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View Full Version : Newtek has dropped the Ball



riki
08-31-2004, 06:43 PM
I get the feeling that 3d Studios in Sydney are finding it impossible to source local LW talent. "Completely underwhelmed!" is the response I'm hearing. In recent weeks I've spoken to two Sydney based studios that are considerring jumping ship becuase they simply can't put bums on seats.

Where's the new generation of Wavers coming out of Art Colleges and Unis? As far as I can tell they all learning Maya and other 3d APPS.

hunter
08-31-2004, 07:54 PM
I hear ya'. Wish I could live in Sydney. Not sure the wife would go for it though. Seems schools want to teach what's popular. ILM requires experience with Maya or XSI. What's up wit dat? :eek:

UnCommonGrafx
08-31-2004, 08:07 PM
Hell, I'll move!

riki
08-31-2004, 09:33 PM
It never use to be the case, when I was art Art College (COFA UNSW) http://www.cofa.unsw.edu.au that was the only 3d APP they taught, we had about 30 LW seats in one of the computer Labs. After I left they started the 'Digital Media degree', which I understand is now all maya based.

So we loose the education base, then four years later, the few LW studios we have are starting to feel the pinch. Once they're gone, there won't be much left.

I think melbourne is the last LW stronghold in AU.

Hervé
08-31-2004, 11:25 PM
well.....life goes on Riki..... same here, I was visiting to a studio place where they shoot movies here in Luxembourg, and when I talked about LW, the guy said they only use XSI, and dont want to hear or mix with anything else.... anymore !! Someone else told me they had a really bad experience with 3DS, so LW is not the cause, but you're right, less and less LW, more & more Maya and Now XSI with the new price...

BTW, the realviz deal was .... well... no big deal, coz you could have Stitcher 3.5 for about $10 lately, I have just read that on Realviz forum.... I wonder if Realviz will even abandon Stitcher as for now they are working on a special machine with Kaidan...

After thinking for a few nights.... I am sticking with LW, I dont need outside employment, that's the main cause, I am confortable with LW now, and I am scared that after a super canon priced XSI, the next upgrade will just go back to the usual price range $$$, meaning impossible to upgrade !!!

Like, yeah buy XSI now at $500.... next upgrade.... yeah $2000.... ouch !

it would be too good to be true, they just wanted more seats, but I suspect lots of those new seats will fly away as soon as the next upgrade comes to town.... hummm, like selling a Ferrari for $500, but each gallon of Gazoline for $10,000....

Dont worry Riki, we'll see these people coming back to LW, once they are facing such case....AND off course when NT 'll open The Dammmmnnnn SDK to permit the Gentle M. Steve Worley to go furtehr with F_Prime ! :D

BTW, what's up with that, I thought they were going now hand in hand... ?

In other words, there is Hope !

Cheers Riki....
@++

Panikos
09-01-2004, 12:13 AM
Bonjour mon ami Herve, hi all friends.

This is an endless battle with non-stop ups & downs.
I prefer to spend my time working, than thinking of the future.

Hope is a waking dream - Aristotelis :p

christian
09-01-2004, 12:55 AM
Hi,

one problem for the educational institutes might be that the price for an academic license of Lightwave is higher than for an academic license of Maya Unlimited.

Christian

Hervé
09-01-2004, 01:42 AM
Hello mon Ami Panikos,

I know all these are just speculations, and sometimes I just feel like my wife reading gossip magazines...

Now you're right, let's go back o work... ! he he... :D ;)

chromatic
09-01-2004, 02:22 AM
Recently I had the opportunity to use Maya 6.0 while working on a project. Because I'm so used to LightWave (I'm using it as of version 4.0) I hated it using Maya, but that's because I wasn't used to it. It's capabilities are tremendous but I favor LightWave tenfold. My personal experience is that most LW users are more down to earth thern Maya users :)

LightWave [8] Rocks. I'll never stop using LightWave!!!!

ChroMatiC

Librarian
09-01-2004, 02:53 AM
well.....life goes on Riki..... same here, I was visiting to a studio place where they shoot movies here in Luxembourg, and when I talked about LW, the guy said they only use XSI, and dont want to hear or mix with anything else.... anymore !! Someone else told me they had a really bad experience with 3DS, so LW is not the cause, but you're right, less and less LW, more & more Maya and Now XSI with the new price...

BTW, the realviz deal was .... well... no big deal, coz you could have Stitcher 3.5 for about $10 lately, I have just read that on Realviz forum.... I wonder if Realviz will even abandon Stitcher as for now they are working on a special machine with Kaidan...

After thinking for a few nights.... I am sticking with LW, I dont need outside employment, that's the main cause, I am confortable with LW now, and I am scared that after a super canon priced XSI, the next upgrade will just go back to the usual price range $$$, meaning impossible to upgrade !!!

Like, yeah buy XSI now at $500.... next upgrade.... yeah $2000.... ouch !

it would be too good to be true, they just wanted more seats, but I suspect lots of those new seats will fly away as soon as the next upgrade comes to town.... hummm, like selling a Ferrari for $500, but each gallon of Gazoline for $10,000....

Dont worry Riki, we'll see these people coming back to LW, once they are facing such case....AND off course when NT 'll open The Dammmmnnnn SDK to permit the Gentle M. Steve Worley to go furtehr with F_Prime ! :D

BTW, what's up with that, I thought they were going now hand in hand... ?

In other words, there is Hope !

Cheers Riki....
@++
You´re totally misinformed!
Please do more research before posting such nonsense.
The new price structure of XSI is not a limited special, its their new and permanent price structure.
Limited is just the DVD bundle that ships with it.
Read the FAQ (http://forum.softimage.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2148)

And why not using more than one application in conjunction?
The right tool for the job.
They play very well together.
It´s a good time to for 3D folks.

