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veljko
07-15-2004, 08:01 AM
I was wondering-
I see some people here who are just posting "witty" remarks, never getting their hands dirty-
This got me to thinking..
What do you think of putting a policy that you cant post replies or comments untill you have posted atleast one thread with an image to the forums? Until you do that you can only be an observer-

I now to some people this idea might be stupid, but its a forum so voice your oppinions:)

Cos people that just critique other peoples work and dont have the curage or the skill of the people whoes work they comment kinda irittate me :)

well its just an idea and ideas are a dime a dosen..
;)

oh yea-one more idea- what do you think of a button"ban from posting to my threads"-
that would be a niffty button IMHO :D

Tiger
07-15-2004, 08:30 AM
"oh yea-one more idea- what do you think of a button"ban from posting to my threads"-
that would be a niffty button IMHO ".

I`m not sure, but it could work with the
"Add Bush to Your Ignore List", in the "Profile for Bush".

Just add the person to your ignore list and no more post from that person.

Or I may be wrong...let me know.

Martin Adams
07-15-2004, 08:43 AM
I agree with what you are saying. When someone posts their work, they want some positive feedback to help them improve it rather than it turn into an off-topic conversation or not really pose any use.

However, I would give two objections to your proposal. One is from my point of view and the other would be the site administrator/developer.

Firstly, from my point of view, I don't actually spend an awful lot of time using LW as I'd like. Since I'm far too busy with other things at this moment in time, I can't really get what I want out of it just yet ... watch this space. Iíve been new to 3D for about 2-3 years now (new to LW for about 1). I have a long way to go to and havenít really produced anything that I am happy with for critique by others. This would then mean that I would simply become an observer.

In that case, I would like to consider myself from the point of view that reflects the general audience. I may not be good at 3D (yet), but our audience isn't either. Does that mean my view and comments are worthless ... I wouldn't say so. However, I would say that the more seasoned artists here would provide a better critique though. Sometimes, knowing too much about the behind-the-scenes process can distract from the overall picture.

For the second objection, I'm a software developer as my day job, specialising with Internet stuff. Implementing a feature to only allow people to post after they have contributed would be a nightmare to implement. What would qualify as a substantial post to allow one to be worthy of commenting? How would that be moderated?

Again, the ban posting from my threads is a good idea/great idea in theory. But the implementation may be a nightmare. Especially since this forum is an off-the-shelf package and might not already have that feature in later versions.

Iím not one for posting non-sense comments when other peopleís work is involved. I agree, that can be rude. People need the motivation, encouragement and sensible criticisms. I feel what you propose is a drastic action which can affect the majority when it is the fault of the minority. But then again, I could be wrong.

Thatís my two pence.

Martin Adams
07-15-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Tiger
Just add the person to your ignore list and no more post from that person.

Well, you learn something every day. I presume the ignore list won't stop others from seeing the posts from the thread. Half way there but wouldn't that get wierd when people are replying to someone who is ignored?

Lightwolf
07-15-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by veljko
I was wondering-
I see some people here who are just posting "witty" remarks, never getting their hands dirty-
This got me to thinking..
What do you think of putting a policy that you cant post replies or comments untill you have posted atleast one thread with an image to the forums? Until you do that you can only be an observer-
Sorry, but that wouldn't work.

Two reasons:
a) You could just post a rendered lens flare to be able to participate (exaggerating a bit here ;) ).
b) Some, if not most of the work that I for example do is either NDAed, or something I don't want to disclose to the public (since this is how I treat my work done for customers).So I can't post it (well, I could post some old stuff, but I tend to forget once the work is done :) ). And since I hardly ever do any "private" work, well...

Cheers,
Mike - btw, that ignore button has been there for ages, great if some one, again, spams the forum.

danilo
07-15-2004, 09:38 AM
How abouth "I am genius,and don't want to read critics of my beutiful work"?
danilo

reverie
07-15-2004, 09:48 AM
Hey, Vel:

Kinda like your idea -- although there would be problems when it came to criteria, I bet. As Lightwolf said, someone could just post a lens flare or a rendered box, just to post something. :)

However, you're right about it taking courage to sling one of your works out there for the world to take a peek at -- especially if you're like me, not really confident about your stuff yet. So...

