PDA

View Full Version : Newteks Direction for LW - whats in future and what market is the aim towards?



Ade
04-27-2004, 09:37 PM
Im just a bit warey on the directions and future of Lightwave.
The Lightwave 8 release was in my books a very bad thing for new comers seeking a new package, bad for karma of current users and I feel it did leave many important issues undealt with.
The Architectural crowd is many here, they have made simple lists on things we could all use, i suggest we all take a look at it.

In my books FPrime saved Lightwaves *** bigtime,
and wat was it? it was a plugin that addressed
rendering speeds!!!

I have noticed a silent shift of many great wavers leaving quietly to other packages like xsi and c4d DUE to simple features that were never addressed yet so important.

It is unfair to hope that Newtek addresses what I want,
then releases somthing different and I get disappointed..
It isnt fair on NT as they work hard. I like the new Newtek, they listen more to us mac users :) i have to add.

Are we still going to get .5 updates every 1.5 years?

Id rather small incremental updates like c4d gets.
I feel thats the way c4d has caught up, and so can LW.

Would like to know from Proton etc where they see Lightwave going as these days the market is different, many other apps now have plagins/features that allow them to seep into other markets. I know u cant vouch secrets, but I feel the lines of market approach are blurred these days.

Jockomo
04-27-2004, 10:25 PM
These doom and gloom posts come up every now and then, especially with LW8 being so late, and the not so recent staff changes at NewTek.

Then Proton or someone pops in and says, Lightwave's future has never been better. I always assumed they had some big secret they were waiting to announce when lightwave launched. But now that it is shipping, and there are no new announcements, it kind of leaves me wondering what is so bright about the future of lightwave. Maybe they are saving something for 8.5 that they thought they could get in 8.0 in december? Or is it all smoke and mirrors? The lack of communication leads me to believe that it is the latter.

If NewTek is indeed scrambling to keep it afloat at this point, it is my opinion that they should just tell us whats up. I'd be alot more likely to hang in there and stick it out for a while if they just came out and said, "ya know, were trying to get back on track" and keep us informed on whats happening. But if this hype is just to keep us from looking behind the green curtain I will be more than a little dissapointed.

So this time when Proton pops in and says, "Lightwave's future has never been brighter" I hope he will explain why that is, or at least let us know that there is more going on behind the curtain than just weaving more free plugins into the program.

Librarian
04-27-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo


Then Proton or someone pops in and says, Lightwave's future has never been better.
LW itself has never been better.
Nobody knows the future because nobody knows what the competition and the customers will do.
I´m pretty sure NT isn`t happy about the price drop of the competition.
Give the customers what they want and do it fast.
As hard as it sounds, that`s the rule for a bright future.

Hervé
04-27-2004, 11:44 PM
Work cheap, fast and good.... and you're in... that is the motto today...:D

Nemoid
04-28-2004, 01:30 AM
The market is becoming more and more aggressive as time passes. the success of a 3D app, belongs more and more to great ideas and clever advancements on the developing of the software itself. a good strategy both in developing and marketing.
the time of softwares relying only on good reputation has come to an end (this is true also for softwares like Maya)
just because new small but powerful apps are there now like MB, Silo and ZBrush

Lw is a good piece of softwares, for this reason can stand among the other ones with ease, but as time passes, advancements are what is needed.

i'm not speaking about features here and there. for this reason i use the word advancements. the work to do is at the base of the software, changing its structure to make it migrate into a new environment. this will allow advantages both to users and programmers for the future.

it requires a great planning , and a clever organization, but its possible, and really not so difficult, cause parts of the code can be used.
IMO this is the work that have to be made during 8.x cycle, 8.0 being only a start.

A good and small team like Newtek can do this even better, just because a small team communicate better each other and share ideas and programming issues. for example, C4D team is about 7 guys. Vray rendering engine- 2 guys Z Brush 1 guy.

3d user
04-28-2004, 01:52 AM
Newtek should have merged Modeller and Layout. Many Lightwavers prefer it that way but I'm sure a lot of people do not.
Why aren't other 3d packages using a similar setup?
I haven't heard any "The hub is just great, I love it". I don't think I'm too far off saying that many see Hub as pain-in-the-*** but we just have to live with it.
Selling a 3d package is not about attracting new 3d users but also luring users from other 3d programs to switch to LW. The current overall 3d user base is not that huge and IMHO you just have to cut to others user base to keep afloat.

Currently Modeller is used a lot by others but Layout is not. This may lead to LW being viewed as a tool, not an all around 3d solution.

Having a faster renderer would be fine but that can be remedied by buying another computer to divvy up the rendering task.
Furthermore Fprime appears to serve many speed increase needs.

Above is of course my humble opinion.

jamesl
04-28-2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by 3d user
Newtek should have merged Modeller and Layout.

Please start a new thread, as you are obviously trying to hijack this one. "Layout should have a spellchecker" would be equally on-topic. "My mom never made me enough peanut butter and jelly sandwiches" would also qualify.

cheers,

j

colkai
04-28-2004, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Im just a bit warey on the directions and future of Lightwave.
The Lightwave 8 release was in my books a very bad thing for new comers seeking a new package, bad for karma of current users and I feel it did leave many important issues undealt with.

Whoa... Dejavu all over again.
Every time a release comes out we get a slew of these threads.

Why oh why do people feel that Newtek have any responsibility to tell users of its product the company direction and future development goals? You guys own stock or summat?
When you buy a DTP or paint package, do you get on the companies case as to what their future plans are? I think maybe no, yet paint programs are as much a part of the studio as LW.

I dunno, I never question the direction of companies I buy software/hardware from.
If the version I bought does what I want - fine. As and when I come to upgrade, I'll take a fresh look at the market, my budget and work from there. What I won't do is spend ages discussing and worrying over someone elses company.

If you are a studio - I'd be more inclined to ask yourself that question. Where are you going - what are you doing? Wasting energies on things you have no control over is a totally pointless exercise.

Carm3D
04-28-2004, 02:32 AM
You don't have to live with the hub. I sure don't. Just turn it off.

And I like them seperate.

tokyo drifter
04-28-2004, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Then Proton or someone pops in and says, Lightwave's future has never been better. I always assumed they had some big secret they were waiting to announce when lightwave launched. But now that it is shipping, and there are no new announcements, it kind of leaves me wondering what is so bright about the future of lightwave. Maybe they are saving something for 8.5 that they thought they could get in 8.0 in december? Or is it all smoke and mirrors? The lack of communication leads me to believe that it is the latter.

If NewTek is indeed scrambling to keep it afloat at this point, it is my opinion that they should just tell us whats up. I'd be alot more likely to hang in there and stick it out for a while if they just came out and said, "ya know, were trying to get back on track" and keep us informed on whats happening. But if this hype is just to keep us from looking behind the green curtain I will be more than a little dissapointed.

So this time when Proton pops in and says, "Lightwave's future has never been brighter" I hope he will explain why that is, or at least let us know that there is more going on behind the curtain than just weaving more free plugins into the program. Actually, I would like the opposite. I don't want to know what is going on. I don't want to know that an update is coming out in 6 months. That's 6 months of hype and speculation that piles up in the forums making everyone anxious and eventually hype does more bad then good when it's around too long. I only want to hear that something is going to be released when Newtek is sure of a release date.

Also, I hope that Newtek has plans to speed up their development cycle. Newtek has by far the largest gaps between product releases of any of the big 5 3d apps. I want to give Newtek more money, more frequently. Just release Lightwave updates and I'll buy them. :)

prospector
04-28-2004, 08:25 AM
Whoa... Dejavu all over again.
:D :D

I think since the LW vs Imagine battle on the Amiga:)

LWs future is (as I see it ) the same as it has always been.
And it seems to be staying on track just as it always has when fully discussed about in the 'Freedom' VHS. (which I still watch).

And that is a 3D program that will fully integrate into the VT (formorly (that's for jamesl to decipher;) ) known as the 'Toaster/Flyer). I have always looked at LW as a plugin for the Toaster (because you have to do SOMETHING with the animations you make),and haven't been dissapointed (except for those dang radius morphs:mad: )

So until Tim Jenneson is too old to even say NEWTEK, I ain't worried about LWs future.

And I LOVE THE HUB
And I LOVE THEM SEPERATED

There, now you've heard it;)

private
04-28-2004, 09:05 AM
If there isn't edges, improvements to subD texturing, an 8.1 and 8.2 release, I will be disappointed. Bugs and features from Protons Lightwave 8 videos have been left off, and the feature list changed.....If the price goes up, I'm out, as well as others I'm sure.

There is so much to love about Lightwave...especially modeler. I hope they decide to concentrate on what people use Lightwave for...mostly modeling.

jin choung
04-28-2004, 10:00 AM
ditto on the price. if it goes up, i'm moving on to similarly priced pastures.

i don't mind the 'primitivity' because of the price/performance dealy... i just want some things tightened up and official methodologies provided to deal with things like SDS/uv map distortion, bugs fixed and some of the unwieldiness stripped out and a continued emphasis on INTEROPERABILITY.

i just want newtek to define a reasonable goal and a reasonable SCOPE and address those things that they can afford to very very intelligently.

jin

p.s. and at whatever point lightwave becomes subordinate in funding, focus, purpose and publicity to toaster... ummmm, that may well signal a death knell of sorts of lw as a mainstream 3d app.

Ade
04-28-2004, 10:03 AM
Exactly...

I dont wanna wait and wait for the next update to lightwave and all it always is a bug fix update.

I wish newtek created a trend where .2's become the modeler updates and .5's become the rendering updates..

Mikeface
04-28-2004, 10:55 AM
Admittedly I've only been around since LW v7, but I confess that I don't understand the issues that people are raising here. If you want Newtek to upgrade a specific area of the software, put in a change request and you may, or may not, be disappointed. That the way it works everywhere.

