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View Full Version : 3rd party renderers like VRAY a must.



Ade
07-22-2004, 03:55 AM
I was just wondering why 3rd party renderers are not available for Lightwave 8?
As much as this conversation has been had before and as much as lightwaves renderer is highly respected, having VRAY or Brazil would seriously help lightwaves image in the pro market.

For Viz stuff vray is maximum advantage.
In the meantime while we get wat we want with the 3rd party renderers, newtek can take their time advancing lws own renderer.

retinajoy
07-22-2004, 04:35 AM
I presume that once Newtek have finished opening up the SDK so FPrime can use all the shaders etc, then other third party renderers can be made to work with LW too if they wish.

Maybe with the next release of FPrime working with the updated SDK in the point release, the amazing FPrime we will be the only renderer you will ever need. :)

Exper
07-22-2004, 05:09 AM
This is due the quite-closed LW SDK.

I don't think any 3rd party developer is glad to invest in a renderer which cannot access to LW's Shaders, Volumetric, Pixel Filters and in general to the core!

We really hoping for a complete and total LW's SDK open-up...
let them access to everything they want!

Hervé
07-22-2004, 05:53 AM
someone said about the future release of F_prime, that it will be a tsunami, compare to the small wave it's now...:D .... and you said...V_ray...??..... 'never heard about that one....:D ;)

Hervé
07-22-2004, 05:55 AM
... a stupid question I am sure..... could NT open the SDK just for Steve Worley, keeping it secret for other developers....?:confused:

Exper
07-22-2004, 06:07 AM
Just a note: V-Ray is well featured and important GI renderer! :D

Originally posted by Hervé
could NT open the SDK just for Steve Worley, keeping it secret for other developers....?:confused: Everything is possible in this world... unfortunately! :(

But they'll not be so silly... for sure!

Hervé
07-22-2004, 06:11 AM
dunno, but I guess it's "Mathematica Jungle Fever " in the 3D community universe.... he he...:p

lunarcamel
07-22-2004, 07:16 AM
Ahh Vray - don't get me excited thinking about it!

Ztreem
07-22-2004, 07:41 AM
I just wondered if someone have used the Light-R plugin and rendered with 3Delight which seems to be a free renderman renderer. :confused:

ddho1981
07-22-2004, 08:01 AM
i'm just excited about the "tsunami" release of f-prime . . . that program won my heart. hopefully they'll get the kinks worked out and those using viz/max whatever will be saying "i wish we could use fprime!"

Red_Oddity
07-22-2004, 08:24 AM
a lot of 'm are already doing that, even with the 'limitations' f-prime has right now :D

Exper
07-22-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by ddho1981
....
and those using viz/max whatever will be saying "i wish we could use fprime!" Hoping me too! ;)

But... some competition is always a benefit for final users!

caesar
07-22-2004, 11:45 AM
Open SDK...FPrime with full LW compatibity and net rendering.....:p ...how nice will (would?) it be....

Nemoid
07-22-2004, 12:18 PM
F prime rocks and really can't wait to see the Lw SDk opened
so that it can be integrated. Worley said also bout a screamernet for F prime so that this will unleash all of its power. a good thing would be a great partnership between Nt and Worley labs and give us Fprime in Lw as the default rendering engine. :)

Then, since the SDk will be opened, support other good engines like V-Ray would be fantastic as well. i read about v_ray into a good CG italian magazine, and was reallyfascinated by its sub pixel displacement features among alot of other good things for materials as well.

Incidentally,i read V-Ray will be supported also from Maya.

nerdyguy227
07-22-2004, 12:31 PM
This would be a great thing for NT to improve on since rendering is usually so time consuming.

That would be cool if LW hade the feture of infanently sub patched surfaces like renderman. As the camera gets closer it automatically rases the sub patch leval so no matter how close you get, it is still perfictly smooth.

jasonazure
07-22-2004, 12:33 PM
Has anyone seen this ?

http://www.sitexgraphics.com/

they have a Renderman compatible renderer for $450 USD, plus you need a RIB exporter plug-in for Lightwave from http://www.td-grafik.de/softw/lightman.php?lang=en which costs 249 EUROS !

Just thought you'd like to know that FPrime isn't the only alternative.

I think both companies have demo versions to download.

Ade
07-22-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by ddho1981
i'm just excited about the "tsunami" release of f-prime . . . that program won my heart. hopefully they'll get the kinks worked out and those using viz/max whatever will be saying "i wish we could use fprime!"

VRAY ****s all over Fprime.
In my books Fprime wasnt what I needed.
Its GI is usless for viz renders.
Vray is precise, has many features and dual support.

Dont mistaked Fprimes speed with its accuracy.

retinajoy
07-22-2004, 08:19 PM
Looks like VRay is going to evolve into a stand alone renderer not bound to any particular 3d app, but able to link to any 3D app. So it could link into LW in the future.

http://www.vrayrender.com/exe/

lunarcamel
07-22-2004, 08:20 PM
I was just getting into Vray when Fprime came out and what I thought was so funny was how everyone cheered how fast and ammazing it was - All I could think to myself was "None of these people have used anything but LW's built in renderer" so of course it's ammazing because until that point we were all stuck with a slow outdated renderer.


I hope Fprime opens the door to future 3rd party renderers - and if Vray is one of them I'll be all smiles ;)

But I'm not counting on it anytime soon. hehe

Hervé
07-22-2004, 11:18 PM
You should have posted this too.... this is my main concern over pure speed....:D

First render is LW..... ouch the diagonal lines !!!! very bad.... maybe enough for goofy toons, but not for precise stuff...

Hervé
07-22-2004, 11:19 PM
mucho better.... but not LW unfortunately....:D :mad:

Ade
07-22-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by retinajoy
Looks like VRay is going to evolve into a stand alone renderer not bound to any particular 3d app, but able to link to any 3D app. So it could link into LW in the future.

http://www.vrayrender.com/exe/

I think LW and support for vray exe is vital.
It would open a serious market for the viz architect scene to adopt LW into their flow....People like me.

