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durden
07-29-2004, 01:04 AM
darn program crashes when I am saving scenes and the scenes are no longer readable...now this really pi*ses me off....so I have to make copies of any file I open

I think the culprit is when I drag the file to the dock and load through there then I go to save and then it crashes...when I load through the lw interface all seems to work ok....man this program is buggy as heck...

I am getting really sick of this buggy application..so many darn work arounds my head is spinning...

time to look into a more stable future

Beamtracer
07-29-2004, 01:08 AM
It would be better if you let us know what hardware / software combination you're using.

I'm using LW7.5 with OSX 10.3.3 on a G5 and it's very stable. These days I'm a bit conservative when it comes to upgrading to new versions of software. I wait 'till it's proven before changing anything.

durden
07-29-2004, 01:17 AM
10.3.4

dual 1.2

1.12 gb sdram

lw8

look, yeah I understand about upgrades and all, but come on I can't upgrade till I know its good, it took them 2+ years to come out with lw 8 and I got to wait another 4-5 month, forget it, I'd rather go with a more stable software package, heck since were on the topic, when ever has lw been stable on the mac. I have been using it since 5.5 and its never been stable...

Triple G
07-29-2004, 01:29 AM
I'd definitely agree with you regarding pre-OSX Lightwave, but I don't know...I don't find Mac LW to be any more or less buggy than the PC version...and not too many days go by when I don't use one or the other (and often both). There are things you need to work around on either platform...yeah it can be a pain, but you learn what works consistently for you and stick to it. If the workarounds start inhibiting your productivity too much, then perhaps it's time to find another software and/or hardware solution, but remember that the grass is not necessarily always greener on the other side.

durden
07-29-2004, 01:46 AM
I didn't know that the pc version was as buggy as the mac ;)

the workarounds start inhibiting your productivity too much, then perhaps it's time to find another software and/or hardware solution, but remember that the grass is not necessarily always greener on the other side.

your absolutely right the grass isn't always greener good point...that is why I am trying out 2 different software packages...then I am going to decide, I don't care about price anymore, I am sick of the headaches, plus I work in the broadcast design industry...nobody uses lw anymore...I like lightwave but don't feel they are making any progress...in terms of the tools I need ex trailer, no cracking tools for hard fx. Also the after effects integration is just garbage, they don't even have camera export in rla. Simple things are non existent like creating a set of project folders for you to work in.. I mean come on wake up NT. I shouldn't have to make those its so simple...you get out what you put into it...It is so funny to NT puts on their website lightwave advances charachter animation...I mean who really believes that bs...LOL... this is turning to negative so I am gonna stop...best of luck to u I am sure I will be around in some capacity...its the only 3d package I know now so it will take some time before I can make the switch.

Triple G
07-29-2004, 01:55 AM
I totally hear you man...there are still many areas where LW definitely needs to be improved. But basically it comes down to what lets you get your work done on time. There are lots of things in Maya that I like, and plenty that I don't. I only use Maya at work because I have to....I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. There are things that it does better than LW, and likewise there are things that LW does better than Maya. It's all about using the right tool for the right situation. You gotta go with what works....blind loyalty to one software or hardware platform nowadays is just plain foolish.

durden
07-29-2004, 02:11 AM
you hit it on the nail...I spent too much time with one application...it wasn't smart...but then there wasn't too much for the mac till maya came around...I am also looking into c4d, they seem to be really working hard these days...but so far I like maya, I love that its one application too, lw need that... I find a lot of working with the program makes a lot of sense to me...just syncs with me...One thing though, differences in packages and all, LW doesn't have to crash...

I don't think I will ever really give up lw, I spent too much time with it...although sometimes I want to throw it out the window, and write rants to NT on why its bad...I know all packages have weaknesses and pluses...I do hope for nt's sake they are hauling arse 'cause they are gonna be left in the dust soon enough...

