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edmellnik
04-01-2003, 03:58 PM
I am posting this here because there is no one getting back to us in the Aura section.
I have been trying to Load RTV cLip in Aura work on it and save
as RTV clip.
WHen I put it back on the time line it is stobed.
Looks like wrong field.
Before anyone just writes back that all you have to do is change a setting please realize that I have tried everything.
Load Frame. Load field even. Load field odd.
Modify project before and during and after.
No matter what the clip comes out stobed.
or fielded wrong.
We have been discussing it for two weeks and no one from Newtek has jumped in to help. This is a vital function of Aura and I am not the only one having the problem.

Ed :(

SBowie
04-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Ed, sorry - not from NewTek, but having a hectic week. I spent quite a bit of time trying to sort out al the variables involved with this last weekend, and made some progress, but it's undeniably more complex than it should be.

For the moment, let's just deal with the one issue. You want to load RTV's into Aura, to do what? And which sort of RTV's - the older 'Even first 480 lines,' or the newer ODD first 486 lines' style. Thanks....

edmellnik
04-01-2003, 05:05 PM
Well, I dont know whether they are new RTVs or Old RTVs.
They are RTVs I created this month but I chose the 480 choice rather than the 486. I did this because I wanted to use TMPEG for reincoding to MPEG 2 and that is the standard for that.
Now I dont know what they are since when I load them in Aura it says they are 486.

What I dont get is why there are not more people bitching.
This is a standard function for Aura.

As far as what I was doing with the clips in Aura....
Sometimes I run a filter on them....this time I was actually cleaning some drop out specs on some frames ( old footage ).

Ed

mrjaialai
04-01-2003, 05:27 PM
Do you mean strobing? If you mean what I think you do try using the Fix Motion filter. The few times I've had problems with Aura that has helped.

SBowie
04-01-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by edmellnik

Well, I dont know whether they are new RTVs or Old RTVs.
They are RTVs I created this month but I chose the 480 choice rather than the 486. I did this because I wanted to use TMPEG for reincoding to MPEG 2 and that is the standard for that.
Now I dont know what they are since when I load them in Aura it says they are 486. Then they are 486.


Originally posted by edmellnik
As far as what I was doing with the clips in Aura....
Sometimes I run a filter on them....this time I was actually cleaning some drop out specs on some frames ( old footage ).
Reason I ask is that if you are only running filters(not adding any animated brushes or anything like that) there's no need to use a fielded project. This will both save render time and avoid problems.

So, in this case, you ought to be able to:

- Simply open a new project set to 720x486, NONE, .9 aspect.

- load the sequence, and perform whatever filter operation you like.

- set export mode to RTV, and export the sequence.

This should work perfectly - if not, please let me know. But it doesn't solve your 'wrong size' issue....

So, if you first want to crop off 6 pixels (making this scene 720x486) do the following -- but there's a catch:

- open the Project>Modify panel

- change the project height to 480 (you may need to deselect [Lock Aspect]

- click on [Keep Project] ... NOT [Stretch Project]

Now for the "interesting part" ... saving at this point will not work correctly. (I haven't quite reached my final conclusions, but I'm convinced some of the confusion lies with the Toaster, not Aura.)

To get it to work correctly, select all frames, and right click on the Transform Tool button (second last button in the Main Panel). In the tool settings panel (Tool:Transform) set "Panning Y" to "-1.00" and click [Apply]. Now you can Export the RTV, and it should look just fine in Toaster Edit or a DDR.

This issue REALLY frigging complicated, and those who have suggested some improvement needs to be made are correct -- but it's far from straightforward. As soon as I get time I'll try to post a little list of suggestions on what settings to use in various circumstances.

Hope this helps a bit. Like I said, I've spent WAY too much time trying to get a handle on this. I will say this much ... Aura is not entirely the problem here.

SBowie
04-01-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by mrjaialai
Do you mean strobing? If you mean what I think you do try using the Fix Motion filter. The few times I've had problems with Aura that has helped. Fix Motion would indeed mask the issue a bit, but is really meant for de-fielding video images and eliminating interlace flicker with thin horizontal lines. It won't really remove the problem, just reduce it a bit.

There are two problems going on here. One is that it's a bit too easy to wind up with flipped fields in certain processes. The other problem is a 2 dimensional translation problem, for lack of a better phrase. The fields are in correct order, but off by one video line. This error kicks in sometimes when changing project size, among other things. It results in the more subtle "comb effect" mentioned in one or more of the parallel threads. De-fielding softens the apparent error in both cases, but at the expense of degradation.

edmellnik
04-01-2003, 10:48 PM
Thanks Steve. IT is not you that should be figuring this stuff out, but Newtek.

And No Just loading Frames and saving set to NONE does not work either. Thats how I started all this. And only started dealing with fields to see if I could find a fix.