Wickster
07-23-2004, 02:04 AM
hey know what! theres a thread at CGTalk right now about VRAY.exe. its supposed to be a stand alone renderer that is not tied to any programs...i guess that will answer the wishes of some people here.;)

anyway here is the link to the official site of the project: Project VRAY.exe (http://www.vrayrender.com/exe/)

Wickster
07-23-2004, 02:07 AM
:eek:
MAN i'm slow as a turtle stuck on glue. ignore my last post, sorry retinajoy didn't quite read the whole board before posting.

Hervé
07-23-2004, 02:28 AM
I like that expression "turtle stuck on glue"... ha ha really cool one....!:D

Panikos
07-23-2004, 03:54 AM
VRay is good, as long you fly the camera only. Its not suitable for animating elemenets, if you have any doubts browse its site and read what users testify, who use compositing techniques to achieve animation in VRay.

VRay is like LWBaking but through the shortest path. Its suitable for architects but unsuitable for TV/Film work.

LW's GI and FPrime calculate solutions on the pixel level for every sub-frame value.
Believe that even in reality, a minor change in the scenery changes the overall light conditions.

I am fan of accuracy :rolleyes:

Exper
07-23-2004, 04:04 AM
Again... benefits come from competition!

You need a Renderer for Arch/Viz and find the appropriate one!

You need a Renderer for TV/Film and find the appropriate one!

You need a Renderer fot pre-viz and find the appopriate one!

You need a generic Renderer and find the appropriate one!

At now... you cannot choose:
internal Renderer (good but slow and generic) or FPrime (with lot of limitations)!

Maybe I'm an idiot (for sure... I am :D) but this is the actual scene... you cannot choose!

Mylenium
07-23-2004, 04:34 AM
Well, I have to agree with Exper here. LW's renderer is aimed at serving every user and thus is not very sophisticated and specialized in any area. I'ts nice that more and more good renderers are becoming available and if I look at the current development for Maya I'm quite satisfied (finalRender, VRay, Turtle, MentalRay, Maya native...) It's sad that LW cannot make use of them and thus drastically falls behind competion. It's a shame that they haven't even manged to erase some very critical bugs and that (among other things) is why LW 8 is such a big disappointment With all the talk about LW and FPrime let's not forget Messiah as an option, even though it needs a lot of tweaking to make something out of an imported LW scene.

Panikos:

I think there you are mistaken. Things with VRay cannot be that bad. I can recall at least about 5 projects I know where people definitely stated they were indeed using VRay (some of it back then when it was still in Beta) and did all the rendering in one pass without any compositing. Scanline, a company which does quite a lot of stuff for film and TV here in Germany also massively uses VRay and develops tools based upon it. I doubt they would be using it if it really was plagued by problems such as you state.

Mylenium

Panikos
07-23-2004, 04:37 AM
Mylenium, I read this and concluded

http://www.vrayrender.com/home/comments.html

particularly the phrase:
"Naturally this doesn't apply to characters, where the lighting solution needs to change from frame to frame, so we have to split our renders into character/background passes."

lunarcamel
07-23-2004, 08:01 AM
Pankios: I think that testimonial is quite old.

Go to www.vray.info to learn more about how the solution is calculated for animation etc.

Lightwolf
07-23-2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
First render is LW..... ouch the diagonal lines !!!! very bad.... maybe enough for goofy toons, but not for precise stuff...
Yeah, LWs texture filtering sucks, and can only be cured with more antialiasing passes. The main problem seems to be the lack of anisotropic filtering. Renderman (which rendered the second shot I think), does this much better. Mind you, a more exact texture filtering takes longer to, but is still faster than having to render extra aa passes _just_ to get the textures right.

Cheers,
Mike

caesar
07-23-2004, 08:59 AM
I think vray.exe could be great for LW - but I think its appearence depends from the LW SDK limitations. I read the vray and so the gallery, I seems it can be used for animation or any thing...

Karmacop
07-23-2004, 09:39 AM
I think it's sad that my $20 game has better texture filtering than my $1500 renderer :p

Lightwolf
07-23-2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
I think it's sad that my $20 game has better texture filtering than my $1500 renderer :p
Actually, your 600$ gfx board _might_ have a better texture filtering than the renderer you get with free rendering licenses ;)

Or, looking at it another way, PRMan costs as much as two - three seats of LW - per machine.

Cheers,
Mike

Panikos
07-23-2004, 09:55 AM
As always, there is room for improvment.
Its not my fault if they havent updated that VRay website.

The emergence of FPrime brought a new era in LW-world. This eventually will cause some changes in LWSDK and who knows whats next.

:D

nerdyguy227
07-23-2004, 10:26 AM
so when is this "tsunami" going to happen with worleys FPrime-"small wave"?

cresshead
07-23-2004, 01:51 PM
whilst vray is pretty neat it's still some way off being "the one"...and rightnow it's only for 3dsmax..though a neat thing is they have 3 versions out for it..a free one, a medium one and a pro version..

note that final render is due out pretty soon for maya 6.0 as well as 3ds max where there are two versions currently a stage -0- and a stage -1-...

www.finalrender.com

also note that brazil is only on max currently and has two versions..a free version and a pro version that has 4 render nodes www.splutterfish.com

the only renderer's that are available for most platforms and are affordable currently are mental images: metal ray and project messiah studio bith of which have hooks for max, maya xsi and lightwave ...

other than that we'll wait for nvida to bring out there renderer later this year..

also note that many studios that are maya based use lightwave's renderer in preference to any of the bundled [4 renders in maya]
renderes that are in maya 6.0 as the lightwave renderer is predicable and scales very well with large datasets and hdri lighting.

even though you "percieve" lightwave as somewhat limiting as a renderer..many film studios do not.

