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blabberlicious
05-25-2004, 10:15 AM
Anyone else get this - I can LMB Move the bone tip ok, but it I want to scale the size of the bone along it's own length using RMB....
Booom!!!- the Bone Mover Guide shoots off into infinity - taking the bones with it.

This 'freaking' also happens when you select the entire contiguous hierarchy and LMB the bone tips tip into place. After about two or three movements, it gives up and trashes the bones.

Anyone else get this? I'm on a mac running LW8 and 10.3.3

Secondly:
To quote the manual: 'Once you get the selected bones tip where you want it you can hit the space bar and all the bones will be moved to the correct place.'

OK, but what it doesn't say is that you have no option to bail out on the edit - if you don't spacebar, or select another tool, IT APPLIES THE EDIT ANYWAY (???). This means you have to reload the scene, as there is no UNDO.

Thirdly: Why are they no positional axis constraints on the tip or bone movers?. It means you can't position accuratley in the Perspective window, and have to arse about in side views.

I really don't understand that functionality. Am I missing something?

Any help/comments appreciated.

blabberlicious
05-25-2004, 10:16 AM
Here are my bones after using RMB Tip Move, well on the way to a distant galaxy....

jvavra
05-25-2004, 03:12 PM
Hey that also happens on using Bone Twist. So I don't even use it.

Proton,
I have seen you use it in previous videos, can you tell us what is happening with this?

blabberlicious
05-25-2004, 09:04 PM
arrrgh! You are right - the same bug with Bone Twist.

Right Mouse Button Move instantly trashes bones...

I've tried A Tablet & Mouse and both Input Modes in Preferences - same result.

Would anyone else kind enough (or brave enough), please confirm/reproduce this?

I really find it hard to believe this got released in this state.





BTW I'm on a Mac, 10.3.3

Chingis
05-26-2004, 01:19 PM
All I know is I was messing around with the bones tools on an old rig of mine (in particular bone twist) and the next thing I know my whole skeleton is completely hosed... gone! I close down lightwave and reopen the scene and lo and behold - there are no more bones in my scene... nada. Did I save after LIghtwave jacked my scene? Nope, it was nice enough to save its disasterousness for me. Rather counter-productive if you ask me.
So yes, I confirm these tools wierdnesses.

Chris

PeterJ
05-26-2004, 02:49 PM
I cant duplicate your problem on my PC.
As soon as I can I'll get an answer.

blabberlicious
05-26-2004, 02:56 PM
Chingis - What Platform are you on?

Any other takers? try it out on some of the LW8 sample rigs.

theo
05-27-2004, 09:09 AM
This is waaaaaay off topic but the Path Move tool has some of these tendencies as well. Could be genetics....

Buddy- if you want to move a live keyframe on a curve on a particular axis hang on for a ride because you'll be doin' the mouse seesaw dance.... waaaaaaaaaaaaaay right.... whoa, whoa waaaaaaaaaaay left........ whoa, whoa come back here you stupid key frame......here let's seesaw this little bastard into place...aaaaahhh there we go....

Scott_NewTek
05-27-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
I really find it hard to believe this got released in this state.

BTW I'm on a Mac, 10.3.3


*yawn* Maybe a fix could be implemented now that the issue is known... maybe some human made an error... maybe all the ideal code in the world is written and stored in a crypt at the center of a pyramid waiting for Indiana Jones to find it and solve all the world's problems... or not.

Continuous refinement is the only process known to produce usable products that are released to the public. If all features and uses were 100% tested and verified by all possible test cases the product would NEVER be released.

While we do have a very sizable Beta team, changes to the system were being implemented up to the last practical moment and then re-tested, however, with a highly anxious user community, a need for business spreadsheets to balance, and a very tired development team we still delayed the release of the product in favor of making it the best we could until diminishing returns allowed the release of the tool. Again we are not *trying* to torture anyone here, but this system is complex and it *will* have some bugs. Our commitment is to fix it. Tell us the problems and we will work on them. Tell us we ship inferior broken code for pleasure and without concern, and you will not be helping your cause.

Thanks for the report. :) Have a nice day.

-Scott

theo
05-27-2004, 10:46 AM
Don't believe a word Scott_Newtek is saying.... He and his miserable compatriates in the Newtek spawn center are feriously hatching up plots that are designed to produce extruciating and debilitating screams of pain from US, the slight, sweet, delicate and freshly hatched Lightwave babies.

