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Ade
05-04-2004, 02:54 AM
Instances
SSS
Edges...

2 of these atleast we all could use.
Architecturally we could use em all.
I put my money where my mouth is and bought LW8 to help development of further versions.
m happy with the new NEWTEK and ask them how hard is it to include these features in properly and not some half featured plugin.


I started this post because soo many times clients ask to adjust camfers to certain ojects and I have to recreate the shape..
Now with FPrime, id say NT can breathe easiler and concentrate on modelling for one update then enhance GI in a .5 update.

Exper
05-04-2004, 03:25 AM
Though still waiting for 8...
I'd like to see NewTek looking outside around the world...
take a look at what other developers are doing: not only new features but also strategic partnerships!

Ade
05-04-2004, 03:41 AM
Exper the way i think is architecture is a scene Newtek hasnt much catered for. Yet behind the scenes many architect renderers like LW cause of the renderer BUT are scared by its lack of instances...

SSS and edges are like niceties to lure more ppl over.
Everone can enjoy instances not just archi's.

hrgiger
05-04-2004, 03:51 AM
I'd just rather have a faster interface myself...

Beamtracer
05-04-2004, 04:53 AM
We can get SSS via plug-ins, so I don't see that as a priority. The priority should be features that are needed that there are no plug-ins for, and no workarounds. These are the most problematic.

tudor
05-04-2004, 04:57 AM
I'd say that we need proper subpixel displacement. Add that to the list.
SSS.. That is a very subtle effect that I would rarely use.
More options when using HDRI would be nice. Cross, cube etc.

Karmacop
05-04-2004, 04:59 AM
I think edges is very important. There's so many things that depend on the program having edges that I think it should be the highest priority feature.

mattclary
05-04-2004, 05:49 AM
Is it even possible to implement edges in a polygonal modeler? It seems to be something you would only have with a NURBS based modeler. Are there any poly modelers out there that support edges?

Chazz
05-04-2004, 05:58 AM
Lightwave's modeler is about the only one that doesn't support edges.

Ade
05-04-2004, 06:48 AM
Nurbs is too much a big deal, even Maya nurbs suck. Leave nurbs to solid thinking, Form z and rhino for now...

LW doesnt do edges nor instances and I thinik thats where LW has massively fallen behind.

lasco
05-04-2004, 07:12 AM
Nurbs is too much a big deal,

I share this point of view and would say that or "point by point"
ability for modeling is what gives the more freedom.

I looked for someone to work with me recently
and only found a guy that used C4D. I said : well why not after all
from the moment we can share files…

OK in 1 week I understood what means a modeler that sucks :
Don't even ask to C4D to make a boolean !
You'll get a meshe with 10 times more points that needed,
almost of them being created like "randomly", with no link
to your starting geometry, and the worst : zoom in high and
you discover that none of the points have a correct position,
no alignements etc.

Now I told my friend to quickly learn a modeler : Lightwave

midosujisen
05-04-2004, 07:29 AM
Is the next point release the Modeler update?

anieves
05-04-2004, 07:44 AM
I do medical animation work and SSS would enhance my work tremendously. If I ask for a 500 bucks plugins for everything that LW only has via plugins my boss would just laugh at me and say why are we using LW in the first place.

If Newtek takes the position of not to develop something, even if it is a good idea and would make LW stronger amongst the competition because "there is a plugin out there" LW will not advance and ppl will move on.

I sure hope NT doesn't take that position.

wacom
05-04-2004, 08:00 AM
When it comes to the whole edge debate I think there has to be some way that is better or more "do able" in lw 8.5 or 9. I don't know if we need full nurbs for this or something diffrent. Maybe something that used displacement map fall off through gradients? We'd need to have displacement maps first, but it would give us more flexablity in some ways...

I just think they need to keep trying to think outside of the box as it is what has made LW a good app at it's price point in the past. I think that though it needs to come along more, IKBooster and bone dynamics are good semi-new ideas for old problems. Maybe they'll come up with a solution that if not better is diffrent and has some merit for these other problems.

