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View Full Version : hardbody dynamics and no explosion tool? what!?



durden
05-03-2004, 07:01 AM
So far I have not seen it in lw8 so if I am wrong then I am sorry and will eat my own words...but so far I cannot find anyway to explode an object in lightwave 8...and I mean on object with shared points like a vase exploding a single sphere exploding...apparently you have to use some third party script like crack it to explode the object first–I am dumbfounded, if this is true that lw has not integrated something so simple of an idea into lw 8. come on you include hardbody dynamics and no way to shatter an object???? Come on at least have a crack tool in modeller. I don't think I am alone in saying new hardbody tools lets break something?!

wacom
05-03-2004, 10:00 AM
Well, when the plugin is really good so why should NewTek buy up another one and waste up our money when this one is free? If it didn't exsist then they probably would have made it...but...

durden
05-03-2004, 10:18 AM
I think nothing is every really free...I think if the plug is so good why doesn't it work on the macintosh??? I guess if I had a pc then I might not be asking for it...so I see this as a discrepency in the program...I also think a program should not rely on freeware for a major feature that should be incorporated...sounds backwards to me. I think you can agree with that it is a basic feature no? I don't think I am asking too much–or am I?

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 11:29 AM
8 is another lackluster release. I was going to post a longer reply about the this but it became a review rather than a reply.

But exploding inside of Lightwave should of been part of the dynamics. I remember using an old Max 2.0 that had this feature....

durden
05-03-2004, 11:42 AM
thanks for the added support...I didn't think it was such a big deal to be asking for something like this...I hope this becomes a feature in future releases...post the link to your review when your done I would love to read it...cheers

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 11:49 AM
Sure will, but I don't think that many people will like it.

gjjackson
05-03-2004, 11:56 AM
Just go out and get C4-Detonate.

durden
05-03-2004, 12:03 PM
gjjackson...I don't think you get the point and I am a mac user so no go.

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by gjjackson
Just go out and get C4-Detonate.

I spent $500+ on this upgrade and something as simple as exploding an object internal should of been included. I should not have to find a 3rd party script to do the job that Newtek should have implemented.

No more upgrades for me 10 years with Newtek too long. Moveing to another company that implements features without leaving obvious ones out.

New2Lw
05-03-2004, 01:22 PM
Don't have 8 yet, still waiting, trying to be patient. I have a suggestion. Does Lightwave 8 still have the Wind FX? Why not use that to explode your objects. Set the Wind emitter/emitters to the right spot, and keyframe a wind explosion when you want your object to fly apart.

Later,
Eric

[edit] Or gravity? Wind/gravity combined with hypervoxels set up properly should make something pretty convincing...

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 01:31 PM
You can't you have to break the object up before you add the dynamics. That is the problem, small little details like that that should have made it in to this release of Lightwave did not, and therefore in my opinion I gave the name LackLuster 8.

When Lightwave goes officially Live and if they don't fix this plus the other problems. Like there is no revolutionary must have feature for Lightwave in this release than I'm moving to another app. I can't afford to waste any more money.

durden
05-03-2004, 01:34 PM
:( sadly I have been contemplating learning a new package as well...I have been waiting so long for features that are standard on other packages...I'll let it rest there–'cause this is becoming another thread...and I don't want to be to negative...I still think there is a lot to like in lw...but...and I am gonna stop there...

New2Lw
correct me if I am wrong isn't this a work around...I want a real internal cracked object...
btw...
I am getting tired of the old work around...why do I have to take 3 steps back to take one forward...

New2Lw
05-03-2004, 01:39 PM
Not sure if it's a work around. Just the first thing that popped into my head as to how I would do it.

I didn't read all of your post, just saw couldn't explode, heh. I guess there would be some rigging involved. Like having the object not cut up and then the replacment object that is cut to break apart.

I have no experience in other programs...So, I'm just going to answer a question with another one. Does other software have an "explode" button that breaks apart objects at the keyframe thay are supposed to explode, or is there rigging involved in these other packages too?

Eric

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by New2Lw
I have no experience in other programs...So, I'm just going to answer a question with another one. Does other software have an "explode" button that breaks apart objects at the keyframe thay are supposed to explode, or is there rigging involved in these other packages too?

Eric

When I was working in Max around 2000 they had a feature that would explode an object based off I'm assuming how much geometry and it splits it up randomly. For instance if it was low poly it would be less pieces. Higher geometry resulted in more pieces flying about. Combine that with Collision and wind and the explosion was pretty cool. I know they have upgraded that significantly with the Havoc Engine in the more expensive Max bundle.

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by durden
–'cause this is becoming another thread...

Did not want it to become that type of thread. I'll try to restrain myself from leaning that way. =8-)

retinajoy
05-03-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Like there is no revolutionary must have feature for Lightwave in this release than I'm moving to another app. I can't afford to waste any more money.

