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View Full Version : blender now has edge sharpening!



jin choung
08-07-2004, 08:44 PM
howdy fellows,

well, from the sds front, i've been pulling for edge sharpening (non discrete, fp values) for our implementation.

well, for the as-yet unconverted, check out the implementation in the new release of blender (2.34)

http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Blender_2_34.319.0.html

EXTREMELY impressive for a COMPLETELY FREE APP!!!

it seems they also beat us to the punch with making EDGE ENTITIES and it seems that that step made opengl redraws FASTER (i think i have a slim grasp on why that would be....).

check it out and let's hope newtek learns from the big guys but also are mindful of the little guy coming up fast from behind!

jin

grafikimon
08-07-2004, 11:15 PM
Edge sharpening??? look at what they did with that UV mapper. That alone is worth the price of learning it.

Cman
08-08-2004, 12:05 AM
Blender's looking pretty cool.

siproductions
08-08-2004, 12:28 AM
Blender is great. I am glad that I stared out with it. It helped make the change to LW easy. I just wish I had more time to learn all the new features.

Hervé
08-08-2004, 01:43 AM
forget the edges, one could live without, .... but look at the UV_unwrapping thing, woaw !

all I can say is I wish LW would be a free app one day, if it's the way to go for having smart *** people to actually make a better app.....:D

Go LW GO !:cool:

it's like paying for a Toyota, when next door they give away Mitsubishi's for free....:rolleyes: :D

Back to work

Next real question is :: should LW become a free app.... ? I wont start a pool on that, dont worry NT.... we still support you, can you Pleeaaase, CAN YOU ????:( ;)

nice info Jin.

colkai
08-08-2004, 03:45 AM
Yup, think it's time to install Blender on the ole PC, gotta be a timesave in modelling once you've got over the initial learning curve.
I love LW, but boy, do I ever wish it had these sort of features!
Seems crazy that many low-cost / free apps have features we are still wishing for. :rolleyes:

Chris S. (Fez)
08-08-2004, 07:11 AM
Ouch!

Emmanuel
08-08-2004, 07:36 AM
Double-OUCH.
Downloaded it and now will play with it.

Hervé
08-08-2004, 07:52 AM
I am tryig it right now... no easy jump from LW, but hey... it's free !

BTW, dunno 'bout U guys, I feel like in a $5,000 app... it looks very pro.... no crashes either yet...:D

OK, back to work in LW !:rolleyes:

Hervé
08-08-2004, 07:55 AM
BTW also : IF a free app can have so many import/export formats... why not LW...?

Also, beside the fact they go in Sig, are we waiting for an upgrade.... or just playa playa song again....? I'd like to know....:mad: :D

wacom
08-08-2004, 10:36 AM
Hmm...iradience map rendering if you want it too...like Vray...

Still not LW...but getting closer and in some cases better...

Hiraghm
08-08-2004, 10:37 AM
Tried installing 2.34 on my omnibook... go figger, it won't run properly on a pentium 166 with 80 meg ram, 800 x 600 x 256 colors...

:D

mrunion
08-08-2004, 10:52 AM
I also used Blender, though not much since installing LW. Blender is truly a great application (and I'm NOT hacking LW!!) For those of you wanting to do bullet time, check out Blender's "Time IPO". I described it a few months back for something, but it is a neat concept.

Also, for the curious among you, check out their demo reel for Siggraph: Blender Demo Reel (http://www.blender.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=158&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

And some Pre-Viz stuff on Spiderman 2 used Blender: Spiderman 2 Pre-viz (http://www.blender.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=151&mode=thread&order=1&thold=0)

Again, no disrespect is intended towards NewTek with these comments. Just healthy information.

julos
08-08-2004, 12:09 PM
I used Blender two years ago, I even made tutorials on it : http://blender3dfr.free.fr/anglais/tuts.htm
At the time it was a nice app but felt limitated, the new versions look really good, the "spirit" is great.

kml12
08-08-2004, 12:30 PM
All we can do is hope NT learns from it's past mistakes, and takes serious steps forward as far as development goes.

I plan to learn other apps in my spare time like...

