwave and VT prices, i.e. 1 Euro = 1 US$. Hence you get

VT4 software upgrade (inc LW8) = US$995 = 995 Euros

I can understand why they have done this (it would be impossible for Newtek Europe to keep changing the price to match the fluctuating exchange rates), but when the actual exchange rate is more like 1 Euro = 1.3X US$ it does result in a gaping difference in prices on opposite sides of the Atlantic. Some attempt should be made to address the problem otherwise US dealers may start coming under increasing pressure from users to sell their products abroad even though that would go against Newtek rules.

This whole discussion reoccurs at fairly regular intervals. The last time I got involved was way back when the first PC Video Toaster was released and there was a £1 = US$1 exchange rate being applied. Newtek did take steps at the time to address the problem and the prices did even out. The down side was that they enforced their 'no export' terms to ensure that European resellers had a captive market for the improved pricing. The trans-atlantic gap has widened again...so maybe it's time for another review of the situation ?

Qexit
01-05-2005, 09:49 AM
Hi Dodgy,

You need to take a look at US reseller prices when comparing prices. I just dropped in on the Safe Harbor site as I have bought from them in the past :

http://www.sharbor.com/vendors/NTK.html

The price from there of a single LW8 seat is $1199 - $1559 depending on which bundle you go for. The CD version of the Image Modeler deal at onevideo.net that you used comes in at just $1299 which is £702 at your exchange rate.

The current high cost of shipping from the States could well wipe out any major savings, but the price difference is there. As I suggested before, the 1 Euro = 1 Dollar RRP system is the big problem here. Resellers can cut their margins to give us better deals to come close to US prices but that shouldn't really be necessary :)

Dodgy
01-05-2005, 12:11 PM
That does make a difference....

ollli3d3
01-05-2005, 12:13 PM
thanks Dodgy & Kevin,
I am checking with onevideo and am roaming in on 'em. Hope to get some advise and support with that (like in the US). However, I hope to be able to find some peace soon, as this has been a headache with the continuous monopolization attempts and price inflations in europe.

pauland
01-05-2005, 01:58 PM
Something consider. The US and UK/Europe have different cost bases in terms of overheads with staff costs and various business expenses. I guess that while it's easy to complain when an obvious cost seems more expensive, animators won't complain if they can get a higher price for their work in the local market...

Ultimately I think it's better to have a good local supplier, whatever the product and worth paying a little more to safeguard that.

Paul

FHL
01-07-2005, 03:13 AM
Hi all,

I understand your feelings and reaction. Before being the manager of NewTek Europe I was a passionate user as you all are and the price difference between the USA and Europe used to frustrate me a lot.

NewTek Europe has always striven to offer the best price ratio with NewTek US.
In the beginning we based this on a ratio of 1:1 for a conversion rate between Euro and Dollar that meant that European users were as much as 18% better off than artists wanting to buy LightWave in the States.

Things have changed since then so that the US seems cheaper - that's the way the world economy works.

We always try to give the best offers available. as an example Newtek Europe was offering LightWave at a VAT-inclusive price at the end of 2004 (a saving of between 15%-25% depending on what country you live in), and starting from next Monday we are dropping the price of a full seat of LightWave to 1,295€ ( approx. £900) including the printed manual and, subject to stock, Image Modeler 4.0 (with a value of 1,200€ on its own!).

Upgrades are also a subject of this thread, I have good news on this front too. The price of an electronic upgrade (with PDF and HTML documentation) will drop next week to just 295€ (£200).

All prices indicated in this message are exclusive of VAT in your particular country - something we have no control over :)

Franck Lafage
Managing Director
NewTek Europe

Qexit
01-07-2005, 03:31 AM
Hi Franck,

Thank-you for the good news on the price changes for Lightwave in Europe. Very welcome. Will there be similar changes for the VT range of products and upgrades ? Another user on this list has asked about this...and as a VT3 user I would be interested in hearing too :) Although I suppose all will be revealed on Monday anyway :p

Cheers

Hervé
01-07-2005, 03:48 AM
look at adobe products... almost double the price.... in europe... :D

bobakabob
01-07-2005, 11:13 AM
Franck,

Many thanks for your considered response - this is fantastic news.

Throughout the 90s, Newtek had a deserved reputation for bringing high quality professional 3D graphics software to an affordable level. As a result of your progressive egalitarian strategy, 'elitist' 3D programs, formerly well out of the range of small studios, are now waging a ruthless price war.

You really deserve support - consider me subscribed!

Bob :)

Dodgy
01-07-2005, 01:20 PM
That is great news, that is something to keep in mind, the great offers NT give with their software. I don't think some other companies would give those great offers!

starbase1
01-08-2005, 02:05 AM
Yes, many thanks for the explanation, it makes a lot more sense now I realise the price was tied to the euro.

It is also REALLY good and very unusual that Newtek have been following the thread, and taken action! The new upgrade price is fair, and I think I will be changing my decision, and looking to upgrade LW.

Unfortunately just after Christmas is a bad time, so I may have to wait a bit!
:(

But its really good to hear this, thanks again.

Nick
:D

BeeVee
01-08-2005, 07:07 AM
I promise you Nick, it's not at all unusual - for a start you're getting a reply on a Saturday! :)

B
PS. We monitor prices internally, so please don't think of our price move as something to appease people, but rather that the decision to lower our prices coincided with the existence of this thread...

PPS. There's more to come... :)

starbase1
01-09-2005, 04:14 AM
:D :D :D :D :D

I meant unusual in a wider context, not unusual for Newtek!

Dooby
01-11-2005, 06:50 AM
http://www.oneanimation.net/products.asp?manufacturer=25

Look what we have here!!!

:eek: :)

BeeVee
01-12-2005, 09:22 AM
Pricing is on our site too! :)

In English, in Euro: http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/price/price_e.html

In English, in Sterling: http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/price/price_ls.html

In French: http://www.newtek-europe.com/fr/price/price_e.html

B

fartofart
01-14-2005, 04:23 PM
look at adobe products... almost double the price.... in europe... :D

itz the translation make it the twice ..so buy it not translated