Hervé
09-01-2004, 03:16 AM
well as I said these are speculations, but reading the FAQ, they say nothing about the price of the next upgrade, they just saying XSI foundation is upgradable with a fee, but nowhere how much ? Plus what they say today might be in the complete oppisite of what they'll say tomorrow... who knows..?

not me, not you .... just pure gossip... :D

BTW, no big deal... :rolleyes:

BeeVee
09-01-2004, 06:20 AM
tum ti tum

B

Hervé
09-01-2004, 06:41 AM
I follow U 100 % Beevee... :D ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
09-01-2004, 07:09 AM
What sort of artists are they looking for? Sydney sounds fun!

riki
09-01-2004, 08:54 AM
They're looking for animators. But they want people to work in house not remotely.

Hervé
09-01-2004, 08:57 AM
Chris is already on its way to Sydney.... :D ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
09-01-2004, 09:07 AM
Hell yeah Herve! After seeing all those athletic Australian babes compete in Greece. Wow. I got my cardiovascular workout just watching :).



Chris is already on its way to Sydney.... :D ;)

Hervé
09-01-2004, 09:13 AM
Australian babes rock... ! he he... :D

Rahnem
09-01-2004, 09:15 AM
Australia is the best country in the world, but I'm sure everybody says that about their own country.

Randog
09-01-2004, 09:32 AM
I hear ya'. Wish I could live in Sydney. Not sure the wife would go for it though. Seems schools want to teach what's popular. ILM requires experience with Maya or XSI. What's up wit dat? :eek:

The pipeline ithin ILM is centered around both applications. I am sure they have spent a lot of resources in devloping the pipline. For that reason they want to have artists that know these packages.

Why did they choose these instead of Lightwave? WHile I cannot answer directly for them since I have never worked there my guess would be because both of these packages are more robust when directly compared to Lightwave. Particularly when you look at character animation and dynamics.

Randog
09-01-2004, 09:33 AM
I get the feeling that 3d Studios in Sydney are finding it impossible to source local LW talent. "Completely underwhelmed!" is the response I'm hearing. In recent weeks I've spoken to two Sydney based studios that are considerring jumping ship becuase they simply can't put bums on seats.

Where's the new generation of Wavers coming out of Art Colleges and Unis? As far as I can tell they all learning Maya and other 3d APPS.

Because the talen pool for Lightwave artists is smaller than compnies had expected is not a fault of NewTek.

Mikeface
09-01-2004, 11:42 AM
I used to live in Sydney and would love to find an excuse to move back there...

Riki - would you mind passing on the names of one or more of the companies you are referring to? :)

Thanks,
Mike

riki
09-01-2004, 09:45 PM
Because the talen pool for Lightwave artists is smaller than compnies had expected is not a fault of NewTek.

It's funny when I complained about paying hundreds of dollars extra for my LW 8 upgrade, and complained about not being able to purchase online directly from the Newtek site, everyone jumped on me and told me that I was being short-sighted for not supporting the LW community in Australia, for not supporting New Magic and helping to develop a local LW community and fund the promotion LW in AU. Yet seriously what effective marketing is there? Most of the reseller sites look like home-made jobs with LW 7 promos hidden away on a back pages. That might be an exaggeration in some cases but it's not far from the truth.

The talent pool is shrinking in Sydney, and each year we see a fresh new batch of graduates tooled up with Maya skills, while LW slips progressively backwards and studios consider the switch to other 3d APPS. If that's not a concern to Newtek then I don't know what is.

It's not really an issue of laying blame and I don't want to split hairs about this. Becuase I think my original message was important and needs to be brought to Newteks attention, so that they can consider any future distribution and market policies which could improve the situation. If it's becoming a problem here then it quite possbly also applys to other regions.

Yeah somethings are obviously beyond Newtek's control, but I think marketing and distribution need to be improved. Things like having a fair price for everyone, making Lightwave easier to buy, getting the Discovery version out there, getting it into the schools, having more thanone distributor in the country, nothing wrong with competition.

riki
09-01-2004, 09:52 PM
Riki - would you mind passing on the names of one or more of the companies you are referring to? :)

Hi Mike contact Jason at bodyonline.com.au also another Jason at Dynamite Games, both looking for LW animators.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=165792

wacom
09-02-2004, 12:07 AM
You´re totally misinformed!
Please do more research before posting such nonsense.
The new price structure of XSI is not a limited special, its their new and permanent price structure.
Limited is just the DVD bundle that ships with it.
Read the FAQ (http://forum.softimage.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2148)

And why not using more than one application in conjunction?
The right tool for the job.
They play very well together.
It´s a good time to for 3D folks.

Don't forget to leave out the fact that to upgrade, even to a .5 version, you'll have to pay out another $500. I'm not saying it's not a good deal...just letting people know...

CB_3D
09-02-2004, 01:01 AM
http://www.rendernode.com/articles.php?articleId=192

It IS a little worrying,though, how much coverage there is for most apps...and too often none for LW.

Yog
09-02-2004, 01:33 AM
http://www.rendernode.com/articles.php?articleId=192

It IS a little worrying,though, how much coverage there is for most apps...and too often none for LW.

The difference is that those other apps released or anounced new versions at Siggraph. Newtek didn't even put out a press release. I suppose Rendernode could have screened the same LW8 footage they shot for last years Siggraph, but some might have questioned why.

Possibly the timing wasn't right for the anouncement of the 8.01 patch, but at the least they could have got some coverage by anouncing what new features are likely to be coming down the line.