But since when should users dictate the future of a particular product? This constant whining seems to be the downside of the great community that Lightwave users enjoy.

When it comes down to it, if you have real ability in the CG field then it shouldn't matter which of the higher end packages you use. There's always going to be a process of massaging the software to get it to do what you want.

Learn the art, not the software. Minor inconveniences like having the Modeller and Layout separate are just that - minor. Does anyone really lose sleep over something like that??

:confused:

Jockomo
04-28-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Librarian
LW itself has never been better.

Yea, and I am older than I have ever been. That doesn't mean I am going to get alot older faster than I ever have.

That is exactly my point, I hope he is not saying that as some marketing twist on words. Because in the context that he is saying it, I take it to mean; the lightwave programmers are better coders than the last guys, or we have more people working on lightwave than ever before or we are putting more resources into creating lightwave than any of our other products.

Unfortunately it looks to me like the company is concentrating on VT3 or it's next release, at the expense of lightwave. That doesn't look so bright to me.



Originally posted by Mikeface

But since when should users dictate the future of a particular product?
You've got to be kidding right? Customers always dictate what companies put in their products. They don't just randomly put in stuff they think is cool. Any product developer that doesn't listen to their customers will quickly fail.



Originally posted by Mikeface

Learn the art, not the software.

Keeping up with the changes in one piece of software is plenty of work, not to mention the cost of upgrades. It just doesn't make sense for me to have 3 or 4 3d packages sitting around and have to pay for upgrades on all of em, and spend all of my time learning everything new that comes out. Just doing the work takes up plenty enough of my time. So the option is one package or another, but not all at once.

Chazz
04-28-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
These doom and gloom posts come up every now and then, especially with LW8 being so late, and the not so recent staff changes at NewTek.

Then Proton or someone pops in and says, Lightwave's future has never been better.
Well, that's their job. Proton and Chuck work in marketing and communications. Believe me, I know. I worked as an artist in the corporate communications department of a large company for years. An elevator shaft could collapse and my VP could put a positive spin on it. You have to make up your own mind...if Newtek and Lightwave don't meet your needs and expectations, then you should take a long look at the other software out there.

Personally, I think it might be wiser to write them a letter or email with your grievances...your voice might get lost in the flame wars that usually erupt from these threads.

WizCraker
04-28-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Chazz
Personally, I think it might be wiser to write them a letter or email with your grievances...your voice might get lost in the flame wars that usually erupt from these threads.

That sounds like a good idea.

colkai
04-28-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Mikeface
This constant whining seems to be the downside of the great community that Lightwave users enjoy.

No argument there ;)


Minor inconveniences like having the Modeller and Layout separate are just that - minor. Does anyone really lose sleep over something like that??


Heh - you'd think so judging from the many mutterings :p
Seriously, this has gone on for a long time now, some people just don't seem to feel as if their day is complete without a complaint.

It's a strange thing, but people think Newtek should jump at their every whim, yet when it comes to other packages like say Photoshop, it's like "well Adobe are so big" so everyone rolls over and plays dead.

You can hide behind the customer controls the product, but hey, how many companies actually give a damn?

"Here's the product, buy it or don't but this is what ya get and this is what it costs."

Guess it says something about Newtek that people feel they have the right to control the company direction. A downside to being accessible I guess! :D

prospector
04-28-2004, 02:51 PM
You can hide behind the customer controls the product, but hey, how many companies actually give a damn?

I'm gonna test this theory.

I am writing e-mail to Adobe Phototshop Div, and as I am part of their customer base, they should listen to me.

So here is the message I am sending;

Dear Adobe;

Because there are so many 2D paint programs out there, like Paint Shop Pro, Dog Waffle and such, I think that Photoshop should turn it's complete attention to and redesign the program so that it fully complies with Lightwave and will *only* paint 3D on Lightwave models exclusivly. And as one of the customer user base, we should also know where Photoshop will be in 10 years.

As these are not so hard to do, I eagerly await your answer in the affermitive.
Thank you



Yes Yes, I DO believe a company SHOULD do as the user base wants.

colkai
04-28-2004, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't go holding your breath on that one.
Might as well ask Bill Gates to pop over and sort out ya computer. :p

Ahh - wot do I care - going to play wiv LW8! :D

Jockomo
04-28-2004, 03:03 PM
Amazing, who'd a thought that a lightwave user in our very own forums represented the ENTIRE user base of Adobe Photoshop.

Cageman
04-28-2004, 03:15 PM
LOL! That was a good one Prospector! :)

Lightwaves future? Well.. as some of you may have noticed, there are plenty of featured movies that have had Lightwave in their "making of". This means that LW is filling a gap somewhere, and will probably continue to do that.

The market/target will probably be: "A complete 3D-solution for everyone, at a knockdown price/performance ratio".... or something like that?

Ohh... and the SDK will probably open up, just so that developers such as Worley can make plugins like FPrime to access everything that the native renderer can. Maybe this will happen after LW8 is released?

Cageman
04-28-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Amazing, who'd a thought that a lightwave user in our very own forums represented the ENTIRE user base of Adobe Photoshop.

And there seems to be some Lightwave users that represents the entire userbase of Lightwave. ;)

Jockomo
04-28-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Cageman
And there seems to be some Lightwave users that represents the entire userbase of Lightwave. ;)

If NewTek didn't care what their customers thought, why would they make an entire forum for feature requests?

That's customers, with an s on the end, which means all of the people who buy their products, not just one person. For those of you who have trouble with syntax.

WilliamVaughan
04-28-2004, 03:36 PM
LightWave's future is bright

LightWave has never been better...

did I get them all for you guys

:)

Jockomo
04-28-2004, 03:42 PM
No, there is that part about what brings you to that conclusion.

Is the programming team better than before?

Is NewTek putting more effort into improving lightwave than before?

Are there more people working on lightwave than before?

Is the core code being redeveloped?

Is that just some marketing spin, or do you have specific reasons to say that?

sigh... I give up.

colkai
04-28-2004, 03:45 PM
Please..please do :rolleyes:

Jockomo
04-28-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by colkai
Please..please do :rolleyes:

Could you show me to my hole so I could stick my head in it like everyone else please?

Elemental233
04-28-2004, 04:03 PM
I think Newtek needs to change there light bulb.

WizCraker
04-28-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
No, there is that part about what brings you to that conclusion.

Is the programming team better than before?

Is NewTek putting more effort into improving lightwave than before?

Are there more people working on lightwave than before?

Is the core code being redeveloped?

Is that just some marketing spin, or do you have specific reasons to say that?

sigh... I give up.

Will we actually see updates quicker than 3 years?

Maybe like 6 months or 1 Year.

How about adopting the Extreme Programming practices, maybe that will help with development.

WizCraker
04-28-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Elemental233
I think Newtek needs to change there light bulb.

Thats the best thing I've heard or read all day.

DarkLight
04-28-2004, 04:45 PM
Minor inconveniences like having the Modeller and Layout separate are just that - minor. Does anyone really lose sleep over something like that??

Lightwave has always been like this. I don't understand why poeple suddenly can't live without intergration. If they hate the workflow of having 2 seperate apps that much, why are they using Lightwave anyway?

Phil
04-28-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Will we actually see updates quicker than 3 years?

Maybe like 6 months or 1 Year.

How about adopting the Extreme Programming practices, maybe that will help with development.

Chuck has stated previously that they were adopting the VT development approach for LW. They have apparently noticed that the gap between substantial updates hasn't been doing them any favours of late.

What concerns me more is that there are significant bugs in 8.0 that really prevent my upgrading until they are fixed. Until the multithreaded rendering issues are resolved along with some other rendering problems, I really cannot justify the upgrade. The new features are less significant compared to these show-stopping nasties. I reported them and had them confirmed by NT in 7.5c in late 2003 so it's disappointing to have no patch for 7.5 and for them to be present in 8.0. Hopefully, though, both will appear in due course along with a linux LWSN8.0 (and fixed SDK + third party support).

In the meantime, I continue to take an active interest in competing packages and the plight or delight of the LW users on Mac OSX as these will be significant factors in my future purchasing decisions.

NewTek have lost ground on their rivals in some areas, but they know what they need to do as a commercial entity in order for them to remain viable and have a growing user base for their products. With VT and LW being developed by different teams, it isn't a case of all or nothing for LW, either. They know that in the compressed market for DCC software, they actually have to earn the upgrade fee rather than take it for granted. I feel confident that this has really focussed attention and the 8.x line will be quite exciting for those along for the ride.

policarpo
04-28-2004, 05:28 PM
The timeline between now and Siggraph will be a very important one.

I think LW8 is a step in the right direction.

I'm not 100% thrilled with LW8, but maybe that's just me, because these past several months I've been getting accustomed to the workflow in Cinema4D and kind of like the logical flow of most things.

Modeling is still tops in LW for straight polygonal modeling, but with Silo3D around the corner for OSX, and a C4D9 update looming (and they're stellar OSX support), the only thing keeping me glued is fPrime...

But some recent tests are just showing that fPrime is a little faster than C4D when it comes to rendering dense scenes (fPrime just makes LW's renderer feel like a dinosaur).

Hopefully NT will give Worley free reign to fix what is a much needed overhaul in the current state of things.

I'd like to see the .PSD exporter actually fixed in the next couple point releases and maybe open it up some more to include GI passes and such...but I won't hold my breath, I'll just use a system that seems tuned to Multipass Rendering artists like myself.

Cheers.

robewil
04-28-2004, 05:59 PM
You all may want to look at the comments that Philip Nelson and Andrew Cross wrote in this thread. Other NAB News (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21753) It's concerning the VT but I believe that many of the comments posted by Philip and Andrew apply here as well.

