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eblu
03-25-2003, 11:11 AM
http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/11/15/cocoa.html

so why exactly are we subjected to the Screamernet rendering experience? ack files begone!

mlinde
03-25-2003, 02:49 PM
I guess the only problems with this concept today, are that :
1) ZeroConf/Rendezvous is not installed in Windows
2) ZeroConf/Rendezvous does not exist in any version of Mac OS prior to 10.2
3) ZeroConf/Rendezvous requires cocoa applications, hence killing the compatibility with OS 9

So, to really take advantage of this technology, someone has to get Microsoft to implement a compatible version of ZeroConf, NewTek has to alienate a large portion of their user base that has not upgraded from either OS 9 or 10.1.x, and the code in the current version of LW has to be upgraded to be cocoa. Then, all the 10.1 or 9.x users have to pay $130 for an OS upgrade, whether they want to or not, and huge portions of the code in LightWave and LWSN have to be rewritten, first as cocoa apps then with ZeroConf implemented in those cocoa apps.

It's a cool idea, and has lots of potential. There's a long way to go to get it implemented. Unless, of course, you happen to have a few hundred thousand dollars lying around to "expedite" the process for Microsoft, NewTek, and all the Mac OS 9 and 10.1 users...

hmmm. sounds a bit testy. I like the idea of Rendezvous, but since ZeroConf isn't even standardized yet, it's a big gamble for anyone developing a cross-platform application like LightWave, and an expensive option for the end user who may or may not care about the features it could bring about. I think this type of technology could become practical and standardized in 2-3 years, but until then be satisfied with your ack files...

eblu
03-25-2003, 02:59 PM
o i agree, whole heartedly.
but....
i'll b darned if i'm gonna accept any assertions that Screamernet is State of the Art technology.

bsides...
who said Newtek had to develop it?
there are several scremernet controllers out there, that take control of screamernet and set it up for you. Why not one based on rendezvous?

and anyway, its not like there isn't Going to be a zeroconf implementation in windows, its not very far off.

hey, don't listen to me,
this is just my way of stirrin up trouble

paintboy
03-25-2003, 03:39 PM
who made the assertion that screamernet is state of the art?
elegant....no.
could it be easier...yes.
hard...not really.

screamernet just is not that damn hard(that is comming from a Pinheaded
creative type) following Jon Bakers simple instructions it took me about
15 min. ONE TIME....now it just works when i want it to.

we cant even get a damn maintenance patch that works, so how long do you suppose it would take to get a "working" cocoa version of LW?:eek:

be careful what you wish for...
;)

Beamtracer
03-25-2003, 05:04 PM
I can see why Newtek has kept the user interface of Lightwave basically consistent across platforms.

However, when it comes to networking I think that unique OS features should be taken advantage of, whether it be Mac, Windows or Linux. If one platform has a unique feature, take advantage of it.

If someone sets up a network of Macs, the feature could be switched on. If someone networks a Mac with Windows machines, the feature would be switched off.

Just because Microsoft hasn't given a feature its blessing shouldn't mean that other platforms don't take advantage of it.

mlinde
03-25-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by eblu
bsides...
who said Newtek had to develop it?
there are several scremernet controllers out there, that take control of screamernet and set it up for you. Why not one based on rendezvous?

Unfortunately, it requires more than just a controller with ZeroConf capabilities -- the LWSN node application needs it as well, so even if a controller came out with ZeroConf built in and ready to go, you'd need support from NewTek in the implementation of ZeroConf into LWSN. Two pieces of the same puzzle...but hey! Jon! Interested in spending the little time needed to make the LWSN Controller ZeroConf (assuming it's cocoa already...)

mlinde
03-25-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
I can see why Newtek has kept the user interface of Lightwave basically consistent across platforms.

However, when it comes to networking I think that unique OS features should be taken advantage of, whether it be Mac, Windows or Linux. If one platform has a unique feature, take advantage of it.

If someone sets up a network of Macs, the feature could be switched on. If someone networks a Mac with Windows machines, the feature would be switched off.

Just because Microsoft hasn't given a feature its blessing shouldn't mean that other platforms don't take advantage of it.

The issue with LightWave isn't the GUI being cross-platform, actually the majority of the core code was supposed to be as well, to make the development cycle shorter. However, based on the experiences with 7.5b, maybe it isn't anymore, and if that's the case you are on the money Beam...

eblu
03-26-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by mlinde
Unfortunately, it requires more than just a controller with ZeroConf capabilities -- the LWSN node application needs it as well, so even if a controller came out with ZeroConf built in and ready to go, you'd need support from NewTek in the implementation of ZeroConf into LWSN. Two pieces of the same puzzle...but hey! Jon! Interested in spending the little time needed to make the LWSN Controller ZeroConf (assuming it's cocoa already...)

mlinde, paintboy,
sorry, a few of your assertions are wrong.
now i'm not optimistic about Newtek developing anything new, but I AM trying to stir up an interesting discussion ;)

easy? I grant u that this is subjective. But I would like to point out that Screamernet is so complex, and difficult to understand, That Newtek HAS NOT CREATED ANY DOCUMENTATION FOR IT! IN ALL THE TIME IT HAS EXISTED! So at least NEWTEK agrees with me there. ;) this isnt technology, technology has documentation! This is voodoo. And frankly, I have found that screamernet is not easy to set up. Things that work for some, dont work for others, the user-level tutorials all conflict, and Newtek is tight lipped when it comes to supporting it. It took a talented user to identify and create a workaround for a bug, that is the result of years of neglect in the messaging system, and yet it still does not work reliably, for a very large percentage of intelligent, and educated computer users across the world, and Nobody at Newtek knows why.