New to the world we burst forth radiating life only to have it sucked out of us in a violent fashion by a tangled twisted hand of malevolent binary beast.

Scott_NewTek
05-27-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by theo
Don't believe a word Scott_Newtek is saying.... He and his miserable compatriates in the Newtek spawn center are feriously hatching up plots that are designed to produce extruciating and debilitating screams of pain from US, the slight, sweet, delicate and freshly hatched Lightwave babies.

New to the world we burst forth radiating life only to have it sucked out of us in a violent fashion by a tangled twisted hand of malevolent binary beast.

Dang, looks like I need to work on my poker face... you saw right through me!!!!


(LOL!)

theo
05-27-2004, 11:02 AM
See... that's why I am here to watch this corner of the forums... to cry out in warning when the beasts come out of their dungeon-like torture chambers in search of new Lightwave babies that have not yet had their minds and bodies fully twisted in grief and pain.

Sigh.... tough job, but someone has to do it.....

blabberlicious
05-27-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
Tell us we ship inferior broken code for pleasure and without concern, and you will not be helping your cause.

Boy that was a pretty facetious response there!

You obviously needed to get that off your chest. Fair enough, but just I posted a bug report, not a suggestion that you took pleasure in selling broken code.???

I was trying to establish if it was just a mac bug. I took the trouble to post screen captures and ask posters to CONFIRM the bug before I emailed NT, as I had no idea if it was platform/machine specific.

So, enough of the aggressive courteousness - it's not very dignified.

jvavra
05-27-2004, 12:52 PM
I tested both the Bone Twist and the other one you had a problem with on my pc and they work. The mac I was using has a problem with those tools. Hope an update will come out soon.

Haven't really used bone twist as it is on the pc anyway. Doesn't really do much. Has anybody been able to get it to work properly for them. I can twist all day long on the pc and nothing happens. So maybe the pc has a bug too, it just doesn't have the infinate line.

Scott_NewTek
05-27-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Boy that was a pretty facetious response there!

You obviously needed to get that off your chest. Fair enough, but just I posted a bug report, not a suggestion that you took pleasure in selling broken code.???


This is not the first time you have implied such things.


[i]
I was trying to establish if it was just a mac bug. I took the trouble to post screen captures and ask posters to CONFIRM the bug before I emailed NT, as I had no idea if it was platform/machine specific.

So, enough of the aggressive courteousness - it's not very dignified. [/B]

Your statement about our release was independant of the bug-which is my point. To be direct, I do not criticize your animations, please do not criticize our release. I am more than happy to help you resolve problems, it is the nature of complex software systems and unrestricted use to have issues, and it is the pliability of software that makes things work... eventually. And, as I mentioned, refinement is the process that allows that. That is all I am saying. I feel as frustrated as you when there are broken items in the system, and it takes a very large amount of patience to see things through to repair. I am fortunate enough to have the power to manipulate the code, and you are not. And I understand that, and I am the same when it comes to applications I use. However, you *are* fortunate enough that I am here to help you accomplish what you need, and that I am willing to do so. Take advantage of that and we will both 'win' at getting a better product out to the user community.

I can only add that former members of the programming staff were not (to my knowledge) so willing to jump into the fray. Perhaps I am stupid for doing so, but as many of the users on the forum, I am passionate about making LW a GREAT product, not just another product. So, here I am.

cresshead
05-27-2004, 05:55 PM
scott, your walking the path that no one has walked before...so we are aware of your occasional stumbles when tread a new path...we are just the ones who follow in your footsteps//which is a much easier journey...so please know that we are greatful for your code you write and though some needs tweeking and refining we are greatful for your work your doing here.

steve g

Adrian Lopez
05-27-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
To be direct, I do not criticize your animations, please do not criticize our release.You're not paying blabberlicious for his animations, but you, on the other hand, are being paid to deliver a product to him and to the rest of your customers. If you really care about "making LW a GREAT product" then I suggest you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, looking for valuable comments in even the most inflammatory critiques and ignoring the rest. Not only is it easier on your psyche, but you make better use of your time by concentrating on fixing the bugs that got users bitching in the first place.

jin choung
05-27-2004, 09:17 PM
'*yawn*'?!?!

wtf? is this actually a response from customer service?!