I'd like to see more of us users give ideas with our feature requests that might illustrate a creative solution. I think that if I was a programer I might get sick of just hearing "copy xyz" all the time, and not something new I could sink my teeth into. Instead of saying why your pencil sucks you should also state how it could be better, and then what the "bestest" pencil would do. Look at how vertex maps are now a major part of the dynamics engine- those were user requests/solutions.

For instances there isn't any real "creative" alternative. There are workarounds, but alternatives no.

BTW G2 does do SSS, but many of us don't need a lot of the "other" good stuff in the package. If worley sold a very basic version of the SSS in it I'd buy it ASAP...

grafikimon
05-04-2004, 08:11 AM
Most software now has edges. Even truespace, which i'm sure a few of use first cut our teeth on years ago. Wings, silo, xsi, max, maya, just to name a few all have edges. If they could get the same fuctionality out of a poly as an edge I'd be happy.

peteb
05-04-2004, 09:23 AM
I would like to see more consistency between Layout and Model. My two main gripes are that Layout has a gizmo and yet model doesn't. And also moving objects in Layout keeps the textures on the model and yet in model the texture stays stuck to world cords.

Matt
05-04-2004, 09:57 AM
I guess mine would be:

Way faster rendering, much, much, much better DOF/AA/MB, product design/architectural tools (snapping, drawing tools, alignment, true instancing etc.)

Matt
05-04-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by anieves
If Newtek takes the position of not to develop something, even if it is a good idea and would make LW stronger amongst the competition because "there is a plugin out there" LW will not advance and ppl will move on.

I sure hope NT doesn't take that position.

I agree on this point, until plugins can be _fully_ integrated some features should just be built-in. Some features work fine as plugins, others don't.

Exper
05-04-2004, 10:30 AM
Agree too... and very important!

The greatest missing feature:
hoping the new Dev. Team will be a lot more open-minded than the old one!

;)

cresshead
05-04-2004, 11:27 AM
instancing?...hd instance can do most of the work you requir hough having instancing win modeler woud be nice too...so there's a solution already.

SSS...mostly it's a gimmick with ay to day needs of sss [sub surface scattering]as very few and there's a few freee plugins tha can cater for this and i believe that worely has this in one of their plugins already to some degree so that's covered already.

edges...
we could have edges brought into modeler..that wold be a god move for sure and seeing as wings3d [free] and silo have them i can't see why newtek can't implement them at some stage.

...i'd like asome sort of history in modeler so i can go back to beizer curves and adjust their handels or number of points with a bevel ontop of the history and see the result like i can in 3dsmax.

layout would be nice to be able to have 2 differnet cameras or more n a quad viewport...

ik booster...being able to use it and truly pin down feet would be nice...this hould be being worked on right now i hope,...or a tutorial that will show you haw would also be nice!

cheers...off for some tea!

Jean-Paul Lar.
05-04-2004, 11:37 AM
It would be nice if they would make hd instance for the mac. In there faq it says eventually but its said that for around a year now.kinda off topic sorry. :)

cresshead
05-04-2004, 11:56 AM
don't know that..and i'm thnking of a mac next....

is there a list of plugins for mac?
or a plugin list of what plugins are NOT for mac....

wold be good to know what i'll be missing if/when i get a mac.

steveg

jamesl
05-04-2004, 12:02 PM
If you need SSS, and you have $30, you can get OGO_Hikari. http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~pq1a-ogs/sss_e.html

I think the biggest thing that Newtek needs to work on is opening up the architecture for 3rd party renderers, etc. Heck, even open up the Hub so that external programs can interact with Layout and Modeler. Make the hub something other apps envy instead of LW's achielles heel. I want a program that will 'eavesdrop' on the hub, capture modeler activity to a file that can be loaded into layout and applied to an object as an envelopable displacement. Now that would be cool.

j

brap
05-04-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by jamesl
Make the hub something other apps envy instead of LW's achielles heel. I want a program that will 'eavesdrop' on the hub, capture modeler activity to a file that can be loaded into layout and applied to an object as an envelopable displacement. Now that would be cool.

j

That is a powerful thought! Modeler interacting directly with Maya. Yeah, Newtek would sell a TON of seats with that.