...I don't know that your idea could be implemented, but maybe you gave "the wits" something to think about anyway. ;)

veljko
07-15-2004, 10:43 AM
@tiger
The "ban Bush" i think should be a default setting:D
The ignore button i think does not ban someone from posting to your threads- or is it? Anyone tried it?

@Martin- thx for taking the time for souch a cool elaboration- IMHO you have good points there- a lot of people would just fake it and post whatever- blank screens or something-

I have a new idea- maybe thats better then the original one, and is more to my point-

Maybe we can put in "show lates work" button where you could see what the person who is givinng out advice is all about-
Cos that would be the button i woud like to press after reading someones post on my work-
Being a bad review or a good one-

I would like to know who is giving the advice-
Cos, im not that interested in opinions- everyone has an opinion-
Its OK to say i like it or I dont like it, or to complement someone if his work inspired you and stuff, but as far as critisizm goes opinions are a dime a dozen-

This way you can see If the criticzm is comming of a guy that is much more advanced then you and has grater skills then you- Now, his advice i would love to hear- Its like when you present your work before your classmates- You hear their opinions but whats really interesting is the opinion of your professor (offcourse only if you respect him and think him to be good at his job)
His oppinion you ponder on and take siriously-

Just brainstorming-
@ Danilo
I would not take my posts that sirously if I was you-
Chill :cool:

Martin Adams
07-15-2004, 11:07 AM
I like where you're heading with this. It would be nice to have a way to see how creditable someone is who is providing a comment. The thing that I do quite a lot is look to see if a user has a web link with their profile. This helps me to know a little more about the other person, what they've done, even why they're into 3D in the first place. Itís nice to see if other people are in it for the same reasons I am, hence the whole point of a community.

I agree with the fact that comments that on say "I don't like it" are useless. Not taking the time to give reasons as to why they don't like it or how it could be improved raises the question as to why they bothered to post in the first place. 3D is an art form, and hence is sometimes subjective with peopleís personal opinions. Not everyone likes the same things, just like not everyone will like Marmite (http://www.marmite.co.uk/) like I do. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, itís impossible to 'agree to disagree' until the reasons have been explored.

Things that I think would be quite useful on this site are the following:
- A small biography for the user. Are they in 3D professionally or simply hobbyists.
- As mentioned, a collection of work posted, like a mini portfolio.
- User rating by other users, like Amazon and eBay. It could show the credibility of someone in general. Everyone takes pride in themselves, hence why people can be so stubborn on some internet sites and just 'have' to prove everyone else wrong. Having a rating by that user will encourage them to be more helpful in future.

Again, while this all may sound nice in theory, I doubt if we'll see it in practice.

veljko
07-15-2004, 01:04 PM
Yes- I totaly agree-

I allways find it to be a nice suprice when someone has a website- the biography is a great idea and the rating just tops it all
-brilliant :cool:
What it all boils down to would be the rating, one work (i think a few works might be too much for the server space to hold?) and a "pro"-"hobby" status- this would be determend by one question - "do you do 3d for a living or as a hobby"-
It would be cool if the rating and the pro/hobby status is visable under the persons avatar- the work could be accessed by a button or something-

I think this would make people strive to better them selfe and would paint a more or less accurate picture of someones abillity- and what is most important CREDIBILITY
Dont know if our moderators are follownig this thread but it would be nice to maybe have them write a word or two on these ideas?
Kurtis?Paul Lara?Proton?
any toughts?

somnambulance
07-15-2004, 02:39 PM
I think your idea is stupid... I also like freedom of speech... I think maybe you shouldnít those people so seriously, instead of getting all pissed about it.

Oh yeah, and there should be a rule that if you click on that "ban Bush" button that your title permanently reads, "pampers"

retinajoy
07-15-2004, 02:47 PM
Maybe our user names should always be clickable to easily present our profile/biography. It's only clickable on those who started a thread or those who made a post last in a thread.

Maybe it should be a requirement to have a filled biography on joining the forums.