man, if you actually work as a customer service representative, you should be dragged out and beaten with heavily loaded boxes of maya immediately.

and if you really want to start a discussion about what a developer owes its customers, you would best let it go and reconsider.... at the very best, you're headed for an uphill battle - in actuality, you'd probably find it almost immediately unwinnable.

the customer is always right... they say that for very pragmatic reasons.

and i agree completely with adrian... WHERE THE F is your sense of logic?!?! if you PAID for an animation, then you'd be an IDIOT NOT TO CRITICIZE IT IF IT WERE NOT TO YOUR LIKING!!!

if someone PAYS for your product and your product doesn't STEENKEENG WORK, then...?!?!?!

it's called THINKING before SPEAKING... eh?

abso-fing-lutely outrageous....

jin

Librarian
05-27-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
I do not criticize your animations, please do not criticize our release.
Pretty bad comparison. As a customer, you should have the right to criticize the product you paid for as long as no personal insults are involved.

You represent a company and my impression of your quote COULD BE that NT doesn`t care much about what customers say or want.
I would be careful with such statements. At least as long as you are representing Newtek.
But I appreciate your work and that a member of the development team communicates with the community.

toby
05-28-2004, 03:54 AM
Well if I were Scott I sure as HELL would never post to these forums anymore - good job. Whenever anybody cries 'how come Newtek doesn't answer this post? whah!' I'm going to direct him to this thread. Blabberlicious is known for constant complaining with never a good thing to say and he knows it, and Scott, who has taken a lot of heat eloquently, and is probably twice as sick of it as I am.

And what is this snotty 'the customer's always right' crap? That term was coined by a company that catered to RICH people. It made sense for them because rich people always want to be right, and they can afford to pay extra for it. You guys aren't paying enough to expect NT to take constant belittling comments and then say "Yes sir". In fact, you're paying a lot less for LW than anything else you can do production with - and if any one of a thousand little features doesn't work, you say "your product doesn't STEENKEENG WORK", dismissing everything that works well and does so because of their hard work.

If you guys have ever dealt with a bad customer or had a boss that rides you every chance he gets, you should feel stupid because that's what you're acting like, including the idea that you should be allowed to. You're lucky to have NT programmers on the forums at all, and the patient people on this forum will be lucky if there are any tomorrow.

blabberlicious
05-28-2004, 04:08 AM
I'm a bit gob smacked, as they say over here...

Thanks Adrain & Jin for taking the words out of my mouth...

Scott: You say that his forum is not really the conduit for technical support/bug reporting, but how can I establish if a 'bug' is machine/platform specific? Do you mean we can share our experiences as long as they aren't negative?

I thought I made my feelings clear about your position as Mac developer, and that we had moved on. Obviously not. Since you chose to bring it up, here's what I posted to you last week:


Thanks Elmer & Scott for taking the time out to explain to me more of the background to the issues. I'm no coder, but I completely understand (and emphasize) your plight. Years of web design taught me all I need to know about trying to design for multi-platform environments. Boy, do I feel for you!

I don't underestimate how hard it must be at the digital 'coalface'. And my posts have been more about gaining other peoples experiences to work out a practical solution to our immediate dilemma: how to squeeze the best performance out of an excellent app.


I wrote that in good faith, even after a pretty gutting realisation that I'll have to pay out for a G5 or switch platforms to get any kind of reasonable performance for the work I do.

Was I annoyed, after the promises of better Open GL performance?
Yes.

Some of the best info have ever read about OpenGL and the mac history came out of that thread. It helped me decide to switch platform to get stuff done. Period.

What happen to the thread? It was shut down.

So, anyway, after that ruckus, I posted to establish a bug. Saying I was bemused that these tools don't function properly isn't the crime you think it is.

I was very confused by your subsequent email to me about these tools. Rather than quote from it, I'll leave you to post something to the forum as you see fit, so that Mac (and PC) users can take from it what they will.