ACLOBO
05-04-2004, 02:52 PM
This is a little off topic, but someone mentioned that there is a problem with foor pinning while using IK booster. I had a thought when I got out of the shower (revelations come to me atweird moments).

IK booster seems to be something that was designed to work with the new dynamics. Could you have a floor collision object setup so that your characters feet would actually hit and deform to the floor (and with some resistance settings - stick)? Maybe I am way off - but this thought just jumped in my head this morning after hearing someone say that IKBooster seems to have designed to work with the new dynamics...

I have to admit that I am no pro animator - heck most of my time has been in modeler since LW 3.5

-Adrian

Cageman
05-04-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Exper
Though still waiting for 8...
I'd like to see NewTek looking outside around the world...
take a look at what other developers are doing: not only new features but also strategic partnerships!

That´s a good thing to do... but the SDK needs to be opened up first...no? (if NT want developers to write plugins)...

3DBob
05-04-2004, 05:00 PM
I'm with the sub-pixel true displacement. I have yearned for this for years.

Bob

Fasty
05-04-2004, 06:22 PM
I'm with cresshead regarding sss.

How about undo's for EVERYTHING in both modeller and layout? Text inputs, surface changes... EVERYTHING.

Hervé
05-04-2004, 11:43 PM
Instancing, well I would have love that.... but Friends, we are not going to see Instancing in Modeler for a while I guess..... why...?

Watch that..... ( the plugin series continues)

http://www.evasion3d.com/

Look for their last mesh paint...
(note : I have nothing against Evasion, they ar great people !)

So you think LW is not expensive... it is my friend... look all the plugins you have to buy to make LW fully workable...!

Sure you can just use the LW out of the box.... you could decide also to stop 3D, go to the beach and get some tan....:mad:

I mean Each month there is a new one that fills a LW "no, no"...

Count on your little finger how many plugins....

Why NT did not employed Steve Worley, and the people of Evasion, and Ogo Hikari, I mean everything would have been there !!:confused:

Aegis
05-05-2004, 12:18 AM
So you think LW is not expensive... it is my friend... look all the plugins you have to buy to make LW fully workable...!

I have to take issue with that Hervé - whilst there are certainly gaps in LightWave's toolset, there's no real showstoppers for me. There are always 3rd party products that provide new features, convenience and workflow enhancements but whether they are necessary or whether LightWave is not "fully workable" without them is debatable.

For the record, the first plugin I ever bought was FPrime which I followed up with all of Steve Worley's plugins plus VertiBevel, ResPower's Super UV and the IFW2 Textures. Are the essential? No. Are they useful? Hell yeah! In my career so far I've worked on 1 feature motion picture, 3 straight to video movies and 2 television shows (including Captain Scarlet which I'm working on now). Scarlet is the first major project I've worked on that's required the use of 3rd party plugins. One of LightWave's great strengths has always been it's versatility - there's been a number of times in the past when a 3rd party plugin may had helped or speeded the workflow but no occaisions where LightWave's (lack of) out-of-the-box functionality has proved to be a show-stopper. To those that think LightWave is under-powered or under-featured I say dig a little deeper, learn a little harder and don't blame your tools...

tokyo drifter
05-05-2004, 01:17 AM
Hervé, I can see where you're coming from. It sucks that people have to make plug-ins to fill the holes in Lightwave. But think of the alternative. Like for instance, while waiting for my copy of L8 to come, I read up on the new XSI foundation that was announced at NAB. It's around the same price as Lightwave, but if at a future date, I needed rigid body dynamics, I would need to upgrade to the next version which is $2,000 more, and if I needed to render hair or fur, I would have to upgrade to advanced which is $7,000 more then foundation. But with Lightwave, if I just needed to render hair, I could just get Sasquatch for $500. (XSI essentials and advanced do come with A LOT more features then just hair and rigid body dynamics which do make them a great deal, but I was portraying a scenario where a user only needed one feature, and to get that they would need to upgrade the whole shebang)
Why NT did not employed Steve Worley, and the people of Evasion, and Ogo Hikari, I mean everything would have been there !! That would be great but did you think that maybe Steve Worley wouldn't want to work for someone else? Maybe he likes owning his own business.