Ge4-ce
07-29-2004, 02:49 AM
I really don't think it will come that far. not everyone seems to have that many problems with LW8. you dislike the 2 programs seperated, I like that because you can focus on modeling first, and then animating. it's just a matter of taste. software in general is buggy as hell nowadays. the public is the betatester and I do not like that. we should GET payed to use their software instead of pay to use it. but that's the way this world works and there's not a **** thing we can do about it.

second: because of those bugs, we are forced to learn how to prevent, find goarounds, find solutions that do not make LW crash. especially when you are in a professional envirement. that comes WITH the job. having the capacity to deal with software problems just makes you a better CG artist. MORE: it makes the difference between a pro and an amateur! because an amateur has time, plenty of it. a pro does not. and me for myself speaking.. no matter how much I hate bugs and crashes... everytime I find a solution there goes a bit of adrenaline through my veins. Call it weird, call it stupid.. I like it..

stib
07-29-2004, 08:16 AM
[section removed by the moderators]

It's late, I want to go home to my kids, this scene that has taken me all day has to be rendered tomorrow, lets see - six and a half hours till I have to be back here, should just make it..

Propping my eyelids open with another short black, I open it up check the render settings: all is on track. Now just save and fire up LWSN

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! the dreaded crash-on-save-and-eat-your-scene-file bug gets me.

[expletive deleted by the moderators]

ok, stop sweating. I have a backup. yes, yes, I'll just open it and check that it's ok, phew, seems to be recent enough. Ok set the render settings again and saveOH******IT'SCRA5HEDAGAIN! Quick the backu.. Oh that WAS the backup.

NOOOO0000÷÷÷÷÷oooo°°°°║║║║║




[section removed by the moderators]

stib
07-29-2004, 08:56 AM
don't you just [section removed by moderators] those [section removed by moderators] when they [section removed by moderators] to your [section removed by moderators]!
Especially when one of them [section removed by moderators] which you can remove with a screwdriver and hammer [section removed by moderators] corporeal defenestrator, who incidentally [section removed by moderators] just like my aunt betty who has an enormous [section removed by moderators] in her back yard.

Oh PS you missed a bad word in my previous po5t. You might like to apply the fig leaf, in the interests of all the kiddies out there.

durden
07-29-2004, 12:54 PM
stib--sorry man that stinks...that is one reason I am going to switch to another software package..stuff like that is just unacceptable...and they don't fix it

Ge4-ce
I don't think it is a matter of taste try moving a point in layout or keyframing it for that matter, try going back and forth between modeler and layout with changes. I am working on a project with morph maps, I have the scene going in layout, then i say oh I need a new morph map switch to modeler, save it then jump back to layout, hey its not there. gotta quit lw then reload the whole program and scene; no way man. When you get into animations where you need the integration, you'll see don't worry ;)

Yeah in lightwave one has to find many solutions to problems...always a work around..I am glad you like'em
;)

Chuck
07-29-2004, 02:54 PM
The issue that Stib describes is most certainly one that we are working to fix. There are some legacy issues in the code with regard to loading and saving, and some we are sure we can resolve relatively quickly, others seem to have dependencies that make getting the fix done not a trivial exercise, according to reports from the product team. Hopefully the issue with a crash occuring at save time will be one of the former items.

Chuck
07-29-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by durden
darn program crashes when I am saving scenes and the scenes are no longer readable...now this really pi*ses me off....so I have to make copies of any file I open

I think the culprit is when I drag the file to the dock and load through there then I go to save and then it crashes...when I load through the lw interface all seems to work ok....


Just an aside - I don't know of any program that can crash during a file save and leave you with a usable file - and I know of a lot that can crash during a save from time to time. That said, hopefully we can identify the issue you describe and get it addressed. I'll certainly ask our Mac lead programmer to see if he can confirm any issue with going through the dock.

durden
07-29-2004, 03:12 PM
excellent, you are fixing it, thank you



Just an aside - I don't know of any program that can crash during a file save and leave you with a usable file

good pointľat anyrate its a really bad problem, saving is our lifeblood and since certain parts of the application only have one undoľex graph editorľif I am wrong I please let me know

best
d

Chuck
07-29-2004, 03:52 PM
One of the things we've added to help folks out (besides putting in a lot of work on stability issues) is to have the Hub do incremental scene file saves - under Properties, Automatic Save Project. I haven't used it, but I think one thing you'll want to check is to be sure where it is doing the saves to, so that if you do have a crash, you'll know where to look to recover your most recent backup.

toby
07-29-2004, 10:20 PM
I just remembered that I always load files through the application, never through the finder, since OS9 - been doing it so long I don't think about it ~ Doesn't really work on PC either.