Wickster
04-28-2004, 06:53 PM
hmmm...8.5? from what i've heard last year from siggraph down here in san diego, they were trying to include something in LW8 but decided not to because it would push back the release date very far. (though in my guess is tht thats what happened why LW is 8...ahem still waiting for mine) anyway, i also hear talk of maybe 8.3 or something just to get this feature out but i don't remember what it was. i'm pretty sure i hear that the people who developed the plugin "ortho" err something now works for NT, hence the bone tools feature in layout. i have no doubt on LW future. its not what the software can do better than the other, but what you can do better using that software...
that'll be a $1 please... for my opinion.:)

Ade
04-28-2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by proton
LightWave's future is bright

LightWave has never been better...

did I get them all for you guys

:)

We're doomed, i could detect a hint of sarcasm in that.

WizCraker
04-28-2004, 08:33 PM
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside hearing canned responses like that.

tokyo drifter
04-28-2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Ade
We're doomed, i could detect a hint of sarcasm in that. Do you remember that episode of the Simpsons when Professor Frink invents a Sarcasm Detector and Comic Book guy says, "Ohh, now THAT's a useful invention" and the Sarcasm Detector readings go off the chart and explodes? That's the first thing that came to my mind while reading this thread.:)

WilliamVaughan
04-29-2004, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo


Is that just some marketing spin, or do you have specific reasons to say that?

sigh... I give up.


Any one that knows me knows that marketing "spin" is not something I do....I've seen amazing things happen in teh hshort amount of time the new team has been on board....we got features that we have been asking for since 5.5 like a dope sheet, unlimited undos, features found in teh dope track, and much more.

I also know that you will see new improvements and features very soon.

I believe that LightWave Eight was the rebirth of LightWave and not the death of LightWave. I'm very excited about LightWave and the future....if my posts seemed canned so be it...I've always posted on these boards speaking my mind and my posts havent changed from before I was a NewTek employee......of course people tend to read things diffrently now that I am.....


Enjoy!

colkai
04-29-2004, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by proton
....if my posts seemed canned so be it...I've always posted on these boards speaking my mind and my posts havent changed from before I was a NewTek employee......of course people tend to read things diffrently now that I am.....


Damned if you do damned if you don't eh Proton? ;)
Wait a minute - didn't we go through all this last time around? :p

Like I said, Dejavu - all over again. :D

Verlon
04-29-2004, 03:47 AM
I don't like the hub.
I wish modeller and Layout were integrated.
I voted for the other guy.

I still use Lightwave.
I pre-ordered 8 knowing there is still a hub.
I haven't left the country.

Yes, I am a little grouchy about the delay in 8, but I damn sure am not running around screaming that skytracer is falling.

Newtek wants to make a product that appeals to all it users, not just the Mac guys, the architectual types, or character animators. They try to introduce features we can all use, even on Tuesdays.

Of course, they have to deal with what is feasible. I am sure they would love nothing more than to give us ALL the features, a 100% customizable interface that has zero bugs, and an unlimited supply of hot wings for a dollar less than you would pay for Maya, but it just doesn't work that way.

Every new feature is potential for new bugs. Every change is a possiblity it won't work with a Mac, or your favorite plugin.

As for their plan for the future: it is quite simple. They want to release and sell more copies of Lightwave. Happy? No? You want to know exactly what they are planning? I am sure Discreet, XSI, Cinema 4D, Messiah, and Luxology would all love to know this as well. If you HAVE to know, send them your resume. Other than that, Lightwave must be doing all right.

I know they have a lot of pre-roders to ship......

colkai
04-29-2004, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Verlon
As for their plan for the future: it is quite simple. They want to release and sell more copies of Lightwave. Happy? No? You want to know exactly what they are planning? I am sure Discreet, XSI, Cinema 4D, Messiah, and Luxology would all love to know this as well. If you HAVE to know, send them your resume. Other than that, Lightwave must be doing all right.
I know they have a lot of pre-roders to ship......

ROFL! :D
Good one - well put!

Whilst I may sometimes come across as a bit of a fanboy, that doesn't mean I don't think there are areas in which LW is lacking in what I want from it. I also would dearly love some features which have not yet been added to it, some of which, yes, are even available in freeware programs.

However, I do not, nor will I ever, waste time over "what if?" situations. I have what I have, it does what it does, seems quite good enough for some of the major effects houses so for sure, it'll do for me ta muchly! :D

Does this mean I won't push for enhancements, of course not, but I ain't that interested in Newteks internal decisions and policies either. :p

jin choung
04-29-2004, 03:56 AM
sorry, i just can't help it, count this as my turrett's outburst of the day:

he said, "or something that would please the Mac guys-"

i say, "you mean... FUNCTIONAL?"

mercy... i made myself laugh long and hard over that one... not even really true but...

whoooo....

jin

colkai
04-29-2004, 04:15 AM
So did you spray coffee everywhere or waht - these details are important ya know ;)

3d user
04-29-2004, 04:24 AM
I got some flak for posting I would have liked Layout and Modeller merged.
My point was that IMHO many would switch to LW if this "feature" would be inplemented. I've talked with users of [I ain't going to say it] -3d prog. Many hate to admit that LW modeller is tops and so they use only LW's modeller. IMHO Layout is also great. So why aren't all switching to LW? What do you guys think is the main reason? Is the main reason LW renderer? Nope. Is Layout somehow limited? Nope.
In my HUMBLE opinion the non-integration is HURTING LightWave at least sales-wise.

robewil
04-29-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by 3d user
I got some flak for posting I would have liked Layout and Modeller merged.
My point was that IMHO many would switch to LW if this "feature" would be inplemented. I've talked with users of [I ain't going to say it] -3d prog. Many hate to admit that LW modeller is tops and so they use only LW's modeller. IMHO Layout is also great. So why aren't all switching to LW? What do you guys think is the main reason? Is the main reason LW renderer? Nope. Is Layout somehow limited? Nope.
In my HUMBLE opinion the non-integration is HURTING LightWave at least sales-wise. I have nothing to back this statement up with but I bet if Layout and Modeler were one program, your friends would find other reasons not to use Lightwave. The separate program thing just happens to be convenient.

Okay, enough of the separated/all-in-one debate. Start another thread if you feel you must because it's off-topic here.

As far as the future, keep in mind that Newtek has proved itself to be one hell of a resilient company. They have been around since 1986! Yes, that's right. How many other companies of their modest size can you say that about? You don't survive the tumultuous changes the industry has gone through over the past 18 years without being able to improvise, overcome, and adapt.

Chuck
04-29-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Unfortunately it looks to me like the company is concentrating on VT3 or it's next release, at the expense of lightwave. That doesn't look so bright to me.

We have two separate development teams for the video side and the 3D side. Each team concentrates fully on its respective projects, of course, but the notion that the company is some unit entity that can only concentrate on one or the other of its development lines at a time is simply incorrect.

Jockomo
04-29-2004, 12:06 PM
Wow, ya know there was just a post here by lee explaining the newtekpro situation, and it just got deleted.

Something to hide chuck? Perhaps it would be more prudent to just give an explaination on the matter than to censor stuff.

amazing.

retinajoy
04-29-2004, 12:07 PM
Yep Stranathans posts was deleted.

Edit.

The problem is, those of us who managed to read Lee's message have now plenty of questions about Newtek business ethics if what was alledged was true. But maybe it was not true. Maybe it was out of bitterness, but who knows.

robewil
04-29-2004, 12:09 PM
yes, Lee posted his revelation in several threads and now they are all gone.

WizCraker
04-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan
NewTek lied to me, lied to everyone. There's a lot more, too, obviously - but this NewTekPro example is a clear one, and it's not in dispute factually.

So start a web page about your encounters to tell all.


It does not surprise me that someone such as Lee would say something like the above. Former employees, users, freelancers, customers, etc... all ways find a way to point fingers at a company about how bad they are.

For example half the people [might be a little off] who live in Austin Texas probably have worked for Dell and the majority of them will say something bad about them. Why, you ask? Because it is human nature to tell all your problems and then try to justify by telling something about the company in question true or not.

Jockomo
04-29-2004, 12:17 PM
Weather or not Lee has a bone to pick with NewTek doesn't change the fact that lots of people got burned by NewTekPro... The whois search for newtekpro.com shows the owner as NewTek.

NewTek has not offered a reasonable excuse as to why they are affiliated with this magazine, still link to it on their website and why people have not gotten their money back. (if I am wrong, sorry, but show us the link)

Seems to me they owe an explaination.




Domain name: NEWTEKPRO.COM

Administrative Contact:
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
+1.2103708267
Fax: +1.2103708266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US

Billing Contact:
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
+1.2103708267
Fax: +1.2103708266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US

Technical Contact:
NewTek
Ricky Hortman ([email protected])
+1.2103708267
Fax: +1.2103708266
8200 IH 10 West
Suite 900
San Antonio, TX 78230
US

Chuck
04-29-2004, 12:23 PM
Actually I posted messages here and at CGTalk quite some time back from Jim Plant that NewTek would be addressing the issues of folks who had subscribed to NewTekPro. NewTek is working with the publishers to resolve matters and it will be NewTek that subscribers will hear from as to how redress will be offered.

colkai
04-29-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by retinajoy
The problem is, those of us who managed to read Lee's message have now plenty of questions about Newtek business ethics if what was alledged was true. But maybe it was not true. Maybe it was out of bitterness, but who knows.

You also have to recall that it wouldn't be the first time Lee has took a swipe at Newtek. Happened a while back and he himself addmited it wasn't cool.
I think he may be a bit like me, quick to temper and with a powerful one to boot.
Sometimes, ya just let loose with both barrels and the hell with the consequences.