This is the 1st release by the new programming team and Chuck has said that Lightwave will grow and be taken further. I don't know, I am just guessing here based on hints/statements on various threads, but I think they have done a lot of under the hood development that we don't see, in preparation for bigger advances in the upcoming .2 or .5 updates. I can't comment on LW8.0 properly until it arrives, but it seems ok. Still waiting....... :)

and as for exploding objects. I have always cut them up manually as I can get more realistic looking chunks. But I have not used C4-Detonate, so I don't know if that gives a realistic outcome. Not blowing things up these days. :(

New2Lw
05-03-2004, 04:02 PM
I have always cut them up manually as I can get more realistic looking chunks.

I was thinking the same thing. Wasn't gonig to post till you posted. I was thinking that any professional in the film industry would cut up their objects, weather or not they have a quick exploding tool, to get the most realistic explosion.

Eric

WizCraker
05-03-2004, 05:00 PM
I've blown a few real thing up in my life and the tools in other packages that blows the object up does a pretty good representation for virtual explosions.

Of course you add in other stuff. But If it takes me tenth of a second to use a premade dynamics device to blow the bulk of it up. And everytime you run it the result is random.

amorano
05-03-2004, 07:34 PM
The truely sad part is Neil Nafus and I halted developing Kaboom a while back once we knew that real hard body dynamics was in LW8.

We stupidly assumed (so it seems) they would have provided a "cracking" solution other than having to manually do boolean after boolean.

Am I suprised...no.

TyVole
05-03-2004, 08:00 PM
Kaboom was very nice.

Thanks for the effort.

durden
05-03-2004, 09:10 PM
hey amorano is there no way I could convince you to let me have the script or continue development...to try out or test on the mac, I could paypal you a small fee...the version you have to download is an .exe file which I can't open on the mac. I would only need the modeller script...but I am sure things have changed in the lscript so it probably wouldn't work anyway...I thought it couldn't hurt to ask. :) Thanks for your previous efforts.

Dodgy
05-04-2004, 03:59 AM
Look for crackit here
http://cgi.f23.aaacafe.ne.jp/~fisjunk/plugin/plugin.php

That's an lscript which is free and does breakups quite well.

durden
05-04-2004, 06:29 AM
dodgy I cannot find a crack it plug-in that works on the macintosh.

retinajoy
05-04-2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by durden
dodgy I cannot find a crack it plug-in that works on the macintosh.

It's there, I saw it under OSX and MAC OS9 under the platform list box .

plus it's an LS and not a P, so I think it would work anyway on any platform.

durden
05-04-2004, 06:46 AM
retinajoy, thank you, I saw this and downloaded it and installed it and it brings up a fatal error 001...as I was saying none of the current plug-ins available work on the macintosh I have tried 3 versions of lightwave and nothing...another reason why this should be a part of lightwave.

sleiron
05-04-2004, 08:26 AM
retinajoy:

What about the 'new' programming team? Did they have a major change of people in the LW team at newtek? Any details why/what/when?

Sorry I'm just wondering because this means that it could take much longer for new features because of code handover and knowhow building on the LW code for the new team.

cheers
sleiron

durden
05-04-2004, 08:54 AM
New2Lw
have you seen maya's crack features...you should check them out

retinajoy
05-04-2004, 08:56 AM
sleiron

Some of the core developers left to start a new company. The new team imho have good credentials and I am sure that they have got very familiar with LW over the past 12 months or more. I think future updates to LW will be more frequent and more inventive.

durden
05-04-2004, 09:10 AM
I hope so I am still testing lw 8...I really like some of the new features but lacking something as simple as a crack tool this is a real glaring problem...I am going to also post some feature requests that I think should be incorporated but then I have been asking for them for years like after effects data support...simple things like a new project tab that automates project creation......sorry eki...it has to be done...total control animating objects along splines cause spline control is not so great(meaning no tearing no polygon flipping, rotation controls)...do you know how hard it is to animate along a spline with a bend angle over 60 degrees try it...see here I go creating another forum...the problem is I need to get work done and I can't even find an easy work around...in other programs it takes a split second to crack an object...etc...sorry...and I am not asking for much

amorano
05-04-2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by durden
hey amorano is there no way I could convince you to let me have the script or continue development...to try out or test on the mac, I could paypal you a small fee...the version you have to download is an .exe file which I can't open on the mac. I would only need the modeller script...but I am sure things have changed in the lscript so it probably wouldn't work anyway...I thought it couldn't hurt to ask. :) Thanks for your previous efforts.

The original scripts were done by Neil. He used Lscript and a visual basic program to get it to work correctly. I am sure if you emailed him and asked he would gladly give it up. [email protected]

The second iteration of Kaboom was a plugin, all C++. That was mostly done by me, but pending any future development I can not just give that out as of yet. Neil and I had a few different ppl working on it here and there so it is in a limbo state waiting on any SDK improvements that may come from the next point release (although at that point if nothing comes to fruition it is possible we will dump the code on the masses).

There were a few gotchas with the current SDK (including 8) that still present quite an issue for doing anything gracefully in terms of real explosions. Although I must admit I am proud that I got LUA scripts working in conjunction with single-layer/multiple object cracking way before lightweight ever had it in the feature list (at least in so far as single-layer/multiple peice objects).

