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Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 09:28 AM
I have the [8] upgrade w/o a printed manual. I thought there was supposed to be a pdf manual, but I don't see one. Am I just missing it or isn't there one?

kml12
05-05-2004, 09:31 AM
We're waiting for Newtek to finish it.

Any idea when Proton or Chuck?

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 09:40 AM
Oh, ok. Thanks.

That's kinda weird, isn't it?

tjacobs
05-05-2004, 10:10 AM
Not having the PDF is a bit weird, but not having the printed manual is not so weird since it can take months to print it.

As for the PDF, hopefully they are putting in plenty of examples / tutorials.

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 10:16 AM
I just feel bad for new users. I know to come here or CGTAlk (he hee, well, I can't go there at the moment) but someone new would be a little lost.

So 3rd-party books will come out before the actual manual? Weird.

bloontz
05-05-2004, 10:49 AM
Actually I don't think you can purchase 8 as a new user, it hasn't been officially released. My guess is they have to finish the manual and that is holding up the release.

mlinde
05-05-2004, 10:49 AM
The PDF manual will be available as a download as soon as the printed manual is completed. In the meantime, the online help is supposed to be good and work in both Mac and Windows this time...

paulrus
05-05-2004, 11:04 AM
It's the same reason the LW 8 disks are being shipped on CD-Rs right now - they were working on it up till the very last moment. I think now they're taking time to make sure they get their ducks in a row.

Chuck
05-05-2004, 11:17 AM
Bear in mind that the Help File is a complete reference manual. When the version of the docs that we are preparing for print is complete, it will be supplied in PDF format as well.

Exper
05-05-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by bloontz
Actually I don't think you can purchase 8 as a new userThey're sending only pre-ordered ones!

LW8 is not yet available for new users.

theo
05-05-2004, 11:40 AM
Zara- just use the Lightwave Help/Contents program. That is darn sweet and in my opinion better than a PDF.

kmscottmoore
05-05-2004, 11:56 AM
I think it's a conspiracy. Dan Ablan is sure to double his sales of Inside Lightwave 8, because of the lack of a printed manual.

Personally, I hate the flash-based help file. I'll take a good 'ole dead-tree based book any day.

I was kidding about the Dan Ablan thing. His books are usually excellent, and he answers emails promptly. I would buy his book even if Lightwave came with a manual. Which I did for both versions 6 and 7.

However, it does peeve me that Newtek is cutting costs by eliminating the hard copy documentation.

paulrus
05-05-2004, 12:01 PM
And keep in mind, Dan's book is going to be around 1000 pages and will come with a DVD full of video tutorials.

Signal to Noise
05-05-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Bear in mind that the Help File is a complete reference manual. ...

Hi Chuck. Sorry but I need to make a comment here. The on-line Help File that shipped with [8] is by no means complete. I noticed a few (so far) key items missing that I feel should have been included. If you are not aware I started a thread here (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22281) about it. Hope that's okay.

I want to make the next release of the manual to be the best there is. I also hope NewTek takes heed and ensures the hardcopy manual is as concise as possible when it gets published.

I'm fairly new to the World of LightWave and want to see it do well as the years go on. One of my biggest loves is books & information. One of my biggest peeves is a "reference" book lacking important information. Hopefully I can contribute in a positive way.

Cheers!

dablan
05-05-2004, 12:16 PM
Hey, thanks guys for the support!

The book is tipping 1000 pages, and is currently be laid out. We're looking at a June release, so I think the NewTek manuals will be out before Inside 8.

LW 8 Killer Tips is out and shipping, however.
Take a look HERE (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735713715/danablandotcom/102-8075680-6494539)


Thanks again.

theo
05-05-2004, 12:24 PM
I am a huge book fan as well and it would be great to have a manual but I just don't understand why the Help system is getting such a negative review here. It's a whole lot better than nothing guys.

The only problem with Dan Ablan books is that there are none.:D

art
05-05-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by dablan

LW 8 Killer Tips is out and shipping, however.
Take a look HERE (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735713715/danablandotcom/102-8075680-6494539)


Thanks again.

Yes! and I just received it today. Can't wait to dig into it once I get back from work. I like the fact that it is in full color.

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 12:52 PM
I already joked that there would be 3rd party books before a manual.