As far as the difference between 480 and 486 - it does not seem to be a big problem. But until they fix the comb filter problem....
I guess I dont see how Aura can be used.

Guess I should go back and reload a stand alone version of Aura 1.0

ed
:mad:

SBowie
04-02-2003, 05:36 AM
Ed, bear with me... Part of your trouble at the outset was that you were (unbeknownst to yourself, and through no fault of your own) working with 486 files, not 480s. If you load these into a '480 None' project, you're correct - it won't work the way I said(without the Y axis trick).

But, assuming the originally captured files still exist (not ones which have loaded and saved in Aura previously, embedding the issue), '486 RTV's into and out of a 486 NONE project work exactly as I've said. I've tested this extensively, capturing in the same fashion you did (that is , PURPORTEDLY as 480).

SBowie
04-02-2003, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by edmellnik
Thanks Steve. IT is not you that should be figuring this stuff out, but Newtek. p.s. - in fairness, this is a convoluted problem, and the gang at NewTek are tremendously busy in the runup to VT[3] and NAB these last few weeks. They've been uncharacteristically absent or nearly so from most of the forums they usually frequent. I'm sure that will change before too long.

edmellnik
04-02-2003, 11:59 PM
Steve,
It looks like my main problem is in capturing in the Newtek 480 choice. Since I just captured using the 486i and loaded it into Aura and saved. IT looked ok. SO I have learned my lesson.
I will not use the 480i choice. OF course before the came out with t2 that was the standard. I have never heard a real explaination as to why the went with 486i when the rest of the world is 480i.
Anyway, I have finished my project with work arounds.
Hope they know about the problem.
Maybe it will be fixed by T3.

ed

SBowie
04-03-2003, 04:55 AM
Well, '480i' capture is certainly 'busted' in 3890. But Aura can handle what it does capture when you select 480i, because it's just everyday vanilla 486i. I beleive the problem you encounted was (partly) because you thought it was 480, as it should have been, and began by loading that into a 480 project.

From there it goes downhill. Saving it back out of Aura, it has now actually become 480, having been cropped by 6 pixels on the bottom. This should normally be no problem, assuming the field order hasn't been screwed up accidentally by wrong selections, But even when the field order is correct, that particular operation produces that damnable comb effect - on the Toaster.

I THINK (this is the part I haven't had time to trace thoroughly yet) this is a compound error resulting from the way Aura handles fields AND the manner in which the Toaster (not Aura) is handling 480 line files. I see it as a field PLACEMENT error rather than a field ORDER error. It may be a little while before I can get to the bottom of it but I'm running a fairly high confidence level that in situations that would provoke it, a 1 pixel vertical shift in Aura before saving will 'fix' it.

I have to say that it surprised me,as I performed countless experiments trying to track this down, to find that time after time Aura was doing exactly what it ought to. I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure we'll find out the same issue does not appear with Aura output on a "native" 480 device.

edmellnik
04-03-2003, 11:25 AM
Yes Steve, I concur except for one thing.
If you capture in T2 as a 480i. ...there is nothing you can do
to AUra to make it work right. No project modify or setting of fields.
This maybe is a T2 Capture error. Well we know it is T2 that is capturing 486 when choosing 480. And in the 480i mode it most be doing the field placement wrong.
The only answer is Dont try capturing in 480i with T2.
Maybe you could make sure this is noted with the Newtek boys.
Thanks for your time
ed

SBowie
04-03-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by edmellnik
Yes Steve, I concur except for one thing.
If you capture in T2 as a 480i. ...there is nothing you can do
to AUra to make it work right. No project modify or setting of fields. Actually, I can make it (480i capture) work in Aura OK, Ed. But it's kind of pointless -- since the captured file is actually 486 regardless, you might as well capture it as such.

edmellnik
04-03-2003, 12:51 PM
You have said this in a way that makes me think you can capture directly in Aura....if so I hve never done this.
When I capture in T2 and load the sequence in Aura I can not make it work in any combination if I do the capturing at 480i in T2.
ed

SBowie
04-03-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by edmellnik
You have said this in a way that makes me think you can capture directly in Aura....if so I have never done this.ed Not what I meant to convey, Ed. When I wrote "I can make it (480i capture) work in Aura OK" I meant I can make files captured as 480i (using the Toaster Capture module) subsequently work OK in Aura and afterward. English, who needs it... :-p


Originally posted by edmellnik

When I capture in T2 and load the sequence in Aura I can not make it work in any combination if I do the capturing at 480i in T2.
ed I can but -- since it would take yet more time for us to discuss the numerous project field/size possibilities, and in the end the result would not be any different than capturing as 486 -- let's not waste the time on discussing how.

