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cavalos
05-21-2004, 07:02 PM
Do I have to say anything else?

Best
Christian

Signal to Noise
05-22-2004, 01:25 AM
FPrime.

Sure FPrime won't render volumetrics, glows, lens flares, plugins, and shaders but just wait until Worley & NewTek hash out the LW SDK issues. Then FPrime will be the new benchmark to all other renderers out there.

And I'm pretty sure we'll see FPrime as part of the core LW renderer by the time the next couple of LW iterations get released.

As stands right now tho FPrime is still the fastest renderer on the market.

wacom
05-22-2004, 09:57 AM
Faster Rendering = open the SDK.

Lynx3d
05-22-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by wacom
Faster Rendering = open the SDK.

Probably, i don't think it's a coincidence that most other packages come with a 3rd party renderer (MentalRay actually) or use technology from those (Cebas<->Cinema4D).

But it seems Newtek already decided to push more in that direction too...
Only drawback is that you have to pay for those renderers...

wacom
05-23-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Lynx3d
Probably, i don't think it's a coincidence that most other packages come with a 3rd party renderer (MentalRay actually) or use technology from those (Cebas<->Cinema4D).

But it seems Newtek already decided to push more in that direction too...
Only drawback is that you have to pay for those renderers...

This is true, but for some it is worth the price. A lot of people didn't need ANY of the new features in LW8, but needed faster rendering, sub-pixel displacement, and alternative rendering techniques to raytracing. A third party renderer would have been a better choice for them...

ingemar
05-24-2004, 01:24 AM
As stands right now tho FPrime is still the fastest renderer on the market.

For GI I would say this is not so.

tokyo drifter
05-24-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Signal to Noise
As stands right now tho FPrime is still the fastest renderer on the market. Fastest preview, yes! Fastest Renderer, no.

But Newtek should not give up on their renderer. The faster GI and raytracing methods are out there, they just need to implement them.

wacom
05-24-2004, 10:21 AM
Fprime is faster at some operations, slower than others when compared to other renderers. It is one of the fastest pure raytrace renderers, but some other renderers have very slick tricks to get good resaults VERY fast.

I'm not convinced that FPrime is very slow at raytraced GI with multi-bounces yet. I've done many diffrent scenes with GI and FPrime and have found that some really smoke...and others are...well almost a "joke".

cavalos
05-24-2004, 07:06 PM
I hope someday we have something as fast and powerfull as V-Ray.

Best
Christian

wacom
05-25-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by cavalos
I hope someday we have something as fast and powerfull as V-Ray.

Best
Christian

I hope someday that we have something better than V-Ray. I have mixed feelings about many of the V-Ray renders I've seen. V-Ray doesn't seem to be good at everything, but what it is good at...man is it fast. Still, if the SDK were opened up, we might get something like or better than V-Ray. God knows there is a market for it.

Also- if FPrime ever does get intergrated, and gets some noise redution, we'll have a super sweet renderer to work with. I just want there to be an option...if not MORE options.

Revanto
05-25-2004, 09:55 PM
Z-brush seems to do well for itself if this field. I also believe that most of the stuff (IE calculations) can be cheated somehow to make thing much more faster. The result is 2D after all so I don't see how they can't have tips and tricks for faster rendering.

Revanto

hrgiger
05-27-2004, 09:11 PM
FPrime is not fast at GI? Did someone actually say that?
I can't speak for other renderers but I know I make GI renders in Fprime in minutes what used to take hours and hours in Lightwave. Can you say 5 bounce monte carlo?

silverlw
05-28-2004, 11:13 AM
Maybe i have said this before,if i have bare with me;)

I happend to have some experience of both Vray and Fprime since i have tested them both and also compared them alot.
I started to look at other renderengines because Lw's Native renderer is god quality but dogslow. For me it is to slow because to me radiosity is everything. So when i was slowly aiming towards changing platform to get a better rendertool Worley dropped the bomb :D

My personal view of the matter is that Fprime is a "kickass fast bruteforce GI renderer". Sure there is alot of things that still could be improved alot in it but it's still fast as hell compared to many others. How can he say that when Vray spits out a 10 bounce rad image within 10 minutes? Well the easy answer is Vray dont!
(uh uh..i feel the flame war commin;))

Vray is a really fine piece of tool but that speed comes of the price of cheating. Its technical and based on aproximation-algoritms of how light use to behave but it does NOT calculate 10 bounces of radiosity. The end result often looks very god and frankly i dont care as long as the endresult is a highquality image.


So how does Vray do it then?
Vray shoots out a given amount of photons and collects the data of what it hits or not hits. Based on that collected data it calculates so called irradiancemaps that are aproximations of GI at 2,3,4-10 bounces. It's much better than guessing because it have the before sampled data to etrapolate so the resulting final image look very close like if you actually had traced 10 bounces of radiosity.
http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Vraytest.jpg

Cool so Fprime sux and is slow as hell compared to Vray?
Wrong. If you want to compare a renderer with another renderer you have to give them exactly the same amount of work to do.