stib
07-30-2004, 08:25 AM
Just an aside - I don't know of any program that can crash during a file save and leave you with a usable file

OK I never went to programming school, but here is how it goes in psuedo code:

on save(current_Scene)
write "save Unsuccessful" to LW preferences file
{
saveError = write current_Scene to Temporary_File_1

if (not saveError)
{
rename old_file to temporary_file_2
rename Temporary_file_1 to old_file.name
delete temporary_file_2
write "save Successful" to LW preferences file
}
}

and in the initialisation somewhere you have

if "save Unsuccessful"
{
ask user "do you want to recover files lost during crash?"
try to open (temporary_file_1)
try to open (temporary_file_2
}

Get it? If the app crashes and burns during the file save process you'va at least got the old file to go back to, instead of the zero byte ghost that is currently left there to taunt you, and you may even have the option of recovering the temporary file. Also the renaming stuff should be handled by the operating system and so will be pretty immune to lightwave flakiness. Mkay?.

You can mail me my consultancy fee now thanks.

And yes it seems like you should never ever open a scene from outside the app.

stib
07-30-2004, 08:58 AM
oh wait let me guess - you could do it, but it would involve a complete rewrite of the core..

eblu
07-30-2004, 09:22 AM
chuck,
a note about your note about the hub...
The hub causes crashes.
its nice that it incrementally saves, but it still... in version 8... causes more problems than its worth.

ingo
07-30-2004, 10:05 AM
Mine crashes "luckily" only after it saved the file, but you need strong nerves too. To avoid this i often close LW after an hour to free the memory and open it again, but before you have to save the file and all objects what i sometimes forget, because it takes ages to save all objects.

Tom Wood
07-30-2004, 10:15 AM
May or may not be related, but be sure your power supply AND the UPS is properly sized, especially if you have a RAID. Learned this one the hard way.

TW

Chuck
07-30-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by stib
OK I never went to programming school, but here is how it goes in psuedo code:

[snip]

Get it? If the app crashes and burns during the file save process you'va at least got the old file to go back to, instead of the zero byte ghost that is currently left there to taunt you, and you may even have the option of recovering the temporary file. Also the renaming stuff should be handled by the operating system and so will be pretty immune to lightwave flakiness. Mkay?.

You can mail me my consultancy fee now thanks.

And yes it seems like you should never ever open a scene from outside the app.

My comment stands - none of the apps I'm working with leave a workable file if they crash. That said, it is also the case that I went and talked to one of the programmers to get him to review this thread for the various issues described, and a change to the way saving is handled is already in consideration for a future update. What you posted this morning is similar to what he described to me yesterday.

noiseboy
07-30-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
My comment stands - none of the apps I'm working with leave a workable file if they crash.

It might be worth looking at the way that Evoqe's Solidthinking 3D app works then since if this app crashes, on the next startup you get the option to recover the previous session, which works. Are there specific circumstances when LW crashes on save because I haven't experienced this (yet) even if I do load the file( scene or modeller) via the dock?

Chuck
07-30-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by noiseboy
It might be worth looking at the way that Evoqe's Solidthinking 3D app works then since if this app crashes, on the next startup you get the option to recover the previous session, which works. Are there specific circumstances when LW crashes on save because I haven't experienced this (yet) even if I do load the file( scene or modeller) via the dock?

Our own VT[3] has similar behavior on "unintended exit" and in fact pretty well comes back up right where you left off, including recovering the undo stack. The two applications are very different, but there may be aspects that we can apply to this issue in LightWave.

Programming staff is looking into the dock issue - no news yet.

stib
07-30-2004, 06:38 PM
My comment stands - none of the apps I'm working with leave a workable file if they crash.

Granted, it's a bit obscure but there's this application where if something goes wrong and the programme crashes it does exactly what I describe: leaves a temporary file that you can recover and also alerts you next time you open the application. It's got a weird name: it's just called Word. Made by a little comapny called Microsoft. I think they dissappeared without trace, because no-one seems to know anything about them now, unlike Newtek which has products on every computer in the world these dys.

