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agrippa
05-21-2004, 01:00 AM
Anyone know whether Digital Extremes is still using LW to develop content for their next game Pariah?

Also, anyone know of LW/Unreal Tournament 2004 resources beyond the tut posted on NT's site for UT2003??

thx

agrippa

WilliamVaughan
05-21-2004, 06:47 AM
DE is using LW for Dark Sector

caesar
05-21-2004, 11:25 AM
Proton, just 1 complain...every other 3D app shows specific film/games profiles in media (creating a kind of "aura" or "hype" about theirs apps), and I think its important to NT to show specific use of the excellent LW - we dont see any article about how LW was used in Hellboy, or in Doom 3, or even Dark Sector...and in what area - modeling, animation, rendering...I think there´s a lot of positive/succesful cases that need to be shared. The film/games list LW is/was used are way hidden, I even lost the link! Advertise! LW has the power!

rebelr6
05-22-2004, 05:07 PM
Agreed. I think Lightwave would really benefit from having more exposure in this area.

I have found Lightwave to be excellent for developing game plugins and writing model and level exporters etc. It amazes me that it is not promoted more in game development. I originally did my tools in the other package, but converted them over to Lightwave. What a breeze that was.

So come on Newtek, you're missing out on potentially a lot of business.

Ztreem
05-23-2004, 06:15 AM
Yeah! Make an interview with id software and their use of Lightwave in the making of doom3 and put it up on your site and maybe on cgnetworks site too.
Too many people say that lightwave is no good in games, but if id can make doom3 in lightwave then everbody else can make their games in lightwave too. The game industry is a big one... promote more!!! Lightwave rule! :D

SamuraiSlayer
05-23-2004, 07:23 AM
I know Lightwave can be good with games, and this is not to put down Lightwave, but aren't most other 3D apps just as good... I mean what can you use a 3D app for in the process of making a game? What I've come up with in my attempts at game creation are the following:

1. Modeling seems to be the only big use for a 3D app when creating a game (ok so this is one of LW's strong points...)

2. Since a lot of game engines are numeric, you can create the movement in the 3d app, and then copy the numerics to the game engine...

Now that's really all that I can think of... I'm sure that Lightwave could be promoted with all the game advertising and stuff but wouldn't the "Lightwave can be used to create games" thing kinda be.... redundant?

rebelr6: what programming language did you use to write the game plug-ins?

btw the projects list for anyone who wants to see it and who has forgot where it is can see it here: http://newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/projects_list.html

:)

-SS

rebelr6
05-23-2004, 07:59 AM
It't not just modelling. It also animation which is a huge area of game development. Hierarchical, boned and morph animation are used by virtually every game. The Lightwave API is in C and I used Visual C++ to build my plugins.

Another huge area is level design. Gone are the days when your 3D package just created models. It also must be able to be used as a level creating tool used by level designers. I have found Lightwave to be very good in this regard. My custom object plugin allows the setting of game properties (game object types, AI states etc) via the standard Lightwave interface. Looks far more professional than the equivalent tool which I wrote for Maya.



Originally posted by SamuraiSlayer
I know Lightwave can be good with games, and this is not to put down Lightwave, but aren't most other 3D apps just as good... I mean what can you use a 3D app for in the process of making a game? What I've come up with in my attempts at game creation are the following:

1. Modeling seems to be the only big use for a 3D app when creating a game (ok so this is one of LW's strong points...)

2. Since a lot of game engines are numeric, you can create the movement in the 3d app, and then copy the numerics to the game engine...

