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F1Racer
08-05-2004, 02:45 AM
My client told me yesterday that my deadline was today.
Well this is how it is in this world isnt it, so I had to get my render started.

I knew it was going to be a long render but I know I would make it in time.

1 single frame for a game boxcover.

17hr and 11mins later LW had finished.


But NO RENDER !!!!!


Now if its my fault I will accept it and take full responsibility but if its not then something needs sorting because this is a serious bug and its not the first time its happened.

I have screenshots to back up what I did so here goes...

As the render would finish overnight I didnt want to have the image displayed at the end, just saved.

So I selected the Save RGB option and told it to save a TGA file to my desktop.
For extra safety I wanted the Alpha image saved there too. to I ticked on Save Alpha and provided an image name.

So both images should be saved to C:\documents and settings\..... etc etc.

Saving to desktop has failed once befoe but I thought it might have been a one off. Seems not !!:mad:

When the render finished my HDD light flash frantically for a few moments then the finished dialog popped up with the render time etc.
No image, just a dialog.

Yet there was no image on my desktop either !. I desperately searched my HDD for it. Nothing !!

Now I cant make my deadline, Ive lost 17hrs and I dread to think what my client will say.

SO Im in a foul mood and I would really appreciate someone telling me why LW8 in all its glory is not saving files on its own !

Ive done small test images with the filepath set to C:\ and image names like gt1.tga

when the render is done I get the image on screen but no saved files.

Please someone tell me why !!

Is it me or is it LW or what ??

If my client can wait another day I have to tie my computer up for another 17hrs and I cant do that if LW cant do its job properly.

Im in serious need of help here.

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 03:03 AM
Well Ive ran further tests in LW8 and LW7.5c

no images are being saved no matter what I call the image or what path I save to.

this is in the SaveRGB and Save Alpha options.


why are they not saving to HDD ???
Isnt that what its there for ? So that images are autosaved when complete ?

So why is mine not doing it ?

I tick on Save RGB, I direct it to the root of one of my drives, I select a nice small filename and tell it to save as LW_BMP24.

It renders, it shows me the final image and saves nothing !
Why ??

Is it me doing something wrong ?
I mean Ive only been with Lightwave since version 3.0 so forgive me if I appear new to all of this.




UPDATE:
Well well, it seems that the saveRGB and saveAlpha options only work if I pick the frame I want and hit F10 to render instead of F9.
Is this true ? Is this really how the logic has been applied ?

It will only save a single frame at the end of a render if you select that frame as if its a 1 frame animation ?
Tell me thats not so. Surely not.

Due to motion blur I am rendering frame 30 of a 60 frame anim.
Seems with F9 rendering frame 30 doesnt allow LW to save it using the SaveRGB funtion.

Yet, if I select my start and end frames to 30 and hit F10, then it will save.

Who decided this and why ?

Still doesnt explain why at the end of 17hrs rendering an image of 6448x5152, I didnt get to see the render and only the Finished dialog.
Oh and I have 2Gb of RAM just for the record.


Excuse me if I sound off-ish but you can imagine my rage because of this.

Mylenium
08-05-2004, 03:44 AM
Well, if you really have been using LW since v3 you have either lived on a very distant planet or never have touched the manual again since you started (or is this a typo and you mean 8?). Sorry to be so blunt, but in this case you have to blame yourself all the way. While there are certain issues with rendering large resolution, ever since v4 (that's when I started so I can vouch for this) there has been a difference in F9 and F10 and that is explained well enough in the manual. As for anything else - some looking around in this forum would have revealed that such large images won't be displayed in the render viewer due to simple RAM issues and no, unlike other programs LW never writes temporary image files to disk, it always does everything in the RAM. The HDD activity might be simple swapping by Windows. Also check if all your plugins are added properly. On a side note, it is unwise to use the use the root directory for saving files - it is not very orderly and can also show issues due to possible user rights and prohibitions.

Mylenium

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 04:00 AM
Mylenium,

I have not been on another planet but I also dont spend my life with LW and just make the odd render for pleasure and now and again for clients.

Ive not really had the need to use this particular function too much.

I have been told since that indeed the SaveRGB function only works with F10.
I dont pretend to understand the logic behind it but it was clearly my fault for not reading the manual properly.

So yes you can be blunt with me as I clearly deserve it for being a pathetic idiot and not understanding why SaveRGB cant work with F9.

I will re-render again and chalk it up to a hard lesson learned.

hrgiger
08-05-2004, 04:05 AM
I have to agree with Mylenium, if you've been using Lightwave since version 3 then you must never have touched your manual or talked to another Lightwave user at all. You've never saved a render after all these years and discovered the difference between F9 and F10? I just have to offer a big "come on, get serious..." at this point.
I'm incredulous that you could even attempt to lay blame to the software at this point and not at your own feet where it belongs. V3? Come on....

