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Chris S. (Fez)
05-21-2004, 11:25 AM
Please do not make us wait until another third party comes out with a plugin. 8's tools give me nothing I couldn't do in 7.5. The Apply Morph -100 trick does not always work. EditFX is blah. The joint morph stuff is okay but still blah until it supports multiple maps.

Dodgy
05-21-2004, 12:58 PM
I like Edit FX, but maybe you should check this out:

Chris S. (Fez)
05-21-2004, 01:31 PM
Thanks! A variation of his "apply morph" tutorial no? Workflow wise I am hoping for something similar to MAX and XSI. Rotate bone. Fix deformation. Rotate bone some more. Fix deformation. Also, for complex deformations it is much nicer to sculpt in modeler. For instance I am working on a bird mascot animation with many overlapping feathers. EditFX is kind of cumbersome. I would like something that works in modeler and gives us access to all those amazing sculpting and editing tools.
Also I am not sure those corrective morphs are exact because of when the morphs are evaluated. They are close but not exact and sometimes I need exact.

hrgiger
05-22-2004, 09:54 AM
I'm with ya Chris. We should be able to setup our joints as we animate. Bend bone, correct. Done.

sliver
05-25-2004, 08:21 AM
I don`t have 8 just yet, but the way I see it, is I should be able to take a base object, and then create a set of positive morphs and a set of negative morphs. Weight maps affected by bone modification should affect the amount that the morph applies to the point displacement.

This way I could rig a human model with only very few full object morphs.

1 relaxed base
1 all joints at +90 degrees
1 all joints at +full rotation
1 all joints at -90 degrees ( note, only move those joints that go negative ;) )
1 all joints at -full rotation


Then I could design a set of weightmaps that would determine what part of the morph was applied, and how the morph faded into the object based on which bone is adjusted.

bone -> weight -> morph.

Totally rigging a character with 2-3 morphs for each joint is a real pain and is really putting me off character rigging. All this, create a morph, bend the elbow, tweak, bend the elbow back to rest.... WHY? All feels a bit of a HACK for my liking.

P.S. point editing tools in Layout are SLOW and again, a HACK.

regards, Chris

Mipmap
06-17-2004, 11:59 AM
I agree with all this as well. A bunch of new character animations tools is really bitter sweet to me when I can't even animate my characters without every joint looking completely awful when the bones bend. The whole morphs thing to me seems like cheap workaround that NT has been riding out for too long.

The new bone tools in layout look nice for speeding up the process making and editing rigs for characters. However I've always blown far more time on picking at corrective morphs that need to be made for joints. From what I remember of working with Hash long ago, you could just use the smart skinning tool, bend the bone forward, fix, bend it fully and fix. From then on when the bone was animated to bend, it would deform to the corrective shape exactly.

Really, I'd gladly trade out all the new bone tools to get real smart skinning tools in LW8. I'd rather have to rebuild my bones and goals for each character than just loading and resizing premade rigs, but still having to screw around with endomorphs.

Also, I just noticed recently that Messiah: Animate is the exact same price as a Lightwave upgrade. If there isn't anything major helping this stuff by 8.5 I'm wondering how many might just look into spending their upgrade money on that instead.

Ramon
06-17-2004, 05:47 PM
I agree with you guys.
Maya really has corrective joints down perfectly. It's so interactive to bend the bone / mesh then sculpt the joint then apply set driven key (if you want to automate the morph) and waalaa!!! All in one nice logical flow - no swapping between programs to get it done!
Other than Mipmap, I done know if you all have had this problem with corrective morphs in 8 but, I'd love to know if you have. I posted it on cgtalk, you'll have to scroll down the page. Check it out and tell me if you have had these experiences with 8's corrective morphs:
I agree with you guys.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=96005&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

toonafish
06-22-2004, 03:23 PM
Check out the SmartMorph beta http://smorph.polas.net/smorph/ it's the only way I know of that DOES work when use an endomorph that you've adjusted in modeler because it morphs AFTER the bone deformations instead of before.
Besides that is has a very cool driven key feature a la Maya that actualy works like driven key should....and not like what Newtek thinks is driven key. Just select your bone rotate it, set the morph amount and set a key, the way it should be :-)






Originally posted by Chris S. (Fez)
Thanks! A variation of his "apply morph" tutorial no? Workflow wise I am hoping for something similar to MAX and XSI. Rotate bone. Fix deformation. Rotate bone some more. Fix deformation. Also, for complex deformations it is much nicer to sculpt in modeler. For instance I am working on a bird mascot animation with many overlapping feathers. EditFX is kind of cumbersome. I would like something that works in modeler and gives us access to all those amazing sculpting and editing tools.
Also I am not sure those corrective morphs are exact because of when the morphs are evaluated. They are close but not exact and sometimes I need exact.

Mipmap
06-23-2004, 05:38 PM
I tried it, it seems incomplete but still pretty nice. Still, how is that supposed to help anyone? Its a beta, it doesn't let you save it with your scene, and you can't see the results in a render. I can understand paying for plugins like Sasquatch, FPrime and major things like that, but I'm getting sick of having to look at plugins for every little **** thing that should have been in this animation program years ago.

Ramon
06-23-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Mipmap
I'm getting sick of having to look at plugins for every little **** thing that should have been in this animation program years ago.
Other than the ****, I agree 100%. I also agree with you that although the plugin is a great idea, (for me) it doesn't seem to be appling my morph AFTER the bone deformation.

Newtek should definitely have had this funtion with LW for some time now. It's essential for character animation for accurate joint morphs with a straight foward, no run around way of creating them.
Go to get on that NT.

toonafish
06-27-2004, 09:38 AM
Okay, I'm sorry. You're right It doesn't help anyone at this moment and Newtek should have solved this a looong time ago.

But I think nobody at newtek knows jointmorph doesn't work the way it should because I keep on seeing tutorials popping up at Newtek, now they have a new one where you have to use Softbodies....which also doesn't work :-(

Just wanted to let you guys know that there's hope regarding this issue.

By teh way, I experimented using SMorph to fix joints several times and it does work with bones. I get the exact same shape in Layout I've created in Modeler with the "save endo, copy endo, tweak copy, substract original endo" trick.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-27-2004, 09:59 AM
"I get the exact same shape in Layout I've created in Modeler with the "save endo, copy endo, tweak copy, substract original endo" trick."

Nice.

Ramon
06-27-2004, 08:39 PM
It's odd because Pawel says that his plugin has a feature that essentially replicates Maya's set driven key. But, the purpose I used Maya's set driven key was to go into component mode and move points around (ex: move points to shape the forearm / bicep when the bone's at a certain angle). Then I would create a set driven key.
Lightwave doesn't have that ability (well it does through editFX but that's real clunky).
Can smorph create set driven keys on points through edit FX?