Exper
05-05-2004, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Cageman
That´s a good thing to do... but the SDK needs to be opened up first...no? (if NT want developers to write plugins)... Yes...
something is already there in 8...
but the massive work should be done already for 8.x!

Then NT could contact any 3rd party developer, expecially non-LW related ones, and say:
"Hey... came on... you can have a full access to LW and develope/port your plugins for our system without any restriction!"

Ade
05-05-2004, 02:42 AM
3ds foundation wa sbuilt on plugins..
but they intergrate them later on..

Instances sould be inclusive in lw as native and not plugin.

retinajoy
05-05-2004, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by tokyo drifter
I read up on the new XSI foundation that was announced at NAB. It's around the same price as Lightwave

I was tempted with XSI Foundation myself, but then it does not have the hair, rigid or soft dynamics and rendering size is limited to HD resolution which is no good for print rendering.

I really hope Newtek works quickly to get the SDK sorted, so FPrime can get updated. Am working on a project that uses Hypervoxels and it would have been nice to preview and render it in FPrime. I never liked Viper.

oDDity
05-05-2004, 03:08 AM
So to sum up, we want LW 9 to have every feature of every other 3d app put together, and to come integrated with a few thousand dollars worth of plugins. (and all for no extra cost obviously, we still want LW to remain the cheapest solution)

If that happened Avid, Discreet, Maxon, Alias, etc. may as well just give up an go take up chicken farming.

Exper
05-05-2004, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
Make the hub something other apps envy instead of LW's achielles heel. Agree...
merge Modeler/Layout in a single app...
remove the HUB...
and we'll have the best HUB's revamp (killing it!). ;)

Chris S. (Fez)
05-05-2004, 04:36 AM
I can't help but be a bit dissapointed after reading the reactions to Lightwave 8. Of course, I reserve final judgement for when it actually arrives.

Lightwave can't compete with features but it should at least offer comparable speed and stability. I don't think it does. For me, Lightwave has become a big crash-prone plugin for Fprime.

I am really looking forward to workng in wire texture frame views.

XSI 4 is amazing but so is the price you pay to access the fun stuff.

tudor
05-05-2004, 04:46 AM
I see the hub as a great resource.. That is if Newtek developes it a bit more. Who knows, a proper hub could let us plug just about anything into LW. Hub-> Photoshop.. Hub-> Maya/xsi/max etc.
Custom modelers, animation programs, texture programs etc. Kinda like Lux's vision.

fez: Ppl expected too much. They wanted everyhing that every other program had. LW is now more stable, more streamlined, and has a ton of new functions. I for one, am not dissapointed. I took time to get the new team running, but now I expect them to deliver. New blood, more ideas.

Exper
05-05-2004, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by tudor
Who knows, a proper hub could let us plug just about anything into LW. Hub-> Photoshop.. Hub-> Maya/xsi/max etc.
Custom modelers, animation programs, texture programs etc. Kinda like Lux's vision.tudor...
your point is good!

The HUB shlould provide a connection to external apps...
but it shouldn't be the heart of the system!

Merging Modeler/Layout into a single app should create only benefits:
- develope a single architecture
- no doubled code
- faster update cycle
- better workflow
- more potential users (many times I saw people don't even take LW in account: "Damn... modelling and animating into two different app?")

cresshead
05-05-2004, 05:12 AM
lw8...so far i'm very happy with it.
most things work as you'd expect and are solid in use..i need to spend more time with ik booster but i thnk that too will be a great tool in the future for me.

f prime rocks!..so f prime and lw8 is very good combination for stunning animation outputted quickly.

off to teach!..catchyou later dudes!