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 04:14 AM
yes yes ok bring it on.

Im in the gallows so you can all throw tomatoes at me now.


Theres 2 factors to this (not that it will matter).

Firstly, despite using LW since the Amiga days, I dont use it every day and its not a career for me. Back then I used it once in a blue moon.
Lately since 6.5 Ive used it more but as I said, Ive never had the call to combine F9 and SaveRGB before so its pretty much the first time its come up.

I didnt find in the manual that F9 and SaveRGB couldnt be used together nor any reasons why not.

But it seems I messed up and its something I should have known but didnt and now I must take the heat.


Quite why Save RGB and F9 cant work together will likely always be a mystery but now I know and Ive learned the hard way.
I ony blame I lay with the software is that I dont understand why we cant have a working Save RGB with F9.
I think if the option is ticked it should work.

However, it doesnt as the option was there I used it for this occasion, to my loss.

I didnt exclude myself from blame as I said in my first post.

So bring your friends, show them this thread and have a good laugh at my expense.
I guess I deserve it for daring to question anything on the LW interface.

ingo
08-05-2004, 04:34 AM
Well youre not the only one who learned it the hard way; and no, there is no logic behind it. Since that happened to me i always look twice before i start a final render in LW, and as long as i have enough memory i let LW display the image in imageviewer too, just in case.

Its often talked about the terrible interface of LW which has nothing to do with any OS. I'm still in hope that one day someone with a sense for interface design works for Newtek and the program behaves like any other program on your OS ..............

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 04:45 AM
Yes agreed.

Although it is essentially my fauly and I accept that, I do blame the LW interface for offering me options that arent going to work.

WHy allow me to tick Save RGB and provide a filename if its not going to do it when I press F9 ?

Why should F9 not have that function as well as F10 ?

Surely if I want to save an image automatically I should be able to do that without setting up an animation that renders from frame 30 to frame 30. :rolleyes:


Picture it. you hit F9 and tick Save RGB also.
You render finishes at 3:00am. You get a power cut at 4:00am.
You wake up and as lightwave stands now, you lose your work.
but if saveRGB had worked, your image would be waiting for you on your HDD when you switch on.

But no, I must instead set up a 1 frame animation if I want to have this function.
Doesnt make sense to me but this is the way it is and I guess I should have known even though I rarely if ever use this function.
I just expected it to work when I did want it.

Never mind.

hrgiger
08-05-2004, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by F1Racer
Although it is essentially my fauly and I accept that, I do blame the LW interface for offering me options that arent going to work.

WHy allow me to tick Save RGB and provide a filename if its not going to do it when I press F9 ?

Why should F9 not have that function as well as F10 ?



Well, I can tick on Enable IK but unless I have setup IK on my character rig, it's not going to do me much good. But I wouldn't blame the interface for that. It's the same reason ticking on Save RGB won't do you any good if you press F9. Now using F9 would be fine if you have your image viewer enabled because you would be able to save the file from there. You don't have to specify from frame 30 to frame 30 :rolleyes: , just enable your image viewer in the rendering options panel and go ahead and F9 to your hearts content.

My intent wasn't to throw tomatoes at you but really, I just had to question how you could be using LW since the Amiga days, even if you use it rarely or for a career, without finding out in all that time how to save a file. I mean, that's the most basic thing you can do in Lightwave or any 3D software.

UnCommonGrafx
08-05-2004, 07:28 AM
That's why they have the term "Straw man" for debate: an easy argument for one to win.

That you 'accept blame' but 'blame the interface' is is where the logic is lost. What you have written makes absolutely no sense. To not know what f11 does is forgiveable; to post that the 'logic of the interface' is wrong thereafter is ... hard for me to read with sincerity.
All of the smart arse juices in me are flowing at the moment but I shall resist. :p I will say that you might take a bit of time to review the manual.

You ask those questions like they are serious...Are they? :confused: Your visualization has the premise: I am a beginner, don't want to be bothered with the manual so change it for me.

Most round these parts will assist you in not believing what you've typed as best they can in. :D Most will say rtfm. I mean, it's inert, for gosh sakes...



Originally posted by F1Racer
Yes agreed.

Although it is essentially my fauly and I accept that, I do blame the LW interface for offering me options that arent going to work.

WHy allow me to tick Save RGB and provide a filename if its not going to do it when I press F9 ?

Why should F9 not have that function as well as F10 ?

Surely if I want to save an image automatically I should be able to do that without setting up an animation that renders from frame 30 to frame 30. :rolleyes:


Picture it. you hit F9 and tick Save RGB also.
You render finishes at 3:00am. You get a power cut at 4:00am.
You wake up and as lightwave stands now, you lose your work.
but if saveRGB had worked, your image would be waiting for you on your HDD when you switch on.