..then we have f prime to look at.

cresshead
07-23-2004, 01:57 PM
also comparing a lightwave render to a renderman render for the texture antialising is of limited value as 95% of 3d application users do not have the funds for the rendermen option..a more balanced view wold be to see what/how the following apps look like in that render comparison or a set of compatable scenes.

vray
brazil
final render stage 1
mental ray
messiah studio
nvidia renderer [similar to entropy]
arnold

then look at the costs.....

renderman costs about 3-4 times as much as lightwave or maya.
and only has one render node not 999 render nodes like that of lightwave or 10,000 free render nodes as with 3ds max scanline/radiosity renderer..these are important factors to take into account when ramping up to a t.v film based project.

lunarcamel
07-23-2004, 02:16 PM
cresshead: What is your source of all that info about Maya based studios using LW as their renderer? Just asking ;)

And I for one don't "percieve" lightwave as a limited renderer - just a slow one hehe

cresshead
07-23-2004, 02:27 PM
...maya...there have been many example over the past years with studio's using a lightwave/maya pipline, that's why there are so many interpators around for the trip from lw to maya and maya to lw..some are "in house" whilst others are free or beta ware..

one exmple is the nike advert...modeled in lw...animated in maya and lit and rendered in lightwave with hdri lighting

another is captain scarlet which started on maya/mental ray but was dropped and switched over to lightwave as it is more stable/faster renders and looked better.

another was jimmy neutron tv shows...models in lightwave..character animated in maya or messiah animate and rendered in lightwave.

lightwave may but a little slow but the quality is there everytime and with the cost advantage in comparison to render nodes for mental ray which has severe limitations on using all of maya's lights/textures and particles lightwave often comes to the rescue and IS faster dues to the fact you can AFFORD to have a larger render farm...

steve g

lunarcamel
07-23-2004, 02:46 PM
So it's faster because you can afford more procs - I guess that's one way of looking at it ;P

Elmar Moelzer
07-23-2004, 03:01 PM
Hello!
Well comparing a non- antialiased LW- rendering to a PRman- rendering is extremely unfair. Every renderer is unique in the way it handles certain things and it is true that LWs Texture- filtering does not look to good with Antialiasing set to off.
BUT, noone will want to render without Antialiasing in production, so a comparison of results without Antialiasing makes little sense and makes LWs renderer look worse than it actually is.
LWs renderer has never been the fastest, but it is very solid and stable and produces good and very predictable results with little time needed for setting up shaders, etc.
This is why it has always been very popular and continues to be popular in the industry.
That does not mean, that there is no room for improvement, I just want to keep things a bit more fair...
CU
Elmar

harlan
07-23-2004, 05:50 PM
Hmmm...perhaps by supporting 3rd party renderers (or including one with the package), they'd be able to "lighten" the focus on improving their own renderer and aim said focus into the Animation & Modeling toolset.

Don't get me wrong, I have no real issues with the LW renderer other than speed. It's quite functional especially when you know how to use it to your advantage.

Just a thought.

cresshead
07-23-2004, 06:38 PM
not one to state the obvious but if you were on the max camp looking at renderers well you'd often hear that lightwave just makes renders look nice with little effort...have you ever tried mental ray, renderman [if you can afford it] or final render/vray...
well i have final render on max and it has a load of goodies and reads very well on the discription of the spec sheet..sss, true caustics, photon maps..blah blah blah...but have you looked at the controls??...looks like nasa have a a few spare diaogue boxes left over so they put around 80 of them in final render... then split the up an placed them all over the shop....

with those renderers you have to work real hard at getting a good render out...i'm not saying lightwave is a one button...cool renderer but it is predicable and stable and that [set up time] plays a huge chunk of your available render time..that's why f prime also makes a huge wave...yes your bog standard render from lightwave may take longer than vray or mental ray once you hit F9 but with lightwave and possibly fprime to set up lights you'd be hitting F9 hours before you would in mental ray or final render...sort of negates the faster renderer status of those renderer's seeing as you'll spend a lot of time tweeking/editing/test rendering where as lightwave wold have been kicking out final's for a few hours already.

harlan
07-23-2004, 06:56 PM
Well, I'm not certain as to who your post is directed to Cress, but I'm quite familiar with Renderman & Mental Ray. I think the points you raise there are really more of a workflow issue, rather than a "renderer" issue.

LW definitely has a great renderer, but those other renderers offer a high level of control over every aspect of the render as well - albeit at the expense of workflow pleasantries. I've always been about having options rather than not having them.

The gist of my earlier post was simply the notion that NewTek might be able to focus more on the Animation & Modelling aspects of LW by allowing the use of 3rd party renderers. As with the majority of NewTek products, they tend to conform to the old "Jack of all trades" addage - while they could easily become "Masters" of some.

Karmacop
07-23-2004, 10:40 PM
Lightwolf, you don't have to pay royalties for trilinear filtering etc do you? :confused:

Mylenium
07-24-2004, 03:15 AM
Well, sorry Cresshead to say so, but that thing about studios loving LW's renderer is BS. This is a totally unrealistic view. It's an incorrect preoccupation to think that an LW/Maya pipeline is most common only because some big studios have established it. This would have been true for Maya 1 up until 2.5, where especially the rendering part was plagued by bugs and flaws, but ever since v3 this no longer is an serious issue. You could only assume that studios stick to that workflow because of the many dedicated tools they have developed, but that does noone really good. Unless we can get our hands, let's say, on Digital Domains toolset on an affordable commercial basis, discussing any such issues is pointless. You are also wrong about people being not willing or able to manage Mental Ray, Maya's own renderer , finalRender or VRay. Sure, the many options may scare away some users at first, but honestly many of the feature requests for LW's renderer simply wouldn't exist if it was node based like Mental Ray or Maya. Even some pretty advanced techiques such as correct area shadows (sans area lights!)can be produced just by laying out a proper shading network. I'm not saying that things could not be improved in Maya (or any other renderer for that matter), but in terms of flexibility they are lightyears ahead of LW. Quality is also not an issue, even though I can agree that on such complex renderers such as Mental Ray there is more chance of producing bad results because more buttons can be tweaked in the wrong way.

Mylenium

Hervé
07-24-2004, 04:09 AM
That's what I thought... I think you're right Mylenium...;)

Aegis
07-24-2004, 05:17 AM
I started on Captain Scarlet after Ron had joined and switched the lighting/rendering side of things over to LightWave so I didn't see first hand what the major problems were with Renderman however one of the Maya guys (who is very impressed with LightWave) said the biggest production black hole was getting scenes into Renderman - he said the more complex scenes could take over 30 mins just to load into Renderman - you'd then have to wait for a frame to be rendered and only then would you see if it's correct - LightWave's "F9" (and now FPrime) were truly a revelation. Another dilemma was that shots were having to be broken down into an immense amount of layers in order to get them to render at all - whilst we still do a lot of comping and many shots have character/background/visual FX passes, most of my work is what we call a "publish" - i.e. no comping required - straight to the edit.