Ge4-ce
07-31-2004, 05:59 AM
Word? WORD??? What the heck is that? Is it something you can eat? Oh no, wait.. Congratulations! You have just found a feature in WORD that is actually useful! Unlike the other stuff.. What software tells you what to type?

stib
07-31-2004, 06:19 AM
Hey I didn't say I liked it. I even persist with openOffice.org on a mac I hate m$ w*rd that much. But Chuck said that he didn't know of any programmes that could leave workable files when they crash, and that comment just cried out for a smackdown.

Ge4-ce
07-31-2004, 06:22 AM
Ah ok ok.. then we are on the same side about Microsh#t... Who uses all those 1000 features to write a paper in Word anyway??

I just use it to view files with from other people.. The rest I do with Appleworks.. Then at least I'm in controle of what I type and do..

Chuck
07-31-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by stib
Hey I didn't say I liked it. I even persist with openOffice.org on a mac I hate m$ w*rd that much. But Chuck said that he didn't know of any programmes that could leave workable files when they crash, and that comment just cried out for a smackdown.

Stib, the aggravations I've had with Word were one of the things I had in mind when I wrote that comment. Yes, the temp file is sometimes not too far from where you where when Word crashed on you, but you can't depend on that, and no, the actual file you were trying to save to is not usable, which was my point in the first place because it was a reply to the comment made in the first place - if LightWave crashes during a file save that file is gone. Narrow point, narrow reply, and my apologies if that wasn't clear.

Addressing the wider discussion of the temp files, until I worked on the reference manual project I'd never seen the temp file get screwed up as well when Word does a belly-flopper, but guess what? It can be. Unfortunately it happened to one of the team members who didn't have my paranoid habit of regular incremental saves and cost a few days work the first time it happened.

So as opposed to having anything to say about the fact that the new team is wise to this issue and looking to address the situation, your interest is just in looking for reasons to hand out a smackdown. Noted. Whatever brightens your day, I'm glad I can help and I'm sure I'll afford you many such opportunities. :)

But as opposed to Word, I should have been smacked for forgetting our own VT[3], which does in fact come back more gracefully from crashes than anything else I know of. But then I spend a lot of time with Word, and really don't get time with VT[3], unfortunately.

stib
07-31-2004, 05:55 PM
the problem is that lightwave is not only eating the changes you make to the file, but it's eating the original file as well. So you're left with less than you start with. Obviously if something goes wrong while saving, it's not always possible to recover everything; but losing what has previously been saved is a bit much to bear.

Ge4-ce
08-01-2004, 02:45 PM
You know.. they actually have a quite good feature to solve that problem. It's called "SHIFT s" or just "S" for the more trained people ;)

In LW 8 you don't even have to add the version numbers anymore..

Please don't tell me that when modelling something, or making a complex scene, you only have 1 version of a scene or an object..??! If it would be, I hope for you it is a scene with max 2 lights, 1 camera and some objects containing not more than 100 polygons all together..

I also just love to go back to previous versions, especially with modeling.

(no pun intended here bear in mind)

strongarm27
08-02-2004, 01:21 PM
I think the point he is trying to make is using
any form of save can cause a file to corrupt on
save. So having a backup only works if you
can make a backup. I personally have not had
this happen but I avoid 8 but to dabble with. Any
application that breaks on save is not production
quality period. This a basic function of a program,
any program. If you can't save then you have junk.
I cant imagine having worked for a hour or
maybe even 15 min and gotten a real good hand
animated sequence done only to have it eat the file.
This is inexcusable level of quality. I can't
imagine a worse bug. Crashing while doing something
can be worked around but pray and save is not
even close to exceptable quality control. this should
never have happened. this shows newtek has
not changed its mode of operation. version 5
was crap 5.6 was usable. 6 was crap 6.5 was
usable. 7 was actually somewhat usable but
7.5 was and is the version I use and is pretty
stable and has never crashed on save ever.
So I will wait till 8.5 to use the wonderful new
features since I can't save with confidence.

rant over.

rant over.
strongarm27

Ge4-ce
08-02-2004, 01:39 PM
how many people actually had this crash on save bug?? I can work with 8 without a problem at the moment..

no saving problems.. none.. it hasn't crashed on me since I got it 2 months ago..