Cheerio, and best of British.

jin choung
05-28-2004, 04:17 AM
actually,

i'm quite certain that it would benefit newtek if scott didn't post....

responding to a PAYING CUSTOMER with a *yawn* is un-fing-believable.

and the customer IS always right. unless you're willing to say, "y'now what? f off... you're more trouble than your worth."

and no company is willing to say that. NEWTEK IS NOT WILLING TO SAY THAT... but evidently... SCOTT IS!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the customer IS always right... know why?

if you argue with a dissatisfied customer, trying to tell them why they should not be dissatisfied, that's a moron's gambit!

y'know how many times out of a hundred that will work?

and as a company, your goal is to retain and attract new customers... you do not do that by trying to mind f them into thinking that a bug ain't a bug and to 'look on the bright side of life'.

and if the customer has a VALID Fing COMPLAINT about something that doesn't work... well then WHAT THE F CAN YOU POSSIBLY HAVE TO SAY?!

hey, my brand new car can have 90million things that work just right but if i paid for my car and that fing STEREO doesn't work, GUESS WHAT... i'm going to go super fing ballistic.

and if i go back to the dealer and yell at them to fix the fing stereo super fing chop chop, they BETTER fing do it double time and get me a donut and coffee while they're at it.

i mean seriously... are you arguing that it is right and appropriate that CUSTOMER SERVICE OF ALL PEOPLE should give you lip and an attitude?!

jin

blabberlicious
05-28-2004, 04:19 AM
Toby: That's rubbish. I just posted a detailed series of tips about using RLA's and confirmed that they had fixed various issues with the format. I thanks NT for sorting that.

Stop trying to personalise this. I post when things are broke. You just want an argument.
Sad

toby
05-28-2004, 04:35 AM
Well perhaps, Blabberlicious, you don't realize that this:
If this were a Kaydara Motionbuilder Forum, this would be the point where someone from the company would chime in with a quick response to acknowledge the problem. They would try to reproduce the bug to confirm it....etc.

...but that's not how things happen round here.

and all your other comments like it are RUDE ( and they're not just a post that things are broken), and would take restraint from anyone at Newtek to respond to politely - and that restraint only lasts so long. Until you understand that, you will continue to be "gob smacked".

Jin - Scott is not customer service, he gave no 'lip', and blabberlicious' comments are not 'complaints'. I can tell that you've never dealt with bad customers, you are one. To expect to pay the lowest price for the best product on earth and you can snap your fingers and expect customer service to lick your feet, you're a total snob.

I've read a lot of well written and informative posts from Scott and you two will happily screw that up for the rest of us with your petty bickering. "he took offense at my comments! he didn't let me say whatever I wanted, me, the all-mighty customer".

jin choung
05-28-2004, 05:04 AM
toby,

you identify waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much with the other party in question...

evidently, you've never dealt with an incompetent bank teller or clerk or cashier or what have you....

perhaps that it's just that you're such a swell guy: 'suuuure... no problem... i'll take whatever i can get. no need to trouble yourselves over lil' ol me....' that's just neato keen for you.

i'm sure you're a great customer. if newtek could have nothing but a million clones of you, they would be ecstatic i'm certain.

but if i'm not mistaken, this is commerce and not sunday school. you'll forgive me if i don't exactly comply with the golden rule.

i need not be 'GRATEFUL' for f's sake! just like they need not be GRATEFUL to me for buying their product....

this is basic stuff man. like it or not, the VENDOR IS BEHOLDEN TO THEIR CUSTOMERS... vendors that don't understand that stop being vendors for very long.

jin

jin choung
05-28-2004, 05:18 AM
oh,

and how does anything that i've said qualify as 'snobbery'?

i think i have a grasp on the sentiment you're seeking to articulate but snobbery is simply not accurate.

i am merely stating the facts of capitalism... if you mouth off to your customers, if you do not attend to their concerns - they will not be customers any longer.

and don't complain 'on behalf' of newtek like you're doing. it only makes angry customers more angry at newtek, even though newtek themselves ain't doin' the talking.

newtek's a big boy and can fight their own battles.

jin

cresshead
05-28-2004, 05:22 AM
this discussion seems to be disolving into a "tit for tat" exchange of opposite views...maybe time to lock the thread?

steve g

toby
05-28-2004, 05:40 AM
No, vendors are 'beholden' to earning money. Serving customers' whims only goes so far to that end, otherwise they'd be handing out money and free software trying get as many customers as possible.