I've said numeous times in the past that I think of Dan's Inside books AS the manual.
I just wish Dan put out a 'Here's what's new in [8]" book so I won't have to pay for the Head tutorial for a 3rd time. I mean it's good, but... oh wait, I guess that's the Killer Tips book. Nevermind.


I don't think the help thingy is a substitute for a manual but yes, it's better then nothing.

I would just like a manual to look at. That's all. Is there a rough ETA, Chuck?

N2ChristTheKing
05-05-2004, 01:06 PM
Zarathustra, I'm pretty sure that Inside LW 8 is a complete rewrite and is all new content. Correct me if I'm wrong Dan, but I don't think you'll be seeing the head tutorial again. Now where's a buttrock smiley when you need one.

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 01:28 PM
OK, cool. The enclosed DVD sounds cool. Hopefully Border's will have it on the shelf so I can peruse it.
The Killer Tips or 1001 tips or whatever is a bit rarer to find on the shelf.

Chuck
05-05-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by kmscottmoore
I think it's a conspiracy. Dan Ablan is sure to double his sales of Inside Lightwave 8, because of the lack of a printed manual.

Personally, I hate the flash-based help file. I'll take a good 'ole dead-tree based book any day.

I was kidding about the Dan Ablan thing. His books are usually excellent, and he answers emails promptly. I would buy his book even if Lightwave came with a manual. Which I did for both versions 6 and 7.

However, it does peeve me that Newtek is cutting costs by eliminating the hard copy documentation.

To repeat, LightWave [8] has not been officially launched. The printed documentation is still being completed. The printed documentation for LightWave [8] will include a reference manual and a tutorial manual. The regular SKUs for upgrades and for new licenses will still be available and will still include printed manuals. There will also be options available however, for those who do not wish to have printed documentation.

Chuck
05-05-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Signal to Noise
Hi Chuck. Sorry but I need to make a comment here. The on-line Help File that shipped with [8] is by no means complete. I noticed a few (so far) key items missing that I feel should have been included. If you are not aware I started a thread here (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22281) about it. Hope that's okay.

That's better than okay, that's great - if we've missed anything please let us know, so we can make sure we have it in the next revision of the Help File.

Chuck
05-05-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
The printed documentation for LightWave [8] will include a reference manual and a tutorial manual.

I should note the reference manual is somewhat larger than the current reference manual - and we did not have a tutorial manual as part of the 7.x documentation. So, as opposed to there being a lack of a printed manual, there will be two and these amount to substantially more printed documentation than we've delivered in the previous version.

Chuck
05-05-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
I would just like a manual to look at. That's all. Is there a rough ETA, Chuck?

Long ago we had a programmer who used to say, when asked for estimates, "Before the Sun explodes." In this case, I'm marginally hopeful that we will have the manuals out before my head explodes... ;)

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 01:57 PM
Thanks Chuck for responding quickly. I tried CS but they never respond.

kmscottmoore
05-05-2004, 02:02 PM
Chuck,

I'm not sure I understand the part about "the regular SKUs for upgrades"
Does this mean that those of us who pre-ordered and received are discs already will NOT get the manual? Do we have regular SKUs or some sort of special pre-order SKUs?

Try to understand: we were expecting 8 by Christmas of last year based on NewTek's own promises (see extensive posts elsewhere on this forum.) NewTek took an additional 4 months putting "finishing touches" on the software, and it is still not "officially released?" I would think that the book would be one of those final details.

This has probably been the most anticipated release in Lightwave's history, and when we got our copies, we were all eager to dig in and start experimenting. Using the help file is cumbersome and not totally intuitive. There is no real index, only a search function. The videos that Proton put together were great as a preview tool, but I think we all are looking for something a bit more substantial.

--Scott

mattclary
05-05-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by kmscottmoore
Does this mean that those of us who pre-ordered and received are discs already will NOT get the manual?

You will get the PDF (by download, I assume), you will NOT get a printed manual unless you pay extra for it.

This has been discussed at length in other threads, please don't complain. That's been done at length in other threads also.

dablan
05-05-2004, 02:40 PM
Zarathustra,

thanks for the kind words.

Inside 8 is a complete re-write. I've re-organized the entire book.
Some of the basic information is similar, but we have entirely new tutorials, and no female head model. In fact, we have box modeling used to make a cool cartoon character (thanks Proton), point by point method to build a car, subpatch modeling to build electronics, and spline modeling to model a sculpture-like character.

