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NASCAR3D
05-24-2004, 06:56 AM
I have been a Lightwave 3D user since LW5.6. Recently upgraded to LW8.0 and have not found an answer to creating Brazil (3D-MAX) like Renders.

For Instance, Especially with Cars that have a "Full-Body Wrapped" texture applied to them..

I can do it in MAX, but quite honestly I hate MAX and it was a waste of my Money as far as that goes, Sure it gets done what I want, but I don't want to have to the spend the money for 2 programs to get a simple result that Lightwave should have no problem doing once a solution is found.

Below are some examples of what I am talking about.. All these have "FULL-BODY WRAPPED" UV Textures applied to them (meaning 1 UV Texture makes up the entire Body design/decal)

You will be able to tell the ones done with MAX Brazil. Now how do I get lightwave to do the same thing?

http://www.rpm-3d.com/LWFORUM/RPMWAXCAR.jpg
http://www.rpm-3d.com/LWFORUM/Marlin2k4.jpg
http://www.rpm-3d.com/LWFORUM/SertaDMPTruck.jpg
http://www.rpm-3d.com/LWFORUM/DMPSertaTruckShow.jpg

mkiii
05-24-2004, 07:14 AM
Sorry, but I don't get what your problem is. LW has Radiosity rendering, it has lights, reflection maps, specularity & so on.

What exactly is it that you can't achieve in LW that you can in Brazil? What difference does it make how you UV map your cars?

Maybe you could show (and label) an exmple of what Brazil is doing for you, alongside the LW result that you are getting.

The only difference I can see in the renders above, are that No1 & No3 look like they have a better Reflection Map/Environment map setup, though that may be more to do with light / map & camera angles.

NASCAR3D
05-24-2004, 07:28 AM
#1 and #3 are Brazil Renders from MAX.. #2 #4 are Lightwave Renders. I can't seem to get a good "Wax" Render in Lightwave using a single UV Texture for the entire Car.. Now if I don't use any Texture on the car and Render I can acheive a Nice Waxed look. But once I place the texture back on, it's gone..

I know Lightwave is capable of doing it just like Brazil, I just am not sure how to accomplish it currently and that is my problem..

Is there a scene file out there that someone has that can replicate what I am trying to do so I can look at the settings and see what I am doing wrong? Or a Tutorial maybe? Don't get me wrong, I can get decent renders outa Lightwave, just haven't been able to accomplish the same "Waxed" look yet.. Especially on a White "SHOWROOM" style Render like the ones above..

I am missing something, and I have no clue what it is.. Any help would be greatly appreciated..

Matt
05-24-2004, 09:02 AM
Looks like you have reflection turned right down, or there's nothing for it to reflect.

There are car paint shaders available from the net too, I know a user called Antti Järvelä has created one that renders the paint and laquer layers properly, but it's not on general release, he may send it to you if you ask him nicely, he's a nice chap!

His website is here: http://koti.mbnet.fi/anttij77/

You can produce nice results from standard LightWave though, here's a very quick test!

wacom
05-24-2004, 09:11 AM
OK...the first thing is that in LW it doesn't have to do with your UV texture.

You applied the texture under the color tab I take it right? OK go to that texture and try these things if you are using radiosity:

VERSION A.

First try these steps before the next:

Up your specularity and glossiness settings

Go into image viewer and load your reflection map.

hit F5 and bring up the backdrop tab.

Next add under the add enviroment tab, either Image world or Textured Enviroment. Apply your texture to either one (the produce diffrent resaults but start with image world).

do a small test render. You should get some nicer refections, but depending on how bright the image is that you used in image world, there maybe blowout of lights.

Here are some adjustments to make:

Lower the brightness setting in the image world plug-in

Up your reflections settings a bit, to say 24 %.

Lower your diffuse settings just a bit.

Change your color temp. to compensate for the diffuse channel changes.

(it's important to have these settings equal roughly 100%, but play with diffrent values until you get what you need).

Do another test render.

VERSION B.

Have you applied your reflection map under the enviroment tab of your surface? Try adding a sphereical map to that.

These steps should get you headed in the right direction. If you still need help please do two things if you can:

Ask more questions here.

Get FPrime.

wacom
05-24-2004, 09:42 AM
Here is a little scene for you to download. I set it up to illustrate what I was trying to explain. Nothing fancy pants...

byte_fx
05-24-2004, 05:10 PM
Another thing to try is adding one or two lights to the scene.

In their properties turn everything off (including shadows) except specularity and set to affect only the body layer.

In this case I would suggest 2 or 3 linear lights positioned above left, centered, and above right parallel to the object and ~ 1.5 times the objects length.

You might also try adding similar lights parallel to and 45 degrees above the nose and deck.