Bear in mind that I have zero experience with Renderman or Maya - these comments were made by Maya TD's working here at Indestructible. Ron's quote of Maya/Renderman producing .5 to 1.5 shots per day compared with LightWave producing 16-20 is bang on the money - maybe Scarlet could have been done to budget/deadline with Maya/Renderman alone - the point is LightWave guaranteed it.

Heck, if I had my way we'd ditch Maya altogether and use MotionBuilder for the character animation/mocap and LightWave for modelling, texturing, hardbody/dynamics animation, lipsync and facial animation (Mimic Pro), lighting and rendering - while the current Maya/LightWave pipeline works, The Beaver Project lacks flexibility and is, in my opinion a clumsy way of getting animation from Maya into LightWave. The beauty of MotionBuilder is that you're baking bones not geometry which means you can do a lot more with your animation once you get it into LightWave.

Lightwolf
07-24-2004, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
also comparing a lightwave render to a renderman render for the texture antialising is of limited value as 95% of 3d application users do not have the funds for the rendermen option..a more balanced view wold be to see what/how the following apps look like in that render comparison or a set of compatable scenes.
Well, as far as texture filtering is concerned, LW is just about the worst in the bunch (FPrime is worse, but has a different rendering strategy anyhow). Heck, even the native Maya renderer got decent image filtering in V4.0 (and it was touted as a big feature back then). I mean, c'mon, the algorithms behind that are common knowledge for the past couple of years (I've seen papers going back 10 years covering the topic), it is not like a high end feature or something like that...

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
07-24-2004, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Elmar Moelzer
Hello!
Well comparing a non- antialiased LW- rendering to a PRman- rendering is extremely unfair. Every renderer is unique in the way it handles certain things and it is true that LWs Texture- filtering does not look to good with Antialiasing set to off.
The problem is, it still has issues even with the aa level cranked up to the max, especially in anisotropic cases and in animations. The example renderer just shows it more clearly, and it is the same problem. Craniking up the aa to extreme just to get decent filtering at the horizons is certainly not an option.... which is why people posts tricks like blending out textures with gradients to avoid flickering.

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
07-24-2004, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Lightwolf, you don't have to pay royalties for trilinear filtering etc do you? :confused:
No you don't. But LW _uses_ trilinear filtering, it doesn't do any anisotropic filtering though. Do a quick google on texture filtering and elliptical weighed averaging and you'll knwo what I mean (Sorry, I'm at home and don't have the links here).

Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
07-24-2004, 06:18 AM
I dunno much about all this tek info, but sure enough you know your subject LightWolf !

Many times in LW renders, I was so pissed at the way LW rendered my diagonals thin banisters.... aaaahhhh, and you're right, sometimes it's even worse in F_Prime, but cooking for a long time SOMETIMES gets the job done....:cool:

Karmacop
07-24-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
No you don't. But LW _uses_ trilinear filtering, it doesn't do any anisotropic filtering though. Do a quick google on texture filtering and elliptical weighed averaging and you'll knwo what I mean (Sorry, I'm at home and don't have the links here).

Cheers,
Mike

I know a bit about texture filtering (obviously not as much as you), but I didn't think anisotropic filtering would be the lone difference in that render between PRMan and Lightwave. It looks .. I don't know ... worse than it should. Maybe it's just the texture.

harlan
07-24-2004, 10:18 AM
Rendering in multiple passes is not a flaw or a limitation, and it shouldn't be presented as such!!! It's an advantage, and depending on the project, should be used with any renderer.

I've rendered countless animations from Lightwave via a single pass - big deal. Rendering in one pass, you instantly kill all of your post render tweaking capabilities. Again, depending on the project, but only an amateur/idiot would render a high-end project in one pass.

Oh, and by pass, I don't mean you have to press F10 a million different times. You could technically render the entire animation out "in one pass" while saving out multiple buffers.

hope that makes sense.


Originally posted by Mylenium
Panikos:

I think there you are mistaken. Things with VRay cannot be that bad. I can recall at least about 5 projects I know where people definitely stated they were indeed using VRay (some of it back then when it was still in Beta) and did all the rendering in one pass without any compositing. Scanline, a company which does quite a lot of stuff for film and TV here in Germany also massively uses VRay and develops tools based upon it. I doubt they would be using it if it really was plagued by problems such as you state.

Mylenium

harlan
07-24-2004, 10:25 AM
I just mean, don't fall into the thought process that you should be able to render the "perfect" image at the push of a button.

You can, quite often, get gorgeous results from any renderer with a single pass, but you're shooting yourself in the foot by limiting your control over the image.

The actual render, is only one part of the process to getting quality images. Just as filming something with a camera is only one part of the filmmaking process. After you capture your images, you take them to the next logical step Post.

blah blah...

lunarcamel
07-24-2004, 10:30 AM
So true - it ammazes me when I show someone why NOT to render out a project in one single layer. They usually have this glazed over look like - "Wow - that makes sense"

Maybe that's the compositor in me though ;)

cresshead
07-24-2004, 11:20 AM
...we see/read talk to people and make an evaluation upon our research/interests and from what i have persnally read/talked to and evaluated brazil/vray/final render and max scanline[i have these on my 3dsmax install] i still get better results out faster in lightwave..the only other app that i think deserves praise for consistant quality renders is that of lightscape when aiming for photoreal output..even with it's ye olde worldy tech from 1998
i have spent a little time with mental ray but not enough to give it a review and that's the max/mental ray in max 6.0 so it's a bit unfair possibly on mental ray per say....

tv shows such as buffy,enterprise,max steel,dan dare,roughnecks,voyager,battle star galactica,dune,busy buses and jimmy neutron keep the lightwave flag flying and in ya face on the t.v...ya canny noo denny it eh kiddies? [shrek voiceover]even v old stuff like babylon 5 still has a nice render for t.v.

i do like the render quality of cubix which was made with xsi and mental ray so xsi can do t.v quality on a tv budget...even wheels on the bus that has a "cheap" look was xsi..


i can't list many if any shows that are maya based....anyone??

max for t.v shows seems limited to cubez and tiny planets..now i'm struggling except for hyperimage that did 2 roughneck shows.