I think we've all had enough female head models for a while. Funny thing is, I was just comissioned to do a full 'hot chic' model for a video game. I can't escape!

:)

Wade
05-05-2004, 02:47 PM
Just arrived Macromedia Studio MX2004 with flash pro... NO paper manuel even for a new user like me. :(

SLAYER
05-05-2004, 05:16 PM
Chuck, or anyone who may know,

Is the turorial manual going to be the same tutorials we got in the new 8 help system?

Hopefully better.

Will this tutorial manual be available as PDF download as well?

Thanks

Zarathustra
05-05-2004, 05:30 PM
I just looked at your head model again, Dan, for reference. I just have a mental block when it comes to modeling lips. I don't know why.

I guess I feel pretty secure when it comes to modeling (with the exception of lips). I just would like something focused on new features and changes in [8]. Perhaps the Killer Tips book is more my speed. I have to have it in my hand to evaluate.

I'm waiting for someone to tap Ripper to write a chapter somewhere. Those are some damn fine heads he's made.

So how big are these manuals going to be, Chuck? Sounds huge. I guess that's why it costs $100 for the printed manuals?

tokyo drifter
05-05-2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Wade
Just arrived Macromedia Studio MX2004 with flash pro... NO paper manuel even for a new user like me. :( Yep, and the help system isn't very helpful and not very newbie friendly. I think they expect people to buy the "macromedia press" books, which are very good when starting out. I've bought about five Flash Mx books that I refer to all the time.


And I do like the new LW8 help, although I hope the manual goes into more detail. And the tutorial manual sounds great!

dablan
05-05-2004, 06:56 PM
You need to give credit to Stu Aitken, who did that original model. It's top notch. What's more, is he did it about 4 years ago, long before a lot of these new tools were available, like spin quads, band saw, etc.

Taron's heads (to me) are the best, along with Stephen Stahlberg. The proportions are dead on, and the eyes all work. I think the number one problem I see (no pun intended) is that the eyes and / or eyelids just don't work on most head models. This goes the same for my models. I long to have the Taron/Stahlberg talent :(

riki
05-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Hey Zara, what happened at CGTalk?? I'm currently waiting on about four LW books to ship. Not sure what I'm going to do when they all arrive :)

theo
05-05-2004, 08:25 PM
Chuck wrote:
Long ago we had a programmer who used to say, when asked for estimates, "Before the Sun explodes." In this case, I'm marginally hopeful that we will have the manuals out before my head explodes...

Chuck! Now that would make for some excellent stock footage. If you do decide to let your head explode please give me a heads up so I can get somebody over there with a couple of cameras and get that puppy on film at various angles and all.

Sad day for Newtek though- but at least I can make a few bucks with a new "Exploding Head" DVD.

Also- you wouldn't happen to have a couple of studio lights around that you could set up for us beforehand would you? That would be great.

There is one problem though... I may want you to sign a waiver releasing us from any foul play issues that might arise if an over-zealous cop gets his hands on my footage.

You might also want to have the janitor available as well as this might turn into a rather messy shoot.

I sure hope my professionalism will kick into overdrive if an eyeball flies straight into the camera lens. Geesh now that brings up another issue- camera angles. That's going to be a doozy. Might have to employ some fancy footwork with all that flesh flying around. ANYways.... let me know....:D

Zach
05-05-2004, 09:09 PM
Agreed D.A., those guys are great!

I just got the Killer Tips book, and that's great to read over and over agin and practice saying the tips as a mantra. Eventually, all of the them just sink in like a muscle reflex...

Just can't wait for the, Usually Killer "Inside Lightwave" release!

Chuck
05-06-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by SLAYER
Chuck, or anyone who may know,

Is the turorial manual going to be the same tutorials we got in the new 8 help system?

Hopefully better.

Will this tutorial manual be available as PDF download as well?

Thanks

The tutorial manual is a different set of tutorials, and will not be available in PDF format.

Exper
05-06-2004, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
The tutorial manual is a different set of tutorials, and will not be available in PDF format. I really don't understand!
Why not?

Signal to Noise
05-06-2004, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Exper
...
Why not?

Because.

Gregor
05-06-2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
The tutorial manual is a different set of tutorials, and will not be available in PDF format.

Err, what?

I wasn't aware there were differences in content between the printed and electronic manual options ...

