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View Full Version : Subdivision Order & Deformations: Put in a LIST



jin choung
05-17-2004, 12:58 AM
howdy,

this is to clarify a request that i've made before about merely setting subdivision to FIRST or LAST being insufficient:

we need a LIST that contains:

1. all possible GEOMETRY DEFORMATION OPERATIONS

and

2. WHEN SUBDIVISION HAPPENS.

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so, for instance, we want DISPLACEMENT MAPS to happen AFTER subdivision to give us nice hi-frequency details but we definitely want BONES to affect the mesh BEFORE subdivision so that we can weight the verts of the base cage and not ALL THE FRICKIN' VERTS AFTER SUBDIVISION (!!!) (and it usually results in nicer deformations anyway).

BUT

if we really get this point animation working in layout (with vertex anims showing up in the graph editor so that they can be tied to expressions) such that 'SMART SKINNING' becomes a reality, we might want VERTEX ANIMATION to be applied after bones, after subdivision, before (or after) displacements.

and if we ever got things like flexors or lattice deformation, we would definitely want to control when such things come into play.

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so we should be able to determine the order of not just when subdivision gets done relative to the deformation operations (although this is crucial), we should also be able to determine when deformations operations get done RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER!!!

this means of course that there is one standard DEFAULT ORDER that all objects come with which will represent most situations but then it gives the user complete freedom to alter this order according to their needs.

thank you.

jin

p.s. this can get really tricky and node like if we bring in the concept of 'INSTANCES OF' deformation operations but if we can't take it that far, let's just get the basics of the above... which should require no special or unique change in the philosophy of the existing architecture.

Panikos
05-17-2004, 01:19 AM
Yes, indeed, this part of LW needs revsion.

Subdivision should become a plugin. This would allow the user to place it anywhere in the stack of deforming operations.
(Displaying is not a problem at all)

MorphMixer denies to co-operate with some plugins.

Karmacop
05-18-2004, 02:20 AM
Yep, I've said this before on the mailing list I think. Bones, sub division and displacement maps should all be in the deformation tab.

wacom
05-18-2004, 04:49 AM
Not to bring up another hot topic...but I've read that this would also aid in fixing the UV problems with Sub-Ds...is this true?

jin choung
05-18-2004, 05:23 AM
hahaha...

wow... yes. it would. if you dropped UV MAPPING into that list after subdivision!

then you can simply uv map the hi res mesh (which i've been championing by way of a link between two separate models) - no fuss no muss.

but since uv mapping (texture projection) isn't a deformation it would probably open up a pandora's box cuz that's just a hop skip and jump away from having a full on object history - meaning that initial jump would be prohibitive; imo.

yup, having an actual history proper would cure a lot of ails... but it's a big job.

jin

Exper
05-18-2004, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
yup, having an actual history proper would cure a lot of ails... but it's a big job.Cross said they will update the LW's core-architecture version after version...
so...
I'm not expecting this one in a short term...
come NT and prove that I'm a charlatan! :D

Karmacop
05-18-2004, 08:32 AM
The uv mapping is a problem because of how they do their subd surfaces, not when they are done. But what Jin says would make it better. I have this feeling that no one is implementing them how they're meant to be ....

Nemoid
05-19-2004, 06:06 AM
I agree with Jin about the list. this would require an history manager panel though.:D

But.. distortions in UV for subdivisions objects come from what? wrong algorythm? crap implementation?I think this thing need to be fixed soon as it is surely possible.

Dr Cross said that, Exper, but i hope not to wait that many releases to see a new core. :D In a few words...

I hope you're a charlatan! :p