..so where's cinema on al this...?

where's brazil on t.v???

where's vray on tv shows????

where's renderman on tv shows???????


BTW anyone know what's use on these shows as i'm not sure...
rolly ole poley
noddy
insektors [softimage 3.0 is think]
sliders [lightwave i think..]
lexx
trippin the rift t.v show
firefly [lightwave i think]
xena warrior [lightwave i think]


Hmmm... either newtek place a horses head in the t.v show directors beds to ward off other 3d apps or lightwave has some innner strength that always gets the job done, on time , on budget and to a high quality.

Mylenium
07-24-2004, 12:32 PM
BTW anyone know what's use on these shows as i'm not sure...
rolly ole poley
noddy
insektors [softimage 3.0 is think]
sliders [lightwave i think..]
lexx
trippin the rift t.v show
firefly [lightwave i think]
xena warrior [lightwave i think]


Nope, definitely some mistakes

Les insecteurs/ Insectors -> Alias PA 7 (yeah, it's that old)

LEXX -> Houdini (or Prisms, as it still was called back then), Alias PA (v8 most likely), some custom tools BUT LW was used also

Sliders -> MAX, as far as I know

Max and Maya are used all the time on TV, even though not for special shows and movies, more for promos and other motion graphics. I'm sure some more digging will bring up more results. A film that definitely used Maya was "Babylon 5 - legend of the Rangers". There are also some older shows such as "Reboot" that could be attributed to Alias - but with PA. Cinema 4D was used for instance on the "Spiderman" movies.

Mylenium

Aegis
07-24-2004, 02:33 PM
Rendering in multiple passes is not a flaw or a limitation, and it shouldn't be presented as such!!! It's an advantage, and depending on the project, should be used with any renderer.

I never said it was a flaw or limitation and as mentioned, many of our shots are logically broken down into background, character and visual FX passes. What most definately is a limitation is when you'd like to render elements in a single pass (say your characters for example) but have to break them into multiple passes just to get them to render - understand now?


I've rendered countless animations from Lightwave via a single pass - big deal. Rendering in one pass, you instantly kill all of your post render tweaking capabilities. Again, depending on the project, but only an amateur/idiot would render a high-end project in one pass.

Ever made 26 x 25 minute all-CGI television episodes @ HD resolution using 4 x teams of 15 artists with a turnaround of one episode per team per 8 weeks? All sharing the same renderfarm? If not, perhaps you should - you'd soon see the benefit of being able to get shots out (and approved by the director) in one hit. (and less of the amateur/idiot attitude please - just 'cause you think you're right doesn't make it so...)

retinajoy
07-24-2004, 05:33 PM
Sliders - definitely mostly Lightwave, but a few effects houses did work on the show so maybe some stuff was done using another package. Edit: Ken Stranahan at one point was the special effect supervisor.

Firefly - Lightwave by ZOIC studios who also did the effects in Battlestar Galactica.

Xena (and Hercules) was all Lightwave too.

Noddy - by Cosgrove Hall (of Dangermouse fame). They were using MAX a few years ago as their main app. Don't know about now though.

Tripping the Rift: cgi by CinéGroupe using MAX as far as I know. The original short was done using max, then it was going to be Maya for the series but then changed back to max.

Andromeda - is another to add to the list for season 4. The effects in previous seasons (especially 1 and 2) were quite poor and done using Maya. Season 4 is much better looking since using LW :) . Shame about the scripts (but corny fun), but Lexa Doig is nice.

Stargate SG1 - a very popular sci-fi show uses Lightwave and Maya for the effects.

Hervé
07-25-2004, 12:44 AM
Well cant say anything here, as the only show I've seen once was Buffy and the Monsters, and it was soooooo stupid and badly done.... jeeez.... the other shows I dunno, It's not palying here, but that Bufy TV series is..... cant say.... he he:D I remember watching "Get Smart" on TV when I was young and that was at least stupid, but with a sense of humor...

What about all the shows you mentionned, are they all like that one...?

retinajoy
07-25-2004, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
What about all the shows you mentionned, are they all like that one...?

Depends what you like. Some of them are just cheesy sci-fi/fantasy stuff, but I enjoy them for the escapist fun of it all.

Buffy is aimed at a particular type of audience (mainly teenage) and I think works well for them.

The Firelfy series I recommend for good writing and good vfx. The series (which only ran for one season) is now being turned into the movie Serenity using predominantly Lightwave for the film sfx.

edit: Star Trek Enterpise - fx by Eden FX is another Lightwave show.

Lightwolf
07-25-2004, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by harlan
Rendering in multiple passes is not a flaw or a limitation, and it shouldn't be presented as such!!! It's an advantage, and depending on the project, should be used with any renderer.
Yes, but there is a difference between rendering in multiple passes, or "layers", and having to up the number of anti-aliasing passes to get an acceptable image/texture quality.

Cheers,
Michael

Lightwolf
07-25-2004, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
I know a bit about texture filtering (obviously not as much as you), but I didn't think anisotropic filtering would be the lone difference in that render between PRMan and Lightwave.
No, I don't think it is the only difference either. Good image filtering is a costly process, either in processing time or in memory used. The advantage renderman has is that it does the aa, dof, motion blur etc in one single pass, and can thus afford to take more ressource for the image filtering because it basically only happens once for every textured pixel.
In Lw it happens more than once depending on your scene aa settings, and has to thus be speedier and, it seems, less accurate.

Oh, and there are also some flaws with textures being scaled up as well. Try grayscale typography on a spotlight projection map, at a fairly low texture res and high projection size. You'll notice pixelization where you'd expect the texture just to get blurrier. The same goes for reflection and refraction maps btw.

Cheers,
Mike - He Who did a bit of R&D on Texture Filtering...