It's THE biggest 3D trade show of the year, attended by thousands, followed on the internet by tens of thousands. It's inconcivable a company wouldn't make an anouncement about their flagship 3D product there.

Triple G
09-02-2004, 02:00 AM
It's inconcivable a company wouldn't make an anouncement about their flagship 3D product there.

I totally agree. They basically threw away their biggest PR/Marketing opportunity of the year, IMHO. The only press release they had during SIGGRAPH was to congratulate the winners of the VFX Emmys. Discreet had Max 7, Maxon had C4D 9, there was SoftImage's price drop, Alias acquiring Kaydara....and from Newtek....not much other than showing off the exact same product they showed at last year's SIGGRAPH. While I understand that the people at Newtek are hard at work coming to grips with the code and getting features ready for future versions, I have to say that letting the whole week go by with no announcements or press releases concerning your flagship 3D application was disheartening and disappointing to say the least.

Hervé
09-02-2004, 05:08 AM
I am happy using LW, and this is not going to change ( too old :D ), so in fact that's all what counts for me ,myself and I....

But I agree, their marketing is somehow pretty poor.... well, they had to re-start almost from scratch, considering the move a of all the coders.... IF I dont mistake alias is a much bigger Co., with shares and everything, so if they need more money.... they whistle...! I believe NT calls his banker.... not really the same thing....

Let's compare what's comparable... and for loyal users (a this point I consider myself as one) nothing compares to our trusty Lw.... :D :rolleyes:


and grass is always greener somewhere else...

Chuck
09-02-2004, 07:41 AM
As mentioned, we did in fact have a press release regarding the fact that for the 3rd year in a row 7 of the 10 nominees for visual effects Emmys were projects which relied on LightWave 3D.

I suspect most of you are upgraders, and since you received LW[8] well in advance of the official release of the product, you tend to lose sight of the fact that we released LightWave on June 30th - so in fact we had a major product release which was very well publicized prior to the show.

Last year we previewed a product in development; this year we demonstrated a product that we had just shipped. The times when we preview technologies work best for retaining the interest of current owners and are servicable to a degree for attracting new customers, though their major concern is actually what's shipping now; the times when we show shipping product are best for attracting new customers and for moving owners of previous versions to upgrade, but for some owners of the current version they are seeing what they have, and don't feel the excitement and interest that a potential new purchaser or potential upgrader would in looking at a demo of a product that is ready to go today.

jeffb
09-02-2004, 07:52 AM
IMHO, the problem is not really with marketing at SIGGRAPH, etc. Its in the way Newtek deals with (or should I say doesn't deal with) academic institutions.
When I recently taught at a community college we taught Lightwave. But Newtek made no concessions to bulk academic purchases, no concessions to the need to provide training materials and worst of all it took months of constant calls to get Newtek to respond to even simple communications; even to the purchase of Lightwave for the college classes.
So, a strong proponent of 3DMAX comes in to teach and Discreet (however you feel about them as a company) bends over backwards to provide all sorts of incentives. Also, I understand they respond to phone calls and emails.
Again, I move to a new city, teach some at a community college and the same scenario is taking shape, only involving Maya.
My point is, that its great to have your user base be so vocal and push the software (hoorray for us), but large companies like ILM want formally trained workers. And Newtek continues to drop the ball in its relations with academic institutions.
Sorry all for the long post, but this is a big problem and concerns the future of all of us using Lightwave.

Chuck
09-02-2004, 10:11 AM
Jeffrey, please let me know who you have tried to contact here and I'll see what I can do to improve any response problems. We do provide academic pricing and we do provide quantity discounts as part of our price structure for institutions. Please ocntact me privately and I can make sure to put you in touch with the proper party to address your concerns.

cgolchert
09-02-2004, 12:28 PM
Discreet had Max 7

Yeah but no matter what number they stick next to it, it will still be Max. :)

christian
09-03-2004, 02:13 AM
Hi Jeffb,

I can confirm everything you say. I´m teaching at an Universtity in Germany and Newtek is by far the least cooperative Company when it comes to support of academic institutes.

And Chuck I´ve contacted you too and never got a reply. I´ve had some sort of communication with Ben Vost from Newtek-Europe which was a nice conversation but was in the end pretty effortless.

Alias, Maxon, Discreet have a strong standing in the educational market here in germany because they offer their software at reasonable prices and they offer training material too.
Yes I´ve seen your newest offer with training material and a reasonable priced 5 seat Lab Pack and I appreciate it, but no one can tell me if its available in europe too. The dealers know nothing, the Newtek-Europe website doesn´t list it and so far no answer from them too.

Christian

Hervé
09-03-2004, 02:26 AM
Hello Christian, did you try calling NT Europe... ? I would, i am pretty sure they know.... ;)

Panikos
09-03-2004, 03:41 AM
Personally, I know a dealer that is heavily involved into piracy.
I am not responsible for choosing him.

christian
09-03-2004, 03:52 AM
Hi Herve,

I contacted them by mail. I didn´t came through by phone but maybe I try again.

Thanks,

Christian

BeeVee
09-03-2004, 04:04 AM
Hi Christian,

I did get your mail and I'm sorry for not having replied sooner. Fraulein Minkenberg has recently rejoined the company and I thought it would be better for her to reply, especially in deutsch since mine is so bad, but there have been teething problems with her machine.

B

christian
09-03-2004, 04:15 AM
Hi Ben,

nice to hear from you and even nicer that Fraulein? (I thought she gave birth to a baby? ;-) Minkenberg is back. Looking forward to hear from her.