A lot depends on the rest of the scene setup but I've found these spec kicker lights to come in handy at times. In particular some scenes I did using the same setup but tweaked between daylight and dusk - just had to tweak the rad' amount and kicker light settings.

byte_fx

Brett H.
05-24-2004, 06:30 PM
Wacom should be writing tuts for Newtek.
His suggestions will get you there.
My only addition would be to try a couple of large white luminous polys above the car/truck, to give it something big and white to reflect. This will get the effect you're seeing in the Brazil renders, with the nice big white reflection.

LW is certainly capable of this.

Brett

wacom
05-24-2004, 07:05 PM
You could also get ok reflections using just gradients and you wouldn't even need raytracing...

NASCAR3D
07-21-2004, 02:47 PM
http://www.rpm-3d.com/TestLWRender.jpg

Its definatly closer than I have been before.. I found that after I put in the gradients I have to make them 25% transparent on both color and diffuse in order to see the Texture Map that covers the entire body for car.. I also had to make the Luminosity for the Texture of the Car 80 to 100% to have it show up..

I also tried exporting the car with Textures from MAX which was a disaster to say the least... I was hoping to get acuracte shader and texture settings from MAX into lightwave, but that is obvkously "Wishfull thinking" at best..

Any other suggestions or settings to try? I know that the renders will not be exact to Brazil, but I want to get as close as humanly possible...

The biggest thing I think that Lightwave has trouble with at least in this case is that the entire body of the car is texturemapped with 1 texture a .tga The tires, and rims are seperate textures for different parts.. the car body is all the same Texture.. Hopefully there is a work around this...

I have read every Lightwave Book I have and tried almost all of the suggestions and tutoirals for such things with little results..

I noticed that it seems washed out, but that could be a simple setting I guess (just don't know which one).. And ideas on what to check and or change for that?

I think this will be a ongoing task getting tips and hints from all of you, until I achieve my goal.. But this is a lot better start than I have ever had, and I appreaciate all the assistance and help!

Just need more I guess..

Thanks again, and I hope to hear more ideas,and suggestions from everyone soon..

MooseDog
07-21-2004, 11:10 PM
gradients are your friend:D your last image there is certainly well reflected, but not in a real world sort of sense. reflections grow in strength as the surface turns away from the viewer/camera. the gradient to use in the reflection channel is incidence angle. you have control over both an alpha application of the reflection as well as it's opacity. the control, and thus the mistakes :D are yours to zero in on.

also google lw and car paint and reflection or some combination thereof. all the reading will lead you to the incidence angle gradient. apologies if you already know this, but haven't seen screenie of your texture editor.:confused:

(btw, that looks like a COOL job:cool:

Rory_L
07-21-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by NASCAR3D


I found that after I put in the gradients I have to make them 25% transparent on both color and diffuse in order to see the Texture Map that covers the entire body for car..


No! You put the gradient in the spec and reflection channels, using incidence angle as the parameter.

Anyway, why aren`t you using the BRDF shader? I`m sure it comes as standard with LW.

Again, when in doubt, look at the comprehensive material in the LW content folders. There`s sure to be some cool car body surfaces waiting there for you to analyse.

Cheers,

R

NASCAR3D
07-22-2004, 10:13 PM
The following are my Surface Settings, Light Settings, and the render results of these settings.. Its getting very close.. But I want to "surpass" not look identical to the First Images I posted.. I know it possible, and with you help I can get it there.. I appreciate all your input so far!

Settings are as follows:
CarBody: Lum=0, Diff=90, Spec=100, Gloss=85, Ref=10 Tran=0, Translucency 1.0 Smoothing and double sided on.. NO GRADIENTS

Lights (only 1 light in scene):
Light Type=Distant
Color=255 255 249, Light Intensity=0.0, Affect SPec and OpenGl Checked
Global IllumSettings:
Global Light and Lens are both 100, Enable are all checked
Ambient Color 251, 252, 243
Ambient Intensity=0
Shading Noise Checked
Enable Radiosity Checked
Type Monte Carlo
Intensity 100
Rays Per 4X12
Indirect Bounces=1


LightBox Object: Lum=300, Dif=100, Color=200,200,200
Rest is 0 on this surface, no textures, or gradients..

Floor Object: Dif=100, Color 236,245,255 Rest is 0

Sky: Color 255,255,249 Lum = 100 Rest is 0

SkyDome: 255,255,255 Lum=120 Rest is 0

Render Options: Realistic, All Checked but Depth Buffer AA, Ray Recursion at 3

Here is the Results of these settings:

http://www.rpm-3d.com/TestRender.jpg

I searched Google for hours, and found no Lightwave Car Paint Presets or shaders,, I found tons of MAX, but no Lightwave :(

I am very happy with the Results so far, but I want to go further, as I said before Surpass the MAX Brazil Results show in the first posted images..

I still have a little "Washout" in the headlights and on the Hood.. not sure how to fix that..

More Suggestions, Comments, Rants, etc?

Thanks again..

RUdiger
07-23-2004, 12:17 AM
Just adding the fast fresnel shader to fix the reflection and specularity at glancing angles should help alot!