Hervé
07-25-2004, 05:01 AM
maybe a bit old... but I used to love watching the X-Files series.... he he...:D

cresshead
07-25-2004, 07:40 AM
nice reply Aegis!

some can "talk the talk"
some can "walk the walk"

i believe that Aegis does both quite well!

good luck on all the hard work your team mate are putting into the tv show and i look forward to seeing it soon.

steveg

cresshead
07-25-2004, 07:46 AM
maybe the thing that's holding back vray, final render and brazil is that it runs on 3dsmax which looks to be nowhere on broadcast television shows though it does make [3dsmax] nice logo and ident work on abc news and nfl sports event etc.

the only vray stuff on t.v i know of was a promo video for a club track sung by charlotte church for a d.j called jorgen fries [speelling??] last year.

so lightwave is still the dominant renderer for television.

steve g

Lightwolf
07-25-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
so lightwave is still the dominant renderer for television.

...depending on the type of show, and the country that is. Since LW is for example hardly in use at studios here in Germany, you also hardly get to see original content rendered with LW here... Most of the stuff is from abroad.
The same goes for movie vfx created over here.

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
07-25-2004, 08:22 AM
yeah in germany cebas and maxon have a good foothold for cgi content on tv along with scanline, interesting to note that it seems that scanlne have switched from final render to vray as their prefrerd renderer, i surpose it must help a studio i germany if they can visit/get in good relations with a local software developer for plugins and renderers for their cgi content.

steve g

Lightwolf
07-25-2004, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
yeah in germany cebas and maxon have a good foothold for cgi content on tv along with scanline, interesting to note that it seems that scanlne have switched from final render to vray as their prefrerd renderer, i surpose it must help a studio i germany if they can visit/get in good relations with a local software developer for plugins and renderers for their cgi content.

I think good relations help _any_ studio ;) Scanline are absolutely amazing though, and just about the only studio I know here that does major R&D work as well, which is very rare around here...
I'm surprised at them switching, since they do have excellent contacts to cebas, and have co-developed a couple of products as far as I know (like thinking particles).

Cheers,
Mike

Ade
07-25-2004, 08:26 AM
We need to get that Vray exe happening.
Newtek needs to encourage 3rd party renderers to make it over. They have their hands full already preparing new features for modeller for lw8.5.

retinajoy
07-25-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Ade
They have their hands full already preparing new features for modeller for lw8.5.

Do you have some inside information?
:)

Ade
07-25-2004, 08:39 AM
NT themselv es have said Modeller will get its due in 8.2 or 8.5...

retinajoy
07-25-2004, 08:43 AM
I am looking forward to those modelling improvements, along with the native render update and the SDK fully working to allow those 3rd paty renders, especially FPrime with full access.

Ade
07-25-2004, 08:55 AM
I personally think Modeller can wait..

Renderer, plugin support and NOW HARDWARE SUPPORT for stuff like gelato is very very important. New comers are watching everyday and we cannot live in the past and bring up companies that 5 years ago said they used LW where as now they have probably moved on to maya or c4d.

Speeding up GI is a major issue. Vray can sold that till NT does. FPrime simply is a preview viewer and not a total finish.

Karmacop
07-25-2004, 09:17 AM
Ade, since you do (from what I understand) only architectual type stuff, why not buy some other software with a render you like and export your geometry from Lightwave? Maybe even look into some of the free renderers.

Hervé
07-25-2004, 09:49 AM
Hellooo Karmacop, dont be rude with our friends....:eek: :cool: :D ;)

Ade
07-25-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Ade, since you do (from what I understand) only architectual type stuff, why not buy some other software with a render you like and export your geometry from Lightwave? Maybe even look into some of the free renderers.

1) I just bought LW8
2) 3DS costs like over $7K aus
3) I dont want to just do viz work, id like to continue on with my other fun projects and animations

ddho1981
07-25-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Ade
1) I just bought LW8
2) 3DS costs like over $7K aus
3) I dont want to just do viz work, id like to continue on with my other fun projects and animations

I'm like you, Ade -- I primarily do arch viz stuff, but i really like the flexibility of lightwave. basically the ONLY problem at this point that I have with lightwave is how SLOW the renderer is--even fprime for some of my scenes. But overall, the lw renderer is simple enough to use and the layout/modeler don't have annoying icons that I can't decipher....

harlan
07-25-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
I never said it was a flaw or limitation and as mentioned, many of our shots are logically broken down into background, character and visual FX passes. What most definately is a limitation is when you'd like to render elements in a single pass (say your characters for example) but have to break them into multiple passes just to get them to render - understand now?


Ever made 26 x 25 minute all-CGI television episodes @ HD resolution using 4 x teams of 15 artists with a turnaround of one episode per team per 8 weeks? All sharing the same renderfarm? If not, perhaps you should - you'd soon see the benefit of being able to get shots out (and approved by the director) in one hit. (and less of the amateur/idiot attitude please - just 'cause you think you're right doesn't make it so...)


Ummm, dude, I never quoted you, so why are you defending yourself here?

In reference to your last bit of info. Everything I do is HD res or Higher, using a team of 1, and done on a comparable timeframe considering the difference in staff & resources. That being said, and no disrespect intended, but I really don't find Captain Scarlet to be all that grand. So, just 'cause "you" think something is impressive doesn't make it so...

Aegis
07-25-2004, 04:02 PM
Hey Harlan,


Ummm, dude, I never quoted you, so why are you defending yourself here?

No, you didn't quote me but your attitude regarding single/multipass rendering certainly rubbed me up the wrong way - a blanket statement such as "only an amateur/idiot would render a high-end project in one pass" is opinionated and just plain wrong - there's a zillion different ways of reaching a goal in this business and sometimes you just have to go with whatever gets the shot done yes?

As far as Scarlet goes well, I guess you can't please everyone but a lot of blood, sweat and tears is going into this project and I'm guessing all you've seen so far is a few still images and a tiny DivX trailer - hopefully once it's released then people will judge it on its merits and not on any prior preconceptions. It does impress me but then I've seen a lot more of it than you have...

Anyway, no hard feelings - let's just agree to disagree eh?