Karmacop
05-06-2004, 09:35 AM
Umm ... will there be any way for us to get these tutorials except for ordering a hard copy? :(

Chuck
05-06-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Signal to Noise
Because.

That's only partly correct. The complete answer includes several more words.

;)

Chuck
05-06-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Exper
I really don't understand!
Why not?

Because our agreement with the publisher producing the tutorial manual precludes letting us provide it in electronic form. A longer version with additional tutorials will be available through retail booksellers.

Hmmmm. I guess that "several more words" was an underestimate. "Many more words and an additional sentence" would have been correct. Apologies, Signal! :)

Zarathustra
05-06-2004, 04:26 PM
Wait a minute. Now there's a difference between what's in the pdf manuals and the printed ones? What kind of nonsense is this?


Riki or anyone else interested: I was banned from CGTalk. I don't want to pollute this space, so if you have any questions concerning that then email me and don't post here about it. Thanks. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress...

Zarathustra
05-06-2004, 04:27 PM
Oh. Well that sucks.

JeF
05-06-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Because our agreement with the publisher producing the tutorial manual precludes letting us provide it in electronic form. A longer version with additional tutorials will be available through retail booksellers.

Hmmmm. I guess that "several more words" was an underestimate. "Many more words and an additional sentence" would have been correct. Apologies, Signal! :)

Hum.. So the content of the electronic update isn't the same as the full update one!?

theo
05-06-2004, 04:38 PM
Zarathustra wrote
Riki or anyone else interested: I was banned from CGTalk.

Hmmmm.... I cannot believe Zarathustra was banned from a forum. Oh my, what's the world coming to. Naughty, naughty Zarathustra... naughty, naughty.

Zarathustra
05-06-2004, 05:00 PM
:rolleyes:

SLAYER
05-06-2004, 06:58 PM
So where is the Lewis Phone Tutorial going to be?

According to this thread:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=14720&highlight=phone

It was supposed to be in PDF format on the content disk.

SLAYER
05-06-2004, 07:02 PM
A longer version with additional tutorials will be available through retail booksellers.

Does this mean that Newtek will be making a book available for purchase?

Better yet, will Newtek start creating a library of books available for purchase?

This would be great if Newtek did this the way that Alias creates the library of books to purchase for MAYA.

riki
05-06-2004, 07:29 PM
I wanna to see more DVDs video tuts on the market, at a Gnomon style price $69.95 each.

Hey Zara we know you're dying to talk about the CG ban. Spill the dirt man, I love a good soapy.

BTW Chuck will I be able to use my Tim Bucks towards the purchase price of the manual. If so, who can I buy it through, given the fact that I'm not able to deal directly with Newtek?

Zarathustra
05-06-2004, 07:30 PM
I don't think you should have to pay extra for an application's manual(s).

Questions? email me:[email protected]

Signal to Noise
05-06-2004, 07:30 PM
I agree with Slayer. Having a NewTek line of books availble for purchase is a great idea. Just don't make them as insanely priced as the Alias' ones (not that I'd be buying any shMaya ones!;) )


Originally posted by Zarathustra
I don't think you should have to pay extra for an application's manual(s).

This seems to be the norm though nowadays. Hell, a friend of mine works in the aeronautical industry. He told me that when a company/airline buy a plane or helicopter the manuals for those are extra! The first one his company bought sat in the hangar for a week because they didn't know this and had to order the manuals after the fact. There were 16 volumes of manuals for this particular aircraft- each one costing about $600!

So $100 for a manual to software we love and enjoy using? I don't mind. LW is still a low-cost app compared to the others out there.

Aegis
05-06-2004, 10:59 PM
Sounds like the tutorial manual is an extract from somebody's LightWave 8 book... Umm... Inside LightWave 8 possibly? (it'd make a lot of sense) Any thoughts on this Dan? :)

Anyway - I wouldn't get upset about the lack of a PDF - If it's a "sampler" for all we know it could be a booklet the size of the Motion Mixer one.

I'm gonna pony up the dough for the box and manuals anyway 'cause my software shelf needs lurve too... :D

dablan
05-06-2004, 11:44 PM
A couple of years ago, we worked out a deal to have me write a book that New Riders would publish - this would be included with each copy of LightWave.

For whatever reason, it never happened. I think however they're doing something with Tim Albee's book - it was posted somewhere. Chuck?