Now that's really all that I can think of... I'm sure that Lightwave could be promoted with all the game advertising and stuff but wouldn't the "Lightwave can be used to create games" thing kinda be.... redundant?

rebelr6: what programming language did you use to write the game plug-ins?

btw the projects list for anyone who wants to see it and who has forgot where it is can see it here: http://newtek.com/products/lightwave/product/projects_list.html

:)

-SS

SamuraiSlayer
05-23-2004, 08:08 AM
haha yea i draw my conclusions from lots of different perspectives because that's the only way you can find new information...

thx for the reply rebelr6 i will be taking all of that into consideration and hopefully it will help me in the future with game design :)

-SS

WilliamVaughan
05-23-2004, 09:56 AM
The guys at id have told us that they would do an article with us after crunch mode....they are trying to get the game out right about now :)

Eden FX profile is in the works along with other shops but they sit back burner while the people at NewTekk that create those interviews are busy getting 8.0 out teh door...

I agree that we need more press on our site about these projects....that is why Ben Vost has pumped out killer profiles at NewTek Europe and why the people at NewTek are working on them as well.

caesar
05-24-2004, 06:09 AM
Crush the competition !!!!
Forward NT, create a big bang party-advetising LW 8 launch! (just dont waste much money...)
There´re incredible films in LW 2004 list, and Doom3, Dark Sector for the games list (which is not updated) , NT cant be wrong = just gain share!
And of course, I always take a look at NT Europe - great jobs every week and so...
http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/commCrush unity/lightwave/index.html

pauland
05-24-2004, 06:49 AM
Ben is doing a great job. 3D World Magazine (http://www.3dworldmag.com) July issue has a two page 'Advertorial' about Partizan Midi-Minuit s 7-UP advert (using LW).

Paul

mkiii
05-24-2004, 07:01 AM
One massive part of the reason game developers use one app over another is to do with the SDD & how easy it is for a developer to ...

A) Work with it, converting data to a usable in-house format, and B) Find software engineers who have experience with it.

Needless to say, Max & Maya have addressed the first issue, and have a good SDK & scripting setup, making B more unlikely.

LW so far is lagging behind in both these aspects, generally limiting the work that people like myself do to simple modelling & texturing.

Everything I do has to go through Max to be converted to our in-house data because no one is developing useable games dev tools for Lightwave (including Newtek).

I soldier on (have been using LW for games now for about 6 years), but almost every other artist here is using Max, apart from a handful of Maya licenses, & I haven't seen anything recently or in the past couple of years that would convince anyone to swap over to LW.

caesar
05-24-2004, 08:11 AM
So, let me see - after LW 8 is realeased "officially", NT will work hard on delivering/opening (?) a full SDK, and so just then can LW compete head-to-head with the others apps in gaming programming?
When the SDK comes, FPrime will rock too...

Emmanuel
05-24-2004, 10:16 AM
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/html/technology/ue30.shtml

Thats the next train NT should try to catch, and of course:
"We provide plug-ins for 3D Studio Max and Maya to bring models into the Unreal engine with mesh topology, mapping coordinates, smoothing groups, material names, skeleton structure, and skeletal animation data."

Still quite a bit of time until first titles will ship (I heard of 2006/2007),
so plenty of time to make LW more appealing to gamedevelopers.

mkiii
05-24-2004, 12:19 PM
The problem is that games are being made right now, in Max & Maya. Developers that have already shelled out considerable sums on them for the licenses, the codebase & the tools are not about to just drop everything & go for LW unless there is something *REALLY* special to tempt them. The time for breaking into the *existing* market has long passed imho.

Obviously new developers can be tempted, especially if the support *does* materialise. But don't forget NT are playing catch up here.

Emmanuel
05-24-2004, 02:01 PM
Well then let's lay back and enjoy what we have, it seems like LW will remain where it is as far as games development goes.
So we can just hope that NT will keep adding features so that at least the modeling part will keep a foot in the door.
It just strikes me fancy that there are *some* studios that don't seem to have problems building their pipeline around LW despite its problematic API, like Croteam, for example.
And I wonder what exactly is lacking in LWs SDK that other packages seem to offer ?
Maybe also here the problem is that its separated in *lws and *.lwo ?
Same old story ?

jeanphi
05-24-2004, 03:50 PM
In Europe there is an "Historical reason" as well...
I started animation for video games in 1996 and most of games studios using PC were on 3DS4, and naturaly evolved to MAX.
LW was not realy used on PC but just on amiga for broadcast and architectural visualisation.
So, lost of peoples started to learn MAX as studios were using it.