Most people are okay, but it is annoying when you just get an arrogant "It's crap" statement. But then, why take that opinion seriously anyway.

glassefx
07-15-2004, 02:58 PM
Well here is my big mouth opinion...

The idea to have a button to look at your critics stuff would be kinda girly - But, I like!

But to be honest guys... Its just the Web and this is just a forum, so I'd say go make-out with your loved one and/or drink a stout.

Stout, Beer, lager - Whatever has got something in it to soothe your nerves from the break-down you get after reading your bad reviews... LOL!

peace guys!

Tiger
07-15-2004, 03:08 PM
"Oh yeah, and there should be a rule that if you click on that "ban Bush" button that your title permanently reads, "pampers".

Now ...whats wrong with pampers? Everyone (allmost) use them a few years of their lifes. Great product!

veljko
07-15-2004, 03:21 PM
@somnambulance-please read the entire thread before exercising your freedom of speach

@glassefx- you are funny:)ill give you that-

@retinajoy- The new idea behind this thread is to have a more comprehencive idea of who are you talking with- I think it would be cool to know thoes things-
Makes people more then just oddly named funny avatars-
And since we are here to disscus (mainly im talking about gallery finished and WIP sections) on LW and 3D it would be only logical to know how are people standing in thoes subjects..

it seem a prefectly logical idea to me--

Silkrooster
07-15-2004, 03:22 PM
I beleive their are a lot of people who are just learning how to use lightwave. After all I thought that was the intention of this forum, to help others. So for those that have some time under their belt, but not yet good enough to post artwork. Shouldn't those people be allowed to help those that have not learned the same thing yet? After all those that do have profesional skills with Lightwave can not help everybody. Besides if a post is giving wrong imformation, I am sure somebody will correct that person. Also if you don't like a certain poster, I am sure you can add that person to your block list and if that is not good enough you can report that poster to the moderators. Hopefully that will never happen, but there are certain people who think they own this forum and can say remarks that are very disrespectful to others, not to mention the language that some use.
I for one beleive everybody has the right to remark on others work. Assuming that they do not belittle the artwork. After all we are suppose to help others. So I am sure there is a way to explain why their artwork needs to be better without making the artist feel incompetent.

danilo
07-15-2004, 04:03 PM
I have a very good solution for you guys.Post ALWAYS a good work.No bad critics there,no need of cheking peoples beckground.
Problem solved.
danilo

reverie
07-15-2004, 04:09 PM
Maybe our user names should always be clickable to easily present our profile/biography.

Good idea. :)


so I'd say go make-out with your loved one and/or drink a stout.

Even better idea. :D

somnambulance
07-15-2004, 09:32 PM
No, if you are trying to make rules against it, I will take advantage of my freedom now.

somnambulance
07-15-2004, 09:51 PM
Ok veljko, I read through your chapters of text. You should learn to sum things up better. (there is my "wise" comment). The only thing that really makes any sense to do is the "current work" idea you had. I think there should be a list of threads started under each profile. That shouldnt be something that would be to hard to program in the new version of Vbulletin.

sbrandt
07-15-2004, 10:07 PM
I started decades ago with an inborn dislike for all art critics. I mean who are THEY to judge MY work... hell they can even DO what I do! But after many years in the real world I've come to realize the worth of critics.

So... I'll vote NOT to censor the art critics.

1. It's a truly fascist thing to do.

2. Some of the best art critics in the world do not draw or paint themselves.

3. It doesn't take a working artist to understand or appreciate the craft.

4. It's immature and arrogant to think that no one is capable of crafting words the way you craft line and form and color.

Besides… if you ever find a critic who likes your
work, who works for right publication, you could be
a household name in no time at all.

hybrid2829
07-15-2004, 11:11 PM
hey man, im one of those people who post witty remarks. I have submitted a couple of images, and without the people who make the witty remarks and crtis, how am i supposed to improve. If someone crits me, i dont care if they even know what LW is, im just stoked to see that someone would take time to write back.