Hervé
08-08-2004, 11:23 PM
Development.... development.... ok I want it... where's LW8.1 ?:D

jamesl
08-09-2004, 12:51 AM
Since the source code is easily available, how hard could it be to reverse engineer these features? Blender doesn't seem to be a true open source project, so the legalities are a bit vague, but I think it's OK to take a peek at how they're doing what they're doing, without cpying the code directly. How about it, Newtek?

j

JCG
08-09-2004, 01:57 AM
Blender doesn't seem to be a true open source project, so the legalities are a bit vague Actually, Blender is GPL'ed

jin choung
08-09-2004, 03:09 AM
yup,

it cost money initially (community buy in) to make it so but it is completely gpl'd as of current....

but james may mean that it is indeed gpl'd instead of being completely free and public domain.

there are conditions of the gpl (like any modifications have to be open source and documented as well) and you can't just incorporate their code without some kickbacks (credit, open sourcing your stuff, etc... not sure on the particulars of the license).

great for other gpl projects but maybe not at all usable by for profit, non gpl companies.

i too love the egalitarian spirit and philosophy of free software. long live the gnu, linux, the penguin and etc!

but having said that, i don't believe it's reasonable to actually ASK newtek to make lw free!

i understand someone giving away something out of the goodness of their heart(s) but it's another thing to go up to a shopkeep and asking if you can have something for free... and not just for you... but to all interest parties.

it's a pet peeve of mine and the cornucopia of free stuff for lw promotes this kinda thought but it really really bothers me when people sell plugins and other stuff and people actually have the cajones to ask them to make it free!

WTH?!

as if there is some inaliable link between desire and fact?

again, i love the gpl, gnu and free software. i love open source and believe in the contribution to the public domain. i think larry lessig is great!

but if someone is selling something, ya can't reasonably ask them to give it away now... can ya?

jin

Alex Rooth
08-09-2004, 03:34 AM
Edge sharpening is something I would really like to see in Lightwave. I hope we don't have to wait till 9.0.

Best regards

Alex

Hervé
08-09-2004, 03:51 AM
Jin, it does not hurt to ask... sure I ask !

WTH... I wont live forever Jin....!:D ;)

Also Jin, you dont talk about Import/export capabilities of Blender... impressive !:rolleyes: :cool:

Karmacop
08-09-2004, 03:58 AM
What could be done is the code could be made into a free and open plug in. No legal issues then. They could even ship it with lightwave.

jin choung
08-09-2004, 05:17 AM
hey herve,

i know... like i said, it's a pet peeve. but it just seems like a super ballsy thing to ask. too much...

kinda like starting a pickup line with "do you have any idea how much i want to f you?" or "i was wondering if you had the time... to blow me"

sure, i guess it doesn't hurt to ask but... :)

but as you said, no harm done.

as for the import/export, i actually haven't checked it out yet. are there a lot of options?

i use deep exploration myself so i've never been at a loss for export options... also, if game exporting is the need, i've always recommended chumbalumsoft's app.

does blender support a lot of formats? is it mesh only? howabout uvs? and any animation export?

if anything, it may be a really cool import/export gobetween for wavers then.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

karmacop,

as for whether edge sharpening on our sds is even possible with a plugin is a question i would think...

jin

Hervé
08-09-2004, 06:16 AM
Lotsa free import/export.....

good thing is LW is in the import and export...:D

others are, well you choose...:D
(I recall it's a FREE app);)

grafikimon
08-09-2004, 07:46 AM
Wow export lightwave files. If it keeps the UV Maps then it is definately going into my tool box.

Now I have to download it to take a look

siproductions
08-09-2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by colkai
Yup, think it's time to install Blender on the ole PC, gotta be a timesave in modelling once you've got over the initial learning curve.
I love LW, but boy, do I ever wish it had these sort of features!
Seems crazy that many low-cost / free apps have features we are still wishing for. :rolleyes:


Just to clarify. Blender's modeling tools are not near as good as LW's yet. It does have some nice features though. Like edges. :D

Karmacop
08-09-2004, 10:20 AM
Edge sharpening with lightwave I think may be possible, but it'd be a massive hack :p

Somethuing that gives me hope is that, while my brother was making a standalone catmullclark program, I realised he needed to find all the edges in the object. Nw as you can imagine, if lightwave had to do this everytime you created or deleted some polygons, sds in lightwave would be very slow. So I'm making an educated guess that somewhere in lightwave it is keeping track of edges for this reason (or maybe just the sds part is keeping track of them). Now, if lw is keeping track of the edges it doesn't make them too different to polygons as points. So in some way edges are already a part of lightwave, just not accessible to the user or the SDK ... and maybe it's not even a core part of lightwave, but I believe it's there ;)