You can add the fact that untill 7.0 LW had a big weak point: Character animation.
LW is still weak for game character animation because the IK solving engine does not support gimballock, so you need to add buffers bones to have your IK work better. That's what you can't do for games as you need the less bones as possible. And the add of buffer bones will not works for all your animations, you will have so much pain to set your knees and elbows on the right oriantation and need to generate tons of keys frames to prevent your IK to "pop" :( .

If Newtek wants to attract more studios, they need to work on the core of LW IK/FK solving engine.
IKBoost is a first try but need serious improvements and need to be fully integrated. Animation workflow with IKBoost is a pain and ergonomics are so bad...I realy think that Newtek need to work on the core and not adding an hermetic patch on the surface...

Rahnem
06-13-2004, 07:43 AM
Sorry if this is an old thread. I found it using search.

I am working on Pariah at the moment and I use Lightwave.

I would have to agree with mkii here. Lightwave at the moment seem to be content to play catch up with Maya/3Dsmax at the moment and not really striving ahead. Don't get me wrong, I love Lightwave, but there is no real reason why Lightwave should be a "must have" package for game devs. Maya has superior animation tools and Max has superior modelling tools (for straight polygon modelling at least).

However, I can see plenty of areas where NT could get some more patronage from game developers such as off the shelf support for normal mapping, pixel sharders, projective baking. (Microwave and Melody) and better support for texture formats (dds, 3dc).

caesar
06-14-2004, 07:33 AM
people from DE reading the forum! I agreed with you and Mkii - except MAX has better poly model tools ;)
I think its not an area NT would have difficulty to improve...if he wanted!

Emmanuel
06-14-2004, 08:00 AM
I had hopes that there would be some sort of cooperation between the LW-developers and DE, actually :rolleyes:
Especially when there was talk about improved bridges from LW to Unreal engine/game engines in general in 8....

PaQ
06-14-2004, 12:18 PM
However, I can see plenty of areas where NT could get some more patronage from game developers such as off the shelf support for normal mapping, pixel sharders, projective baking. (Microwave and Melody) and better support for texture formats (dds, 3dc).

Hi Rahnem,

I know microwave, but what's melody about (can't find any info :S))

And I have to agree, I'm also working in a game company in holland, and there is just not reason to use lightwave, except for organic/charachter modeling :(.

Rahnem
06-15-2004, 07:36 AM
I can't really comment on our intergration of LW in the sector engine. I'm only new to the DE (Toronto) team.

Melody is a nVidia's tool for making normal maps, like microwave. http://developer.nvidia.com/page/home

Lightwave 8 has a few new tools for polygon modelling such as super shift, rounder, cut, edge bevel etc which I am looking forward to. However similar tools have been available in Max and Maya for a year or more now.

caesar
06-15-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Rahnem
... NT could get some more patronage from game developers such as off the shelf support for normal mapping, pixel sharders, projective baking. (Microwave and Melody) and better support for texture formats (dds, 3dc).

Could that features be made by a 3rd party plugin/app with the current SDK/resources? It would be a great product .

Rahnem
06-15-2004, 09:23 AM
Microwave does most of the thing mentioned. http://www.evasion3d.com

Rahnem
06-15-2004, 09:29 AM
ATI has its own selection of tools also.
http://www.ati.com/developer/index.html

Lamont
06-15-2004, 09:56 AM
I've been using this one for some time now, works fine. I am sure you've seen this.

http://amber.rc.arizona.edu/lw/normalmaps.html

I don't want to sound like I am telling Newtek how to run a business or anything, maybe they are starting this now, but having 5 or 6 people who's sole purpose is to make Lightwave more game-dev centric.