Thanks,

Christian

BeeVee
09-03-2004, 04:47 AM
She did and you're right she is married as well so she should be Frau, but she looks so young and fresh-faced, you're lucky I didn't call her Mädchen Minkenberg! :)

B

christian
09-03-2004, 08:12 AM
seems to me you have a lot of fun in Pessac :)

christian

Hervé
09-03-2004, 08:23 AM
Pessac = Good Bordeaux Wine.... hummm me like.... :D

So Panikos, you're saying that you know a dealer that makes illegal copies of LW or what...? :D :confused: ;)

Chuck
09-03-2004, 08:53 AM
Hi Jeffb,

I can confirm everything you say. I´m teaching at an Universtity in Germany and Newtek is by far the least cooperative Company when it comes to support of academic institutes.

And Chuck I´ve contacted you too and never got a reply. I´ve had some sort of communication with Ben Vost from Newtek-Europe which was a nice conversation but was in the end pretty effortless.



I've reviewed my email box and do find that you used the forum to private message me, which generated an email. Unfortunately, my forum private messages from that date are no longer archived so I can't check to see if I replied via the forum - if I didn't, my apologies. Procedure with regard to messages from the European community is to redirect them to NewTek Europe staff for handling - so I have forwarded that email to Ben and I am sure he and Edith will be able to assist you with all necessary information.

Exper
09-03-2004, 09:03 AM
Last year we previewed a product in development; this year we demonstrated a product that we had just shipped.Just the same one indeed! ;)

Sorry... I don't want to be unfair nor rude... but the other ones (comptetitors) are running like hares! :(

wok
09-03-2004, 09:17 PM
Well i'd love to find a job using LW in OZ!!! sure i'm overseas right now and wont be home for a while but i counldnt find a job using LW for ages!!!! i still think there is kick *** LW talent in OZ!! heaps of it!!! I'm from melbourne and studied animation for 2 years at www.ideaonline.com.au. i guess if these places didnt want people with years of experience it wouldnt be a problem??? I founds heaps of my friends had to learn other apps cause the jobs didnt exist. I think if these studios actully turned up to exhibition/presentation nights and kept in touch with the schools, they would have no trouble at all sourcing talent!!!

Glad to see LW jobs around!!!!!!! Cant wait to get back!!!!!

riki
09-03-2004, 10:20 PM
I think if you've got a tight 3 month production schedule your not going to want to train a whole new team of un-industry-tested college graduates in a new APP, regardless of artistic skill.

There's a whole ecco system here which supports itself. Kids go to Art College, learn Maya, start freelancing using Maya, get jobs in studios using Maya, then move on to start there own studios using Maya and thus employ new grads who are trained with??? you guessed it "Maya".

It's a cycle which perpetuates itself. Cut one of those sectors off and it has knock-on effect.

Jaffro
09-05-2004, 04:38 AM
I really wanted to spend some time reading through this thread and I think its changed tone a little into a 'how newtek can improve educational deals'.

tbh i dont think that's where the problem is. I'm just about to start on my final year at college and almost every week my tutor chats to me about switching the pipeline, but it never happens. Basically its because the larger part of the market is looking for maya users. There's greater demand for maya, softimage etc than there is for lightwave (not to say there isn't demand for LW because as was pointed out in the first post there is demand!).

This basically fits into what riki just mentioned - a cycle, feedback loop, problem! ding ding ding! Educators make the supply for the demand, so that's why they're mainly training in maya, problem is that obviously if there's no supply then a studio cant turn around and suddenly start using another app without *serious* reason.

What we need is innovation! Some brand new thinking into the market that LW has always really prooven good at. Something that would make studio's look round and say 'wow - i never thought we could do that'. My point being if the studio's take LW up as a more important part of the pipeline then educators will follow.

I'm gona shut up now :)

Hervé
09-05-2004, 05:06 AM
New stuff that will make people say "Woaw !" are around the corner... for LW AND other competitors... unfortunatly only the ones with the most impressive and inovative as well as good UI's "new magic tools" will improve their number of users... and stay on the market...

btw, for LW it started not a long time ago with F_Prime, which is for me a major improvment for LW... (at least for me... but i think I am not the only one to think that F_Prime changed the LW workflow more efficiently than the new V8.., and as some complained, for less money)

PS. NT should (must) be well inspired to communicate a little more by telling us : "yes, dear LW Users, we are working closely with M. Worley Steve to open the SDK and make F_Prime the real Stuff.... not a half tool... (well better half than nothing) :rolleyes: :D

Hervé
09-05-2004, 05:07 AM
BTW, well said Riki.... as usual... ;)

Yog
09-05-2004, 05:11 AM
Educators make the supply for the demand, so that's why they're mainly training in maya, problem is that obviously if there's no supply then a studio cant turn around and suddenly start using another app without *serious* reason.

Another point of consideration is that as well as the formal teaching establishments, there is the vast army of hobbiests that help to supply the demand. In the past NT/LW have done very well in this area as LW was about the cheepest of the "highend" apps, which was ideal for hobbiests trying to break into the market.

However in recient years, as well as pushing the education deals strongly, the other apps have produced trial versions of their software to let people train for free, albit with some restrictions. No response from NT.

Even worse most of the other apps (with the exception of MAX), have dropped their prices significantly whilst Newtek have marginally increased the price of theirs. This means that for the entry level package (LW only has one level), LW now finds itself on a par price wise with the rest, if not significantly more expensive.
Any idea where those hobbiests on a tight budget will be going for their first 3D package ?

CB_3D
09-05-2004, 10:47 AM
.
Any idea where those hobbiests on a tight budget will be going for their first 3D package ?

I actually have some perspective on this.