But no, I must instead set up a 1 frame animation if I want to have this function.
Doesnt make sense to me but this is the way it is and I guess I should have known even though I rarely if ever use this function.
I just expected it to work when I did want it.

Never mind.

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Now using F9 would be fine if you have your image viewer enabled because you would be able to save the file from there. You don't have to specify from frame 30 to frame 30 :rolleyes: , just enable your image viewer in the rendering options panel and go ahead and F9 to your hearts content.


The image viewer was enabled but it appears the the image was so large that when it finished rendering it did not display it.
A known thing with Lightwave Im lead to believe.

Of course I know how to save images. But Ive always done it from the File Viewer. But for big renders that render overnight this isnt always the best way. I want to leave it unattended then have it save when its done. Maybe I am somewhere else and want to access the file via ftp when its finished.
Cant do that if its sitting lookin pretty in the file viewer can I ?


What I want to know is why can't they enable the Save RGB to work with F9 ? Whats so wrong with that ?

For normal F9 usage you just dont tick it.
But it would be nice to know that if you wanted to tick it that it would work. Just because LW has never done this doesnt make it right.
Its my fault for not realising that LW didnt do that but the interface is set in such a way that it has you believing that it will.
And forget the manual, you wouldnt expect you`d need a manual for something that should be straightforward.
Seems I only need the manual be cause of the fact that it isnt straightforward and logical at all.

hrgiger
08-05-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by F1Racer
And forget the manual, you wouldnt expect you`d need a manual for something that should be straightforward.
Seems I only need the manual be cause of the fact that it isnt straightforward and logical at all.

You wouldn't expect maybe but one of the reasons they write manuals is so you don't have to just assume something, the information is there for you to look up.
The manuals are generally written assuming that you know nothing about the software.
Turns out, they'd be right in this case.

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 11:46 AM
Yes alright hrgiger, enough of the smart arse comments.

I make a mistake by not knowing one detail that I should have done and suddenly I dont know anything about Lightwave.

Typical elitist attitude to milk the situation at my expense.

:rolleyes:

hrgiger
08-05-2004, 12:01 PM
Ok I'm a smartass guilty as charged.

However, some of us just don't like the attitude of some people around here blaming the software everytime they do something wrong. It's not just you.

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 12:20 PM
Well no software is perfect.

And I dont blame it every time, mainly if it crashes on me.
Im not actually blaming the software directly, its just my idea of what is logical doesnt tie-in with LWs interface.
Im just kinda surprised that this particular option doesnt work in a certain circumstance and Im baffled as to why.
Its just not making a lot of sense to me but regardless of that, its a mistake I will not repeat.

ingo
08-05-2004, 01:32 PM
Well to go the logical way : You go into the render menu and choose render options. There you choose under output files the path where to save your rendering. Then you choose either "render current frame", "render scene" or "render selected objects".
Of course its nonsense that the "save RGB" doesn't work for some of the render methods, and of course you can't grey out the "save RGB" because you choose how to render after you have choosen the option to save the file.
IMHO LW has to open the render option when you choose one of the three render methods, that is the normal way other programs work. But otherwise its easier to blame the users......

hrgiger
08-05-2004, 02:13 PM
What is wrong with having a render button that does not save the render? Don't you ever have to do a preview render? I probably do a few hundred at least partial renders on any project I work on while I'm modeling and texturing and while animating. I sure don't want those renders saved taking up space. Of course, now that I have FPrime, there's not much need for the F9 key anymore (or F10 for that matter) unless I'm using volumetrics or shaders.
Funny enough but when you hit the FPrime render button (and FPrime is a pay on F9), no file is saved until you go under the Fprime image viewer and save the file. At least with the preview renderer, which is what F9 really is anyway.

F1Racer
08-05-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
What is wrong with having a render button that does not save the render? Don't you ever have to do a preview render? I probably do a few hundred at least partial renders on any project I work on while I'm modeling and texturing and while animating. I sure don't want those renders saved taking up space.


erm.. but you dont need to.
the save RGB is off by default remember ?

so in an ideal world, all your F9's would indeed be preview renders (with the option to save in the viewer), just as they are now, UNLESS you clicked the SaveRGB button and gave a filename, then it could autosave it as it should.
Seems logical to me.

toby
08-05-2004, 09:42 PM
So let's say LW works the way you'd like it to and you've just rendered a 17 hour image with F9 and it's been saved to disk for you. You look at it, and think it would look better with a little more light - you tweak a light, change your camera to lo-res to do a faster test render, hit F9... and your 17 hour render is overwritten by a smalll, jagged 17 second render - Destroyed!