Tiger
07-15-2004, 11:11 PM
I think no one mind critics-but it should be Useful critics. Not comments like " I`m much better than you" or "put down the pipe" from persons who think they are so great because they know something about L.W.. Thats useless and helps no one to advance in L.W. 3D!

To be able to filter out such persons-Yes!

Overall-this forum is Great. I have learned so many things here.

Martin Adams
07-16-2004, 04:20 AM
I agree that banding people as having a worthless opinion is wrong. The more the rules and regulations that are forced onto people, they will only resent it even more. Background checking other users isnít the solution. But giving people the ability to show what their work is like without having to learn how to build a web site could be useful for those who want it. It can also help those replying to the work to know what background the artist has and give advice on the common pitfalls that are faced between beginner and advanced levels.

Everyone is entitled to their freedom of speech, provided that it is taken in good faith from everyone else. I'm sure if someone offends everyone on the board and they get kicked off, no one would forgive them because they are simply exercising their 'freedom of speech'. Everything everyone has replied with here is simply freedom of speech, but in a way to examine people's feeling on the subject in good humour.

I would however say that we need to understand the difference between critics and critiques. A critic by definition can be someone who is an opponent or enemy. A critique is an assessment, analysis or evaluation and in some cases an appraisal.

In my opinion, the critiques are worth more than the critics.


Originally posted by danilo
I have a very good solution for you guys.Post ALWAYS a good work.No bad critics there,no need of cheking peoples beckground.
Problem solved.
danilo

I like the theory behind this. :D


Originally posted by hybrid2829
Ö I have submitted a couple of images, and without the people who make the witty remarks and crtis, how am i supposed to improve.

I agree with what you are saying here hybrid2829. There is no problem with witty constructive comments. Giving suggestions or comparisons can be useful and enjoyable if itís humorous. But what about the ones that simply says, ďI think it looks like a big cheese pieĒ. Some may consider it witty, but how could that be used for improvements? (Assuming the image posted isnít of the pie or cheese variety).

Weetos
07-16-2004, 06:41 AM
Hi all

I don't think it's a good idea... If one goes to the restaurant and dislike the food because it's too hot or whatever, he sure can tell the chief about it, even if he doesn't know anything about cooking.

To me, everyone's opinion is good as long it's said honestly, I understand that being critized by a newbie may hurt a little, but hey if the artwork deserves that critic, just take it for what it is : a constructive way to improve something you didn't notice.

We all know that there are some very good artists visiting this board, we also know how valuable is a critic without knowing about the skills of the guy who gave it


Cheers

Weetos

art
07-16-2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Martin Adams

Things that I think would be quite useful on this site are the following:
- A small biography for the user...Are they in 3D professionally or simply hobbyists.
- ...collection of work posted [...] mini portfolio.
- User rating by other users, like Amazon and eBay.

We already have a place to enter a short info, in profile. Many users seem to leave it blank though (protecting their "precious" privacy?). User rating would be great along with a (optional?) portfilio.

Prohibiting those who has not posted any artwork from commenting other's work might have some merits, but I can't see how it could be efficiently implemented. As long as we are allowed to post, a determined critic could open a new thread and comment there.

I have not posted any work (nothing I'm satisfied with, yet), and I tend not to comment on other's work unless something peculiar cathes my eye. I just feel "not qualified" oftentimes (as a newbie + part time hobbyist).

art
07-16-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Weetos
To me, everyone's opinion is good as long it's said honestly, I understand that being critized by a newbie may hurt a little, but hey if the artwork deserves that critic, just take it for what it is : a constructive way to improve something you didn't notice.


That is true. The problem is, that once in a while there comes a person who likes to criticize just for the heck of it without being constructive and/or helpful in any way.

For example

I see comment like:
"the ears looks a bit too boxy/flat and unrealistic" as a good comment

and something like

"why do you use radiosity to preview your model" as something less usefull.

or the "classic" organic vs. arch/mechanical modeling comments...


P.S: by "less useful" I don't mean "completely useless"

Weetos
07-16-2004, 10:29 AM
That is true. The problem is, that once in a while there comes a person who likes to criticize just for the heck of it without being constructive and/or helpful in any way.