- Someone working on viewport rendering (shadders, lighting)
- Another working on making exports to the popular formats (Again this is not a Newtek issue, but it would bring in swarms of modders/proffesionals)
- Tools for level/character design (this person should just swim in e-mail suggestions sent from the suggestions dept)
- Viewport speed and optimizations that take advantage of the videocard(s).
- Asset managing (Maybe provide solutions that connect with 3rd party asset management systems)
- UV MAPPING!! I have replaced my UV mapping tool with Texture Guide II.

All of these things are well documented and all over the net.

I know Newtek listens to users, I was way happy with texture-wireframe view (really :) ). But I haven't gotten my upgrade yet... I need something to push me over the fence besides that. :(

caesar
06-15-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Rahnem
Microwave does most of the thing mentioned. http://www.evasion3d.com

Well, the normal mapping plugin found in http://amber.rc.arizona.edu/lw/normalmaps.html is what I use, and its quite amazing (free and fast!).

But what about shaders and vga card´s texture compression? Only with that ATI dev site theres all the info for a LW solution?

And if gamehouses develop theirs in-house tools for that, why NT couldn´t - NT are aiming for others tools or features?

Last question = I knew a little about microwave, but i still dont know whats the main dif. between normal map and projective baking

i really know nothing about programming, so dont get me wrong if I say something stupid...

Rahnem
06-15-2004, 07:19 PM
Microwave's projective baking is like Lightwave's surface baker but better. I can make a high poly mesh and a low poly mesh in modeller and then in layout out set up a scene with all my lighting etc, and then bake the illumination of high poly mesh to the uv map of the low poly mesh. It's just like normal mapping but for regular textures. In Pariah we a doing a *lot* of baking.

Lamont: NT *really* needs to add more UV mapping tools. I get jealous whenever I see Max's UV tool set.

Lamont
06-15-2004, 08:47 PM
NT *really* needs to add more UV mapping tools. I get jealous whenever I see Max's UV tool set.Yeah, I use Max at work, and it's really a pain in the butt to know that it could be much better with Lightwave.

It just adds up in the end. A lot of small, very much managable things.

Karmacop
06-16-2004, 01:57 AM
Can you describe what the uv tools in max do? Or point to a tutorial or something that shows how they work?

Rahnem
06-16-2004, 07:45 AM
It's hard to find info out the net about specific functions. I'm downloading max 6 30 day trial help files atm so I can quote them.

The ones I like are relax uvs, which basically takes a uv map and spreads the points based on the meshes topology. Saves a lot of hard work. I also like edge stitching, which allows you to select an edge of two joined polygons and then snaps both polygons together in the uv map. Kinda hard to explain. It makes uv mapping like unfolding a cardboard box. Great for structural objects.

Lamont
06-16-2004, 07:50 AM
--- File menu ---

Save UV's—Saves the UVW coordinates to a .uvw file.

Load UV's—Loads previously saved .uvw files.

Reset All—Resets the UVW coordinates in the Edit UVWs dialog.

Choosing this is almost the same as removing and reapplying the modifier, except that a map assigned in the Edit UVWs dialog is not deleted. For example, if you forgot to turn on the Generate Mapping Coordinates check box for an object, and then applied the Unwrap UVW modifier, the modifier would have no UVW coordinates to use and its settings would be wrong. If you then go back in the Stack and turn on Generate Mapping Coordinates, you'd need to choose the Reset All command. When you do so, an alert warns you that you're losing any edits you've made.

--- Edit menu ---

These commands provide access to the different transform functions, and copy and paste selections.

Move Mode—Lets you select and move sub-objects.

Rotate Mode—Lets you select and rotate sub-objects.

Scale Mode—Lets you select and scale sub-objects.

Freeform Gizmo Mode—Lets you select and transform vertices. See Freeform Gizmo.

Copy—Copies the current selection (i.e., texture coordinates) into the paste buffer.