Besides this, LW came from the world of TV, not print, and as such F9 wasn't intended for final renders. If you think about what it was intended for it might help you understand and even predict it's behaviour ~

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 01:19 AM
toby,

I see what you're trying to say but that example isnt a good one.
Firstly I dont get into a 17hr render if I think the light isnt good.
Thats what test renders are for. Thats also what I use FPrime for.
When I commit to a 17hr render its because Im happy with it.
But... lets go with it... firstly if F9 was going to overwrite the last image, I`d simply rename the previous one beforehand. Or they build in an incremental save facility which likely wouldnt be necessary as if you know F9 is gonna save then you would be aware that the previous image would be overwritten.

Another thing would be that if I was to do a smaller render afterwards to adjust lighting, I would temporarily take the Save RGB option off so it didnt save those small renders.

riki
08-06-2004, 02:07 AM
If your doing a print resolution render for a client and have a tight deadline, and don't want to tie your machine up for an extended period, you might want to consider using a service like Respower (http://www.respower.com).

You can render the image out in segments over a number of terminals, proof each segement as they come through and automatically stitch them back together in flx format at the end. The cost is minimal, you can pass it on to your client. I personally wouldn't trust my machine to handle a large job.

UnCommonGrafx
08-06-2004, 07:25 AM
hehe



What software does anyone have that changes overnight to fit their logic and expectation.

F1Racer, you truly are making no sense.

caesar
08-06-2004, 07:45 AM
F1, I always ALWAYS test render before a final render, even when Im sure that all setup is right, put a more little resolution and F10, just for test, or some frames in lowest res for animation...just few minutes of test would save hours and $$ !!!

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 08:13 AM
UnCommonGfx,
Software changing overnight to meet expectation and logic ?
Who is it, did you say, that wasnt making sense ? :rolleyes:

caeser,
I did many many test shots at low res and in FPrime.
but I didnt come to the SaveRGB bit until I set up the final. I just mistakenly assumed it was going to work.
I mean why wouldnt it ? But yet it doesnt.

riki,
Thanks for that link, I will definately check that out . It sounds interesting.








If people dont like me criticising the software then thats just too bad. No software is perfect and its my opinion that this issue with Save RGB not working with F9 doesnt make sense. Its as simple as that.
Doesnt matter if the manual says it will or it wont. It SHOULD.
Thats my opinion and Im sticking with it because I cant think of any reason why it was programmed not to work.
As it can be ticked on or off as you want it, theres no reason to assume that ticking it on will have no effect as theres no clear reason why it wouldnt.
I dont care how long LW has been like this either.
If someone can give me a valid and logical reason why the Save RGB function should not be permiited to work when you press F9 to render a single frame, then please do so.
It doesnt work now and I assume Newtek have their reasons for it. I would like to know what that is.
Why must we set up a 1 frame animation and press F10 to have an autosaving frame, when F9 was designed for single frames ?

Lightwolf
08-06-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by F1Racer

I dont care how long LW has been like this either.
If someone can give me a valid and logical reason why the Save RGB function should not be permiited to work when you press F9 to render a single frame, then please do so.
It doesnt work now and I assume Newtek have their reasons for it. I would like to know what that is.
Why must we set up a 1 frame animation and press F10 to have an autosaving frame, when F9 was designed for single frames ?
Because F9 is designed for preview renders, not single frames. You also get different warnings if you press F9 and F10, for example, try and F10 without having SaveRGB checked.
It is basically a way to keep you from accidentally save over final rendered frames when you want to check different settings in an animation. I don't know how often I would have accidentally trashed finished frames if F9 would actually save out images.
Then again, I'm usedto eat, but I find it rather comforting if it works this way.
May be a switch to save frames on F9's would help here...

Cheers,
Mike

UnCommonGrafx
08-06-2004, 08:52 AM
I know. That's the same understanding I have of what you've posted.

And you have even more of such nonsense.

I'll give you a reason: because the programmers saw a need to separate test moments and renderings on a single frame as opposed to forcing you to have to deal with a sequence or setting up said sequence.
It's a convenience for texturing, motion blur, dof, etc.

Although I hear where you are coming from, you really make no sense. The program works this way and has for nearly 20 years.
The logic is quite sound. And now that I'm aware that you have FPrime, your point is lost even moreso: it follows the exact same paradigm.

Originally posted by F1Racer
UnCommonGfx,
Software changing overnight to meet expectation and logic ?
Who is it, did you say, that wasnt making sense ? :rolleyes:

Doesnt matter if the manual says it will or it wont. It SHOULD.
Thats my opinion and Im sticking with it because I cant think of any reason why it was programmed not to work.

Lightwolf
08-06-2004, 09:13 AM
Well, I think the basic point is: If you primarily do animations, this "feature" is a blessing, because it prevents you from destroying hard work.

If you only do stills, it surely can be a pain.

Then again, this way you're forced to consiously activate a final render to finish off your project.

