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View Full Version : Clear up a stupid question about LW8 release...



Carbon71
04-25-2004, 09:47 PM
OK, I must be really out of the loop but, what the hell is going on?

People are receiving thier LW8 copies and there has been no Official release statement or anything? Nab was all about VT3 and LW8 is just a supporting product? I see suddenly XSI and MAYA have officially anounced new versions out? Big news right?

I guess Im asking:
When's the big LW8 annoucement?

Where is the ticker tape parade and fanfare for the big grand opening? Is this the future of LW: a supporting product for video toaster?

just confused,
Carbon

"This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang, but a wimper. "
- T. S. Eliot

mkiii
04-26-2004, 12:09 AM
If you read the various LW8 threads, you will see that LW8 has *not* launched yet. All that is happening is the pre-order customers are starting to get their 'electronic' upgrades. This is not a full release, since it does not include a manual.

The manual is not ready yet, so the official release will not happen until Newtek has something bulky to put in the boxes to stop the CDs rattling about.

jamesl
04-26-2004, 12:46 AM
Hrm. But the actual program HAS been released, ie, it is available to the general public? So, like, it's not released, but it is?

I'm watching my mailbox...

j

Original1
04-26-2004, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
Hrm. But the actual program HAS been released, ie, it is available to the general public? So, like, it's not released, but it is?

I'm watching my mailbox...

j

Its not exactly available to the general public, since you can't buy a copy of Lightwave 8 of the shelf yet.

"Silly Wabbit";oP

Exper
04-26-2004, 03:02 AM
LW8 is available only to everyone who pre-ordered in a unfinished package:
no PDF (or paper manual) nor tutorials...
as far as I know!

Carbon71
04-26-2004, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by mkiii
If you read the various LW8 threads, you will see that LW8 has *not* launched yet. All that is happening is the pre-order customers are starting to get their 'electronic' upgrades. This is not a full release, since it does not include a manual.

The manual is not ready yet, so the official release will not happen until Newtek has something bulky to put in the boxes to stop the CDs rattling about.

Right. Yeah I got that. It just seems weird that it's been physically released but not officially released yet. I wonder what the hold up on the manuals and tutorials was. I'm sure ideally you would want to have an official release with manuals and everything simultaneous with the electronic upgrade versions.

I'm just saying it's anti-climatic to the news of LW8 existence in the world to just be from some guy, "dude, It's here, this roxors!!" as opposed to offcial press release and a community message from chuck or proton.

Zach
04-26-2004, 09:50 AM
I'm curious what they left out that they said they were putting in. I forget what, but Chuck mentioned that they have to take down some of the features on the feature page cause it didn't make it into this release.

Zach
04-26-2004, 09:52 AM
Here's the thread actually...

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21648

Wade
04-26-2004, 09:58 AM
I see suddenly XSI and MAYA have officially anounced new versions out? Big news right?


And when do you suppose these might ship or have they just announced to capture some to the thunder from 8?

Who knows?

Same bat channel same bat time tune in next week!

Nemoid
04-26-2004, 11:33 AM
Agree. i think Nt did the right thing sending Lw8 to the people wich preordered even without manuals for now.
Think the packed version will come soon since they're preparing the pdf and also a tut manual let's give them some time to do this properly. Also some time to print paper manuals will be required.

claymation
04-26-2004, 11:37 AM
is it me or has there ever been a LW anouncement. I mean I've used it since 6.5 and don't remember any big announcements on cgtalk or well, anywhere? 7? 7.5? always seems like it is dug out by a user and shared with the rest of us.

WizCraker
04-26-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Zach
I'm curious what they left out that they said they were putting in. I forget what, but Chuck mentioned that they have to take down some of the features on the feature page cause it didn't make it into this release.

Makes you wonder how much they really had not completed in December. If they are taking features out of the final build 4 almost 5 months after missing Deadline Release Date #1. Also they show us features in Videos that Proton did but they take them out.

Sounds like they were feeding the paying users fluff.