Exper
05-07-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Because our agreement with the publisher producing the tutorial manual precludes letting us provide it in electronic form. A longer version with additional tutorials will be available through retail booksellers.Chuck...
I don't want seem rude...
but it's surely unfair to everyone which pre-ordered LW8!

Then...
finally NT is publishing some good book (like every other company out there).

colkai
05-07-2004, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by Exper
Chuck...
I don't want seem rude...
but it's surely unfair to everyone which pre-ordered LW8!


Agreed, let's hope something is put in place for us. I would imagine so, but then, who knows?
I was hoping that the tutorials would be available in PDF / download form, otherwise it precludes those who can't afford $100 for the manuals from getting all the info that relates to this release.
It's a good way to upset people, and as it stands, a lot of folks are already *pretty* upset.

I'd like my copy hand delivered by Claudia Schiffer too! :D

theo
05-07-2004, 05:07 AM
I like the Claudia Schiffer idea and think Newtek should seriously consider this :D - but gosh, guys you are going to hate me and, yes, I too would prefer a free manual but in the end if this is an attempt by Newtek to help cover expenses and maybe make a couple of extra bucks to put back into LW8+ I personally don't mind forking out the cash for the manual.

sleiron
05-07-2004, 05:26 AM
btw: talking about girls....

who's the creator of the character on the backcover of LW8?

Is it Dan Ablan?

Does 'she' have a name?

Just wondering because I seen here also on Newtek's website and now LW8.

cheers
sleiron

JeF
05-07-2004, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by sleiron
btw: talking about girls....
who's the creator of the character on the backcover of LW8?


I guess it's Werner's girl.
I haven't received mine yet so i'm not sure.

colkai
05-07-2004, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by theo
I too would prefer a free manual but in the end if this is an attempt by Newtek to help cover expenses and maybe make a couple of extra bucks to put back into LW8+ I personally don't mind forking out the cash for the manual.

Oops, didn't menu to imply didn't want to pay for a paper manual, but I do think the option of a PDF as in the days of old would be good.

mkiii
05-07-2004, 06:58 AM
I dunno. I think 400 leaves plenty of room to cover the cost of a book especially when the majority of people who upgraded from an earlier version didn't get the manual for that upgrade either - or so I've been informed.

Exper
05-07-2004, 07:21 AM
And then... others are leaving the building now... read out-there... choose a forum... click... and read! :(

dablan
05-07-2004, 08:02 AM
who's the creator of the character on the backcover of LW8?


From what Werner has said, that model was based on the tutorial in my Inside LightWave 7 book, created by Stu Aitken. Werner then took it a step further adding his own style.

claymation
05-07-2004, 10:21 AM
I just started a help file eratta thread in tips and tricks

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22518

Thought I would post a link here since it is the current manual and Chuck brought up the idea of having a thread with issue so he can have someone look them up.

Original1
05-07-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Wade
Just arrived Macromedia Studio MX2004 with flash pro... NO paper manuel even for a new user like me. :(

Wade if its the programming stuff you want this is the best manual for actionscript 2.0

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0321228413/qid=1083952918/sr=8-5/ref=pd_ka_5/104-4585480-3458353?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

theo
05-07-2004, 02:34 PM
My personal preference for learning anything actionscript related is ANY book written by Colin Moock as well as the Flash books by Friends Of Ed- I would also include in this line-up the Flash MX Actionscript Bible.

I love Actionscript and have the Developer version of Flash and use it as much as I can, which is quite often.

Original1
05-08-2004, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by theo
My personal preference for learning anything actionscript related is ANY book written by Colin Moock as well as the Flash books by Friends Of Ed- I would also include in this line-up the Flash MX Actionscript Bible.

I love Actionscript and have the Developer version of Flash and use it as much as I can, which is quite often.

yeah but Colin was not going to do an Actionscript 2.0 version of the Definative Guide and that one is good value at only $17

theo
05-08-2004, 06:00 AM
Your choice was a good one Original- I wasn't slighting you or anything- just adding.

N2ChristTheKing
05-08-2004, 10:31 AM
Don't worry to much about not getting the tutorial manual, you'll all probably be buying the full version of it anyway. I'm not sure if it's been publicly posted what this is, but it's been in the works for a long time now so I'm sure many know about it already.

Go look at Dan's post...*hint* *hint* ;)