Cheers,
Mike

bloontz
08-06-2004, 09:53 AM
I've read the manual for LW7 and I really don't recall this being in there. I did a search of F9 in the LW7 pdf and found nothing related to this topic. There really should be a warning or at least a note in the render section explaining this behavior so people don't make false assumptions that cost them valuable time. There should be no ambiguity when it comes to saving files. Possibly a warning (that can be disabled) should pop up when Save RGB is on and F9 is used. In a piece of software as complex as LW there should be as little ambiguity as possible.

hunter
08-06-2004, 10:17 AM
From the manual
F9 = render Frame
F10 = render Scene

I'm sorry F1, can I call you F1? :) But I have to agree with the others. I find it quite handy that I can test the current frame by pressing F9. I shouldn't have to open the render panel and check or uncheck something everytime I do a test render. I simply set all my outputs when I'm getting close to the final, continue using F9 to test and tweek then, when I'm satisfied, hit F10. To me it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly logical. Personally I'd rather not waste my time opening and closing panels checking and unchecking endless little tick boxes, or jumping through a myriad of hoops like other software makes you do. I'd rather just press one of two buttons. At least a 50/50 chance of getting it right, and if I read the manual, I mean really read it not just look for something when I'm having an issue, I have a 100% chance of hitting the correct button.

;)

bloontz
08-06-2004, 10:42 AM
Where in the manual is this discussed? I'm not saying it should be changed, just that it should be explained properly in the manual. Saying F9 = render Frame and F10 = render Scene is ambiguous. Sure it is obvious if you understand how it works. Perhaps there should be a paragraph explaining that F9 is for preview renders and why it is setup the way it is.

hunter
08-06-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by bloontz
Where in the manual is this discussed? I'm not saying it should be changed, just that it should be explained properly in the manual. Saying F9 = render Frame and F10 = render Scene is ambiguous. Sure it is obvious if you understand how it works. Perhaps there should be a paragraph explaining that F9 is for preview renders and why it is setup the way it is.

Chapter 16 in the LW7 manual is entirely devoted to rendering options, and a similar section in the LW8 help file. I can see how it may be a little ambiguous, but even an idiot like me figured it out so I have little sympathy for those that can't. I do however agree that a note should be put in about very highres images not working in the image viewer if that is the case.

hrgiger
08-06-2004, 12:27 PM
You know. let's get down to what this is really about. Anyone who has been using LW since v3, no matter how rarely they used it, should have figured out by now that hitting F9 does not automatically generate a file whether you have save RGB checked or not. Version 3 came out in 1993 and someone is now just complaining about the F9 key after 10-11 years?
A lot of things could stand improvement in Lightwave in both features and interface and some things yes, are ambiguous or confusing. HOWEVER: Setting up a 17 hour render on a deadline without understanding how to save a file in the first place is unexcusable, no wait, let me put that in bold face and capital letters because it sounds important, UNEXCUSABLE and a person has no place to criticise the interface at that point for their own misunderstanding. I'll grant you that a beginner would look at the interface and think if they check RGB save and hit F9 that it would save the file somewhere, but I'm not willing to grant you not knowing the software well enough to save a file if you using it as a professional. And I don't think a client will give a crap about you moaning about the weakness of the interface of whatever software you are using.

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 12:27 PM
Well you guys are making some valid points.

I think the difference has been that you guys have seen F9 as a 'test render' button, whereas I, who do mainly single frame renders, use it for everything that isnt an animation.
Test renders and final renders.

I just save it from the viewer options when its done.
So no point for me to state a particular frame then press F10.
So when I thought 'Hmmm this render will take a while, I`ll hit on Save RGB and give it a filename so that it will autosave it when its done. Anything happens to the computer after that if Im not around, its saved the image and I`ll be ok.'

Well the viewer didnt display the image and nor did it save it and I was quite livid as you can imagine after 17hrs.

I guess Im still cheesed off about it.


UnCommonGfx,
How are you factoring FPrime into this ?
I dont understand what thats got to do with the Save RGB function.
I use FPrime for quick test shots or when Im moving lights or whatever around.
Its never my final renderer and certainly not for saving an image thats 6500 pixels by 5200 pixels.



As for not wanting to keep going back to the options to turn Save RGB on and off when you are rendering with F9, thats a valid point. It would be a pain.
But surely cured with a better interface or a button on the side menu.




Anyway the client got their render in the end and all is good.
In the process I learned a lesson the hard way and still cannot find in chapter 16 (16.16 isnt it ?) where the manual tells you it wont autosave your work if you press F9 with Save RGB selected.


Well its been an experience I dont want to repeat (and I won't :) )
I would normally be banging my head against a wall for what appears to be an elementary mistake on my part, but not this time.
Despite not having checked the manual on this feature, it does look or appear straightforward enough on the interface to save an image and you wouldnt think you`d need to check the manual for such a thing.
But clearly Newtek has limitations on the F9 key which arent obvious so baring that in mind, I wont be taking any feature in LW for granted any more in case theres a twist in the tale again.