Wade
04-26-2004, 12:36 PM
Point releases.

Digital Junkie
04-26-2004, 12:43 PM
What gets me is that its ALMOST been done for the last six months, now its KINDA shipping (something youre average user likely doesnt know unless they search these forums) I thought that NAB was going to be the 'Official' realease date. Now I MIGHT get it this week. I'm trying not to sound too negative I just wish this subject was a lot clearer, theres too many kinda's, mabye's, if's, when's, or but's.

WizCraker
04-26-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Digital Junkie
What gets me is that its ALMOST been done for the last six months, now its KINDA shipping (something youre average user likely doesnt know unless they search these forums) I thought that NAB was going to be the 'Official' realease date. Now I MIGHT get it this week. I'm trying not to sound too negative I just wish this subject was a lot clearer, theres too many kinda's, mabye's, if's, when's, or but's.

I agree.

So what part of New Mexico you in? I grew up in Clovis.

Jockomo
04-26-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Digital Junkie
What gets me is that its ALMOST been done for the last six months, now its KINDA shipping


I just hope that when we get it, it doesn't just "SORTA" work.

Digital Junkie
04-26-2004, 01:19 PM
Question: does anybody know what version lightwave was in when Maya 1.0 first came out? It just seems to me, at this rate Maya will be in version 10 before lightwave gets to 9. (should this worry me?)

WizCracker, I have lived in Albuquerque my whole life. just curious but where is XT, Nitsua? (forgive my ignorence)

mrunion
04-26-2004, 01:34 PM
I'm guessing Austin, TX....

Digital Junkie
04-26-2004, 01:42 PM
Gee, that required some observation. ( Duh, I feel dumb):confused: Thanks Mrunion

WizCraker
04-26-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Digital Junkie
Question: does anybody know what version lightwave was in when Maya 1.0 first came out? It just seems to me, at this rate Maya will be in version 10 before lightwave gets to 9. (should this worry me?)

From the Alais History (http://www.alias.com/eng/about/history/19901999.shtml#1998) part of their Website
1998 - Long-awaited launch of Maya
Alias|Wavefront's introduces its new 3D flagship product Maya. Maya is a leader in the industry in the following key areas: bringing characters to life, explosive visual effect and system architecture. Representatives from Blue Sky/VIFX, Cinesite, Dream Pictures Studio, Dream Quest Images, GLC Productions, Kleiser-Walczak, Rhonda Graphics, Square, Santa Barbara Studios and Imagination Plantation were among many of the BETA customers to support Maya.

Roots from Power Animator.

I would guess Lightwave 5.6 was out at about this time.



WizCracker, I have lived in Albuquerque my whole life. just curious but where is XT, Nitsua? (forgive my ignorence)

Austin, TX

Digital Junkie
04-26-2004, 02:03 PM
So that means that maya releases two versions for every one of Lightwave's? That just Skrews the Pooch! So theoreticly Maya and Lightwave should both reach version 10 at around the same time? I just hope Maya does'nt get easy to use or cheap to puchase. Damn that Pooch!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

robinson
04-26-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Digital Junkie
So that means that maya releases two versions for every one of Lightwave's? That just Skrews the Pooch! So theoreticly Maya and Lightwave should both reach version 10 at around the same time? I just hope Maya does'nt get easy to use or cheap to puchase. Damn that Pooch!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Donít forget that maya 1.0 updates are Lightwave .5 updates, and the Lightwave .5 updates are free. ;)

joeh
04-27-2004, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by robinson
Donít forget that maya 1.0 updates are Lightwave .5 updates, and the Lightwave .5 updates are free. ;)

I don't know about that, Maya, for all its flaws, seems to be developing at a more rapid rate, and the 4.5 release added a fluidics engine...
Joe

Maimo
04-27-2004, 09:52 PM
i can't wait till this is all over, i'm getting sooooo tired of talking about this.