Paste—Applies the texture mapping coordinates in the paste buffer to the current selection. Using Paste repeatedly with the same target coordinates causes the coordinates to rotate by 90 degrees each time.

Use Copy and Paste to apply the same mapping coordinates (i.e., image) to a number of different geometry faces. A typical example of usage would be in designing a game level, where you're working with a multi-image texture map, part of which is a door image. You might want to apply the same door image to several different door polys. First, you would select one of the door polys and position it over the door image. Next, use Copy to place its texture coordinates in the paste buffer. Then select another door poly and choose Paste or Paste Weld. The door's texture coordinates move to the same location as the original poly. Continue selecting other door polys and pasting until all the doors are mapped.

Tip: For best results, use comparable sets of texture coordinates for the source and destination. For example, copy a single four-sided face, and the paste another four-sided face.

Paste Weld—Applies the contents of the paste buffer to the current selection and then welds coincident vertices, effectively fusing the source and destination selections together.

Use Paste Weld to end up with a single set of texture coordinates that's applied to multiple geometry elements. Adjusting these texture coordinates changes the mapping for all geometry to which they're applied.

--- Select menu ---

These commands let you copy a viewport selection to the editor, and transfer selections among the three different sub-object modes.

Get Selection From Viewport—Copies the viewport selection to the editor window.

Convert Vertex to Edge—Converts the current vertex selection to an edge selection and places you in Edge sub-object mode. For an edge to be selected, both of its vertices must be selected.

Convert Vertex to Face—Converts the current vertex selection to a face selection and places you in Face sub-object mode. For a face to be selected, all of its vertices must be selected.

Convert Edge to Vertex—Converts the current edge selection to a vertex selection and places you in Vertex sub-object mode.

Convert Edge to Face—Converts the current edge selection to a face selection and places you in Face sub-object mode. For a face to be selected, the current edge selection must include all of its vertices. For example, if two opposite edges of a four-sided face are selected, the edge selection includes all four of the face's vertices, so this command will select the face.

Convert Face to Vertex—Converts the current face selection to a vertex selection and places you in Vertex sub-object mode.

Convert Face to Edge—Converts the current face selection to an edge selection and places you in Edge sub-object mode.

--- Tools menu ---

Tools on this menu let you flip and mirror texture coordinates, weld vertices, combine and separate sets of texture coordinates, and sketch outlines for multiple selected vertices.

Flip Horizontal/Vertical—Detaches the selected sub-objects along their boundary edges and then applies Mirror Horizontal or Vertical, depending on the mode.

Mirror Horizontal/Vertical—Reverses the direction of selected sub-objects along the indicated axis and flips UVs accordingly.

Weld Selected—Welds selected sub-objects to a single vertex, based on the Weld Threshold setting. You can set the threshold on the Options panel > Unwrap Editor Options group, as well as on the Unwrap Options dialog > Misc. Preferences group.

Target Weld—Welds pairs of vertices or edges. Not available at the Face sub-object level.

Turn on Target Weld, and then drag one vertex to another vertex, or one edge to another edge. As you drag, the cursor changes in appearance to cross hairs when it's over a valid sub-object. While this command is active, you can continue welding sub-objects, and change the sub-object level. To exit Target Weld mode, right-click in the editor window.

Break—Applies to the current selection; works differently in the three sub-object modes. At the Vertex sub-object level, Break replaces each shared vertex with two vertices. With edges, Break requires at least two contiguous edges to be selected, and separates each edge into two. With faces, Break splits the selection off from the rest of the mesh into a new element, exactly as does Detach Edge Verts.

Detach Edge Verts—Tries to split off the current selection into a new element. Any invalid vertices or edges are removed from the selection set before the detach.

Stitch Selected—For the current selection, finds all the texture vertices that are assigned to the same geometric vertex, brings them all to the same spot, and welds them together. With this tool you can automatically connect faces that are contiguous in the object mesh but not in the editor.