Its kinda like not reading the manual when you buy a TV because you already know what the buttons do :)

Lightwolf
08-06-2004, 12:34 PM
Hi F1,
why don't you just set start and end frame to 1 in a new scene, turn on SaveRGB and do all your test renders with F10? It would surely be the easiest option for the way you work, and would only require one extra step, probably less than any other ui option would take ;)
You set it once per scene, and off you go.
Heck, one could even write a little LScript and put it on F9, which sets start and end frame to the current frame and does an F10 ;)

Cheers,
Mike

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
You know. let's get down to what this is really about. Anyone who has been using LW since v3, no matter how rarely they used it, should have figured out by now that hitting F9 does not automatically generate a file whether you have save RGB checked or not. Version 3 came out in 1993 and someone is now just complaining about the F9 key after 10-11 years?

Jeez I wish I hadn't mentioned that now.
I'm sure you have the idea that I sat down at my computer every night using Lightwave since version 3 came out.
I used LW casually as a beginner on the Amiga, but didn't really do much more on it other than create very simple objects.

I wasn't into 3D I never bothered too much with it either. I just tinkered around once in a blue moon.
It wasn't until much later that I got into it more and even now I'm not a devout user. It's still only a hobby and I'm not at the point where I know every single nook and cranny of the software.
I can't rig a character because Ive not done characther anim before, I cant model high resolution cars like Lewis et al does because I've not got into things like that before (until recently that is).
So yes, admittedly after all these years I should know more than I do but I don't because Ive never been that far into things and it just so happens that the Save RGB button is something I've used maybe a handful of times.
So forgive me for not being a know-all and not realising about that one particular aspect.
Just don't get it into your head that I've been an avid Lightwave junkie for the past 10 years.





. HOWEVER: Setting up a 17 hour render on a deadline without understanding how to save a file in the first place is unexcusable, no wait, let me put that in bold face and capital letters because it sounds important, UNEXCUSABLE

I think you mean INEXCUSABLE.
All these years with the English language and you still cant use it right.
Try reading the manual :D
(Sorry, couldnt resist)

Your wording is very loose here.
Check my website. How do you think I got my renders there ? By taking screenshots with Printscreen when the render was displayed ???
Saving a file is the easy bit.
All my saving has been done with the file viewer. I dont do 17hr renders every day.
A way to AUTOSAVE is easy too.
You just tick on Save RGB, provide a filename and a naming convention if you wish and go for it......oh no wait.... it wont work that way will it ?
You have to tell Lightwave that your still render is actually part of a 1 frame animation (which technically doesn't make it an animation) before it will save it for you.
THATs the quirk of LW I hadn't realised.
Had I used the Save RGB funtion with F9 10 years ago I would have realised 10 years ago.
But as amazing as it may sound I've never needed to until the other day.



And I don't think a client will give a crap about you moaning about the weakness of the interface of whatever software you are using.

Well thats all well and good then isn't it, because unlike your assumption, I didn't moan to the client about the weakness of the interface.
I simply told him I screwed up and that there will be a delay.
He was fine with it. OK ?

Jeez man, anyone would think you designed the interface :rolleyes::

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
Hi F1,
why don't you just set start and end frame to 1 in a new scene, turn on SaveRGB and do all your test renders with F10?
Cheers,
Mike


Hi Lightwolf,

Its not really a question of test renders.
I do 90% of those in FPrime (getting my moneys worth :) ) and the odd one with F9.

But the problem arose by me doing my final render in F9 because thats the way Ive always done it.
Ive always saved the file after its done with the viewer options.
So basically when it came to this big render I just did it the same way but I clicked on the Save RGB option so that it could save it when it was done (as I`d be asleep).
Not having combined F9 and Save RGB before I just assumed, based on the fact that Save RGB is to output your images to the HDD when done., that it would work after the F9 render was done.
That was my mistake. Thats all there is to it. I still dont totally see why it has been made not to work, but there have been some valid points here made by the majority of those that have replied such as yourself as to why and I can accept them I guess.

But thanks for the tip anyway :)

hrgiger
08-06-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by F1Racer
I simply told him I screwed up and that there will be a delay.


Well, at least you got that part right.

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Well, at least you got that part right.

Yes and Im honest enough to admit it too and I have no problems doing so.


As for you, youre a nasty piece of work hrgiger.

Still, whatever gets it up for you.

hunter
08-06-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by F1Racer
I think you mean INEXCUSABLE

LMAO. Good one. :p

I also checked on a render @ 6500x5200 with F9 and no image opened in the viewer. Now THAT NEEDS to documented and you have a serious right to p**sed off.

hrgiger
08-06-2004, 04:06 PM
Ok, I think it's time to take a step back. My apologies for being a little rough on you but I get irritated when I see people blaming the software (and believe me, I know the software has it's faults, lots of them) when it is them who could have prevented the whole mess.
Let me give credit where credit is due though.