Also, just another point, LW's code is probably vastly different to Blender's, and so it'd probably be faster and more bug free for Newtek to implement their own verion then to copy Blender's anyway. :)

JCG
08-09-2004, 11:37 AM
but having said that, i don't believe it's reasonable to actually ASK newtek to make lw free! I also think asking that would be unreasonable, but I wonder if it would also be unreasonable to suggest keeping it commercial and proprietary but to also open development to community contributions through CVS. Sort of like Torque.

The reason for not considering that too unreasonable is that cutting edge technological secrets in LW's code are not what keep us using it. There's not really much in, say, modeler's code that would help you start a competing product more easily than the code that is already available from blender or wings.

The parts that ARE still cutting edge technology that is not extensively available, like hypervoxels or key parts of the renderer, could easily be kept out of the CVS.

What keeps me using LW modeler instead of blender, wings or silo is the select/move/drag workflow, which is what I spend most of my modeling time doing. For some reason, those apps make me feel like I'm modeling with a computer, whereas LW makes me feel like I'm modeling with an index finger, and it's all because of the way they do the select/move/drag

But that is not a coding issue. It's a logic issue. It wouldn't have been harder for the wings/blender crews to implement select/move/drag the LW way. They just chose to do it a different way because they thought it looked more modern.

They wouldn't even have to offer the CVS access to every license holder. They could offer it, by request, only to hand picked, subjectively selected members.

It's logical that when a development team undergoes major changes, the project will suffer a delay. There are areas where the community could add some much needed improvements that, by their very nature, can't be a priority for the dev team right now, and help with bug fixes. That would free the dev team to concentrate on the most important tasks.

The members who implemented major features would probably expect to get the next upgrade for free (since not everything might be available for them in the cvs) but, all things considered, depending on the features they implemented and how many new users those features attracted, it might not be such a bad deal.

Big Jay
08-09-2004, 12:26 PM
Doesn't this make it free idea really just go back to the SDK because with the correct sdk and lscript hooks we could add any function for any other software we choose to use and they could all keep their jobs

:)

Boy you guys are cruel... you'd get rid of Irene just to get Lightwave for free... Oh the humanities

:D

I don't think anyone should loose a job in order for me to get a piece of software. If I really didn't have money to buy lightwave or photoshop then I could easily roll up my sleves and help the blender, wings3d and Gimp communitys catch up to the big boys. Hell I chipped in some time on the wings3d manual just so that it would have a decent looking manual.

colkai
08-09-2004, 01:06 PM
Well,
This thread has taken a turn I want to dis-associate my self with.
I simply made a comment about LW not having features that exist in free packages.
To then say Lightwave should be free, well, no, definitely not.
I love LW, I just wish some of these features would make it into the product.
People already complain about lack of marketing etc... So what funds exactly would Newtek use to market LW in the 'other reality' idea of it being freeware?

I agree with what someone posted ealier as well, the core code of LW may not make it possible to easily implement these features. Speaking as a coder, I know, what sometimes seems a simple request from the users point of view, is a nightmare in terms of code. Doesn't stop me hoping, but let's be realistic here folks.
Heck, why not shoot for the moon... why isn't Maya unlimited and XSI freeware? Whilst we're at it, could Honda please send me a nice new Super Blackbird please? I paid for my last Honda bike! ;)

siproductions
08-09-2004, 01:19 PM
I agree colkai. I am happy to pay for such a good package.

Hervé
08-09-2004, 02:06 PM
Did U really pay for your last Honda bike ?? How could U ? NNnnnoooo, I was just joking.... man when I say LW for free, it is more intented for pushing up the LW team a bit... nothing harmful.... unless U care off course...:D ;)

.... and you know.. I dont really care so much about edges, but more about the import/export ., I would pay a little extra for a LW with cad ..... ....:D :D

caesar
08-09-2004, 02:22 PM
And its just a upgrade from version 2.33 (it´s 2.34 now)

Nemoid
08-09-2004, 02:31 PM
I really agree with the JCG statements. I tried Blender some little time ago, and i have maya PLE too, but i have to say that what makes an app a really good app for modelling are not only tools but selection system and move/ manipulate items system too.