Thinking that anyone is 'beholden' to you is snobbery.

jin choung
05-28-2004, 06:25 AM
ick....

i'm done with this thread.

you're god's gift to product and service providers toby....

congratulations.

jin

Dodgy
05-28-2004, 06:49 AM
I think there's been a lot of criticism recently, some of it fair, some of it unfair, and Scott is obviously feeling a little thin skinned at the moment. The tones of a lot of posts have been unpleasant, not at all helpful, suggesting that the NT team are taking us for a ride, and not putting in the effort. I don't think that at all. I think they've worked hard at a difficult time, and produced a package worth the money I've paid (not including the DFX+).


Some people seem to have had more than their share of problems with the software, which is unfortunate. I can only say I certainly haven't found LW8 any worse than 7.5 and probably a lot better. Quite a few people here have had the same pleasant surprise, so NT must be getting something right.

I don't think Scott should have said what he did, but I think if a client had said 'WFT is this?' to a me when I'd tried my best, then then I could wel understand the sentiment. That's not an excuse, but most of the NT replies have been very good IMHO, this particular tone from scott was unhelpful.

Maybe we should all just calm down a bit? Come on, we all want LW to be a better package than any out there, why don't we aim towards that instead of attacking each other.

theo
05-28-2004, 07:09 AM
Oddly enough- from my view here in the clouds there is a lot of truth on both sides.

The ferocious-due-to-their-torture Lightwave babies against the ghoulish lurker-beast Scott with a few common sense sorcerers thrown. Heck looks a home grown fairy tale here in the making. Now where's the pretty princess that has to be rescued. Hmmm... not many those around in this neck of the woods.... guess we'll have to substitue someone...any takers...:D

cresshead
05-28-2004, 07:12 AM
exactly...people always want to write & read "bad news" not good news...lightwave 8 has a large amount of good things & great tools yet here we only read about what doesn't work or what wasn't created in lightwave 8.0..no small wonder that some of the developers feel a need to defend the work they have put into this version of lightwave...you can only be expected to take positive critisism in bucket fulls..but when they just "slag off" tools or developers with zero insight into just the large amount of man hour gone into this release then we'll have some verbal conflicts like we have above...and literally that does nothing to help any bug fixes we may need as you are de motivating your developer to work on making those tools work better or as you expected...i'd also add that there is a possibility that other 3d app producers may be posting here to knock down the perception of lightwave 8.0 to boost their products in comparison...take all you read with a pinch of salt.

steve g

Red_Oddity
05-28-2004, 07:14 AM
Just a question for Scott...

Maybe it is an idea to have a page with hotfixes...i see a lot of game studios do this (and MS offcourse)...

This way, if a bug is confirmed, someone could build a hotfix for the bugged plugin/program and post it on that page, that way customers who actually use the program in an everyday environment won't have to wait half a year for a official LW 8.0a update.
I think in the end LW will be a lot more usefull this way, right now people find a bug, and either have to completely avoid using that tool or have to find another pain-in-the-arse-workflow-killer way around the problem...
Also, this is a great way to find out if a hotfix/patch doesn't screw up something else...

Anyway, just a thought...

PeterJ
05-28-2004, 07:38 AM
I still can not reproduce the error.
But seeing that I am one of the incompetent idiot's who put these tools in LW 8 I would like to turn this thread back to solving the problem.
I have some questions:
1) Do any of you with a PC have this problem?
2) If you have the problem (MAC or PC) due me a favor and look at the bonetools.p file in the animate directory Give me the file date and file size please.
Any other bull**** can be left out. If you want to talk about improving the tools great if not please do not post.

Thank you.

Peter

Kurtis
05-28-2004, 08:28 AM
The discussion of whether Scott is right or Blabberlicious is right has gone on long enough.

To any who do not already know, if you want to confirm whether or not something is a bug before sending a report, you are welcome to do so, if you would like to actually make a LightWave Bug Report, please use [email protected] This e-mail address will go directly to the appropriate parties to have it addressed. If you have used a thread to confirm it, please reference that thread.

If this is to be a bug confirmation/report thread, please return it to that. If the back and forth continues, I will deem it necessary to lock the thread as has already been suggested.

blabberlicious
05-28-2004, 08:28 AM
Speak to Scott - He emailed me last night to confirm that the scaling bug happens on the PC as well as mac.