I agree, but veljko shouldn't worry about such critics, he's among the best LW artists (well IMHO), plus he has his own particular style.

veljko
07-16-2004, 12:59 PM
First off thx for that vote of confidance Weetos:)-
Second, i just posted this thread to stir things up a bit:) in the beggining- Then, during the disscusion some cool ideas popped up-
mainly the "rating" system-This i belive is a cool idea. The mandatory biography is also a cool idea- These things give you a better picture of who you are talking to and that is rather important, atleast for me-
the ratings would stop people critisizing just to feel powerfull when trashing someone and would focus the comments becouse everyone i think would like to see 5 stars under his name rather then one-This is not that much a matter of pride but a sence that your comments obiously helped someone when a group of people decided to reward you with giving you 5 stars-
Specially when you dont have the time to chase everyones ideas and suggestions- I dont have that much spare time, and you cant really test someones suggestion untill you actually do it- Sometimes you have to pick who you will listen to and whos idea makes more sence- In these ceases (and this does happen often) i woul like to know who is giving the advice-

These things DO NOT break the all important freedom of speach on which you insist so vigoreusly:)
so, please enough with thoes comments-:)

o yeah,
@somnambulance- i aproached this thread as a brainstorming session- in souch an inviroment things are often a bit hectick-

Weetos
07-16-2004, 02:40 PM
me again ;)

I really understand what you mean, veljko, and you're right when you say that it's useful to know who is giving an advice about your artwork. I also have to admit that some people like to give their opinion in a non-constructive way about someone's else work, worse, sometimes it sounds kinda rude. you'll see such a behaviour everywhere, I mean not only on the web.

I'm one of the guys that are not enough self confident and not enough talented (hope it is the right word :rolleyes: ) to post my work on forums. You won't see my work on the web either because I don't have much time to work on personal projects and the rest (professional) is not my property. That is said, and even if my advices aren't the best around, I know I'm capable to notice when something looks wrong and what can be done to try to make it better - it's true I may be wrong, but you're free to ignore my comments. I'm sure there's lots of people like me.

For what you're concerned, it's true that I'm not going to give any advice as we're not 'playing' in the same category. There are a lot of people on this forum, but only a few of them are well known all over the place : that means you can count on them because they have nothing left to prove, so listen to them and feel free to ignore the others, there's no big deal.

Anyway, keep up the good work and please don't hesitate to post your artwork which you can be proud of

Sincerely

Weetos

retinajoy
07-16-2004, 02:53 PM
Weetos - I think you should post your work. The advice and tips from people will help you improve. Everyone has a different perspective on things; and that is when constructively said very helpful. I have posted two pieces of work that I was able to and found the crit very useful.

I have seen people post what could be classed as very poor, but they got good critiques and because of those critiques, ended up with a nice piece of good looking work. If they hadn't posted, they may have not moved on as fast. Just a thought. It's good and encouraging to all of us watching art evolve.

:D

Weetos
07-16-2004, 03:28 PM
Well, I guess I should do so, the truth is that most of the time I'm about to post something when I'm not sure enough about how to texture this or how to model that, but when it comes to press the submit button to post my wip, I don't why I end up going back to LW trying to find the answer by myself - sometimes it works, sometimes I get stuck and use a workaround. I can't help it, and I know it's not the best way to improve, when you can get advices from people more experienced and/or looking at it from a different point of view.

So, retinajoy, I'm gonna post something in the wip section :D
it's something I've been working on as a personal project, and I need some feedback before going further. pheww this time I swear I'm gonna press the submit button :p

Thank you retinajoy for pushing me in the right direction

Cheers,


Weetos

Tiger
07-16-2004, 03:36 PM
Now I understood:

"The ignore lists are used for those people who's messages you wish not to read. By adding someone to your ignore list, those messages posted by these individuals will be hidden when you read a thread".

Very simple to use!

Matt
07-17-2004, 04:23 AM
veljko - I see where you're going with this (and why).

Would this rule extend to only LightWave work? Or would it encompass anything LightWave related (that has been produced by the user). While I have posted images (and you can see some of my work from my tag link) I'm no way as prolific as some of you guys!