Librarian
04-27-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by robinson
Don?t forget that maya 1.0 updates are Lightwave .5 updates, and the Lightwave .5 updates are free. ;)
That`s just not true. Maya offers more, or let`s say 'bigger', features in major updates than LW usually do in 1.0.
And usually innovative features and not just 'to be on part' ones. Although the 6 release introduces some features(new trax, integrated browser) the competition already has.
Honestly, Iīm a bit disappointed how long it took NT to introduce LW8 with its 'catch up' features. And after the long, loooong ride, some features doesn`t meet the excpectations.
Well, with the current price drop of the competition, it`ll be a very, very hard time for NT :(

Danner
04-27-2004, 11:07 PM
I'd have to dissagree about the future of Lightwave being grim, 7.5c is a very robust build. It's very practical, once you know a few quirks here and there you can do anything, and fast. LW8 improves upon a good base.
Now with the advent of Fprime the lighting-setup-rendering has improved so much and has become so fast it's like using alien technology. Maya has a ton of advanced really cool features that noone uses for real work and some really cool useful features. It's just a different toolset. We have Maya and LW in our company, I use LW and my friend Horacio uses Maya. I always turn out better looking stuff, but it's not Mayas fault, I'm just better than him. (I hope he's not reading this.. but it's true)

Beamtracer
04-27-2004, 11:26 PM
Video Toaster was Newtek's big showcase item at NAB.

I think Newtek should have given Lightwave 8 a bit more billing. I think Lightwave is more relevant to broadcast than Toaster is.

Lightwave 8 was ready to ship at the time of NAB. The program was in gold master. The electronic manual was ready. Sure, a paper version of this still had to be printed, but Newtek could have taken orders. NAB was a chance at big publicity, as we saw the competition basking in.

jamesl
04-28-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Librarian
That`s just not true. Maya offers more, or let`s say 'bigger', features in major updates than LW usually do in 1.0.
And usually innovative features and not just 'to be on part' ones.

eh... list me some examples, please. Their innovation has not been comeasurate to their cost, as far as I'm concerned. Maya Fur? Maya Live? Sub-D's? Poop. How about an integrated hdri renderer (mental ray isn't integrated or even optimised for Maya). OK... scripting. If you like to script, well, there you go.

j

jamesl
04-28-2004, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Video Toaster was Newtek's big showcase item at NAB.

But it wasn't! No Hoopla, No coming features, it was basically last years NAB! And people are saying, well... they're releasing LW8, so that was thier focus. But it wasn't! It HAS NOT officially been released, and that's something that they seem to be taking great pains to express. The truth is that there was no focus at all, no push behind anything (except the press suite where they told reporters that they refuse to compete with Avid and Final Cut Pro, and that there is no demand for HD... WHAT?!?). I dunno...

j

hrgiger
04-28-2004, 03:27 AM
I saw some disappointing reviews of the latest Maya release over at CGTalk. Also, who cares how good XSI is when when only those of us who have more money then we know what to do with can afford it?
I think Lightwave is doing just fine for it's place in the market and will continue to do fine. I think with an improved SDK (esp. now for FPrime) and with some interface enhancements (speed and workflow), Lightwave will be a serious contender.

jin choung
04-28-2004, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
eh... list me some examples, please. Their innovation has not been comeasurate to their cost, as far as I'm concerned. Maya Fur? Maya Live? Sub-D's? Poop. How about an integrated hdri renderer (mental ray isn't integrated or even optimised for Maya). OK... scripting. If you like to script, well, there you go.

j

if you're picking on individual features per upgrade, you might have a point.

but if you doubt that for the money, you get a far more technologically advanced and better, more consistently designed piece of software... i would very much disagree with that.

as genuinely useful as lw is, one of its merits is not the fact that it is WELL DESIGNED.... words such as HAPHAZARD and at best QUIRKY keep coming to mind. i liken it to a powerful but slap dash frankenstein's monster of a tool.

i'm also fond of comparing lw to soviet war technology as opposed to the technologically advanced west.

maya may be more complicated to use at times but the amount of thought that went into the software to make it so open and overwhelmingly CONSISTENT is really amazing.