These are the steps he used to establish the bug:

1) Open LW from a fresh start
_
2) Add a Null
_
3) Add a bone
_
4) Press (space bar) (space bar)
_
5) Using the LMB scale the bone up and down (one click and drag motion)
_
6) Activate Tip Move (^T of course)
_
7) Use the RMB to move the tip...
_
Whacko!!!! The axes get long and the bone gets freakishly large.
_
Apologies for reproducing the email, Scott, but in the interests of getting this fixed, I'd thought it
I'd be constructive and pass on that finding to Peter.

Scott mentioned some other stuff about functionality, but I'm not going to repeat it here, as I'm sure he's on the case.


Cheers

PeterJ
05-28-2004, 08:42 AM
Yea Blab that's what I got from Scott.
I have tried everything to make it happen on 3 different systems (all PC) but no go.
Thanks for posting the file info. This looks like something that was fixed a while ago. I'm not sure why it would come back. I did not run into this in testing before release MAC or PC. It never would have made it out the door without a fix if we had seen this. I'll have to get the MAC out and check it today.
I'll have to go back a few revisions and see what I come up with.

Peter

Scott_NewTek
05-28-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Red_Oddity
Just a question for Scott...

Maybe it is an idea to have a page with hotfixes...i see a lot of game studios do this (and MS offcourse)...

This way, if a bug is confirmed, someone could build a hotfix for the bugged plugin/program and post it on that page, that way customers who actually use the program in an everyday environment won't have to wait half a year for a official LW 8.0a update.
I think in the end LW will be a lot more usefull this way, right now people find a bug, and either have to completely avoid using that tool or have to find another pain-in-the-arse-workflow-killer way around the problem...
Also, this is a great way to find out if a hotfix/patch doesn't screw up something else...

Anyway, just a thought...


That was my idea for 7.5D, however, there are so many interactions between parts of the system that it is very precarious to release such things. In the case of BoneTools, and a few other plugins, it is not so bad. And we are trying to determine what might be the best (quickest) way to get fixes out in some cases like that. (As a workaround for this particular issue, one should use Scale Hierarchy, and not the LMB scale, BTW.) It is a tough call as we have developers working on the code constantly, literlally day and night 24x7, and reaching a valid cut-off point is somewhat of a speedbump. There is a lot of work to do, as everyone knows, and we are doing it the best we can.

Scott_NewTek
05-28-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by blabberlicious
Speak to Scott - He emailed me last night to confirm that the scaling bug happens on the PC as well as mac.

These are the steps he used to establish the bug:

1) Open LW from a fresh start
_
2) Add a Null
_
3) Add a bone
_
4) Press (space bar) (space bar)
_
5) Using the LMB scale the bone up and down (one click and drag motion)
_
6) Activate Tip Move (^T of course)
_
7) Use the RMB to move the tip...
_
Whacko!!!! The axes get long and the bone gets freakishly large.
_
Apologies for reproducing the email, Scott, but in the interests of getting this fixed, I'd thought it
I'd be constructive and pass on that finding to Peter.

Scott mentioned some other stuff about functionality, but I'm not going to repeat it here, as I'm sure he's on the case.


Cheers

I spoke to Peter, of course, and we are trying to resolve where the disconnect is. Perhaps some bit of code did not get checked in? Or perhaps our build failed and it was not noticed. Hard to say. But, in the end, we are trying to get it fixed.

Along those lines... when isolating a bug, it is extremely important to get a few precise steps or an example file, etc., to help reproduce the issue. As you all can see from the steps I created, this method helps ensure some degree of understanding for everyone trying to capture the issue(s).

And, as Kurtis mentioned, when you can (as clearly as practical) identify the bug, send it along and we can check it out and determine what to do next.

blabberlicious
05-28-2004, 10:53 AM
I'm happy to do that .

I hope you appreciate that it's hard to change my mindset about emailing tech, as my experience hasn't been too good in the past. But accept that things have changed for the good, and you've demonstarted a willingness to share information that others haven't.

The comment about stuff getting through testing wasn't meant to be inflamatory, but I understand why you would see it that way, in light of my (understandable) frustation about openGL.

I'm done complaining about that - ordered a PC - end of story. I have no doubt that Mac users who perservere will eventually see the benefit of your labours.

Have good weekend.

Red_Oddity
05-30-2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
It is a tough call as we have developers working on the code constantly, literlally day and night 24x7, and reaching a valid cut-off point is somewhat of a speedbump. There is a lot of work to do, as everyone knows, and we are doing it the best we can.