Karmacop
07-25-2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Hervé
Hellooo Karmacop, dont be rude with our friends....:eek: :cool: :D ;)

Sorry, it's just that Ade's argument seems to be "I want the renderer to be how I want it". Sorry to be so blunt, and I'm sure I look like a jerk, but that's how I see it. Newtek will keep opening lightwave and will keep improving their already very capable renderer. It's not the best but it's very good. For him to say modeler can wait while the renderer and the sdk should be worked on is very biased.

Sorry for being a jerk, I just think that "modeler can wait" made me angry :p

riki
07-25-2004, 09:02 PM
Maybe mentioned already but looks like Vray is going to become a stand-alone APP. I wonder if that opens up possibilities for Lightwave?

Ade
07-25-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Karmacop
Sorry, it's just that Ade's argument seems to be "I want the renderer to be how I want it". Sorry to be so blunt, and I'm sure I look like a jerk, but that's how I see it. Newtek will keep opening lightwave and will keep improving their already very capable renderer. It's not the best but it's very good. For him to say modeler can wait while the renderer and the sdk should be worked on is very biased.

Sorry for being a jerk, I just think that "modeler can wait" made me angry :p

I say that out of faith that Modeller is already excellent!...
Renderer vastly needs updating and Fprime proved that...

Hervé
07-25-2004, 11:25 PM
He he... everything's fine.... Go Steve W. GO !!

'I think our best bet is F_prime.... but if v_Ray goes standalone.... it's even better (also for the competition....

Karmacop, xcuse me for being rude also....:D

harlan
07-26-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Aegis
Hey Harlan,



No, you didn't quote me but your attitude regarding single/multipass rendering certainly rubbed me up the wrong way - a blanket statement such as "only an amateur/idiot would render a high-end project in one pass" is opinionated and just plain wrong - there's a zillion different ways of reaching a goal in this business and sometimes you just have to go with whatever gets the shot done yes?

As far as Scarlet goes well, I guess you can't please everyone but a lot of blood, sweat and tears is going into this project and I'm guessing all you've seen so far is a few still images and a tiny DivX trailer - hopefully once it's released then people will judge it on its merits and not on any prior preconceptions. It does impress me but then I've seen a lot more of it than you have...

Anyway, no hard feelings - let's just agree to disagree eh?

Well, first off, I didn't have an attitude at all. You may have misinterpreted what I was saying, but the comments weren't directed at you to begin with. That should have been clear by the fact that I had "quoted & replied" to someone else altogether.

There's no hard feelings at all. The only thing that annoys me is how tempermental & uptight people are on these forums. People b.i.t.c.h and complain over the tiniest little things (and those little things are usually just light hearted humor), but they b.i.t.c.h. and jump down peoples throats anyway. Hell, I'm sure people will probably even complain about that comment because I said a "naughty word". ;) My internet life would be far more pleasant if people would just unwind a notch or two...it's simply ridiculous as it is.

There's also no disagreement. I thought I had made it clear in my post that I even render things in "one pass" all the time - and then proceeded to call myself (and others for that matter) amateur/idiots for limiting their workflow. You are an idiot to limit your workflow, but yes, it is necessary to do sometimes (now, don't flip out, I say "you are" as a general reference, not meaning "you" as in "aegis").

Now, about Captain Scarlet. Yes, all I've seen is snippets & images. My problem with it, is not so much the work itself, rather the project. I'm just so sick of seeing the same 'ol crappy sci-fi, wannabe realistic human, babylon-5, thunderbirds nonsense over and over and over and over, it's just so friggin cheesy. In my opinion (and all of this is just MY opinion) if people want to make crappy sci-fi shows, make them at least look unique. You could intercut practically everyone of the shows in this genre and the viewer would never know when you switched between the different shows.

The imagery of Scarlet looks great (although I'm not a huge fan of MoCrap - its always obvious when its being utilized), but the project itself just makes me want to drill into my skull with a dull screwdriver.

Yadda yadda.

harlan
07-26-2004, 12:35 AM
While I'm running my mouth:

Wanna know why Final Fantasy, Wing Commander, Titan AE, etc... etc... etc... all tanked at the box office??? Because people can watch that type of s#it all night at home on UPN. It's just the same thing over and over and

over

and

over

and

over

and

over

Hervé
07-26-2004, 01:05 AM
Wing Commander....? are you talking about the movie..... ah ah ! what a real crap piece of nothing ! if you talk about the movie, I know what I am saying here.... I palyed in it.... I was one of the monster (at that time I kinda specialize in wearing heavy FX costumes).... want to see a photo ?.... what a nightmare..... (the shooting) and what a s.... result !

Imagine : the guy who wrote the game wanted to be director on the gig.... he almost cried... and he only accepted to sale his rights IF he was the director.... ah ah... Imagine a bra directing a movie.... ah well.... at least good food, and I've meet a few cool actors....:rolleyes: :D

tokyo drifter
07-26-2004, 01:09 AM
What I've seen of Captain Scarlet reminded me this great game called Crimson Skies. Hopefully it is as creative and imaginative as that game is. Just keep an eye on rottentomatoes.com .


Because people can watch that type of s#it all night at home on UPN. People actually watch UPN? Wow.

jamesl
07-26-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by harlan
While I'm running my mouth:

Wanna know why Final Fantasy, Wing Commander, Titan AE, etc... etc... etc... all tanked at the box office??? Because people can watch that type of s#it all night at home on UPN. It's just the same thing over and over and
r

Aw, man! How come I always miss all the fun?? Jeez... oh yeah, and Harlan's right.
:)

j

Panikos
07-26-2004, 07:44 AM
This is fresh news :

http://www.vrayrender.com/exe/

VRay becomes standalone with room for expansion into various 3d-apps.

However, I still have serious doubts if its GI is applied to animated geometry.


:confused:

Ade
07-26-2004, 07:48 AM
LOL...been discussed through out the thread....

caesar
07-26-2004, 08:05 AM
". The only thing that annoys me is how tempermental & uptight people are on these forums. People b.i.t.c.h and complain over the tiniest little things..."

LOL Im included...LWers are really passionate, its kind of emotional relation to the software been fight in this foruns....

Hey, I LOVE Final Fantasy - movie!!!!! :mad:

Hervé
07-26-2004, 08:37 AM
did you tried it Panikos..? it looks like it's just for maya & max for now.... seeing the exporters names.....:( ;)

hey Caesar, dont be upset....;)

Titus
07-26-2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by cresshead

where's renderman on tv shows???????