Jockomo:
It's Newteks forums, run by the folks at Newtek, about Newtek products, I think they are pretty much entitled to censor what they choose. Remember, it isn't "free speech" here, any comments deemed slanderous etc.. are theirs to control.

retinajoy
04-29-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by colkai
You also have to recall that it wouldn't be the first time Lee has took a swipe at Newtek. Happened a while back and he himself addmited it wasn't cool.


Yep, and he is probably under a lot of pressure and worries. Hope things sort out for him.

and now to topic... I quite like Modeller and Layout being separate, but maybe because I am used to it. I think I said elsewhere, that imho LW8 is going in the right direction judging from Protons videos and lately HowardMs dynamic tests ;)

When it arrives, I guess I will have a better informed opinion in a couple of months after using it in my work. Amazing how some peoples opinions on LW8 are negative and they have not even used it yet.

wacom
04-29-2004, 01:40 PM
Look, you just can't always trust a marketing team. Saying they always lie is a bit much, but they do stretch the truth sometimes.

What do I expect out of V8- what it looks like- NewTek trying to get back on track so they can focus and gain money to make some bigger changes in v9. I expect 8.x to address some major issues, and to have a few pressing features added (sub pixel dispacement, SDS UV fixed) as these aren't just things that are "nice" to have.

The SDK is being worked on- if they do it right it will buy them some major time. There is a killing to be made by third party companies to fill the holes in LW as it stands- that will get the ship floating again as we wait for the full work over LW needs. I personally don't see a problem with plug-ins if they can get the SDK working even better...

While it is sad, I don't care about Lee's soap opera when it comes to this topic. I personally hate the company I work for now- but I'm not going to contact our customers and tell them about it. At best they'd just think I'm pathetic.

colkai
04-29-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by retinajoy
Amazing how some peoples opinions on LW8 are negative and they have not even used it yet.
Aww ya don't want a little thing like not knowing what you're on about stopping you from having a good rant.
:p

Hey, at least in the UK we always have the weather to moan about! ;) Looks like it's gonna be another typical bank holiday. Sheesh, I don't know, so much for summer etc..etc... :D

jamesl
04-29-2004, 04:32 PM
OK... back on topic. I'm not wearing pants.

j

tokyo drifter
04-29-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Actually I posted messages here and at CGTalk quite some time back from Jim Plant that NewTek would be addressing the issues of folks who had subscribed to NewTekPro. NewTek is working with the publishers to resolve matters and it will be NewTek that subscribers will hear from as to how redress will be offered. So... quite some time back... you said that Newtek would be addressing the issue? What are you guys waiting for? More angry emails, phone calls, forum threads? Guys with pitchforks and torches heading towards the Newtek building? Luckily I didn't buy this non-existant magazine, but I've read a lot of posts from many angry people that did subscribe.

WizCraker
04-29-2004, 04:45 PM
I think the SDK will be the biggest improvement that Lightwave will have when it opens up more for 3rd party developers to the internal core features.

And I like the modeler and layout not being integrated.

Beamtracer
04-29-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Stranahan
NewTek lied to me, lied to everyone. There's a lot more, too, obviously - but this NewTekPro example is a clear one, and it's not in dispute factually. I just dropped into this thread. Have I missed something? What is this all about?

Danny603
04-29-2004, 09:34 PM
Beamtracer, you don't know? After your threads as "Wanker" on CGTalk just got deleted?

Beamtracer
04-29-2004, 09:51 PM
???? I've got no idea at all what this is about.

jin choung
04-29-2004, 10:05 PM
i'm completely with tokyo drifter....

the first thing that flashed in front of my eyes is 'quite some time back'!

seriously... what exactly ARE you guys waiting for?!

it's this kind of behavior that makes many of us think that the stink has to reach a "CRITICAL MASS" before something gets addressed....

probably something so simple as giving out TIM BUCKS in the amount of the subscription fee would be good enough for most and entirely within your control.

come on fellas... some show of good faith in regards to this matter would cost little and alleviate much.

jin

mlinde
04-29-2004, 10:08 PM
:D I just used up my last TimBucks
:( I paid Newtek Pro money
:D I could use some more TimBucks for 9.0

:eek: I'd like to get my copy of 8.0 before that though

Oops, back on topic. I want to see some optimization, and not just performance, but utility as well. If there are 5 tools that do similar things, or pieces of the same thing, those 5 tools should be one tool, with 5 options. Imagine the reduction in menu size with that little tidbit!

robewil
04-29-2004, 10:17 PM
...Nevermind

jin choung
04-29-2004, 10:34 PM
hey mlinde,

couldn't agree more... right now, DISPLACEMENT mapping is a total poochscrew... needs a total teardown, get rid of all the other displacement mapping plugins (normal displacement, bump displacement, etc) and just have one that works properly.

i keep saying there's a lot of stuff that can be done without expenditure of NASA scale funds... merely some interest and cogent thought.

getting rid of CONSTRUCTION and DETAIL as insensible tabs in modeler would be another such garage budget improvement.

jin

colkai
04-30-2004, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
OK... back on topic. I'm not wearing pants.

j
Ok dude -waaay too much information :eek:

Yog
04-30-2004, 07:15 AM
I would suspect that one of the reasons that there are so many grumblings and intense interest in the future direction of LW is that the direction the program has been heading in the last few years is very different from the direction it was taking in the past.

When I jumped on board the LW bandwagon with LW5.0, it was without doubt the best polygon/Sub-D modeller and renderer available in anything like my price range.
Unfortunately due to practically no development, the tools I rely on most have not progressed, and in a very real sense have fallen far behind competing products.

I suspect there are many like me that predominantly model and render stills, and for whom including GI rendering is becoming the industry norm, who are now wondering that because Newtek have not upgraded these areas in the last several years, are they likely to upgrade them in the near future ?

So many times we have heard at the time of the last three/four upgrades that "modelling and rendering aren't the main focus of this release, but they will be looked at in future releases", that when we hear it now we take it with a pinch of salt (read - credability gap).

And please do not even list all the "NEW" modelling features of LW8. For dedicated modellers like myself the chances are that they (like myself) already had them for free, or at most a very reasonable cost. In all honesty, if it wasn't for the fact that I was interested in DXF+, there is no chance I would have upgraded to LW8. This is the first upgrade I have thought this about, I hope it is the last upgrade feal this way about, but history is not on my side.

colkai
04-30-2004, 07:46 AM
I admit, there seems to be a fair number of people moving from LW to C4D (or XSI now that there is a cheaper version).

Seems a lot of folks are jaded about Newtek and the direction of LW and I can repsect them for simply buying another package.
What I don't get is why some feel the need to come here and whinge constantly about NT & LW.
It's a very strange thing, why waste so much energy simply because it no longer suits your purpose.

If you buy a 3 seater sofa, do you constantly moan to the supplier of your previous 2 seater simply because it no longer suits your needs? Weird.
As I've said previously, I may be overly optimistic, (unusual for me that), but I do think LW has interesting times ahead. And no, I have nothing to base that on except my own feelings.

Yog
04-30-2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by colkai
I admit, there seems to be a fair number of people moving from LW to C4D (or XSI now that there is a cheaper version).

Seems a lot of folks are jaded about Newtek and the direction of LW and I can repsect them for simply buying another package.
What I don't get is why some feel the need to come here and whinge constantly about NT & LW.
It's a very strange thing, why waste so much energy simply because it no longer suits your purpose.


Possibly because as well as having a lot of time and money invested in LW (training material, practice, upgrades), a lot of us still have an (don't laugh) emotional attachment to LW. For many of use it was the cost efective (at the time) program that gave us our proffessional break into the industry.

It's a bit like having a friend with a gambling problem. You can see he's heading in a direction that you believe will do him harm in the long run. You keep on at him, hoping he'll turn himself around, he say's hell sort himself out, just not today, probably tomorrow.
Frustration all around. Sooner or later you have to consider walking away and hope they sort themselves out.

policarpo
04-30-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by colkai
I admit, there seems to be a fair number of people moving from LW to C4D (or XSI now that there is a cheaper version).

Seems a lot of folks are jaded about Newtek and the direction of LW and I can repsect them for simply buying another package.
What I don't get is why some feel the need to come here and whinge constantly about NT & LW.
It's a very strange thing, why waste so much energy simply because it no longer suits your purpose.


I think it's because of the intellectual investment one has made in a product. Software tools of this nature represent tools that one bases their livelihood on.

No one wants to see their app of choice flounder, but if it does, one has to move on until it stops floundering, or at least shows that it is aware of where the industry is moving as a whole.

R&D is critical for a company more so than ever these days. Project budgets are tight and turn around times are insane, and the companies that listen to the workflow needs of their power users are the ones who will push through the next few years as leaders.

Seeing software architecture systems that work and are built as extensible systems are the ones that will be able to take the greatest leaps. As artists we have to be aware of this so that we don't find ourselves sitting on outdated technology that keeps us from surpassing our competitors.

As the tools evolve they will become easier to use, but they will be built on systems that can mature quickly and adapt to changing technologies.

The present and future of software is about technologies which aid us in realizing our visions faster.

Can anyone be faulted for realizing this when solutions are as apparent as they are these days?

jin choung
04-30-2004, 09:24 AM
and yog's original point is pretty much why i personally feel that there seems to be more 'negativity' these days than there used to be:

what's GOOD about lw is pretty much the same as it's always been! sure, there are really great things about lw... even to this day... genuinely freakin' GREAT! but we've already shot our wad on those kudos. we've emptied the reservoir. dry. oh so very dry.

but flaws either have not been properly addressed yet (resulting in insufferable and constant bitching) or new ones are created (fresh bitching).

and the horse ain't dead yet so we keep on beatin'.