Well, in Lw seems that selection system is so natural and obviously made for the artist that you really feel the difference.
also the cursor position for using modelling tools like stretching, moving, rotate and more is very fast and efficient and it has the other modes for different purposes.

So, if i agree with the need for edge items and tool support, edge weighting, n gons and other, i also tend to ask that :

1) joining pieces of geometry must be easy. welding points should be easy like now and no edges should be merged in that operation if there's no particular need to do it (an option for this could be really fine). I really hope this will be possible, with edges as an item.

2) selection system should remain the same. only the edges tab at the low part of lw should be added.

3) most important : even with edges, edge weighting and ngons support , Lw subpatches should be fast like they are currently.

No slow convert polygon to subpatches like in Maya.pls. :D


Blender is a good free app, but the modelling feeling it gives is not comparable to Lw's for now. on the other hand, i like the fact that everyone can code it and give his contribute, it surely will grow in a Linux way wich could be winner in not so much time. the coding i think is easier because it has been built into a more modern way and it uses Python as a code language and also light way (the base downloading is just some MB)

It will surely have a good life and it's free so that even a guy with not so much money will be able to make good 3D pieces.

jin choung
08-09-2004, 09:44 PM
hey herve,

i think you misunderstand me. i have no problem with free software. i love it... as i said.

i just think it's unreasonable to ask a shopkeeper to give away his goods if he's not inclined to do so from the gitgo.

but colkai,

as for what money they would invest in getting lw attention... errrm, free software's focus ends up being somewhat different right?

they don't make money from sales so there isn't that much of a push.

and i would argue that the very fact that it is free is a tremendously compelling p.r. device.

not disagreeing with your point but with the specifics of your argument.

pcg,

that's a great idea... but everyone who entered into development of lw by means of this kind of distributed endeavor would have to basically sign away any right they had to this code and say that it belongs entoto to newtek.

i think that would sour a great deal of people... it's one thing if NOBODY made money on it... but if they start raking it in hand over fist because of something you did and you didn't get a dime....

i think that's the moment that pure altruism, generosity of spirit and basic geekery goes south.


jin

Karmacop
08-09-2004, 11:37 PM
Jin, you're looking at the shopkeeper thign the wrong way. The shopkeeper gives you goods in return for money. The gpl is very similar, and basically says "you can use the code, in return that you help improve it". There's other licences that let code be put into commercial apps, such as bsd and lgpl, but the point of the gpl is not to keep information secret.

I know Lightwave is already a big app and would only be taking part of the code so it'd be unfair to gpl all of lightwave, but that's the way the licence works, and if you want it to work differently then just make your own ;)

jin choung
08-10-2004, 12:11 AM
howdy karmacop,

errr. actually, can you clarify what you think i mean by the shopkeeper thing?

i'm using the shopkeeper as a metaphor for the for profit capitalist - newtek, etc. and what i thought i was saying simply is that you just can't go around asking people to give you stuff for free.

and yeah, i had no inkling of a notion that the gpl was about secrecy... it is 'open source' after all.

but i was saying that if newtek was NOT gpl but decided to let others' participate in the development (as pcg was proposing)... the only way this would fly is if newtek forced the 'volunteer developers' to sign away their contributions to them - because they're still a commercial, private property.

jin

colkai
08-10-2004, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
Did U really pay for your last Honda bike ?? How could U ? NNnnnoooo
Blasphemy! - how dare you deride the wonder that is Honda! :p
I love my CB750, wanted one since I was a kid some (ahem..cough) years ago.
Don't forget i'm in the UK, so don't have the stigma of not owning a H.D. ;) (GD&R)

Hervé
08-10-2004, 02:14 AM
I love Honda, my first ever Honda back then was a moped... amigo Honda... remember...?:p ;) :D

cheers Colkai;)

Karmacop
08-10-2004, 04:07 AM
Oh .. sorry Jin, I took it the wrong way, I thought you were implying that Blender should let their code be used in commercial products ... sorry :( I read what I thought you wrote, not what you actually wrote :p

Yep, that's the only way Newtek would let "outsiders" help develop it. But it'll never happen because, right or wrong, companies believe they need to keep their source closed to make profit, and don't want others to use their code.

siproductions
08-10-2004, 07:10 AM
I got to play around in blender last night and I have to say that the edge stuff is pretty neat. I had never gotten to play with edge weighting before, but now I understand why we need this in LW. It's great.