The situation here in Portugal is the following. Mainly max , some Maya, some LW and very little XSI.

That´s the "pro" side, if you want to call it that way (that i am saying because "pro" output more often than not looks rushed,IMO). Interesting enough, the LW users have,IMHO again, the best looking results.

Then there´s C4d coming fast from the semi side, for example most architectural photographers i know who want to offer more than just photos go for it. These people need something fast and easy, and it seems (judging from the results of even unexperienced users) that C4d delivers in that area.
For example a colleague of mine who has very little practical 3d experience (multimedia specialist, flash, video editing etc) instinctively went for C4d when he needed some simple and fast 3d graphics to include in his work.

But take this with a grain of salt . Our market is so small that i am talking about, maybe, 40-50 3d users i know of.

Chuck
09-05-2004, 11:20 AM
However in recient years, as well as pushing the education deals strongly, the other apps have produced trial versions of their software to let people train for free, albit with some restrictions. No response from NT.

Actually we've distributed tens of thousands of demo editions worldwide. Our demo edition has been on a number of coverdisks and has been available on CD on request, not to mention the open secret that downloading and installing certain update patches resulted in having a demo mode LightWave. We are currently preparing a demo edition of LightWave [8].

We've always maintained an aggressive educational program. Our student and institutional editions are competitive priced but with the critical difference that these editions are the complete product with no restrictions, including that they do not time out, and that an individual student copy may be upgraded to a commercial license just by paying the commercial upgrade price.


Even worse most of the other apps (with the exception of MAX), have dropped their prices significantly whilst Newtek have marginally increased the price of theirs. This means that for the entry level package (LW only has one level), LW now finds itself on a par price wise with the rest, if not significantly more expensive.

LightWave dropped from $2495US to $1595US prior to any of the other major 3D applications dropping in price. LightWave remains available at $1595US with electronic documentation. Among package versions actually ready and capable for professional production, that's still the least expensive for the range of included features.

The market is in a very aggressive phase right now, and we are certainly reviewing all the options and responses and planning accordingly. We appreciate the input from concerned users, and will factor that input into our considerations.

Yog
09-05-2004, 12:13 PM
Actually we've distributed tens of thousands of demo editions worldwide. Our demo edition has been on a number of coverdisks and has been available on CD on request, not to mention the open secret that downloading and installing certain update patches resulted in having a demo mode LightWave. We are currently preparing a demo edition of LightWave [8].
Unfortunately it looks as though most of those "tens of thousands" were the ones on the cover disks, because if you really do specifically want a demo disk from NT or NT-Europe it's like pulling teeth. A friend wanted a demo to do a comparrison, and after waiting for over two months for it to arrive we actually lent him a spare dongle from work for a couple weeks. And from the stories on the forums our experience isn't unique. We did try the hidden secrete demo/upgrade (only really useful to existing LW users), but it refused to work. We found out later that we needed to copy some of the files from one of our installs in order to give the upgrade something to "upgrade".


LightWave dropped from $2495US to $1595US prior to any of the other major 3D applications dropping in price. LightWave remains available at $1595US with electronic documentation. Among package versions actually ready and capable for professional production, that's still the least expensive for the range of included features.
I know the upgrade price for LW8 definately went up in price by $100, and I'm pretty sure the full licence went up by 1-2 hundred or so.
"Range of features" is very subjective, there is having it written on a feature list, and there is having it implemented fully. But then, your probably the wrong person to be aguing marketing speak with ;) :D

Chuck
09-06-2004, 10:04 AM
Yog, really, I'm not trying to do "marketing speak". To the contrary, I feel that your characterizations of matters are somewhat different than the reality I have experienced, and in that sense could be thought to represent "marketing speak" for a particular point of view, and what I am trying to do is to share a different perspective on things, based on my experience. Please be assured I am not trying to be insulting nor am I questioning your truthfulness, as I don't doubt that it is done out of concern for the future of LightWave, that you sincerely feel that way about things, that your personal experience has contributed to your views, and that I and others here at NewTek need to factor your experience into our considerations, and make an effort to provide a better experience in the future for all LightWave customers.

My experience is that we've distributed huge numbers of demo disks directly all around the world, in addition to the coverdisk appearances, and in the overwhelming majority of instances it has not been "pulling teeth" to get those, just a phone call or an email with your name and address. When there have been difficulties in getting a demo disk it has usually been due to the fact that we were re-evaluating the current demo version or making changes to it, and therefore weren't shipping it out for a time. How effective the demo program and other efforts of the NewTek Europe office have been in particular is evidenced by considerable growth in the number of LightWave seats sold per year. That there is more success possible is also almost certainly true, and we and they are working together to plan and to build for that success. Their marketing efforts on behalf of LightWave have steadily increased in scope and in my estimation have shown a very creative approach.

As for the pricing issue, there is no need to be "pretty sure", about something rather than absolutely sure - our prices are posted, after all, and have been all along. From the time that LightWave first went standalone, we offered the upgrade at $495. When we reduced LightWave's full seat MSRP to $1595, we reduced the upgrade price to $395 for a while, perhaps about a year, then reverted to $495. When the pre-order for LightWave [8] was made available, we instituted two tiers of upgrade - $495 for the upgrade with electronic documentation, and $595 for the upgrade with electronic and printed documentation. With the release of [8] for new sales on June 30th, we instituted two tiers of full seat pricing - $1595 with electronic documentation and printed "Getting Started" tutorial manual, and $1695 with electronic and printed documentation, including printed Tutorial manual.

So: LightWave remains available at an upgrade price that has been available for nearly a decade, and full seats at the reduced price that we instituted just prior to Maya's reduction; but the price of a copy of LightWave, upgrade or full, with printed docs has indeed increased by $100. Sounds like we both have a point.