Must be the lucky guy...

strongarm27
08-02-2004, 02:12 PM
Lets hope its just his setup. You may work fine
in lightwave because you haven't done the things
hes doing. That is you may not be setting things
up as complicated or using the right combination
of plugins to cause it to hicup on save and I hope
you never do. If its only his system than ok but
if its not then you are just standing on a mine that
hasn't gone off yet. You will fee just like anyone
else that lost work but with a save bug you can't
work around it. I hope its not universal but for
paying jobs I wont take the risk. If its going to
fail it will be at the worst possable momment.

strongarm27

policarpo
08-02-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
how many people actually had this crash on save bug?? I can work with 8 without a problem at the moment..

no saving problems.. none.. it hasn't crashed on me since I got it 2 months ago..

Must be the lucky guy...

It crashes on me fairly regularly. I use 7.5c for any sort of mission critical work, and 8 for when I want to take the leap of faith that all my hard work won't go down the drain.

On a 15" PowerBook 1ghz with 10.3.4 and an ATI 9000 64mb card with all the latest drivers, updates, etc.

Ge4-ce
08-03-2004, 09:45 AM
I've got the same machine as you do Policarpo..

I haven't done things that produce bugs I guess..

policarpo
08-03-2004, 10:05 AM
Cool..if it works for you then keep using it.

I just haven't had the patience to track down what it may be ya know.

Cheers.

Lightwolf
08-03-2004, 10:20 AM
oops, I should have finished reading the whole thread first...sorry

Originally posted by Chuck
Just an aside - I don't know of any program that can crash during a file save and leave you with a usable file - and I know of a lot that can crash during a save from time to time.
Hi Chuck,
try openOffice, it can do that ;) Then again, some apps also check their file saving very thoroughly during the process, it is quite easy from an SDK pov to make LW crash during plugin prefs read/writes.

What if LW would first check if a file is supposed to be overwritten, rename that as a backup copy, and then save the scene/object file (and, if that succeeds, delete the backup)? That shouldn't be too hard to incorporate into the current code, and would save some lives (plus less trouble with the wife ;) ).

Upon loading, Lw could look for a backup, and if it is there and newer than the "official" file, ask the user if the backup should be loaded.

DF handles flows that way, and I haven't lost one yet.

Cheers,
Mike

stib
08-03-2004, 11:14 PM
Hey Lightwolf - my legal team will be on your doorstep any moment now to collect the royalties you owe me ;)

Lightwolf
08-04-2004, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by stib
Hey Lightwolf - my legal team will be on your doorstep any moment now to collect the royalties you owe me ;)
Lol, I'm not worried, this is prior art, common sense in programming for the past few ... decades almost ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Z_Render_8
08-10-2004, 10:40 PM
I hear your pain Durden,

While I never had any problems savings scenes with LW 8. The one thing I did notice that pains me when using LW 8 on a Mac is the slow loading of a 7.5 scene.

When I was using 7.5 with 10.2.8 on my dual 1.25 PowerMAc is was rock solid! Then I upgraded to LW 8 running with Panther it became crash city. The PC side using XP pro seems to be more stable and quickier in loading files. In fact most of my crashes happens when I load a scene. I lost a few scenes and files. Nothing serious, but I am more careful now.

I don't understand the loading problems. I carefully backup every project before I close out LW. I email newtek on this, hopefully I'll get some help.

3dworks
08-19-2004, 08:50 AM
i discovered that the 0 bytes file saving bug disappeared when i opened the scene file with a text editor and removed all the text between 'plugin masterhandler' and 'endplugin' concerning the scene editor plugin. saving this edited file again from layout was successful!

the bug (layout saves a scene file with 0 bytes) occurred to me as long as i opened the scene editor window, saved the file and reopened this file in layout.

hope it helps someone...

using LW 8 build 690 on mac osx 10.3.5

markus groeteke
3dworks visual computing

Ozzie
08-22-2004, 07:31 PM
Thanks 3dworks. That worked. I have been having the same trouble as others. Save a scene and crash. Save as, Save a copy, even duplicating a file and saving that, all resulted in crashes and a zero k file. Not a good way to work. I took the file over to a PC and edited it the way you describe and it now works fine. Thanks.

Mark

stib
08-22-2004, 07:39 PM
pah! I knew it, that dang spreadsheet! What it does is great, but it's got more bugs than a very buggy thing with seven little buggy things following behind.