Hervé
05-05-2004, 06:21 AM
Hello Aegis and Tokyo Drifter, I have not said a show-stopper, off course one can always find the time to find a workaround, it takes time that's it... I can see also that we're not dealing with the same enviro., I am just doing arch_stuff, so for me all the anim tools are nothing but playing when I have time, dynamics? maybe one day I'll make a fountain... for instance, for us Grass is a problem, well not really, no real good other solution but Sasquatsch


-Instancing, very important... another H_D Instance plugin


-Better reflections in windows.... HyperSmooth (LW reflections are damn additive... and that s...ks)


-Nice shadows without the wait or grainyness of areas lights... Shadow designer2,0...


-Real matching Dof.... X_dof...


-Simple tool to match geometry and photo in LW.... guess what...? yeah Guess and error... (XSI has a nice tool for that..)....:D and the list goes on...

I am "watching" sometimes the publicity generics from 2 big french channels (TF1 & M6), these are being made with LW pretty much out of the box.... simple & efficient... but just not what I need.... dont forget something... when you're on your own, you realize competition is fierce out there.... so you're scared... so you depress, so whether you start eating, hello kitchen or so you buy plugins... (girls usually buy shoes ...!)

Cheers... and let's give some time to the time....;) ;)

Exper
05-05-2004, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
so you buy plugins... (girls usually buy shoes ...!)Hehe... :D

colkai
05-05-2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
or so you buy plugins... (girls usually buy shoes ...!)


Or if you're married, the wife buys shoes instead of you getting a new plugin! ;)

Of course, I can only say this because the wife is not in the room as I'm at work. :D

Exper
05-05-2004, 07:10 AM
colkai...
you read my thoughts...
ok...
it's easy when we talk about wives! :D

P.S. Some relax... still waiting for 8!

Hervé
05-05-2004, 08:35 AM
I have an untouchable box with a bit of money in... it says "LW plugins ONLY", yeah trust me, wait a minute, I'll show you... err...

"Darling !! Have you see my little box ??!...

answer... why should I KNOW where is your stuff...?

me... coz you got nice shiny shoes... sigh..

ahh well....;) :D :D

PS. we love them that way...:rolleyes:

jamesl
05-05-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Exper
Agree...
merge Modeler/Layout in a single app...
remove the HUB...
and we'll have the best HUB's revamp (killing it!). ;)

Couldn't disagree more.

j

Exper
05-05-2004, 11:57 AM
jamesl...


Originally posted by Exper
The HUB shlould provide a connection to external apps...
but it shouldn't be the heart of the system!

Merging Modeler/Layout into a single app should create only benefits:
- develope a single architecture
- no doubled code
- faster update cycle
- better workflow
- more potential users (many times I saw people don't even take LW in account: "Damn... modelling and animating into two different app?") Sorry...
but I think this is the way to compete against the other apps!

tjacobs
05-05-2004, 12:07 PM
As a new user I would have to disagree about merging the two apps. The menu structure would be too huge / complex for new users learning LW.

peteb
05-05-2004, 04:51 PM
Having one app definatly has it's advantages but then I really hate the fact that you then have so many tabs you don't know where to start.
That's one thing I love about Lightwave is that it feels like you go in to your workshop and make your models and then go into your studio to film them. It just feels a lot neater. Like if you've just made a complete mess on your desk and then giving it a nice clean so that you can start a new project.

Someone also mentioned that they'd like a stack system like in Max. Newtek please don't do this I personally think it sucks. Not only can it get confusing, it also uses up a lot of ram and slows your computer down.


Lightwave to me is good because of it's simplistic nature. The one thing I think that lets it down like I said earlier is inconsitency.

jamesl
05-05-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Exper
jamesl...

Sorry...
but I think this is the way to compete against the other apps!