YAH! YAH!

and nobody here has MOVED ON and remains to *****! sure, i personally don't have anything better to do but most of us do.... we're not bitching just to ***** in lw forums while we've stopped using it completely and have moved on to xsi, c4d, maya what have you.

if you're sane and your bitching, it's because you use lw, you like lw, you want to be able to continue to use and like it.

jin

p.s. YAH!

theo
04-30-2004, 09:24 AM
And please do not even list all the "NEW" modelling features of LW8. For dedicated modellers like myself the chances are that they (like myself) already had them for free, or at most a very reasonable cost.

This I totally agree with. I have had most of the "NEW" tools already so in this sense I have not been too impressed with the overall Modeller upgrade. My main hope in upgrading was that the dynamics and particle effects system would be improved dramatically within Layout without having to use as many plugs.

It is appearing that there will not be a major upgrade in the dynamics and particles side but I will withhold final judgement until I run it through my own testing procedures.

jin choung
04-30-2004, 09:30 AM
actually,

while IKB certainly turned out to be a somewhat specialized tool that won't end up actually taking the place of ik's native ik, the dynamics do indeed seem to be quite good now.

the hard body stuff that i've seen really make me feel that THAT is one promise that was delivered as it should have been.... it works, it's pretty fast and setup seems pretty simple (!!! i know!).

as for particles... what wouldja like? personally, i think particles have been pretty good for a while (except for one thing that i thought they were missing except it turns out i was wrong and it's had it all along).

as for modeler... man, that's been my ***** ever since i heard of 8... but considering that they threw in some plugins that weren't free like rounder and uveditpro (and more than anything, considering what their developer situation was) i've been mollified... enough at least to give em a chance to see how the future shakes out.

jin

theo
04-30-2004, 10:11 AM
Hey Jin.

As far as an update of the particles system goes- They are great but I would like to see a more powerful algorithm employed for liquid effects. I can create some amazing liquids but the system is somewhat limiting in scope. The thing is if you can simulate liquids to somewhat realistic sense without the mercury and blob-like consistency inherent to Light Wave's liquid-based PFX then the potential to create better gas and particle clouds is enhanced as well.

Obviously blob-meshing is the foundation to any liquid FX but I still think the system can be enhanced.

hrgiger
04-30-2004, 10:59 AM
You know I was at DeVry Library last night where I go to school and I happened upon a whole book on NURBS. Then I saw one on the physics and math behind fluids. I should have picked them up and sent them to Newtek.;)

jin choung
04-30-2004, 11:07 AM
wow...

yah, as for fluid dynamics... ummm, i won't argue that it's not desirable... but there's plenty PLENTY of less exotic things that they could address before ever getting the saavy to tackle that.

feel free to disagree, but in my book, that's more advanced than i feel i have a right to expect from any base cgi package at this point. if this is a purview of paid plugins... i think that's about right.

jin

theo
04-30-2004, 12:04 PM
Well Jin I am going to disagree with your entire point.

If you aren't more than a casual user of PFX sims then this will be your obvious position. And understandably so.

I don't consider advanced liquid and gas sims to be exotic as you say. In some of the projects I work on an expanded PFX sim system would be an extremely useful and time-saviing asset. I would go as far to say that the LW's existing PFX system ain't broke it just needs a shot in the arm with the addition of more advanced algorithms for more realistic liquid simulations.

It kind of depends on what your needs are. If you are into games advanced liguid and gas sims are not going to be be your forte'.

I am not really impressed with RealFlow even though it is more powerful to an certain extent. If Newtek came up with their own separate expansion plug I would buy it today just to keep the money in the family as an incentive for further development in this area.

I'll be honest with you a lot of the large SP FX studios probably would not mind upgrade as well. Hypervoxel fire is pretty cool but a more advanced algorithm would probably help create some amazing liquid type flame effects as well.

Ah well... 'nuf said.

Hervé
04-30-2004, 12:20 PM
for flames, have you checked this Theo...?

www.polas.net

Pretty nice one there, it even adresses some gliches of Hyper voxel... and the gas stuff is realistic...;)

Hervé
04-30-2004, 12:28 PM
At the same site , there is also a demo he needs betatesters..btw) for a new plugin called Smartmorph... non linear morphs... check the videos... priceless...:D

jin choung
04-30-2004, 12:50 PM
hey theo,

that's cool... you needs what ya needs....

actually, but i was gonna mention realflow... if not that, is there another model that newtek could look toward? i know ZERO about advanced fluid simulations and i don't even pay much attention to such bullet points when it comes up in product specs.

xsi? maya (i use maya regularly so i'd be surprised [but not that surprised] if maya had a superlative one)? houdini?

thanks.

jin

theo
04-30-2004, 12:54 PM
Thank you Herve for the info. I did have some knowledge of these plugs and I think Pawel is a remarkable programmer. I passed them over because I can create some great flames already using HyperVoxels- I was speaking of the more surreal liquid type special effects flames earlier, a good example of what I am talking about is the BAMPH! NightCrawler smoke effect used in X2.

I did not know though that he was looking for Beta-testers this I will look into right away.

Jockomo
04-30-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by colkai
Seems a lot of folks are jaded about Newtek and the direction of LW and I can repsect them for simply buying another package.
What I don't get is why some feel the need to come here and whinge constantly about NT & LW.
It's a very strange thing, why waste so much energy simply because it no longer suits your purpose.

When people stop spending so much energy whining about lightwave, NewTek should get worried... very worried.

I know the reason I do it is because I love lightwave and as Poli said I have a huge intellectual investment in it (like 10 years now?) and it hurts to see them floundering.

This isn't the old NewTek we are dealing with, it may be some of the same marketing and it may be the same owner but it's not the same artists (coders). These guys have to prove themselves the way the last guys did. While they have done a few good things so far, I can't say they have proven that they are as good as the last team yet. Maybe they will accomplish that by the time 9.0 comes out, but they are not there yet. Just take a look at the feature lists of the last few releases, they are huge as compared to this one.

If NewTek is up front with us, tells us what is going on, and why delays are happening, I will be more than willing to cut them some slack. I'm not saying they need to reveal trade secrets. However when they do things like the false launch in December and offer up no reason as to why it happened, it really burns my confidence in them. Since this team has not proven themselves, I can only assume the worst.
I would rather hear them say, "the new team is having a hard time getting up to speed" or "it is buggy as hell and we have to work these bugs out" or "there was a top secret project that we thought we could get in there in december and it turns out that we can't", than to say "lightwave has never looked better", then go 5 months late on the product for no reason other than” it’s not ready yet".

One of the great things about the lightwave community is that is has always been more like a family than anything else. It's ok if dad walks around in his underwear and mom wears her moomoo. But when mom and dad start dressing up just to greet the kids, the kids are going to start to wonder what's up with the parents.

Chuck
04-30-2004, 04:16 PM
Scott, I honestly have the feeling that any company that communicated in the way you suggest would be out of business pretty quickly, after providing a minimal amount of entertainment for its competitors and detractors.

We're not the first company to take a little longer than estimated with a release, we are a long way from being the comapny that was furthest off in estimating a release, and I truly suspect that we would not have helped the situation by being the first to treat the matter as reason to use our public communications as though we're on the analyst's couch unfolding our tales of woe to our therapist.

theo
04-30-2004, 07:57 PM
Chuck:

I truly suspect that we would not have helped the situation by being the first to treat the matter as reason to use our public communications as though we're on the analyst's couch unfolding our tales of woe to our therapist.

Oooh... how true Chuck- I can just see bloody chunks of Newtek flesh flying all over the place if you guys would have chosen this approach. It would essentially have been a Newtek feeding frenzy with some sly assistance from the competition no doubt. A REAL Texas chainsaw massacre. The last thing any true Lightwaver needs is a Newtek genocide.

Jockomo
05-01-2004, 02:15 AM
Well if being upfront and honest with your customers is the path to going out of business then by all means, hide the truth behind a veil of secrecy and spin.

Before now I always upgraded Lightwave without a second thought, which is why I had no problems pre-ordering. But from now on I will be waiting till the products are shipping and the reviews are in before making my purchase.

hazmat777
05-01-2004, 02:50 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jockomo
[B]Well if being upfront and honest with your customers is the path to going out of business then by all means, hide the truth behind a veil of secrecy and spin.

So you would be "upfront and honest" if you discovered that 8 provided a much less expensive way to render your productions and then pass the savings on to your customers? It's just a different point of sale.

I've heard that what you sell is the result. If we sold our time, we would be making less money with every dollar spent on upgrades. Since we can get more results faster with upgrades, we can take on more customers, not lower our prices. There will always be spin when it comes to sales, it's just tough to be on the side without all the answers!

If I'm stupid about the business side, sorry!

tokyo drifter
05-01-2004, 03:44 AM
What you call upfront and honest would be nice, but the problem is that many would use that sensitive information to attack them. For instance, you gave the example, "the new team is having a hard time getting up to speed". If Chuck announced that, then all hell would break lose, people would exaggerate it, saying that it's going to be years till the next Lightwave comes out, or say that the new team isn't as good as the old one, that they're too slow, etc. You get the picture.

Nemoid
05-01-2004, 04:10 AM
IMO Newtek has been honest to their users. they enhanced Lw as they stated. could seem not a great enhancements, in the sense it's not a total overhaul of teh app, but they really did what they announced, introducěng better rigging tools, and CA tools, and also introducing new tools in modeler.
The only "errors" they did were in announcing estimate dates wich they missed.and making this happen 2 times the 2nd one especially noticeable with the 72 days estimate release date. the development took a huge time more than they expected.

Aout the dfx+ deal, an interesting thing is that Nt made actually a great offer, allowing users to have DFX+ ata good price, immediately, assuring the upgrade of Lw when it was ready. after all, DFX+ isn't a t shirt. its a whole compositing app. so the users got what they bought for sure. No prob.