I do however post more than my fair share in the feature requests forum!!! ;)

pauland
07-17-2004, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by veljko
I was wondering-
I see some people here who are just posting "witty" remarks, never getting their hands dirty-
This got me to thinking..
What do you think of putting a policy that you cant post replies or comments untill you have posted atleast one thread with an image to the forums? Until you do that you can only be an observer-


It's a bad idea. I would be banned from posting, but that's not what makes it a bad idea. If you want to post something then you should expect some comment - acclaim or criticism - and learn from it. the only problem I see is that some people can be offensive or personal with their remarks, but there's no correlation with those people and any lightwave ability.

There are some great LWers that just don't know how to behave themselves!

Imagine if you extended this idea to other things. You couldn't comment on football unless you played. You couldn't comment on cars uness you could build one. You couldn't comment on music if you can't play an instrument/have made a record.

So, no I don't think it's a good Idea.

I guess that like a good movie critic who probably hasn't made any films himself, I try sometimes to express an opinion on someone's work if I think it might help them, even if I couldn't do work of that quality myself. I don't think i've ever been offensive, sometimes wrong, but I like to think I can sometimes contribute to a debate.

Paul

veljko
07-17-2004, 05:10 AM
The "no posting untill you post" rule has Im afrraid touch some nerves with the freedom of speech blah blah crowd-
I on the other hand belive that the ability to voice your oppinion is a privilege not a right-
What I really like is the mandatory biography (that could be accesed in the threads by clicking a button "bio" or something like that) and the rating system where other people in the forums rate you- This i think wuold just point out to a few guys who are cool friendly helping people- Cos no one would bother to rate someone unless he really thinks he deservs a 5 staa rating- Just like threads- You dont see many 3 star rated threads only 5 star ones..
the button with which you acces one image from a user that would be located under his avatar for example is a cool idea- This i would NOT put to be a mandatory thing- But if someone wants to place souch an image it would be cool, so that you know the spans of his abilities-

:)

pauland
07-17-2004, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by veljko
I on the other hand belive that the ability to voice your opinion is a privilege not a right

Unfortunately, that makes you sound like a dictator.

Paul

veljko
07-17-2004, 05:24 AM
Why?
Does everyone have the right to speka in parlament? NOPE- to speak in the parlament you have to earn it- becouse it is a privilege to speak in parlament. Can i just pop on by to the UN conference and voice my oppinion? I dont think sou-
Are thoes institutions a part of a dictatorship?Noupe-

------disclamer--------------------------------------------------------------
I AM NOT SAYING THAT OUR FORUMS ARE AS IMPORTANT OR IN ANY WAY AS SIRIOUS AS THE INSTITUTIONS MENTIONED ABOVE
------disclamer--------------------------------------------------------------


:) IMHO a dictatorship is not a bad thing if the dictator is a great and wise man- The problem does not lie in the dictatorship but in the dictators-

------disclamer-------------------------------------
I DO NOT SAY I AM A GREAT AND WISE MAN-
------disclamer-------------------------------------

We digress-
What do you think about the ide of the biography, ratings and "one work"?

Weetos
07-17-2004, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by pauland
there's no correlation with those people and any lightwave ability.

There are some great LWers that just don't know how to behave themselves!


I totally agree !!!

The biography/rating is a good idea, but I'm not sure about the "one work" thing ... if it were to exist, it should only be a 'flag' (in the boolean way) saying whether or not a user has posted artwork or not and providing a link to it, without any consequence on posting ability - but this would require a huge amount of work for moderators ...

Cheers

Weetos

lwaddict
07-19-2004, 02:03 PM
"Cos, im not that interested in opinions- everyone has an opinion-
Its OK to say i like it or I dont like it, or to complement someone if his work inspired you and stuff, but as far as critisizm goes opinions are a dime a dozen"


Doesn't exactly sound like you want to hear anything from anyone unless it's positive...so don't bother posting your stuff.

There's good and bad out there, deal with it.

As far as trying to come up with an ingenius way to filter out what you don't want to hear...it's called a power plug, just go to the wall and pull on it.