How, by imitating them? So if LW were just a bit more like Maya, they'd get people to jump platforms? I don't think so.

j

Librarian
05-05-2004, 06:50 PM
I can`t imagine just one reason not to merge modeler and layout.
Since Newtek doesn`t want to sell Modeler and Layout seperately, there is absolutely no reason not to merge em.
Let`s get away from all these cluttered issues the hub causes. All the headaches, all the bugs.
It has only advantages.
You can keep both workflows seperated even with an integrated solution. I think that`s why so many people fear the fusion. What about having different modes in one app? Modeling Mode, Setup Mode, Animation Mode. Model something, make the bones in setup mode, animate it. Going back and tweak it in any mode without destroying former settings. Non destructive. Messiah with its modes is a good example how a well thought-out workflow should be.
Everyone would benefit from an integrated application.
Keeping seperated apps is a relict of the past an should be buried.

tokyo drifter
05-05-2004, 07:05 PM
nevermind :p

Kuzey
05-05-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Librarian
What about having different modes in one app? Modeling Mode, Setup Mode, Animation Mode.
Everyone would benefit from an integrated application.
Keeping seperated apps is a relict of the past an should be buried.

Wouldn't that just slow down the workflow to a complete stand still??

Say..you have four modelling projects open while rendering a scene and you have a couple more projects in setup mode and animation mode...how is that going to be workable??

There's no one saying that photoshop and imageready, Shockwave director and flash, your favorite web browser and mail app etc.etc should all be merged into one!!

Actually, separate apps are the way of the future;) ;)

Kuzey

Kuzey
05-05-2004, 07:18 PM
Each file that lightwave creates should have it's own 128x128 icons and file extensions.

A recent backdrop menu.

keyboard shortcuts to cycle through the tabs.

Kuzey

riki
05-05-2004, 07:18 PM
Apparently Meshpaint uses Instancing

Kuzey
05-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Mmmmm...Instancing.

So the answer is to have a copy of the same app open for each project you want to work with...Now that sounds like a bad idea to me :D

Kuzey

riki
05-05-2004, 07:37 PM
The results look good

http://www.evasion3d.com/gfx/mpaint/pics/straw.jpg

cgolchert
05-05-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Kuzey
Say..you have four modelling projects open while rendering a scene and you have a couple more projects in setup mode and animation mode...how is that going to be workable??

So you normally have four copies of modeler running along with three or four copies of layout going? How would that be workable with the current method over an integrated one? It isn't like you are activly working on more than on model at one time. maybe different objects/layers but you are not pushing points around across a head and a car and a space station all at once.

cgolchert
05-05-2004, 09:52 PM
meshpaint isn't instancing. Go back and read the website, they are copying geometry.

omeone
05-06-2004, 02:33 AM
just adding my vote to 100% agree with title of thread and first post

riki
05-06-2004, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by cgolchert
meshpaint isn't instancing. Go back and read the website, they are copying geometry.

They do use the term 'instancing' quite a lot of the website in the info section for MeshPaint. Plus show examples of their tools effecting cloned instances in a uniform way which you'd expect with instancing.

But of course it's not true instancing, you couldn't apply other tools in the same way to effect all instances.

Karmacop
05-06-2004, 03:46 AM
I was just thinking, you could probably do instancing with morph map type tech. ie you move a point on the base and the point in your morph map is moved too, only your morph map is actually 20 points in 20 different objects ... if that makes any sense ...

Exper
05-06-2004, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
How, by imitating them? So if LW were just a bit more like Maya, they'd get people to jump platforms? I don't think so.I never said LW should imitate other apps... simply saying:
1 - join the standards: you'll have many benefits!
2 - innovate them (creating new ones): you can say "Hey... look here... we really give you a better one!"

This is the "simple" process of evolution...
we're speaking about business/developing...
then I really don't want a Maya/XSI/C4D clone: this is absurd!