I think that another impersonal and cold company based only on sales would have made no announcements, no estimate dates no feature description movies till the app was ready. and no forum in wich complain publically every damn day.

Emmanuel
05-01-2004, 04:46 AM
As long as NT can keep on making happy everyone on a certain level, they will do the right thing.
You can probably not ask them to make the best available tool for any need, if such things existed than nobody would need custom plugins.
I for one like to see NT implementing features equally for all the different
categories, and I also have the privilege to just skip an update if the price/feature ratio isn't to my liking.
Sure, the particle system might not be the best on the market, and the character stuff probably is *still* lacking or flaky.
But we now have hardbody dynamics, which is a new thing.
The problem I see is only that NT have to be very delicate about how they implement features without hurting the third parties although to ME, as NT-customer, the base product is more important than the third parties.
The day will come when Impact 3 for example will not be that much more evolved than LW9s hardbodies.
The day will come when LW will probably have an integrated hair system up to par with Sasquatch.
I think ist very difficult for NT to 1)manage the restructuring with a new dev team 2)keep working with partially old code 3)integrate new features 4)do R&D for new features 5)plan new features without hurting third parties....very, very difficult.I am glad I am not a development manger there.
I guess the NT guys could pull off implementation of killer features without a problem, if there weren't any budget and time constraints.
Maybe we will see killer stuff like Hypervoxels used to be when they were introduced in future revisions.
I guess Zbrush is a certain influence, as well as messiah:animate and messiah:studio.

The one thing I would really love to see improved *significantly" is documentation and examples.
I have said it earlier, creating an easy to understand yet fully informative documentation is very demanding, and so far, I have not been pleased with ANY LW documentation since 4.0.
I don't think that any manual since back then ever took really care of difficult new features.MD explanation was okay, as was ParticleFX, but I think MotionMixer, expressions, motion plugins etc could need MUCH better explanations, with a lot more both exotic and trivial examples.

theo
05-01-2004, 06:36 AM
Jock-----------
Seriously man you need to move on like the rest of us have. Just take a deep breath and relax. We know Newtek was a bad boy, Newtek knows they were bad boys but everybody wants and needs to move forward now that they finally have a great product on the ground.

Just chalk the whole thing up to experience Bro. It looks as though you have made a determination on what needs to be done the next time a LW upgrade rolls in town so that's out of the way. The only left is you so put a big smile on your face and get to work with LW8 my friend.

I personally feel that we are on the cusp of some great future developments with LightWave.

Emmanuel------------
You make some good points but there again I still have to stick by my desire to see PFX power geatly enhanced. You are also generalizing and this is easy to do when LW is catering to such a broad segment of the market. Plus the app is so deep that many aspects of the various toolsets may not even be per project applicable.

So please guys- I love ya'll but leave my PFX alone unless you are a hardcore user. If you are a hardcore user and you still think PFX is fine the way it is then I WILL have to beat you about the head and temples with a ravioli for a prolonged period of time.

Over and out-

Emmanuel
05-01-2004, 07:41 AM
How would You define a hardcore user ?
I mean, if You work at a studio doing general "bread and butter" work day in day out You can't avoid to get in touch with every aspect of LW, from Particles and Hypervoxels to character animation and photorealistic rendering.
I call someone a hardcore user who can work efficiently with the *whole* package, not with just a certain aspect, like particles or modeling or texturing.
These users are specialists, and I doubt LW is a package for specialists, except maybe for modeling.
I for one wouldn't want NT to spend more time onf the particles than on the render engine or the CA tools :)
Because I love beeing a generalist.
Have You ever tried Thinking Particles or Napalm ?

theo
05-01-2004, 08:10 AM
Since when can you use Thinking Particles within LW? Never- its a C4 mod.

It is a fact of life that some parts of the 3D process will become someone's specialty just because of the way that person is wired cognitively.

More power to you if want to be a generalist. It's your bag of tea if you prefer being a "Good at all- Master at nothing" type person.

I for one, WOULD want NT to invest time into a more advanced Houdini-level PFX system. This isn't going to happen though any time soon. Lightwave seems to appeal to the "generalists" which is probably a huge chunk of the market. Most mass markets consist of the "general" level of demand. I understand though- if this is where the money is one might as well capitalize on it. This isn't a negative commentary on LW at all just the overall marketing process in general.

I am pretty much blowing smoke here anyways- I am a liquid sim freak so I will naturally be more inclined to push this concept but in retrospect I should have just kept this opinion to myself in the first place.

I guess the whole point iof my argument is that I want more God-like control WITHIN the LW PFX system and not have to resort to plugs all the time.

3d user
05-01-2004, 08:11 AM
In my opinion publicity from Newtek about LW 8 was as it should be. Allthough "openness" in a product still being developed may sound like a good thing from cutomers viewpoint it may backfire badly.
For example Amd published some of their specs on upcoming CPU a couple of years ago. So week before Amd unveiling their new CPU Intel revealed they would have even better comparison feature. It was mostly vaporware but I'm sure Amd lost a lot of costomers then ("Amd has this new feature, but Intel has even better down the road - let's wait").
Another example is Osborne computer company which way back in the eighties released that they will have a twice as fast computer later that year. So from then on nobody bought a new Osborne since a better was upcoming! This was one major factor in Osbornes demise. Since all sales stalled the new computer could not be finished and released due to diminished cash flow.

Lightwolf
05-01-2004, 08:34 AM
Hi 3d user,
I think there is a different between openness on ground breaking features (which should be done in secret, and then revealed at launch, or close to that imho), and openness on "we're trying to catch up" features, which might persuade people to stick to their current tool.
Some features in the latter category would be stuff like the promised openEXR support (which isn't in L[8] yet), multi-layer compositing support etc.
The first category would be stuff like a revolutionary renderer, new algorithms, stuff like that.
just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Mike - btw, I actually think PFX really rocks, except for some quirks. But I haven't touched Napalm in ages...

Chuck
05-01-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
Well if being upfront and honest with your customers is the path to going out of business then by all means, hide the truth behind a veil of secrecy and spin.

We are upfront and honest with our customers. If you think that being upfront and honest requires denigrating either our development staff or the code in bouts of public corporate self-flagellation, then we have some differences of opinion regarding what constitutes effective and honest communication in the best interest of both the customer and company.


Before now I always upgraded Lightwave without a second thought, which is why I had no problems pre-ordering. But from now on I will be waiting till the products are shipping and the reviews are in before making my purchase.

Jockomo, we certainly respect that our customers must do what they feel is best for their business. To be frank, we very much prefer it when the customer makes a decision to purchase based on hands-on experience of the products they are considering, including ours. In the long run we are confident, in fact, that that will be the best for them and for us.

There were a lot of reasons that made it necessary for NewTek to announce LightWave [8] when we did and to conduct the development of LightWave [8] as we did, with frequent public showings during that course of time. A company cannot pre-announce a product and maintain sales unless the customers buying the current shipping version know that their investment is safe and they will receive the forthcoming version when it ships. Those unique circumstances are over and done with, and we have in fact come through well and learned a lot in the process. We certainly regret any frustration and angst that this time may have caused in some of our customers, but we expect the future to unfold in far more satisfying fashion for all involved, and to be enriched, and not at all diminished, by lessons learned on all sides.

Librarian
05-01-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by theo
Since when can you use Thinking Particles within LW? Never- its a C4 mod.

It`s not just a C4 mod. Thinking Particles is integrated in Cinema since Version 8. But it`s a modificated cebas product and so is the render core of Maxon`s cinema(final render modificated core).
You`re right that it`s no LW plug, only Max.
http://www.cebas.de/products/products.asp?UD=10-7888-33-788&PID=15

colkai
05-04-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
This isn't the old NewTek we are dealing with, it may be some of the same marketing and it may be the same owner but it's not the same artists (coders). These guys have to prove themselves the way the last guys did.

Now ya see, this is where my head caves in. These 'great old codes' the ones that have moved to L*****.
These are the folsk who did not put any of the features into Lw that people say they have been complaining about for years.
Strangely, now they have left Newtek, they are seen as coding gods.
<shrugs> To me, the fact that they had ideas such as has been taken to M*** but failed to bring any fresh input to LW is not a thing to praise.
Fresh blood, fresh ideas, I agree with your first comment, this is NOT the old Newtek, and all the better for it.

Exper
05-04-2004, 10:10 AM
Agree...
the old dev team ruined our toy! ;)

theo
05-04-2004, 11:07 AM
I say we molecularly rearrange the anatomy of the entire Newtek Dev team into one coalescing mass of throbbing muscle, nerve, and brain tissue, rivulets and all. No skin would be necessary as this entire unit will be housed indoors.

Then hardwire the cellular structure to think as strong as Popeye punches. I think this mass of muscle and crap could just be plopped on the floor- then jam some fiber optic cables into it and let this gelatinous glob just whir all of the resulting data onto the net and into our hard drives where thrice daily a new binary wish would be granted.

The gaping hole in middle of this throbbing quivering mass of tissue and veins would be a large lipless mouth where gallons of spinach would be deposited thrice daily to lend credence to its genetically-modified persona of Popeye.

To protect this globular Newtekian mass I propose injecting genes that would outfit the larger inverted veins with Venus flytrap-like coordination that would beat binary burglars about the head and temples.

Sounds doable to me.:D

Exper
05-04-2004, 11:10 AM
Hehe :D

Jockomo
05-04-2004, 11:19 AM
UH, those are also the folks who created your "toy" in the first place. They are the ones who created the lightwave that you have been praising for years. They are the ones who created the lightwave that we all know and love, that is why they are seen as coding gods.

And honestly I hope the new team can put them to shame. But it hasn't happened yet.

Exper
05-04-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
.... that is why they are seen as coding gods.Jockomo...
you're half true!