I also have checked a render at 6500x5200 and the image viewer did not come up once the render was finished. Perhaps had I more RAM, it might of but I don't.

I looked through the manual and it does not mention a notable difference between using F9 and F10 as far as saving files, only that F9 is for the current frame and F10 is for Sequences. I agree they should amend that part of the manual.

I guess my advice is that if you're going to use Lightwave for client work, you should perhaps take the time to know it a little better. Your client may have been understanding this time but they're probably an exception rather then the rule.

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 04:26 PM
hrgiger,

I appreciate your last response there. Im glad that this didnt boil over too much.

Thanks you two for taking the time to test those big renders.
Did you do it with simple scenes and how much RAM do you have ?

Thing is I have 2Gb of RAM and I asked LW's camera settings to set its Segment Memory limit at 768Mb.
It refused saying not enough memory.
It then refused 512Mb, then 384Mb (which is my default setting) and I had to make to with 256Mb which made 5 segments.

This was after a fresh reboot and me closing all the open programs and tasks that I could.

Unless the segment limit works different to what I think it does, I really expected to be able to set it to more than 256Mb.
Still, maybe thats normal for a render this size.

But thats all another issue :)
Either way, the image didnt display here with 2Gb RAM and I dont think I can cram any more onto my board, but I wonder if it will make any difference anyway.

Im going to do a little swotting up on the manual regarding these render settings and this segment memory limit, just to get myself clear on it.

I guess one good thing has come out of it. I`ll never make that mistake again.
(At least not that particular one :) )

UnCommonGrafx
08-06-2004, 04:35 PM
Chuckle,
I factored it in as it is the replacement for, and works the same as, the f9/f10 combo: see this one now( f9), save a bunch for later (f10).
As I said when you posted, most 'round here won't let you sit with what you had expressed. Your frustrations not withstanding, that's how it works; love it or not. But saying that it shouldn't be still won't get the job done. You have to work with how it's been designed.

Glad to see you've sorted it out and you got the customer what they wanted.

Originally posted by F1Racer


UnCommonGfx,
How are you factoring FPrime into this ?
I dont understand what thats got to do with the Save RGB function.
I use FPrime for quick test shots or when Im moving lights or whatever around.
Its never my final renderer and certainly not for saving an image thats 6500 pixels by 5200 pixels.

hrgiger
08-06-2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by F1Racer
I appreciate your last response there. Im glad that this didnt boil over too much.

Thanks you two for taking the time to test those big renders.
Did you do it with simple scenes and how much RAM do you have ?



I did it with the simplest scene you can imagine. One camera, one light. I just opened up Lightwave, changed the resolution to 6500x5200, enabled the image viewer, and hit F9. Took about 7 minutes to render an empty scene and no image viewer. I only have 512MB of RAM so I really had little hope of it opening I guess.

F1Racer
08-06-2004, 05:11 PM
7mins ? Mine took 6.4s

Opened up LW, changed camera to 6500x2500, hit F9.

A small image viewer window popped up for about half a second then vanished.

I though if I cant display an empty scene with 2Gb of RAM then maybe its down to other factors.

So... after a numerous test renders I have found the (or my ) limit for the Viewer.

I can render and view an image at 5910x5910.

If I try 5911x5911 or above, its a no show.
I dunno if thats a memory limit or a LW limit.

5911x5909 worked.
5911x5910 didnt.
6110x5810 didnt.

So I dunno how its working it out.
Any ideas ?

Can anyone else view a render at 5910x5910 but not 5911x5910 ?

toby
08-06-2004, 09:52 PM
As I recall, the memory requirement goes up exponentially as the resolution increases, and I don't remember the figures but I'm pretty sure LW requires more gigs than your computer can hold for an image that size - I remember some other print 3Ders having trouble ~

meatycheesyboy
08-07-2004, 01:04 AM
Hey guys, this may or may not help.

I opened up LW set the res to 6400 x 4800 with segment memory at 64 megs, it rendered in about 20 seconds, showed the image viewer briefly then disappeared. No luck. Next I changed the segment memory to 128 megs, hit F9 again and waited. It rendered much slower this time, about a minute, but once it was done, the image viewer popped up and stayed up. I was able to save a 6400x4800 image to disk from the image viewer.

Oh, and in case it helps, I'm on a Athlon 1000 with 768 megs of RAM.

rejdmast
08-07-2004, 02:20 AM
I also got it to save a 6400 by 4800 image (a single light)

It took 12 sec to render. Segment memory was set at 1GB.