there are several ways one could approach a zeroconf scremernet renderer controller app, that doesnt require any significant hand holding from newtek.
the trick is to use -3 rendering, and Bypass Newtek's own antiquated messaging system. In this way we can treat Screamernet as a Plugin for a completely new network rendering system. This is not by any means a New idea, i have read of a few already shipping products that already do this (PC only). You simply treat screamernet as a cog in your app, in this way you can create a better user interface for the rendering system, add nodes on the fly, manage the network during a render, and all without one lick of help from Newtek.

the idea that zeroconf is cocoa only? wrong. Rendezvous is supported in carbon as well as the command line environment, and its not like you cant mix and match cocoa and carbon as needed, at almost any level.

quote directly from apple's dev site:
"There are three APIs for registering and browsing for services using Rendezvous.
NSNetServices - for use in Cocoa applications.
CFNetServices - for use in Carbon applications.
DNSServiceDiscovery - for use in command line tools."

guys,
i dont think Newtek has any desire to get involved with network rendering again, especially after the last abortive attempt, but zeroconf is like a wet dream come true for them. it simplifies the work they have to do, and it, levels the playing field for pcs and macs (once those silly PCs catch up) for network support. It also reduces the mountains of research one must do in order to effectively move files from one computer to another, reliably in a platform/network agnostic way. So I want them to know that I as a customer, am highly interested in seeing this in their products in the very near future.

hey, its all in fun anyway ;)
add sauce, bring to boil, and stir... ;)

mlinde
03-26-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by eblu
the idea that zeroconf is cocoa only? wrong. Rendezvous is supported in carbon as well as the command line environment, and its not like you cant mix and match cocoa and carbon as needed, at almost any level.

quote directly from apple's dev site:
"There are three APIs for registering and browsing for services using Rendezvous.
NSNetServices - for use in Cocoa applications.
CFNetServices - for use in Carbon applications.
DNSServiceDiscovery - for use in command line tools."


Regardless eblu, Rendezvous only exists in 10.2 or later versions of the Mac OS. This doesn't solve the issue for people who (by choice or force) are still in 9.x or 10.1.x, and application developers who try and force OS upgrades on their clients usually get the wrong end of the stick from those clients.

As far as the other development issues, how do you communicate with LWSN via Rendezvous? LWSN has no Rendezvous technology built in, and it is the core of ALL rendering processes outside of LightWave (Mode 2 or 3). To render a file, or frame, or partial frame, you NEED to communicate to LWSN. Maybe it's lack of coffee (I'm only on my second) but to me it's like talking to a deaf person. If they aren't looking at you and lip reading, they don't know you are even trying. But, if I'm wrong, correct me, please!

paintboy
03-26-2003, 09:14 AM
eblu
not against your thinking....i am always in line for easy!
but sort of a pipe dream under the current circumstances.
the last LW update is either a sad statement of Newteks commitment
to the Mac platform, or lack of "re$our$es"...either way it does not bode well.

BTW if you ever need to use screamer net, just drop me a line,works great here! :p

eblu
03-26-2003, 09:14 AM
there are tried and tested ways of communicating with screamernet, what i am proposing is an application that is Rendezvous enabled AND versed in ScreamerNet's language. This new app will sit in the same directory as Screamernet, and be responsibe for Screamernet's behavior. It will launch and quit screamernet, it will tell it what to do. This application will then be able to speak to other instances of itself across a network, and get instructions and possibly files for screamernet. so it acts as an intermediary, doing all the leg work to get all the stuff together in one safe little locally accessible directory that screamernet can see with its "shortsighted and almost crippled vision", and then it tells screamernet, either through a job or ack file or a LWSNController cmdLine file, what frame to render.
It would all be better facilitated if Netwek resleased a command line renderer, for os X, bc then we'd just issue a command. But it has and does work otherwise.

All I'm saying is, keep the doddering old screamernet doing what it does best (rendering a single frame at a time) and let the younger and much more nimble technologies take care of the rest... communicating, moving files, installing, and organizing a rendering network. Its been done b4, it can be done again, and the kicker is... that it is easier to do today than it was when they did it the first time. All thanks to Rendezvous.

as for os 9... its a bad situation, i really feel for those poor guys who do 3-d under os 9... but this is business. os 9 is not an active bed of 3-d development, or any development for that matter. It shouldn't take too much illumination to see the 12 story high, bold, all caps, marked in red, neon glowing, underlined, writing on the wall there.
My suggestion: update when you can, bc 3d under mac os 9 is going nowhere really really fast. Otherwise... you should not ever do anything different from what youve been doing, bc it will only upset you.

eblu
03-26-2003, 09:37 AM
paintboy,
thanx for the offer, and i Hear you about the state of things... its why i volunteer my opinions on these boards.
If one guy from newtek reads my stuff, and then goes and educates himself/herself about the right way to do function "N" on mac os X. Then my future experience w/ LW is the better for it.

mlinde
03-26-2003, 09:38 AM
Ah. Clarity.

Your proposal appears to be sound. It should be possible to work like that. I DO think that the idea of LWSN/Screamernet having ZeroConf built in would be a better solution, if only to clean up clutter, and to provide ease of use and setup.

Ideally, the LW installation would have options like "full installation," "minimum installation," and "render node installation," which would install the appropriate files on a node, and set up any automatic processes. There's a setup for this with After Effects that works nicely, IMHO.

In the meantime, a ZeroConf outside application would be nice, although I would have to upgrade my render nodes to 10.2 from 10.1...

eblu
03-26-2003, 11:22 AM
i came up with a name for this hypothetical renderer controller app:

V ger

;)