I know you guys do your best, but isn't it a shame then that when they have fixed something it doesnt' get a proper fieldtest (not a beta test, but have the person who reported the bug download the hotfix and see if it actually fixes things...)

That, in combination with this forum, is a great way to fix mishaps like that...

It might offcourse open up a whole new can of worms, but atleast it might be worth a try?

Scott_NewTek
05-30-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Red_Oddity
I know you guys do your best, but isn't it a shame then that when they have fixed something it doesnt' get a proper fieldtest (not a beta test, but have the person who reported the bug download the hotfix and see if it actually fixes things...)

That, in combination with this forum, is a great way to fix mishaps like that...

It might of course open up a whole new can of worms, but atleast it might be worth a try?

Yes, however, there is not a formal bug repair process that works well in this case. I have been trying to improve that very process. The situation is that the code management makes it complicated to make a single hotfix for any one bug. So, in order to have someone test a fix, they would have to get the entire new system. Problem there is that it is generally unstable. Not to mention the buzz that would be created from the exposure of new features! :) Alternately, a single fix can be applied to the exact release version of the system. The issue there is that other newer system changes/fixes may negate it in the final release. Additionally, as you might notice in the LW programs directory there are many shared libraries that make up LW as a whole. These can sometimes be replaced individually without too much trouble. But... often one thing affects another and another, etc., and the whole system needs to be rebuilt and tested as a unit. (Generally each developer rebuilds the entire system on an ongoing basis as a matter of normal development workflow anyway-that way we are all aware of the latest changes and can adjust things appropriately relative to the part of the code we are working on.) So, it just depends.

However, using our bug database and a QA process that creates and archives test cases and then reiterates ALL fixed and known bugs BEFORE release candidates would solve 95% of the issues. That takes extra time and staff. And we are working out a way to accomplish that. The bug database is improving. The steps documented for recreating bugs are improving. Test cases are more prevalent, etc. The entire staff is sharing the QA role and working toward better 'coverage' of all bugs. Using the refinement idea, it is honing in on a better system and process. I hope! :-) LW 8 was delayed significantly due to this commitment to a better quality system than had been produced before. (Sorry for the delay... but... if you think LW 8.0 is buggy... you should have seen the December version! :) )

I think that the level of stability and quality of LW 8 is truly one of the best releases of LW ever, if not the very best. There are still bugs, and generally there will always be something. But, we wiped out bugs that were as much as 2 years or more old. And tons of things that were not even tracked.

We are still whittling away at the bugs as they come in and as we notice things. LW 8.x will be another notch of improvement. More new feature bugs will have been removed and some more old bugs as well. Of course, inevitably some new bugs will crop up. :(

All I can ask is that if people find something that doesn't seem right, then try to document the necessary steps to reproduce it as clearly as you can and send it in! It will wind up in the database somewhere. It may not get fixed by the next rev, but it will eventually as we work down the list.

Be sure to read the LW FAQ occasionally when you encounter something as well. If there is a prominent issue that has a workaround we will post it there.

-Scott

One other thing to note... there are plenty of bugs related to third party plugins. Some of the plugins we have, many we don't. If you find a bug, please, remove ALL third party tools/plugins/whatever and test for the bug. If it occurs only WITH the third party tools, be sure to specify what you are using and so on.

UnCommonGrafx
05-30-2004, 12:02 PM
Scott,
Kudos to you and the team.

Tell US when our ***** stinks, too, as we know you guys are only human, too. I like that you have passion enough to stand up for your art and craft to let folks know both, that you are listening and seconldy, that in the process of listening you won't just sit by when idle insults and inuendo are passed off as fact. And that you are an active developer in the process, wow-you keep up the great work. And the team.

Hehe, Peter's gonna complain if this fix isn't in real soon, I bet. He's mad about his tools, too, I noticed. Satisfied Ortho owner here.

Please get more of the team involved. I've seen requests to let Ino (sp) come share his knowledge on the new dynamics system...

Scott_NewTek
05-30-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by UnCommonGrafx
Scott,
Kudos to you and the team.

Tell US when our ***** stinks, too, as we know you guys are only human, too. I like that you have passion enough to stand up for your art and craft to let folks know both, that you are listening and seconldy, that in the process of listening you won't just sit by when idle insults and inuendo are passed off as fact. And that you are an active developer in the process, wow-you keep up the great work. And the team.