John Mastrogiacomo
Spectra Video

hrgiger
08-07-2004, 12:36 PM
I have my sement memory set fairly low because I usually don't render out images that large. I'm guessing It took 7 mins on mine because it did it in either 6 or 7 segments. I have a 2.4 GHZ.

Aegis
08-07-2004, 02:27 PM
F1 Racer: are you using ImageViewer or ImageViewerFP to view the final render? ImageViewer displays a 6500 x 2500 image just fine on my 2Gb system but FP doesn't - Guess that 128-bit data chokes the RAM at such a large size...

F1Racer
08-07-2004, 06:51 PM
I use normal Imageviewer.

But my render image size was 6500x5200 not 2500 :)

kangonto
08-11-2004, 05:23 AM
A little extra tip:

For very large images PNG saver has proved to be a more efficient saver than (for example) TIFF or JPG.

Sometimes i have had error messages after a big and long render. Image savers takes an extra amount of memory after render. The only thing i know is that the problem dissapeared when using PNG saver.

zpix
08-12-2004, 02:22 AM
Hi there,

Just read the discussion and tried the render myself with a 1Gb mem and P4 3.3 machine. Set the segment memory to 64 MB, image viewer, show rendering in progress off and off you go, it works fine.

Good luck and grtzzzz

ZPIX:)

http://www.zpix.nl/downloads/6500x5200.JPG

Exception
08-12-2004, 10:48 AM
Yes but it doesnt have anything to render.

Most of the time with very large renders the Image viewer will fail, making some renders get lost.

In fact, although I feel that F1 should have known that F9 doesn't save I find it extremely annoying that it doesn't! I have been using LW since v4 (for real this time), and actually never render animations. But I do move around things, and move camera's for different viewpoints and so forth. I really don't like it that F9 renders the FRAME but doesn't save, and F10 renders the SCENE and DOES save. Why not have a button that renders the FRAME and DOES save?! I always have to go to the freaking panel en set start and end frame to the same thing and then press f10. If F9 could save it would spare me the effort of a hundred times a day changing those start and end frame settings.
This all because Image viewer is not reliable. It really isn't, even if it fails to display only once this would be too much.

So, F1, I see your logic. It might be in the manual, but a difference between Render Scene and Render Frame doesn't really say anything about saving or not. And I think it's stupid too. But don't expect it to change.

Mustang
08-14-2004, 04:41 AM
Hi guys, sorry to get into this a bit late but have read the thread and just had to have my say. Im a pretty new LW user mucked around with it for a while and only now getting right into it.
First of all you all sound like a bunch of woman at the wrong time of month, but very entertaining.
Ok my 2 cents

Take a look at the screen shot of the render status window on this thread (only a few replies before mine) and have a close look at the bottom right where it says Output files
Now load a scene and set your rgb files to where ever you want to save them
Hit F9 what doest it say next to out put files now???
Hit F10 what does it say next to output files now???

Now when you hit F9 and it said none wouldnt you worry on a huge render like you guys are talking about????

Just my 2 cents

PS i tried to render a 6500 by 5200 image and my dam machine locked so F1 if i have a render that size can i send it to you to render for me at least i know you wont lose it:D

anyway, this site rocks, Lightwave rocks and all going well you might see my name on Shrek 17

massmusic
08-24-2004, 07:38 PM
Just to be fair, F1racer's initial post did question if he were at fault. He admitently learned his lesson, so go easy fellow Lightwavers.

Now I truly have been using LW since...well let's just say before Windows (I'll trust you young bucks will do the math) and I have read some of the manuals and can honestly say that before this thread, I've never heard of using F10 or F11 for rendering. Well maybe I have but I am old and do forget. Anyway, I have only used F9 to preview samples of my work before I go final.

See, the way I saved my final rendered files to the HDD in the past and to this day for that matter is by going into the render options and set up panel where I physically click on save RGB/Alpha and or whatever. There I can decide which frame(s) I wish to save, click the render scene button and wait. This may seem like, old or slow for some of you short cut button pressing young whipper-snappers but it has always resulted in images saved for me. F1racer, I recommend you get into the habit of doing this. You'll never have a blank file to show for it! Unless you don't select the proper file(s) to render.

Also, I just discovered a new option in my considerably recent upgraded usage in LW--After a F9 rendered frame has finished, I can save the previewed image in an assortment of file formats! I know you guys aren't really excited about this but when coming to LW 8 from LW 4 you can see why I'm creaming my Depends on just this one new feature:D.

As for issues of large files not showing in the preview viewer, I've never has a problem but I've got Gigs of RAM. I sudgest you all do the same thing instead of spending all your money on M3Ps and Y-Boxes. Egh? What's that? MP3s & X-Boxes? What in tarnation are those:confused:?

UnCommonGrafx
08-24-2004, 08:01 PM
Oh, do, Please post often, MassMusic!