Scott Bates
04-03-2003, 03:13 PM
English, who needs it...
Steve, it's just that Canadian accent you put on it - always throws off us "South of the Border" Englishmen :(

... but we'd better not ask Andrew who slaughters the King's English worser than the 'togher ...

SBowie
04-03-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by sbates
Steve, it's just that Canadian accent you put on it Heh - must be my day for it. Earlier today in another forum this 'zinger' came my way (all in fun):

"you frozen-*** Laplander...at least my sun sets every evening...which is more than I can say for it when it is up in your neck of the woods...I hope a large snowball rolls off your mountain, gains speed,gets bigger and bigger and crashes into your igloo..."

Scott Bates
04-03-2003, 03:20 PM
I've tracked this conversation as long as I can without asking...

Ed, you said:

I chose the 480 choice rather than the 486. I did this because I wanted to use TMPEG for reincoding to MPEG 2 and that is the standard for that.
Why not save all this agony by just capturing 720x486 in TEd, build the project and use Kirk Monger's TMPEG .rtv plugin and let it do the conversion from 486 to 480?

Just had to ask....

edmellnik
04-03-2003, 03:26 PM
Yes, That would be what to do in the future. However, I had no idea when I began to capture my clips for this project that if I captured at 480i that it would not be correct 480i.
THis is a bug in T 2.

Now that I know this. I will stay away from 480i and let it capture in 486i.

ed

ScorpioProd
04-04-2003, 12:06 AM
OK, gotta ask, if one isn't doing any Aura operation on the clips, is this 480i problem a problem?

Cause frankly, like Ed, I have absolutely NO use for 486i, so I ALWAYS do all my capturing at 480i in T[2]. After all, DV and MPEG-2 are all 480 line, and that's 100% of my work.

I've frankly never been convinced I'm really getting 480i though, since the file properties clearly tell me I'm not, and so does Aura for that matter.

So should I simply use 486i for everything till T[3]?

SBowie
04-04-2003, 04:17 AM
Doesn't appear to be working, Eugene - though this is likely codec dependant. I haven't got time to try it out this AM, but something like a DV codec which (in NTSC) uses a 480 default likely works as advertised.

edmellnik
04-04-2003, 11:35 AM
Eugene,

If Steve is correct that when you capture in 480i you are really capturing in 486i that Aura is reading strangly....then all this stuff in my project still encoded ok in TmpeE and also encoded ok when I transcoded it from RTV to DV.
But when you try to bring into Aura and save - it saves out with a strange comb filter effect.
Now As long as I capture in 486i I am ok.

If you load a clip you think you captured in 480i you will see that Aura says it is 486i and Steve says he has confirmed this.
But it is not the same 486i that you would get if you captured in 486i to begin with.

Hope that shed some mud on the subject.

ed :p

SBowie
04-04-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by edmellnik

If Steve is correct a) Steve is ALWAYS correct :D
b) except when he doesn't explain things as well as he ought...


Originally posted by edmellnik

that when you capture in 480i you are really capturing in 486i that Aura is reading strangly....[/i]
Wow, that's a mouthful. Not quite what I meant, though. When you Capture an RTV, whether set to 480i or 486i, what you get is a standard (Toaster2 style) 486i file. Either way, it loads properly into Aura.

However (!) if you either load that 486 into a 480 Aura project, or crop it (using any one of several methods) to 480, "stuff happens" when you go back to the Toaster. I can't definitely say this is a bug in Aura so much as a mis-match between Aura and the Toaster. There may well not be any playback problem of these files on any other device.

It is bloody complex. It is possible to do the cropping and get the filed order correct in Aura, but then run into the "comb" effect ... which seems to be a factor of the way the Toaster (not Aura) places the 480 line display within the larger D1 output. Offsetting the imagery by a single line in Aura before export 'eliminates' this issue on the Toaster ouptut.


Originally posted by edmellnik

But it is not the same 486i that you would get if you captured in 486i to begin with.
Actually I think it is (the same).

edmellnik
04-04-2003, 02:28 PM
Steve.

I beg to differ with you. I can load a clip captured 480i into Aura and it will not save without the comb problem.

I can load a clip captured in 486i and it will save fine.

SO my conclusion is if the 480i clip is really 486...then it is no
the same as a 486i clip that was captured in 486i.

I understand that you think different but thats whats happening on my end.

This will be my last commune since we are getting ready for NAB.
ed

SBowie
04-04-2003, 02:41 PM
No problem, and I will look again when time permits (also packing). But I have tested this aspect and think there is simply some explainable difference in handling producing the issue in your case.

In witness of this, I have just Captured two files, one using the 486i setting, the other 480i. I imported both into the same 486 NONE Aura project, then exported each as RTVs without any modification. Both files are perfect, as I expected.

Not trying to be stubborn, just clear. :)