Pack UVs—Distributes all texture-coordinate clusters through the texture space using one of two methods and spacing you specify. This is useful if you have several overlapping clusters and wish to separate them.

Choosing Pack UVs opens the Pack dialog.

Sketch Vertices—Lets you draw outlines for vertex selections with the mouse. This is useful for matching coordinate cluster outlines to sections of the texture map en masse, without having to move vertices one at a time.

Choosing Sketch Vertices opens the Sketch Tool dialog. Sketch Vertices is available only in the Vertex sub-object mode.

Relax Dialog—Lets you change the apparent surface tension in a selection of texture vertices by moving vertices closer to, or away from, their neighbors.

The Relax Dialog command is available only in the Vertex sub-object mode.

Note: This command, as well as a Relax command that lets you apply the default settings to the current selection without opening the dialog, are available as assignable keyboard shortcuts.

--- Mapping menu ---

Lets you apply one of three different types of automatic, procedural mapping methods to a model. Each method provides settings so you can adjust the mapping to the geometry you're using.

With each method, the mapping is applied to the current face selection; if there is no face selection it is applied to the entire mesh.

Here's a quick overview of the three methods:

Flatten mapping prevents overlap of mapping clusters, but can still cause texture distortion.

Normal mapping is the most straightforward method, but can result in even greater texture distortion than with Flatten mapping.

Unfold mapping eliminates texture distortion, but can result in overlapping coordinate clusters.

Flatten Mapping—Applies planar maps to groups of contiguous faces that fall within a specified angle threshold.

Choosing Flatten Mapping opens the Flatten Mapping dialog.

Normal Mapping—Applies planar maps based on different vector-projection methods.

Choosing Normal Mapping opens the Normal Mapping dialog.

Unfold Mapping—Unfolds the mesh so you get no face distortion, but does not guarantee that faces will overlap.

Choosing Unfold Mapping opens the Unfold Mapping dialog.

--- Options menu ---

Advanced Options—Opens the Unwrap Options dialog.

Load Defaults—Loads the editor settings from the file unwrapuvw.ini in the plugcfg directory.

Save Current Settings as Default—Saves the editor settings to the file unwrapuvw.ini in the plugcfg directory. Settings saved in this way persist between sessions.

Always Bring Up The Edit Window—When on, selecting an object with the Unwrap UVW modifier active automatically opens the Edit UVWs dialog. By default, this is off, so you must click the Parameters rollout > Edit button to open the dialog.

--- Display menu ---

Filter Selected Faces—When turned on, displays UVW vertices of the object's selected faces, and hides the rest.

Display Hidden Edges—Toggles the display of face edges. When turned off, only faces appear. When turned on, all mesh geometry appears.

Show Vertex Connections—In Vertex sub-object mode, toggles the display of numeric labels for all selected vertices. Shared vertices are indicated by the appearance of multiple same-numbered labels.

Show Shared Sub-objects—When turned on, for the current selection, highlights any shared vertices and/or edges. You can change the highlight color on the Unwrap Options dialog.

Update Map—If you change a bitmap used in the object's material, choose Update Map to refresh the editor window background and display the new image.

Lamont
06-16-2004, 07:54 AM
DStorms tool has quite a few features as well, just an interface that seems detatched from Lightwave.

There is a RelaxUV tool for Lightwave, just in beta. It's by Lynx3D (Members name). Check out the plugin dev section of the forum.

Emmanuel
06-16-2004, 12:37 PM
AND there are AT LEAST two tools for UV manipulation in LW which allow exactly for that "edge sewing" by selecting two edges and click, they are together in the UV-window.
Search on Fla, one is called "StitchUV" or "SewUV", there's a collection,too, its called "UV noodlekit" and Super UV tools" etc.
All free, of course.

Lamont
06-16-2004, 02:23 PM
I have those too :)

Rahnem
06-16-2004, 07:15 PM
I have them also, but game companies only look at what the package can do off the shelf, not what it can do after many hours of downloading plugins.