And as I mentioned, the market has had some significant events recently, and we've some quick thinking to do to respond appropriately. That these considerations should include our strategies and tactics in education, regular pricing, and the nature and distribution of our demo edition is quite correct. But our regular pricing for LightWave has had considerable review and thought, and isn't likely to be the point of change. Our full product remains less expensive than even the lower tiers, let alone the full product of most of the major professional applications, and we typically have significant value-adds in software or training materials. But there are a variety of issues to consider around the offerings of the other major applications, including pricing of the lowest tier for each, and around competing with much larger companies with far deeper marketing pockets.

If there are features that you do not feel are fully developed, that's certainly something you can let us know and that we can address in development. We do have a lot of things we plan to address, and we are doing marketing research with customers and potential customers to assist in prioritizing our development and shaping marketing plans.

Hervé
09-06-2004, 10:20 AM
Hello Chuck, I really have a question for you.... are you working closely with M. Worley as you said before Siggraph, when F_Prime just came in.....

Please, drop me a private mail if you feel it is secret... Please.... Please... help me.... please.... ;)

Regrads, Hervé

LWOG
09-06-2004, 12:45 PM
It seems to me the problem with the $100 price difference is that everyone knows the manual isn't costing NewTek $100. Book publishers are able to release giant books for less than $50, with a CD, profit built in and royalty payments.

So the perception is that NewTek is just taking advantage of people and charging an extra large amount for something feel like they should probably be getting anyway - especially for a product that is already $1600. Products that cost a lot less than that manage to figure out a way to include a book.

-------
LWOG
Selling one full (not educational) copy of LW7.5 for $350 - PM for more..

cresshead
09-06-2004, 01:03 PM
regarding demo cdroms of lightwave:

over a year ago i started teaching 3d at a college and wanted to add a "intro to lightwave" above the regualr 3ds max driven courseware we teach..i contacted onevideo.net [my lw reseller] and they most kindly sent out 50 lghtwave de discs and well as promotional lightwave printed materials..i've since ran 3 intro to lightwave courses at people's college and have had 10 student's go out and buy full commercial lightwave 7.5 or lightwave 8.0 seats for themselves as they were quite impressed with the software.

now each lw class had between 12-15 students in it so 10 "sells" for 40 students is pretty good in my book and i now run my OCN modules with any software the student want's...either their own lightwave/cinema4d or lightwave de or edu max

lightwave score pretty high here even though i'm the only 3d lecturer that teaches it out of the three lecturers here.
[i also teach 3ds max/character studio, premiere, combustion, corel draw]
...and soon xsi [couldn't resist the low tag on it]

also note that with the 90 or so students i've taught so far not one of them has bought a full version of 3ds max 6.0 even though it's the prefered learning app for 3d here...

2 now have cinema 4d 8.5 commercial
6 have edu max 6.0
10 have commercial lightwave
2 have xsi foundation
zero have maya complete or unlimited or edu [we do not use maya though]
quite a few 15 or so have cinemaCE6.0 [though none of those use it]
2 have motionbuilder personal version
none have messiah animate or studio
1 will have combustion soon
several have wings3d but do not use it that much [they should really]
most [30-40] have lightwave 7.5 or 8.0 de and are looking toward lightwave.
1 has 3dsmax 3.1 and character studio 3.0 commercial bought second hand.


so

lightwave is doing just fine in some areas. :)

Architook
09-06-2004, 01:51 PM
It seems to me the problem with the $100 price difference is that everyone knows the manual isn't costing NewTek $100. Book publishers are able to release giant books for less than $50, with a CD, profit built in and royalty payments.

So the perception is that NewTek is just taking advantage of people and charging an extra large amount for something feel like they should probably be getting anyway - especially for a product that is already $1600. Products that cost a lot less than that manage to figure out a way to include a book.



Have you seen the printed documentation? It's huge! It's bigger than a "giant book".

Yes, Newtek is probably making a profit on those printed docs, but I doubt it's very much at all, it's probably enough to just cover the actual costs plus overhead and hassle factor.

It is true that there's a big PERCEPTION problem with the $100 fee though, which is unpleasant for Newtek. It does look like a dig at users. But if you actually get The Big Package you'll understand. It aint a few hundred page stapled photocopy.

Maybe Newtek could reduce the perception problem by labelling it differently. Everyone gets a small printed overview manual. The Full Big Printed Tome is just renamed as hardcopy of the training material, not "hardcopy of the docs". "The docs" sounds like the fundamental reference, but really it's a lot more.

Beamtracer
09-06-2004, 03:38 PM
It's funny when I complained about paying hundreds of dollars extra for my LW 8 upgrade, and complained about not being able to purchase online directly from the Newtek site, everyone jumped on me and told me that I was being short-sighted for not supporting the LW community in Australia, for not supporting New MagicI'm sorry to hear that you had to deal with New Magic.

CoryC
09-07-2004, 12:56 AM
Have you seen the printed documentation? It's huge! It's bigger than a "giant book".

...The Full Big Printed Tome is just renamed as hardcopy of the training material, not "hardcopy of the docs". "The docs" sounds like the fundamental reference, but really it's a lot more.

That probably won't help them. I recently purchased some other software and it came with a big manual as well as several DVDs at no extra charge. The $100 charge for manuals will always rub some people wrong no matter how it is labeled and if competitors are including manuals it is one more bullet point for them to add to their feature list and competitive comparison charts.