Maybe our next few ideas will be the money makers :)

WizCraker
05-04-2004, 05:19 PM
Have you noticed there were no improvements in the SDK it is the same as it was in 7.5. The documentation is the same since 6.0. Very disappointed.

durden
05-04-2004, 05:25 PM
"The original scripts were done by Neil. He used Lscript and a visual basic program to get it to work correctly. I am sure if you emailed him and asked he would gladly give it up."


thanks so much–I will email him

"The second iteration of Kaboom was a plugin, all C++."

sure completely understand...I didn't realize you changed it into a plug-in rather than a script, which would make it even harder for me to use because I use mac...even if you ported it I would probably have to wait some time...kinda get used to it on the mac platform :



"There were a few gotchas with the current SDK (including 8) that still present quite an issue for doing anything gracefully in terms of real explosions. Although I must admit I am proud that I got LUA scripts working in conjunction with single-layer/multiple object cracking way before lightweight ever had it in the feature list (at least in so far as single-layer/multiple peice objects)."

wow, I didn't realize that it was that much of a problem...btw that is cool you could do it...I can't program...
thanks so much

wacom
05-04-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Have you noticed there were no improvements in the SDK it is the same as it was in 7.5. The documentation is the same since 6.0. Very disappointed.


That's odd. A few developers like LightWolf have said that there are changes to the SDK, just not as many as he'd like. Maybe the documentation we got with our "pre-shipping" release isn't up to date?

New2Lw
05-04-2004, 05:35 PM
Like everyone keeps saying, they just got a new programming team. They can't know everything in and out right away. Probably why there hasn't been any ground breaking, brand new, never before seen in any other package tools yet, because they were just picking up where the old team left off. Tweaking the tools here and adding a couple there for "workflow enhancments".

Also, I've read in several places that Newtek plans on working on the SDK right after 8 was released. So, it's next on their "to do" list.

Eric

durden
05-04-2004, 05:40 PM
New2Lw

I am not asking for anything "ground breaking", just a simple cracking tool :) cheers

New2Lw
05-04-2004, 05:50 PM
My last post wasn't talking about the crack tool. Just the Dev team in general.

Actually, I don't know how hard it would be to implement a crack tool. Lightwave just got a sew tool, so it can take weld and unweld points in layout now. Although, I don't think layout can create polys, which by the way you guys are talking would be needed to crack something apart. Lightwave would have to generate polys in the crack automatically.

BTW, could anyone point me directly to examples of the Maya or Max tool that does exactly that. "Booleans" the object, think is what Wizcracker said, and automatically creates realistic parts. I tried to look it up on Alias site but couldn't find anything. And I'd love to see the tool you guys are talking about in action. Or atleast a couple pictures of it.

As much as we are talking about it durden could have "Booleaned" his object apart a bunch of times and had it rigged up already. Send a couple bucks my way and I'll do it for you ;)

Eric

WizCraker
05-04-2004, 07:13 PM
I just uninstalled Maya, Had to free up some space. Seems like last week I just bought a bigger HD. I had plans on buying a Gig of Ram every pay check now looks like I have to budget in a new HD. Oh well, the outcome will be a better system I guess.

As for the SDK, I did notice some minor improvements, but I deal mostly with testing of software, supporting it and dabble in giving my services away to testing stuff for the software giant the big M. Maybe spending so much time with their SDK's documentation that with LW SDK docs seem amaturish. I do agree however with Newtek opening up the SDK that we might see improvement in this area.

amorano
05-04-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by New2Lw
Like everyone keeps saying, they just got a new programming team. They can't know everything in and out right away. Probably why there hasn't been any ground breaking, brand new, never before seen in any other package tools yet,


Not everyone is saying it, and I really don't think I would consider 1.5-2 years as being new anymore. If it took me that long to get up to speed with a new client's software I would never get hired. There is a learning curve, and the most I have ever been involved with personally took six solid months to get up to speed in a fairly large team of ten people. Out of those, myself and five others were brand new.

Software engineering is not only so much about reading some text on a screen as it is an exercise in extreme management. Time management is key, as is a working schema of who should be working on what parts of the code, milestones, etc etc...

Honestly, if they didn't have that in place first, the management, then I would not be suprised if it took five years for anyone to make headway. Communication, managment, coding. Basically in that order.





Also, I've read in several places that Newtek plans on working on the SDK right after 8 was released. So, it's next on their "to do" list.


You mean in addition to the bullet points in the LW8 feature list of course. Which, honestly, amounts to nothing basically.

Having read there were already going to be improvements, and having asked for them over many years now, given what was released shrouded in all mystery of "new" SDK improvements, was, well, just more of the same from NT's previous marketing.

I am holding out for the point release, and some sign they really are moving ahead in the coding department given the buzz over Fprime et. al.

durden
05-05-2004, 07:53 AM
I think your right on amorano.