Librarian
05-06-2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Kuzey
Wouldn't that just slow down the workflow to a complete stand still??
No, of course not. Have you ever tried an integrated, non destructive solution such as Messiah or XSI ?
Messiah has its modes and the workflow speed is excellent.
The setup mode is a workflow improvement, not a workflow killer.
XSI is, and especially with version 4, non destructive. Go back to any state you want and tweak it without destroying something.
THAT is the way to go. THAT is what most of the users want. THAT is the way a trendsetter, and not follower, has to go in order to give us all the power a MODERN integrated application should offer.
As I already mentioned, if you do it right, you are not forced to a new modeling workflow. You will lose NOTHING(beside the crappy hub) but get EVERYTHING ;)
Why do you think all all the other applications are integrated?
Softimage and all the others would have been change that if it would speed up workflow.
I don`t want LW to become Maya or XSI, I don`t even care about what an app is like.
Just want the best tool for me to get the work done, including all benefits of todays technology. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kuzey
05-06-2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
So you normally have four copies of modeler running along with three or four copies of layout going? How would that be workable with the current method over an integrated one? It isn't like you are activly working on more than on model at one time. maybe different objects/layers but you are not pushing points around across a head and a car and a space station all at once.

Nooooo....I usually have more than one project open at the same time, Modeler already does this well, it's called the "Current Object" menu :D

What I'm saying is if the two apps were merged then modelling and rendering would be hard to do at the same time, one would slow the other down...I would think. Also, if the merged app crashes then you'll lose all your work, where as if layout crashed, modeler will still be untouched.

No, I haven't used Messiah or XSI..unless there's a mac version of XSI out there somewhere..I'll never will :p

All this talk about setup mode, animation mode etc. just removes the object a step further back from direct editing. I don't want to jump in and out of modes/ rooms just to work on objects when I can do almost anything I want from within the main widows.

Like I said if you can get those other apps (photoshop, imageready etc.) to become one then I might it's a good thing to do...until then :D :D

Kuzey

Hervé
05-06-2004, 11:02 PM
I have to admit, I am tired sometimes to go back in modeler, tweak, update layout..., no, re_modeler, tweak, update layout.... etc...

instead of a hub button, a button ala maya (dont kill me for sayingmaya !) like ANIMATE/MODEL....

indeed, XSI look like they are now way ahead of all the others... long long long road for LW to touch the toes of XSI..... but we'er getting there.... slowly, but hey, who said Rome was not built in one day !:D

Aegis
05-06-2004, 11:10 PM
Hmm... it's a far longer road for me to be able to justify shelling out $9000 on a package which won't make me a better modeller or animator - it'll just make it easier and more intuitive to do the things I'm already doing. The only reason I'd invest in Maya or Softimage is to make me more "employable" but then seeing as I've been way too busy with LightWave work over the last twelve months it's kind of a moot point...

Hervé
05-06-2004, 11:35 PM
I did not said move on to another soft... I'd say "hey NT, after going sooo slow for many years, why dont U take the fast lane for a while, others are already having diner at the gas station...:D

Aegis
05-06-2004, 11:54 PM
I could've put that last post a bit better - I didn't take it as "you should switch to Softimage" my point was really that yes, both Softimage and Maya are more sophisticated than LightWave but you pay a steep price for those features and at the end of the day any work you produce with them won't be better than what LightWave is capable of - it'll just be a more intuitive workflow. XSI Foundation and (to a lesser extent) Maya Complete are both cut down versions of the "real deal" - it won't be long before a user is looking on with frustration at the tools they don't have out-of-the-box. People argue about renderers and character tools saying that LightWave is getting left behind but maybe it's a reflection of their own skills, limitations and desire to improve - it's nice when you can just click a button an get awesome results but REAL art requires REAL work and REAL commitment - I only have to look at the stunning work done by Ripper, Lewis and all the other talented LightWavers out there to realise that I've got a long way to go (and a lot still to learn) before I exhaust the possibilities of LightWave. And then there's always 9.0 :D

Exper
05-07-2004, 04:40 AM
Just another little consideration.

You never had they feeling that Modeller and Layout are two completely different applications (different architecture) which are joined togheter by the HUB?
I bet everyone (at least who's not blind) will say: YES!