Ade
07-24-2004, 02:00 AM
Upload the scene file and let us all have a squiz at it..

NASCAR3D
07-24-2004, 07:36 AM
While Normally I prefer not the post Scenes, and Models, In this particular case you guys have been an TREMENDOUS HELP! So, Here is the Scene, Models, and Textures to play with.. I would be intersted in seeing the results, and settings you used on the models, lights, surfaces, etc. So please post them when you are happy with your render so others can try these settings and see where they are missing the boat.. LIKE ME.. LOL

http://www.rpm-3d.com/ExportScene.rar

Cheers.. and Thanks!

caesar
07-26-2004, 09:35 AM
Thx for sharing! Very nice textures!

NASCAR3D
07-26-2004, 02:44 PM
No Problem, just post the complete version of your scene so others and anaylize and look at settings.. that is all I ask..

Here are some recent attempts on my end..

F-Prime Render (http://www.lwg3d.org/upload/wip/2004/07/26-868201.jpg)

My reflection has somehow disappeared with no changes to the Body settings.. not sure why.. working on solving that..

silverlw
07-28-2004, 12:46 PM
I liked your car alot and this is what i came up with in Fprime.

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Nascar.jpg

And the scenefiles (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Nascar.rar)

Barbs
02-24-2005, 11:30 PM
Hi,

Sorry to hijack your thread NASCAR but I have a similar problem to you. However never having used Max I don't have any comparison other than what else can be done with Lightwave.

I am trying to improve my renders of F1 spec cars. These renders are mine...

Little Devil Sim Racing (http://littledevil.formula-simracing.org/pages/cars2005.html)

Other people can do this!!!!!!

Racing Renders (http://www.racingrenders.com/pictures/2003season/ferrari/F2003-GA-5.jpg)

I want to be able to get that high gloss finish with the high intensity specular light reflection, but just can't seem to master it. Any tips would be appreciated.

Regards
Greg

NASCAR3D
02-24-2005, 11:54 PM
I too have still been trying to accomplish this.. There are so many Talented Vehicle Artists out there, I refuse to believe that NO-ONE has this information or wants to share some "Secrets". I know Lightwave is capable of achieveing these results.. I am just not sure how to achieve them. I have purchased videos, books, posted at countless forums, with little to no help or "Hints".

If someone out there can help us, it would be most appreciated!

Cheers

Barbs
02-25-2005, 12:07 AM
Well if I figure it out, I'll let you know.

If you figure it out, let me know. Deal?

NASCAR3D
02-25-2005, 12:09 AM
That is a Deal...

bobins
07-04-2005, 09:25 AM
hi mate, any updates on this? would be good to see any progress made!

thanks

NASCAR3D
07-04-2005, 09:40 AM
It seems to be a well guarded secret or something that nobody seems to want to share... or there are just a lot of ways to accomlish the same thing, and we are simply missing something easy?

I wish someone would help us, this is starting to drive me crazy... I know Lightwave is capable of producing this. If it wasn't I would have been a MAX user.

DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO REPLICATE THIS IN LIGHTWAVE 3D?

trick
07-04-2005, 02:04 PM
Lightwave's reflection system is additive and color independant which results in fading the underlying texture while you enhance the reflective values. Using gradients does not make ANY difference. The ONLY way I know of handling this is Hypersmooth (http://www.evs3d.com/hs_lw_intro.html) . With this plugin you can control the relations between reflectivity and any other material value like color, shadow, diffuse, specular, glossiness, etc. Example: if you need stronger reflective values for all greens in your texture while laying in the shadow only, you can control it with this plugin.

Since this thing is a shader it has the big disadvantage that it does NOT work with FPrime. And off course $$$$.

Cheaper workaround: seperate your reflections by rendering to RLA/RPF/PSD and multiply them in Photoshop, instead of adding them ...

And BTW: if you want near perfect model(/animation) transport between LW and MAX try Polytrans (http://www.okino.com) . I bake a lot of my LW models with VRay and fRender and never had any problems. The guy has been around since the mid 80's and really knows his stuff. As you may have guessed: don't think one application can do it all ;)

MooseDog
07-04-2005, 02:14 PM
here's a lw car render that's pretty slick imho. guy's website is:

http://www.dickboot.nl/

in this thread he shows how the scene was lit:

http://forum.simplylightwave.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3861&highlight=mclaren

if you can't see his pic, basically he has four area lights directly above the vehicle, and four luminous polys directly above them. there is also a specular only point light off to one side angle.

toby
07-04-2005, 02:15 PM
Looks to me like the only difference is that there's reflection on the Brazil render surfaces and none on the Lightwave render surfaces. Try it with about 10-35% reflection and experiment with the reflected background, objects or reflection maps. Make sure your surfaces and render options are set to raytrace reflection.

toby
07-04-2005, 02:41 PM
btw - Digital Domain does more car ads than anything else, and the only plugin used for car surfaces is basically the same as a gradient set to incidence angle.