Chuck
09-07-2004, 08:59 AM
That probably won't help them. I recently purchased some other software and it came with a big manual as well as several DVDs at no extra charge. The $100 charge for manuals will always rub some people wrong no matter how it is labeled and if competitors are including manuals it is one more bullet point for them to add to their feature list and competitive comparison charts.

The issue is really not what most competitors are doing, it is what they are not doing - they are not offering an electronic documentation version of the product. We do. And both our Electronic pack and our Standard pack are priced at less than where most of the others start. If they portray us as not shipping printed manuals, that's simply untrue - that's the Standard Pack for upgrades or full seats. We just offer options on whether or not to have them and the ability to change your mind if you first order the Electronic pack and then decide you want the manuals.

TOXIC-3D
09-15-2004, 12:19 PM
How'dee all...


Its funny as hell that I came upon this posting... I went an shelled out the $1500+ to purchase the Commercial version of Lightwave 7.5 and was I "Totally Dissapointed" when I opened up the manual... Absolutely No Tutorials worth mentioning,... and it was printed in glorous "Grey & White".... I feel that when it comes to "ANY" graphics software with a cost of $1500+ its a huge slap in the face when you open up the 10 pound book and realize that its in Grey & White! With no tutorials ta'boot... And I'm sorry Chuck,... but having an electronic manual for download is nothing more than a "cop'out"... "Yeah, we'll charge every shmuck out there a $100. for a grey and white book and we'll let them have a downloadable version of the manual in complete color.... ....they wont mind having to minimize & expand Lightwave every five seconds or so...


And as for the original purpose of this thread,... I have seen it for sometime now... I live in the Boston area and I went from one Lightwave User Group that was held at one of the local colleges to another... Each time it was the exact same crap... I get in,... I get to enjoy anywhere from 2 - 3 months worth of meetings (1 a month) and then hey, guess what,... the school has decided to "DROP" Lightwave and Take up Maya... "Sorry, but your out..." This happened at "3",... count'em, "3" College's within a year & a half!!! And one of the biggest things the I kept hearing was "Newteks" apearent lack of consideration for their customers when it came to "continued involvement" after they spent their money on Lightwave... "A Grey & White Manual for instance..." "No kind of promotions, contest, or incentive to stick with Newtek... But hey,... atleast they post some "High Res" textures for our downloading enjoyment... I have yet to find one person who's ever used one of those "Free Textures" in anything that they work on... Not one of them is tile'able... and the majority of them are pretty much, you'kno... crap.


To be honest... I've never tryed Maya... or XSI but once I get a reply to a posting that I just placed in the Community section of this forum concerning the new manuals being in color or not I'm going to seriously think about taking the jump... I for one didn't spend $1500+ with not intentions of trying to get into the animational field. And although it is true that companies out there have their own software I have been hearing more & more about companies shelving Lightwave and moving on to Maya & XSI because they honestly feel that the two software's and their companies seem to have alot more "future" potential and involvement with their customers...


Toxic'... :cool:

A.Russell
09-15-2004, 12:43 PM
EDIT> Oop, I just realised I replied to an old post. :eek: My first time on the new forum :o

cresshead
09-15-2004, 01:00 PM
black n white?
your kidding right?
i paid Ł65 for the manual months back and i'm still waiting for it to "appear" in the u.k....now i hear it's just a photocopy version of the pdf...well i may just cancel my order and get a lazer printer and print one out myself from the pdf seeing as newtek europe have done ZERO to get the manual to me in the u.k.

...i'll call onevideo.net tomorrow and see what's the hold up [again]

...not a happy bunny.

come on people "get with it" please!

steve g

anieves
09-15-2004, 01:06 PM
some ppl here have no idea how much a manual of the size of the LW maunual would cost to print in full color. It would just be a financial disaster to print a manual in full color, give me a break. As a matter of fact none of my software books are full color. :rolleyes:

cresshead
09-15-2004, 01:31 PM
well i'm not advocating newtek print all the pages in full color..all 1500 of them!

just relevent parts such as piks for rendering or surfacing in parts of the manual..as other books do...or have a color section for reference as nearly ALL max books and lightwave books do...

still...i can't complain about the quality of the print as i've been waiting for the manual on back order for 4-5 months....

steve g

Chuck
09-15-2004, 04:09 PM
Hi, Cress!

It doesn't occur to you that there may be a method to our madness in providing a manual in grayscale hardcopy and in full-color interactive PDF? :)

For those times when you need or even just want to see a particular illustration in color, you can - any and all of them. We also have a print-res color PDF, for those who want to print a section or the entire reference manual in full color.

It should be noted that the $100 Documentation Pack includes not only the the 1562-page Reference Manual but the 289-page "Getting Started" tutorial manual as well.

Cost for printing the two profusely illustrated books (the Reference Manual includes 2900 images) in full color would indeed be prohibitive at the current price points for upgrades and full seats.

This is why we've made the complete reference manual available as a free download, in the form of an interactive, full-color PDF. In addition, both the interactive PDF (lo-res to save memory, so you can have it loaded while you work within LightWave) and the print-resolution full color PDF are available on the latest edition of the Program CD, which can be ordered for $29.95US.

Chuck
09-15-2004, 04:47 PM
How'dee all...


Its funny as hell that I came upon this posting... I went an shelled out the $1500+ to purchase the Commercial version of Lightwave 7.5 and was I "Totally Dissapointed" when I opened up the manual... Absolutely No Tutorials worth mentioning,... and it was printed in glorous "Grey & White".... I feel that when it comes to "ANY" graphics software with a cost of $1500+ its a huge slap in the face when you open up the 10 pound book and realize that its in Grey & White! With no tutorials ta'boot... And I'm sorry Chuck,... but having an electronic manual for download is nothing more than a "cop'out"... "Yeah, we'll charge every shmuck out there a $100. for a grey and white book and we'll let them have a downloadable version of the manual in complete color.... ....they wont mind having to minimize & expand Lightwave every five seconds or so...