and all the money that it costs goes into its constant, consistent upgrade program and their truly cutting edge R&D.

you may think that maya is only a market leader because of brand recognition or marketing but i really really don't.

and it's not just a matter of feature by feature comparison on what lw has that maya has and viceversa... but it's also a question of how well such features are implemented.

but as for features:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. robust implementation of true NURBS (trims, blends, etc)
2. hierarchical subdivision surfaces (may not be your cupotea but that's a hell of a technological achievement).
3. hard and soft body dynamics.
4. robust history.
5. mental ray (a REYES renderer that will do a lot of the advanced stuff like micropoly displacement)... not to mention a system that can apparently swap renderers and host several at a time without blinking....
6. robust nonlinear animation system (that has been significantly updated in version 6... i've used version 4's nla extensively and as good as it was, the new features seem to be precisely the things i would have asked for)
7. very fast and flexible GUI with tons of screen draw options.
8. paint effects
9. 3d paint... it may be rudimentary but it's there and it works with all maya's mesh types... that's frickin' huge.
10. new to 6 is a hub to photoshop...
11. open shader architecture that can use and show many game shaders in native ui....
12. friendly and established path to renderman (a huge incentive for pro work)

and i can keep going.

if you're not impressed with 6, like i said, that's cool. i can see your point. but then again, for all the features and technology that goes into the deal 'behind the scenes', it doesn't cross my mind at all that it's not worth the money either though.

jin

p.s. hey james, at sony pictures, don't you have to work with maya? do you use lw there and what do you do there btw? just noticed your signature and was curious... thanks.

Danner
04-28-2004, 06:48 AM
Just curios, I've read several threads full of LW bashinb by Jin. Why is that?

Steve McRae
04-28-2004, 06:48 AM
i'm with Jin on this one

while I do the majority of my work in LW, I have come to appreciate Maya - it is very slick

jin choung
04-28-2004, 07:26 AM
hey danner,

well, what you would call bashing, i would call wide-eyed reality grasping....

it irks me that there seems to be some in the lw community who have apparently never used another app and yet hold that lw is infallible and perfect.

i am hoping that mine is simply a lone voice in the wilderness that tries to keep the 'rose tinted glasses' crowd, everything is hunkidori perfection (!) and lightwave, love it or leave it peoples, in check.

when i say that lw is comparatively primitive, you could read that as a slam, but to me, it is indeed a reflection of the actual state of things. when i say that it is not the epitome of software design, consistency and elegance, it is not a slam but what i think actually is the case.

and one thing you should know about me is that i am a real stickler for elegance and consistency and a purposeful sense of design.

when i compare lw to a soviet t-90, saying that it cannot be mistaken for an american M1-A1 abrams, it is in my opinion the state of the union and a reflection of the economic realities in play as well.... and this is not necessarily strictly a negative. its clunkiness is imo, a part of its charm.

when i criticize lightwave, it is a reflection of how much i love it. just like i would ruthless beat my own children with a crowbar until they learned to properly use the potty like a human being.

and also, if you keep telling your girlfriend that she's ugly, eventually, she'll take the hint, get her act together, and get prettier already.

lightwave also has a great many virtues and i am quick to defend assaults when i feel that it is unwarranted or simply unaffordable.

but i'm a big fan of reality; more i am not insecure.

sure, lw is what i paid for. it is my app. my app of choice. but that doesn't mean that i can't have eyes to see the chinks in the armor... ******* chinks....

i'm secure enough that i can admit that the app of my choice is not perfect.

and also, i want the developers to know that their user base is not ignorant of the virtues and advances in other apps, and in that knowledge, to hopefully apply what pressure i can toward some needed refinements.

also, i really want the developers themselves to not live in an island. to realize that lw does not exist in a vacuum. and even though they are only developing lw, that they should almost be as familiar with the other apps.

cuz some things are subjective. other things are not. if the other guy does something better and smarter and it happens to be a simple matter of knowing about it and not about fistfuls of cash - THEY SHOULD DO THAT.

read my criticisms. are my points not valid?

jin

lwaddict
04-28-2004, 10:52 AM
I sincerely hope that those mentioning the "Maya fur" aren't the same people who complain about buying up plugins and adding them to the feature set.