Well, RenderMan is not a program, it's a specification and there are multiple renderers at this moment using this specification, your mileage may vary. I'm assuming you are talking about Pixar's RenderMan, one of those renderers.

You won't find much TV shows using RenderMan because isn't aimed for TV.

Hervé
07-26-2004, 08:39 AM
they say "probably" more.....

how probably M. NT ?:D

cresshead
07-26-2004, 11:16 AM
we're talking renderers here..so pixar's renderman should be scalable for t.v as well as feature film..and also be capable of producing nice renders in a timely fashion at t.v or H.D res...agies even mentioned that their studio started out with maya/renderman for capatain scarlet but had to ditch it in favour of lightwave as renderman was slower kicking out renders of an aceptable quality that lightwave's native renderer can manage out of the box.

i'd still like to see a list of t.v or feature based work that vray has done...their website doesn't really promote much in the way of film/t.v based projects

same goes for brazil and final render..though final render has some scanline studio fx shots.

i find it interesting that some here poo poo the work that lightwave has done in the render dept yet they shout the joy's of renderers that have zero or nr zero t.v / film exposre...such as brazil, vray and final render....weird!

oh and pixar's renderman IS a program....it's a RENDERING PROGRAM.

also on the subject some have stated that the current crop of cgi is much like the last and you could swap scene's and not notice....


i would like to hear fro them on what exactly they would consider "worthy cgi" and please...think about the commercial side of things before you write your choices down as all tv cgi shows need to sell adverts and most probably have a merchandising tie in for toys and collectables as well....

that's why we've had max steel, tiny planets and are getting captain scarlet made...

i'd like to add that i DO see good things in other renderers such as vray, messiah studio, brazil and final render and someof those capabilities could be nice to have in addition to what lightwave offers currently..

yet as i see it today studios are not ditching lightwave's renderer in favour of renderman,vray,finalrender or brazil in fact it appears to be quite the opposite...they drop renderman in favour of lightwave in some studio's which tells you that lightwave is adaptable and flexable, plus scalable and is fast/cheap/quality.

should i duck down for the barrage of replies heading my way??
...;)

Titus
07-26-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by cresshead

oh and pixar's renderman IS a program....it's a RENDERING PROGRAM.


Just to clear up the confusion. RenderMan is a specification created by Pixar. Photorealistic RenderMan, also known as PRMan and now called Pixar's RenderMan is a renderer, is the leader but just one of the many RenderMan renderers in the market.

RenderMan can be used for TV, actually I have several years using PRMan for TV ads. Do you know you can't render fields with a RenderMan renderer? this only an example of what were thinking the guys at Pixar when developing the specification.

If you want to use a renderer with programable shaders like PRMan or mental ray then you need a TD or a specific artist for writing shaders and optimizing scenes, this is just for making the best use of the program. I have seen too many companies starting using PRMan and not digging enough the technicalities of the program, ending in very poor and slow results.

cresshead
07-26-2004, 01:47 PM
unfortuanatly multi eposide tv shows are DRIVEN by their budget and how many shows are required so full featured rendering software like prman will take a team to render wrangle, shade and optomise scenes for use in that application

Where as lightwave can if it must be animated, lit and shaded by most cgi artists..so it's a more cost effective team based solution..

A 30 second advert can afford a render team and renderman as they only need to produce 900 frames for a 30 second advert

A cgi tv show like roughnecks or dan dare is more like 14 hours or 1,512,000 frames [1.5million frames]..as you can see there's quite a difference in the amount of frames needed for a 30 second advert compared to a t.v show...remember that captain scarlet is output to H.D rez.

30fps x 60 [secs per min] x 840 mins [14 hrs]=1,512,000 frames

and a 90 min cgi film is around 24x60x90 or 129,600 frames


that's quite a few finished frames eh?

and a few links for the app pixar's prman:
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/index.htm
https://renderman.pixar.com/products/tools/renderman.html

tokyo drifter
07-26-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
yet as i see it today studios are not ditching lightwave's renderer in favour of renderman,vray,finalrender or brazil in fact it appears to be quite the opposite...they drop renderman in favour of lightwave in some studio's which tells you that lightwave is adaptable and flexable, plus scalable and is fast/cheap/quality. Sources! I need sources!

But frankly, I really don't care. Who cares what renderer is used the most in TV or Movies? Too much energy is wasted over stupid crap like this.

cresshead
07-26-2004, 05:56 PM
true...yet you don't HAVE to read or reply!

a bit o banter is always good to write/read....different opinions.......

harlan
07-26-2004, 06:53 PM
While there are a few things to reply to here, I'll start by bringing up the point that LW allows for shaders, and quite a bit could be accomplished through the usage of custom shader code - just as one would do with Renderman.

People, myself included, have a tendency to try to do everything out of the box (or through 3rd party plugs) - while delving into the programming world would stand to benefit us all.

hmm...perhaps that doesn't make any sense.

tokyo drifter
07-26-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
true...yet you don't HAVE to read or reply!

a bit o banter is always good to write/read....different opinions....... Oh, dear god! I didn't read this thread! Do you think I'm crazy or something? I just read the beginning about the interesting VRAY exe project and then skimmed over the rest of the crap. I call it crap because comparing renderers by the merits of how many crappy tv shows or movies use it must be the worst rating scale ever.

harlan
07-26-2004, 08:34 PM
you should see the crappy shows!! ;)

Hervé
07-26-2004, 11:26 PM
all that for that..... well let's go backto F_Prime.... I still think this is going to be the only chance for Lw.... Go Steve... GO !!:D

So all of what we are saying is crap TokyoDrifter...? how can you bash our firend Cresshead ... he"s being here many times helping people and always very polite..... that's not very nice, you're insulting your own family...
Thank you man.;)

cresshead
07-27-2004, 12:05 AM
hey even "in-laws" have differences of opinion!....or family feud's!!!

personally i like the "crap" cgi shows..it's a much better crap than we get in other film/shows on t.v..ie games shows, reality shows and lets film idiots breaking the law shows!

later!:D