There's no copout to it - everyone can have the free full-color interactive reference manual just for the download, if they received the pre-order Program CD, and no one has to buy the printed edition - it's a choice available to the user. The charge for manuals is unchanged since 4.0 despite the fact that the current manuals are now several times the size. Some editions have included a color section, some haven't. Since we began supplying a full-color PDF, a printed color section has not seemed to us to be necessary - the user has access to all the images in color.



And as for the original purpose of this thread,... I have seen it for sometime now... I live in the Boston area and I went from one Lightwave User Group that was held at one of the local colleges to another... Each time it was the exact same crap... I get in,... I get to enjoy anywhere from 2 - 3 months worth of meetings (1 a month) and then hey, guess what,... the school has decided to "DROP" Lightwave and Take up Maya... "Sorry, but your out..." This happened at "3",... count'em, "3" College's within a year & a half!!! And one of the biggest things the I kept hearing was "Newteks" apearent lack of consideration for their customers when it came to "continued involvement" after they spent their money on Lightwave... "A Grey & White Manual for instance..." "No kind of promotions, contest, or incentive to stick with Newtek...

No incentives or promotions? For nearly a year those who purchased upgrades or full seats had the incentive of $1785 in software - the DFX+ bundle - and when we were able to locate a partner we were able to provide the option for Mac upgraders to get $1500 in software - the Realviz bundle.

Right now we're offering training bundles.

In most cases we have found ways to apply our special offers to educational institutions as well.

In terms of involvement after the sale, I'd be very much interested to hear what the schools needed from us in that regard that we were not able to provide. Can you email me or private message me and let me know which schools were involved - we'll contact them. May not be anything we can do at this point, but we'd certainly like to talk to them anyway.



But hey,... atleast they post some "High Res" textures for our downloading enjoyment... I have yet to find one person who's ever used one of those "Free Textures" in anything that they work on... Not one of them is tile'able... and the majority of them are pretty much, you'kno... crap.

The fact is that the hi-res textures are just one of the many additional values that we offer to our customers. They can be turned into "tile-able" textures with a few minutes work manually or a few seconds work with some of the utilities available for just that purpose, and have had tens of thousands of downloads. A lot of folks seem to appreciate them. If they aren't something of interest to you, then we would hope that at some point some other content that we provide would be.

cresshead
09-15-2004, 05:00 PM
chuck, thanks for the prompt reply and i do take your points on board...my main concern is the lack of a printed manual even thoguh i've pre paid for it...

just what is the hold up for the u.k. re getting the printed manuals to customers that have paid for them...

personally i'd like a printed version [that's why i paid for it] so i can browse thru it whilst NOT at a computer...

no one has given an explanation to why europe/u.k can't seem to get their act in gear to move some wood pulp my way!

lets hope my hi lighting of this problem to you will galvanise newtek europe into some action and get my copy in my hands as soon as possible.

if NEWTEK are serious about lightwave they should make it a "priotity" to get learning rescources to CGI lecturers such as myself so i can pass on what i learn about lightwave 8.0 to students as soon as i can and a hard copy would help my
studying new features whilst commuting to teach at college....

please "move a mountain" closer to me....it would help promote lightwave in class in the long run.


cheers

steve g

HarverdGrad
09-15-2004, 08:03 PM
By the Power of Greyskull...I'm closing this thread.
My head hurts :mad:

hrgiger
09-15-2004, 09:54 PM
By the Power of Greyskull...I'm closing this thread.


Greyskull? Is that how it works? Well, by the power of Rice Crispies and a bannana, I'm keeping it open!

I was a little disappointed that the paper manual was gong to cost me $100 extra this time but to be honest, it seems like such an unimportant detail once I got Lightwave 8 in my hands. I really have come to like the searchable and color documentation. Hell, my Lightwave 7 paper manual is in so many pieces, it was a waste of time to try to read anymore anyway. Lightwave is still one of the best deals around for it's features and price range.

riki
09-15-2004, 11:26 PM
Well it's nice to keep all the bitchin in one place :)

Hervé
09-15-2004, 11:29 PM
well just to say I rarely read the manual.... but when I need an info... it s much better and easier and faster to look at the PDF.... :D

Printed manuals are stone age.... :D ;)

Now by the power of a nice juicy steack (medium please), I will......ZZZZZzzzzzz puf puf !! ahhh not again.... ah well..... :D

faulknermano
09-16-2004, 05:22 AM
all i can say is that i clearly remember being so utterly disappointed with the chapter on PFX. many of the descriptions of its parameters were simply a paraphrasing of the parameter itself. it was a real head-scratcher.

anieves
09-16-2004, 06:47 AM
well i'm not advocating newtek print all the pages in full color..all 1500 of them!

just relevent parts such as piks for rendering or surfacing in parts of the manual..as other books do...or have a color section for reference as nearly ALL max books and lightwave books do...

still...i can't complain about the quality of the print as i've been waiting for the manual on back order for 4-5 months....

steve g

don't take it personally cress, I wasn't talking directly at you. You know all those software reference books do have a color section but is is just eye candy. The books wouldn't be less valuable without a color section...

cresshead
09-16-2004, 07:01 AM
hi

no problem!

just talked to newtek europe on the telephone and they are currently re writing the manual for the european market and it's due to ship the NEW version of the manual in early october 2004 it their re write goes to plan.

i surpose in the mean time i'll print out sections from the pdf if i need to have
it in print for myself or students...

steve g