It's really funny... using an app shaped in two faces...
like Janus....
I don't remeber another one (starting from the ancient Vic20)!

Maybe this is the real reason that lead us in love with LW...
I dunno...
but maybe we're riding (and NT too) the wrong path!

Now we're using (and still waiting here) LW8...
and surerly we'll buy 8.X and then 9 and then... the story goes on!

But we cannot stop in looking out-there-around-the-world and think:
"Damn... I want a better one... not for me... but for everyone!"

If this is a rude thought...
then...
I'll stop every thoughts and I'll do it now!

Bye.

Aegis
05-07-2004, 08:18 AM
Don't any of you people asking for integration have dual monitor systems? Have you any idea how cool it is running Layout on one and Modeler on the other?? I like the fact that LightWave is two apps - if we could have realtime feedback between the two then I would never want it any other way.

cresshead
05-07-2004, 08:30 AM
Andrew slightly off topic but in your production of captain scarlet are you just using lightwave to animate or are you also using messiah or maya for animation of the characters??

also are they mostly mo cap or is there some hand keyed stuff too?


and yeah..two monitors for lw is "the way"...same with most apps really..esp photoshop and all it's floating windows..even max benifits as you can put the material browser and such open on the other monitor all the time...same if your only in lightwave modeler or layout you can have layer windos, numeric and scene edtor open on one monitor and the main app on the other...

cheers

anieves
05-07-2004, 08:32 AM
I am for integration for 2 reasons

1- I can see only advantages on doing so, everything could be animated even an extrusion without a morph etc.

2- most importantly, it makes life alot easier for ppl coming from other apps like 3dsmax, my boss gave lightwave a try for a week but couldn't get over working on 2 different apps. To him it was an after thought that was not implemented well at all.

Now he's looking into Maya and seems like he's going to have everybody switch to Maya.:(

Oh, BTW I run LW on a dual 21 in monitor set up. I like to focus on the task at hand so I have Layout or modeler in one monitor and panels arranged in another, to me far more efficient.

Cageman
05-07-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Exper

I don't remeber another one (starting from the ancient Vic20)!

I imagine that you never tried Imagine. Though it´s only one program, it had 5 different editing stages, though I barely used 3 of them. Object editor (modelling) and Stage editor (animation/rendering) and a third... Action editor (Timline editor for Stage editor). The "editors" could never be opened at the same time, and that was just a pain sometimes. And they didn´t commuincate with eachother either. If you went to Object editor to tweak the mesh, you had to reload the object in Stage editor, NO syncronization at all (or I didn´t find the button).

Newtek has a similar approach to Lightwave, but much more developed. I like the idea of doing the mesh at one place and animating it at another. Imagine is a good example of how bad it can be, while Lightwave is a good example how good it can be.

The hub has potential of being much more than it currently is. Let´s hope Newtek has some cool stuff for it later on.... :)

Karmacop
05-07-2004, 09:14 AM
Everyone that thinks integration means you automatically get animated point, extrusions, bevels etc are wrong. Sorry, just wanted to point that out.

Exper
05-07-2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by Cageman
I imagine that you never tried Imagine.

.....

Newtek has a similar approach to Lightwave, but much more developed. I like the idea of doing the mesh at one place and animating it at another. Imagine is a good example of how bad it can be, while Lightwave is a good example how good it can be.

The hub has potential of being much more than it currently is. Let´s hope Newtek has some cool stuff for it later on.... :) You misunderstood me!

I used Imagine a lot (bought directly from US)!
It was separated in modules but the underlaying architecture was the same!

On the other hand Modeller and Layout don't share the same architecture:
they was written by two different people (Stuart and Hallen, and initally were sold separately), with two different approches, with two different... goes on and on...
actually there is not much differece (an example: difference in OpenGL views)!

They are two different apps which share same part of the code (Surface Editor per example) and they are joined by the infamous HUB (which I switched off after the first install).

This is was good until 2/3 years ago... but now?

Much more developed againt Image?
After all these years?
Fortunately!