Hehe, Peter's gonna complain if this fix isn't in real soon, I bet. He's mad about his tools, too, I noticed. Satisfied Ortho owner here.

Please get more of the team involved. I've seen requests to let Ino (sp) come share his knowledge on the new dynamics system...
Thanks for the support.

Yeah, Peter is passionate, and we get along fine. :-) We can have a healthy debate and knock-down drag out fight, and at the end of the day everybody wins and we are just better friends. Our mutual respect for each other (for all team members for that matter) is very high. His stuff will get updated as needed, no doubt. It will take a bit of time though. Lots of things to prioritize and then work off the list is all.

I definately work on the team aspect of what's going on as much as I can. It is tough though. People are sensitive and pride plays a big role in a lot of this. It goes way beyond 'ownership' or recognition. There is a lot of history to cope with.

Ino is great! I wish I spoke Japanese better though! There is much to learn from him. (I have tried to learn some Japanese, but there are only so many hours in a day I guess...)

-Scott

06-01-2004, 09:01 AM
Peter: I've had a bit of flakiness with the new bone tools as well. Haven't seen the infinite joint distance bug yet, but I have had child bones get slightly offset from a parent after using the joint/tip move tools and be unable to fix it back into place. Using the intel version.

We don't have our 8 upgrades here at the studio yet, so I can only try to reproduce this one at home in my limited spare time.

Any chance for undo working in the future for these tools? And maybe a realtime symmetry tool perhaps? It would be nice to not have to delete half a heirarchy every time I make an edit in order to maintain symmetry. Otherwise my experience with the new tools has been positive.

Congrats on taking your first steps towards improving LW immensely in the area of character setup!

PeterJ
06-01-2004, 09:23 AM
Thanks for the props James.
The features you listed have been requested by others also. I know that Newtek is very dedicated to improving the state of the tools and character animation in Lightwave period. So I think you will see some good advancment in the future.
Do you have a scene that you can reproduce this in? If so please send it along. This is something else I can not seem to reproduce with bones created in Layout.
There is a bug with importing skelegons and using the bone tools. The bug seems to be in the skelegon import function in Layout. It can cause a few very strange things to happen including what you descibe.

Peter

06-01-2004, 09:39 AM
Interesting... I'm pretty sure the bones were derived from skelegons too. I'll have another look at the scene and send it your way. I'm kindof stuck at the moment between the new tools and skelegons in modeler. We have to use weightmaps in our pipeline, and skelegons are absolutely necessary for faster weight setup and tweaking at this point (until we get some vertex weight tools in layout) =]

I'd love nothing more than to be able to leave skelegons behind. This is a huge bottleneck for character setup for us right now. Especially with game rigs getting more and more complex - it's getting harder to come up with efficient setup solutions when we're still tied to weight mapping for deformation.

PeterJ
06-01-2004, 10:51 AM
James please contact me at :

[email protected]

PeteS
09-09-2004, 06:50 PM
ok, i know scotts hard at work fixing the bone twist tool, bu what is the next best way to do this in the meantime? i'm strugglin here :(
I gotta get my pitch moves in order!!!!

Ramon
01-17-2005, 12:26 PM
Hey guys,
It's great to get their feedback. If it were Alias, I'm not sure the programmers would take any time talking to anyone but only the very high end studios and such, to get any feeback. Kudos for NT and it's staff on that. Hopefully collaboration spawns quality, innovation of new tools, and bug fixes etc. Scott and Peter thanks for your envolvement here on the forums! Minus the bugs, these bone tools would be a very powerful "force". Hopefully in 8.2 (no pressure :D ) we'll have a fix to all the bone bugs! :) For me on the PC, the bone twist tool isn't working, the yellow handle doesn't move at all.

blabberlicious
01-17-2005, 02:31 PM
Hey! - in the interests of everyone's sanity, I really don't see much purpose of pulling this thread out of the toxic swamp. Get back foul slime, from when you came!

Everyone got pretty heated, and some things were said that probably did little to advance anything. Apologies were made all round.

So after such a protracted wait (check the post date), my finger is certainly not in 'pointing' mode; until 8.2 arrives it's firmly holstered

(partly because trying to twist it into that position would result in my hand exploding)

Sorry, I couldn't resist that ;-)

Ramon
01-17-2005, 04:19 PM
HEHE :D Simma-dan-na!