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Vray%20direct%20computation%2010bounce.jpg
This is Vray with Bruteforce 10 really traced radiosity bounces and that proves to me anyway that Fprime is fast as hell of what it actually do. Fprime does not take any shortcuts at all to get it's result and when you take into account the things that no other renderer can do like progressive refinement and instant feedback, start/stop rendering, you dont have to worry about artifacts/flickering when animating,you can have a preview of your animations very quickly etc, the choice is simple,atleast to me;)

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Vray%20direct%20computation%202bounce.jpg
Here is anotherVray but only 2 bounces this time. Hmm 20 minutes..baaaad;)

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/[email protected]
Fprime test 5 bounces and 15 minutes


Things of improvements that i think will come quite fast is, EVEN faster optimizations of Fprime when newtek opens up the sdk,lots of plugins that will start working together with fprime, Fprime in all editorviews/modeller, Lw's noisereduction will work in cooperation with Fprime etc.

http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/[email protected]
The testscene i left refining in Fprime during the night
10 bruteforce traced bounces

ingemar
05-28-2004, 01:04 PM
So, FPrime seems to do it's thing very fast! That's good. But an excellent cheat in 3 minutes is still something LW/FPrime should be able to compete with. And let the cheat be better than LW noise reduction...

Panikos
05-28-2004, 03:42 PM
LW Noise Reduction creates blurred fat pixels. I never use it.

:rolleyes:

pschuyler
05-29-2004, 11:27 AM
As cool as those rendering comparisons are, compare Fprime on a larger model, like 1 million polys, any random architectural scene...totally unoptimized. And then compare the various renderers with HDR lighting and a variety of different lighting scenarios.

I think what you will find is that VRAY, Brazil, and Mental Ray all outshine Fprime on larger models for equivalent levels of output quality (i.e. totally crisp, no grain). The photon map model of those other renderers will crush the competition specifically when you get to those larger models. Test it out and I think you will see. This is not Fprime's fault, its Newtek's. Fprime is a godly piece of software, totally revolutionary, no fault intended to Worley. The preview ability is almost completely worth the extra rendering time, but I believe that Newtek's radiosity engine is totally obsolete and needs updating.

Paul S.

Panikos
05-29-2004, 12:08 PM
I agree :)

Considering that the LW8.0 rendering engine is the same as LW6.0 is something
I am not proud of.

Worley is a developer with vision, creatiing NEW technology, unpretictable, in a complete form, with almost NO bugs.
Newtek fails badly in terms of vision.


:mad:

wacom
05-29-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by pschuyler
As cool as those rendering comparisons are, compare Fprime on a larger model, like 1 million polys, any random architectural scene...totally unoptimized. And then compare the various renderers with HDR lighting and a variety of different lighting scenarios.

I think what you will find is that VRAY, Brazil, and Mental Ray all outshine Fprime on larger models for equivalent levels of output quality (i.e. totally crisp, no grain). The photon map model of those other renderers will crush the competition specifically when you get to those larger models. Test it out and I think you will see. This is not Fprime's fault, its Newtek's. Fprime is a godly piece of software, totally revolutionary, no fault intended to Worley. The preview ability is almost completely worth the extra rendering time, but I believe that Newtek's radiosity engine is totally obsolete and needs updating.

Paul S.

Two things here:

Noise reduction and aproximation.
Give FPrime these two things and we'll see who's faster in the end. Just imagine Fprime "cutting corners"!

Exper
05-31-2004, 10:57 AM
I'm boring, I know...
Chuck stated they'll work on the Renderer for the next update cycle...
we should provide some hints and some help for a batter one instead of talking about FPrime all the time. ;)

Exception
05-31-2004, 01:13 PM
If you guys see any light in adaptive mesh refinement, this would give lightwave LightScape speed and quality with rendering, save-radiosity capabilities and much more. It is a method that might not be super easy to implement, but it would be considderable less work than a rewrite of the core or whatever drastic changes that probably need to be made for any other kind of radiosity solution.
The explanation is in this thread: http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12631&highlight=adaptive+mesh

IgnusFast
06-03-2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Panikos
LW Noise Reduction creates blurred fat pixels. I never use it.

:rolleyes:

I *completely* agree. I'd rather have grain and detail than smoother shading and a blurry mess!

I wish they'd add an integrated 2-d post-process smart blur that would do something in-between... And do something like that for anti-aliasing as well-- it seems ridiculous to have to quadruple render times just to get "true" anti-aliasing when a smart edge-based routine should come close in quality.

pixym
06-04-2004, 10:05 AM
IgnusFast, Panikos,

I am quite agree with you for the non use of SNR!