Note: the old Dev. Team was (and not is) seen as coding gods.

When I say they ruined the toy...
I mean:
take a look...
the same problems year after year...
the same bugs year after year...
the same close-mineded attitude year after year...
the same deaf Team year after year... (I stop but I'd continue).

Another little thing?
Ok... infamous Lux affair!

Hoping the new Team will be less childish!
That's all!

We all love LW but...
love is enternal untill it lasts! :(

P.S. this is my first flame post... but who cares! :mad:

Exper
05-04-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Jockomo
And honestly I hope the new team can put them to shame. But it hasn't happened yet. They still battling with the bad/inefficient/uncommented/half-complete old dev. team's code... for sure!

P.S. flame n.2... again... who cares! :mad:

Phil
05-04-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Exper
When I say they ruined the toy...
I mean:
take a look...
the same problems year after year...
the same bugs year after year...
the same close-mineded attitude year after year...
the same deaf Team year after year... (I stop but I'd continue).


I think that's a little harsh to be honest. The .0 releases were generally somewhat flaky, but 5.5/5.6 was a cracking upgrade at the time and 6.5 and 7.5 have been well regarded free upgrades to the respective .0 releases. All those came from the 'old' dev team, remember.

I jumped from 5.5 to 7.0 because there was a real issue in the 3rd party support for 6.x in terms of plugins and 7.0 was a compelling upgrade. I now love Motion Mixer, PFX, etc. That said, there are bugs that annoy me regularly - particularly with multithreaded rendering for which I'm hopeful that Deuce will get a patch out for both 7.5 and also for 8.0 (which unfortunately still has the problem despite my best efforts to avoid this by reporting the issue last year). I also don't like the expression system, much prefering Prem's Relativity 2.0 plugin for all expressions in LW.

I also know that Mac users have had a very raw deal for quite some time and this can firmly be laid at the door of NT (who perhaps should use their 'close working relationship' with Apple to actually test LW against the seeded builds of OSX prior to Apple releasing them).

I guess time will tell, but the complaints about 8.0 seem to be fairly thin on the ground compared to the usual flood after a new LW .0 release, so either people still don't have it, or they like it.

js33
05-05-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by theo
I say we molecularly rearrange the anatomy of the entire Newtek Dev team into one coalescing mass of throbbing muscle, nerve, and brain tissue, rivulets and all. No skin would be necessary as this entire unit will be housed indoors.

Then hardwire the cellular structure to think as strong as Popeye punches. I think this mass of muscle and crap could just be plopped on the floor- then jam some fiber optic cables into it and let this gelatinous glob just whir all of the resulting data onto the net and into our hard drives where thrice daily a new binary wish would be granted.

The gaping hole in middle of this throbbing quivering mass of tissue and veins would be a large lipless mouth where gallons of spinach would be deposited thrice daily to lend credence to its genetically-modified persona of Popeye.

To protect this globular Newtekian mass I propose injecting genes that would outfit the larger inverted veins with Venus flytrap-like coordination that would beat binary burglars about the head and temples.

Sounds doable to me.:D

Hehehehe. Now there's an animation idea!

Theo,

Your mastery of painting pictures with words always amuses me.:D

Cheers,
JS

Exper
05-05-2004, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Phil
I think that's a little harsh to be honest. The .0 releases were generally somewhat flaky, but 5.5/5.6 was a cracking upgrade at the time and 6.5 and 7.5 have been well regarded free upgrades to the respective .0 releases. All those came from the 'old' dev team, remember.
Agree... a little harsh...
but please consider the evolution of competing apps in the last years...
and then think about LW (our good and beloved LW is quite a snail in comparison).

Hoping the new Dev. Team will boost up the evolution cycle! :cool:

jin choung
05-05-2004, 04:46 AM
my only hope is that lw remains a viable 'ak-47' compared to the M16s of more monied products.

sure, aks ain't cuttin' edge technology.... but when ya got one pointed at ya, it's far from irrelevant.

jin

colkai
05-05-2004, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
sure, aks ain't cuttin' edge technology.... but when ya got one pointed at ya, it's far from irrelevant.
jin

LOL! :D :D

Funnee, but good anology. Heck, let's face it, the old internal combustion engine ain't evolved in decades so I guess the software business ain't doing that bad. ;)

Edbittner
05-05-2004, 05:35 AM
Hi guys,
In my opinion, Newtek really needs to work on the SDK part of the program. It seems like every time I read an article in Cinefex about recent films using, (Maya for example), the FX guys are always saying stuff like, " Maya, with its open ended architecture really gave us the ability to do this and that, blah, blah, blah"....
So, as I said, it's only my opinion, if Lightwave gave film-makers the option to easily tweek one or another of its features, or write a quick code to overcome a certain problem the FX guys are facing by opening up its architecture, EVERYONE would be using it. Even as it is, Lightwave is used by almost all the FX houses for one thing or another. With the most bang for the buck,( as we all know), if Newtek could "open end" the SDK a bit more like let's say, Maya's, it would be number 1 without question.
Ed
S*R* PRODUCTIIONS

jin choung
05-05-2004, 06:02 AM
yeah,

i've been singing this refrain for a while now but you really have to look at lw PRIMARILY in terms of "bang for buck" or "price/performance".

because it is admittedly not keeping up round for round with maya, xsi, etc.

it really is a western war toys vs. soviet war toys analogy.... and my continuing point is that the soviet war toys are indeed technologically inferior... but for that, they're easier to use and cheaper... hell, the ak-47 is the "world's gun". you may not know a candy bar from a hole in the ground but your kid sleeps with an ak....

and so the thing that i try to come to grips with, and suggest to others as well; but admittedly, it is not at all something that marketing would embrace; is this concept:

MODERATION OF EXPECTATION

cuz if they don't jack up the price including buy in, upgrades, etc etc etc, ya ain't gonna get a first world weapon for a third world price.

it is part of the bargain. that's the deal.

so in criticisms and feature requests, i've been trying to keep all feedback within the realm of do-able in my estimation... what can they do without breaking the bank. and we must keep in mind that there are a great many desirable things that will break the bank.

jin

jin choung
05-05-2004, 06:11 AM
actually,

recently i read a very compelling article about the effects of the prevalence of PIRACY on lower priced alternatives:

in other markets, if there is a benz and you can't afford that but you need a car, you can (and probably MUST) get a hyundai.

but piracy is making this almost an untenable strategy for software makers. no one ends up settling for the hyundai cuz they can just swipe the benz.

adobe themselves would never admit to it but piracy of photoshop is probably photoshop's greatest competitor! same thing with windows. and this in turn keeps prices up and make alternative solutions like paintshop pro and linux almost unnecessary.

and in this sense, it is supremely ironic then that piracy for the big boys ends up being a tremendous liability and a tremendous market ally at the exact same time!

fun-ny.

and how piracy for the little guy ends up hurting almost double.

man, it really is true: those who have will be given more. those who do not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

always seemed like a harsh policy to me but the more i live, the more it seems that it is so....

jin

jin choung
05-05-2004, 06:33 AM
sorry, i'm bored:

UPGRADES & FIXES THAT WON'T BREAK THE BANK:

1. coalescing, fixing and improving the current mess that is displacement and bump mapping options.

2. redoing the subdivision order list so that you can specifically move around entries like 'skeletons', 'deformations', 'plugins', etc in relation to 'subdivision' instead of the curent, first, last thing.... right now, you may be able to get displacement mapping to work for you but it won't be something you will want to animate with a skeleton - and that is just ridiculous.

3. real edges support

4. all quads on first iteration SDS aka true catmull clark: much nicer with less pinching. this can be cheap because they can just look at the BLENDER SOURCECODE FOR FREE to see how its done and extrapolate from that.

5. edge weights for sds

6. removing gourad smoothing as a SURFACE property and simply making it a property of the object... every edge can be selected and tagged to be SMOOTH or SHARP.

7. EDGE MAPS (ala vertex maps) - i'm no software developers but it is my intuition that requests 5 and 6 will require this. 3,5,6 and 7 all being closely related.

8. UV MAP SDS CAGE WITHOUT DISTORTION: it seems that the way maya deals with this issue without using its HIERARCHICAL SDS (don't even think about this fellows... this is a break the bank feature) is by simply dumping in the uvs of the cage after one iteration of subdivision... but it's nothing fancy, nothing exotic... the edges in uvspace are still STRAIGHT. we can achieve a similar result by simply using linked but separate models as i've outlined elsewhere - just provide an official solution to this.

9. getting rid of the ******* CONSTRUCTION and DETAIL name tabs!!! what distinguishing description does either provide?! please don't let this be a pet peeve that i take to the grave!!!

MODIFY - good
MULTIPLY - good
construction - bad newtek bad! no bisquit!
detail - don't make me get the switch....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i personally DON'T think they can do rendertime adaptive 'tesselation' (dicing actually) (this is the feature that is required for 'micropoly displacement' because it requires a different kind of render procedure. it requires figuring out who is where and based on render resolution, dice at render time.

i'm not certain that altering the renderer to do this would break the bank but it is my intuition... i.e. it is a big task.

that said, if newtek simply gets displacements working reliably with displacement maps such that we can use them in a workflow involving bones animations and such, i think that would be good enough for me.

manually setting resolution of an entire mesh just before render ain't too bad of a trade off for the price imo.

jin

Hervé
05-05-2004, 06:43 AM
Jin, I dunno your abilities in the coding area, but at least NT should engage you as a guide for the directions.... I love your serious directions...!;) :D

colkai
05-05-2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by jin choung
it is part of the bargain. that's the deal.

so in criticisms and feature requests, i've been trying to keep all feedback within the realm of do-able in my estimation... what can they do without breaking the bank. and we must keep in mind that there are a great many desirable things that will break the bank.

jin

Yeah,
I think people don't have that thought process, the "I want it all..and I want it now" mentality prevails. As you say, some things are just too expensive to code. Speaking as a developer I know my boss would just not entertain some of the 'upgrades' we could make to our software because 1) It would take our small team too long or 2) he'd have to pay for additional workforce, which he is not likely to do.