Maya got "Shave and a Haircut" support ala Joe Alter, which was originally geared towards Lightwave...trust me, I was on the beta force and there was something very powerful about that system.

Matter of fact, the system I still have, even though a beta...runs like stink. Very nice package.

Joe just couldn't keep up with the fluctuating SDK of the NT development team...alas, they must have made a deal with Worley and so, hair you got.

So...keep in mind that it's not Maya vs. Lightwave when it comes to hair systems...but Joe Alter vs. Worley. Write em an email and tell em all about it.

jamesl
04-28-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by jin choung


if you're not impressed with 6, like i said, that's cool. i can see your point. but then again, for all the features and technology that goes into the deal 'behind the scenes', it doesn't cross my mind at all that it's not worth the money either though.

jin

p.s. hey james, at sony pictures, don't you have to work with maya? do you use lw there and what do you do there btw? just noticed your signature and was curious... thanks.

I have used Maya since 1.0, and it definately has it's sweet spots. But I have problems with some areas that I mentioned, and I use LW almost exclusively for my own personal work, maybe because when I'm using Maya it 'feels' like work. I haven't used 6 yet but I hear they've upgraded the fur system (first time since the bought the technology from Santa Barbra Studios 6 years ago). I had to use Paint Effects both here and at Dreamworks and that is another 'almost-there' technology that is -not- consistent with the general Maya workflow. The fluid dynamics engine feels tacked on, perhaps we'll see that better integrated in 6. I dunno... when I hear people describe Maya as the panacea based on the 2 weeks they used the learning edition (not you, jin), I start to bristle. Really, both LW and Maya really shine when used together... Point Oven is a great example that allows one to push data both ways... models, dynamics, whatever. I prefer the LW renderer over even Mentalray because it's better integrated and more accessible... who cares if it's slower if my setup time is faster? An intelligent adaptive subdivision scheme would be nice, but heck... I'm not rendering 2k for film at home.

Here's a good analogy: Maya is the Corvette I keep in the garage, and it has plenty of bling that's largely justified in it's price, but when I need to just run out to the store for a pack of smokes, I hop in my Tercel (LW).

And no, Sony doesn't use LW... the parking lot is full of Corvettes. We do use Bodypaint, though.

j

Steve McRae
04-28-2004, 12:29 PM
I always go back to LW for my polygonal modeling and I am not sure if it is just that Maya's tool set is actually inferior in this department or if it is that I am dragging my heels at the workflow differences - any thoughts?

Beamtracer
04-28-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by jamesl
they [Newtek] told reporters that they refuse to compete with Avid and Final Cut Pro, and that there is no demand for HD. No demand for HD? It worries me when Newtek aims low. I can see their reasoning for pitching to the masses, as that's where the unit-sales come from, but I think that reasoning is flawed.

jin choung
04-28-2004, 05:19 PM
when it comes to polygonal modeling (including making SDS cages), lw definitely has an objective and empirical advantage:

check it - maya, even with the added tools that you can download for free from their website has maybe two or three pull down windows worth of modeling tools.

the ENTIRE APPLICATION OF MODELER is nothing BUT modeling tools.

this is not something that maya can't overcome by including a boatload of plugins but lw definitely has a natural advantage in this area.

not to mention that there is no notion of 'objects' in modeler and so you have much more immediate access to your verts and polys.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

as for VT, it's a weird beast that i would not even consider 'low end'....

hell, for low end, i have premiere on a 2.6ghz p4 and i get DV level video playing back with fx in realtime. final cut pro doesn't require a special add in card does it? and firewire is standard in all modern computers.

so in my estimation, vt misses out on the 'mass market' by a quarter mile. as with aura, vt is currently a system where i'm not quite sure who the heck they're aiming for.

jin