Brett H.
08-10-2004, 12:35 PM
Aside from features, have you seen the interface? This is free software? It's beginning to look like XSI, very customizable, with separate windows that can be docked (some of the screenshots look surprisingly like Matt's Vx project).

It seems free and open-source are really hitting their stride now, Open Office.org is a true MSOffice killer, Mozilla Firefox is gaining ground (I'm typing this in it), Mozilla Thunderbird is a full-fledged Outlook (express) competitor. May be time to give Blender a try. I used it years ago, but the interface really turned me off. This new interface just looks really competitive.

Hervé
08-10-2004, 11:04 PM
Matt, I think they dont consider Blender as a competitor, coz it's free and not commercial + LW is still mucho better in many areas....

BTW, I'd love a nice splash image when I open LW....:D

Jalle
08-11-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Hervé

BTW, I'd love a nice splash image when I open LW....:D

Spare me, no splash image !!!

/Jalle

Hervé
08-11-2004, 12:55 AM
please just a small tiny one, with some infos of version... your name....

a tiny that loads super fast....:D :cool:

mattclary
08-11-2004, 08:33 AM
That sucks, Colkai, hope everything goes ok for you. We just had a baby, so $500 for software is something I can no longer do on a whim. :(

Lightwolf
08-11-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
That sucks, Colkai, hope everything goes ok for you. We just had a baby, so $500 for software is something I can no longer do on a whim. :(
*cynism on* Wait for a couple of years, and then send the kid to work for you ;) *cynism off*

...he he, just kidding, could not resist.

Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
08-11-2004, 09:47 AM
I'll sell the little bugger to science, she should bring a pretty penny! ;) Thank god for insurance, saw the statement, and all told, she would have cost $17k! :eek: Although she is worth every penny. :cool:

Hervé
08-11-2004, 09:59 AM
.... every penny... and mucho mucho more...!

Cheers Mike...

Hehe, just got my friend Sal, he was at siggraph yesterday, and got me a rare nice NT shirt.... how's that... ?? :D :D :D

Chuck
08-11-2004, 10:36 AM
We have the following policy posted at the top of each section (exact wording may vary in some sections):


Moderation Notice

The NewTek Forums are not a free speech zone, they are for professional and civil discourse regarding NewTek products by NewTek users. Those who are unable to stick to topic or unable to maintain civil conversation with others will have their accounts removed.

Promotional messages and material for competing products will be removed. The user accounts of those who demonstrably have no purpose on the NewTek forums other than to promote competing products will also be removed.


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Our competitors certainly have no right to expect that we should allow promotion of their products to our users in our forums (free advertising in a venue that we pay to provide), and those who participate here should most certainly be able to understand that we will not allow them to post messages promoting competing products. We tolerate feature comparison discussions to let users be able to clarify feature requests - but even within that area, posts that clearly intend only to promote competing products are removed.

Yes, Blender is freeware and as such we do not consider it a competing product at this time, so we have left this discussion in place, and are following it - we have a lot in mind for future development and the user discussion of how features are presented is food for thought. However, those messages that were interjected with clearly no other intent but to promote current and upcoming competing products were an inappropriate addition to the discussion and have been removed.

colkai
08-11-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Our competitors certainly have no right to expect that we should allow promotion of their products to our users in our forums

**** Skippy! :)


Yes, Blender is freeware and as such we do not consider it a competing product at this time, so we have left this discussion in place, and are following it - we have a lot in mind for future development and the user discussion of how features are presented is food for thought.

That's real cool Chuck, I'm sure there are still enough of us LW fans who want the features but don't need the hyperbole that comes with some of these discussions, if ya catch my drift? ;)


no other intent but to promote current and upcoming competing products were an inappropriate

..and yet it's strange, everywhere there is a Lightwave forum, folks seem so keen to post all about those same competing products, (see, I never named 'em :P ).

Seriously though, let's persue what Chuck mentioned, about the sort of things you see in blender and how they could be implemented. There are some smart folks out there with serious maths/coding chops and I for one would love to see these things developed.