Speaking as someone who has little cash flow and tends to buy 'non-cutting edge' hardware etc, (simply because it is cheaper), I like LW because it isn't trying to be on the edge, which, to me, makes it easier to understand.

I was looking at a tutorial on surfacing in (I think), XSI in 3DWorld, it looked more like coding than anything. It was node based but reading it, did not feel remotely human, more like mathematics gone mad. I like that LW has simple boxes and sliders for this, sure, you can't generate complex shader models that the other method could, but like I say, just feels more 'human'. ;)

As to your ideas on piracy, I agree 100%, I have heard it said just recently, "I was using a cracked copy but I'm gonna get the full version" as regards a package. It's as if some people have to use it to make money to decide it's worth spending money on (shrugs) weird, but there you are.

True as well that pirates seem to think, if you're gonna pirate 3D software, why not the full XSI / Maya rather than a cheaper package. It's almost as if the pirate equates *their* status with the level of the software they are ripping off! :p

Lightwolf
05-05-2004, 06:45 AM
Hi Jin,
I basically agree 100% with your post.

Originally posted by jin choung
i personally DON'T think they can do rendertime adaptive 'tesselation' (dicing actually)
Well, I think they could, but not in the whole rendering pipeline. After all, LW is currently basically two renderers glued together (in a way), a very quick z-buffer renderer for the primary visibility, and then a rather slow raytracer fro reflections, shadows, etc...
So micopolygons would have to be implemented into both render paths, and while it would be relatively easy for the primary visibility, I assume it would be a pain in the current raytracer (...and very slow).
NT needs to move ahead in that area though, and a revamp of the renderer is definetly needed (and no, not enough money is now excuse, if PmG can do it with even less people, so can NT ;) ).
Cheers,
Mike

Hervé
05-05-2004, 06:47 AM
about #6, there is a tool like that in Image Modeler from Realviz... but one should find a good way to vizualize those... I mean Smooth edges are dotted... and unsmooth edges are plain lines... I found this is easy to forget one or two edges sometimes... but nice tool... oh and in IM, you have no keyboard shortcut, you HAVE to go in the menu thing.... arghh:( :D

theo
05-05-2004, 06:56 AM
Hey JS33- I appreciate the compliment. It's always fun to write nutty especially on a forum where half the guys are nuts, including myself.

theo
05-05-2004, 07:14 AM
Jin- I have to chime in here buddy with your points as well. Excellent way to illustrate your point with the AK47 versus M16 analogy.

And I think you are spot on with pushing for "doables" within the software engineering evolution of Lightwave with one caveat, which is- that it is sometimes necessary to ALSO have a level desired changed that may be unachievable to enhance the resolve of the engineering team above the menial. In other words if the Dev team stays focused soley on what is attainable are we going to create a team that is less "cutting-edge".

I think this dynamic is healthy. Practically everyone in this forum is a dynamic of change of some sort and that isn't really going to happen unless you are pushing in the direction of goals that oftentimes seem to be unreachable.

This may be more of a psycho-analytical standpoint but in the corporate world psychometrics are pretty important.

Exper
05-05-2004, 07:21 AM
Great post theo!

Spur on the new Dev. Team...
we want an innovative LW...
as it was many years ago! :cool:

theo
05-05-2004, 07:42 AM
Thanks Exper- I notice your avatar leans toward the abstract. This is interesting to me- Even though I am quite good at the realism side the abstract side of 3D imagery and animation holds more of a fascination for me because it is tends to create a synergy within the intellectual and emotional chemical structure of the brain.

The fractal nature of computer generated art is pushed to a new and exciting edge when it is mated to the random interpratations of an artist who understands abstract reasoning and non-repeating patterns.

With the addition of new time and space tools the abstract thought processes of the artist can be realized on a trans-dimensional- rather than just multi-dimensional- plane

Yummy stuff!

Sorry for getting off topic guys-

jin choung
05-05-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by theo
Sorry for getting off topic guys-

hahaha! and how! i know next to nothing about abstract art so i still can't get a fix on whether you're joking or not!

i'm fine with the whole 'pushing' the team thing and agree with the principle of striving for more than what you are. just a note then that we as users shouldn't expect that all twenty of our next generation requests get done for version 8.01 and go [email protected]#$ when it doesn't happen.

lightwolf:

i hope you're right and i'm wrong. rendertime dicing would be awesome... the only thing that makes me cower at it is that in order to keep up render speed, REYES renderers ADAPTIVELY tesselates objects so that a single object is not a uniform density - and that according to space partitioning and such.

was it you that also pointed out that POSER has it now? (!!!) well, hopefully then, they can do it and really make our sds take advantage of the fact that it is a resolution independent surface.

colkai:

i don't know xsi but i agree with what you're saying too. and in maya as well, there are some things that you simply cannot do with the gui... so absolutely, 'primitivity' has advantages. ideally, an app would have BOTH in equal meaure - a simple, human interface for casual work or regular joes and a 'power interface' that goes nuts with the nodes and 'programming' model for really powerful and batch kinds of operations. but no app like that currently exists.... certainly not houdini....

herve:

well, in maya, there's a view just like that: soft, smoothed edges are dotted. hard edges are undotted... that overlaid on the actual opengl surface is very easy to interpret.

and although i've studied programming (3 books on c++ and 3 on python), i've never programmed anything more complicated than a prime number generator (nothing fancy, just brute force) and really, it's difficult for me to imagine a NEED to program something from scratch these days. but i admire greatly the discipline and those who can do it... perhaps a teaspoon of the mindset has seeped in.

jin

Lightwolf
05-05-2004, 08:27 AM
Hi jin,
I'd never mention Poser, it wasn't me :)
Actually, what I meant was that it would be _realtively_ easy to primary vis, with something reyes like, _however_ that would _not_ work with anything raytraced. And getting that to work decently would probably mean a major overhaul of the renderer...
As for doing stuff from scratch. There is a difference between programming from scratch, and actually designing concepts from scratch. And both can be worthwhile (looking at where XSI is now, or PmG).
Sometimes it helps to gather all the experience you have, clean out the closest, think in a new, better direction and start from scratch. A house will only be as stable as the foundation will allow (no AK-47/M-16 analogy from me here, esp. since the AK is more robust, which is where you analogy is flawed ;) ).
Cheers,
Mike

Exper
05-05-2004, 11:16 AM
theo...
funny post about abstract art! :D :D


Originally posted by jin choung
just a note then that we as users shouldn't expect that all twenty of our next generation requests get done for version 8.01 and go [email protected]#$ when it doesn't happen.Agree...
simply hoping NT will slap us with a "revolution-come-back" product! :cool:

crusaderx
08-03-2004, 08:23 AM
my spin on it... and this may sound socially cynical... but its my opinion.

Lightwave is using regular traditional channels to market itself... like any other company... ad here, trade show there, user support, etc.
with the equation of = advertise, collect income analyze results.

3DMax use agressive marketing...
Get market share... send 100,000 free copies to schools, universities, etc. donate and fund private universities for insider access to course corriculum... All this with with negative income on outlay...

thus, operate at a loss, by pushing your religion (err... software) on everyone... then in time when everyone becomes a member of the church, start asking for big tithes!

This is what max did... back in the days when thier product completely sucked R1, R2 etc. Now they enjoy a healthy market share in users, and as my past experience goes alot of studios who hire new talent, in short time (if they like you, and you ask) , may be persuaded to switch to another program if it doesnt wreck the work flow.
ie: if the studio has 35 lightwave seats but the job market has only 5 LW graduates and 5000 Max graduates... what is the studio to do? not to mention if the job market is saturated with Max animators they become less valuable (as there is more compewtition for jobs)... thus studios love it cause wages can go down.

it pretty much equates to how the Japanese stole the TV market in the US in the 70s/80s by dumping product as below cost... eventually if you have large market share the profits will come in as you jack the price and eventually you can hire the talent to make the product better...
after all Sony makes better TVs than RCA (today at least).

They have made laws against market dumping... but that doesnt apply to donations... and since software copies essentially cost nothing... max can grab the university market by mailing free Max CDs with a pre-prepared teachers curriculum attached. Nasty approach, but hey it worked for IBM PCs in the 80s (with hardware), again for Max in the 90s, Microsoft (free web browser in the OS), etc etc...

Will Lightwave be the next Netscape? I hope not... but they keep fighting the good fight of market decency.. in an age of bullies.

I dont think this approach is fair market play... and imoral... but tis the way of the modern world....

......after all you dont need to win elections anymore... just be aggressive enough and falsely advertise the idea that you won, and no one will question you... the opponent might even just step aside. ;-)

Hervé
08-03-2004, 11:24 PM
Hey Michael Moore, remove your mask, I have recognized U......:D

Back to the life of work....

Cheers and good luck Michael !:D :D ;)

WizCraker
08-04-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by jin choung
my only hope is that lw remains a viable 'ak-47' compared to the M16s of more monied products.

sure, aks ain't cuttin' edge technology.... but when ya got one pointed at ya, it's far from irrelevant.

jin

So would you rather have an M-16 Pointed at you? I can have that arranged.

eon5
08-04-2004, 08:35 PM
... that NEWTEK sold LW license/code to a BIG ONE 3D COMPANY.

is this information true ? :confused:

Hervé
08-04-2004, 11:02 PM
Take a bull... a big one.... give him lots of good fat grass.... make him go to toilets... and you got... a pile of S......

They dont know hat there are saying...... Jesus will forgive'em for that....:D