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View Full Version : LW8 Dynamics Test #2 - Breaking Glass



HowardM
04-21-2004, 08:35 PM
Click HERE (http://www.3dink.com/glass.mov)

Used C4 to shatter the glass and HardFX to breakit.
Notice the shards in the foreground, how they roll pretty realistically. :bounce:

hairy_llama
04-21-2004, 08:54 PM
sweet!
How is the simulation time for something like that?

pixym
04-21-2004, 08:56 PM
Nice test :)

GeorgeDittmar
04-21-2004, 09:03 PM
man i want my lw8 so i can just break some glass. lol or better yet a cube *drools*:D

HowardM
04-21-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by hairy_llama
sweet!
How is the simulation time for something like that?

Not bad, its a 25k poly object, self colliding....about 10-20 minutes to calculate 250 frames...
:)

pixym
04-21-2004, 09:14 PM
Hey Howard,

Go and have a sleep. You will play with LW 8 marvelous dynamics tomorrow :)

theo
04-21-2004, 09:19 PM
That is really nice Howard but the same thing can be done in LW7.5 with the C4:detonate plug.

HowardM
04-21-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by theo
That is really nice Howard but the same thing can be done in LW7.5 with the C4:detonate plug.

True!
But Im hoping, once I uncover the extra hidden goodies, that I can do more complex systems, like secondary collision.


Originally posted by pixym
Hey Howard,

Go and have a sleep. You will play with LW 8 marvelous dynamics tomorrow :)

Whats sleep? Ahh its early....you bored already? ;)

pauland
04-22-2004, 01:26 AM
You'd think someone that someone who took the time to model the glass would take better care of it. Clear that mess up right now young man!


..err very nice!

Paul

Carm3D
04-22-2004, 02:27 AM
That's sweet, Howard!

Would it be possible to use the whole glass until the collision point then dissolve that out and dissolve in the C-4'd glass for the shattering?

theo
04-22-2004, 06:41 AM
Carm- that's the way I have done and it works great- but like I said you can do this today with LW7.5.

HowardM
04-22-2004, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by Carm3D
That's sweet, Howard!

Would it be possible to use the whole glass until the collision point then dissolve that out and dissolve in the C-4'd glass for the shattering?

Of course! But that was just a quick test.

lede
04-22-2004, 08:53 AM
Nice test Howard! I can't wait to try smashing stuff my self. Did you have to break up the object yourself?

-Lee

HowardM
04-22-2004, 08:54 AM
Yes, used C4!
:)

Exper
04-22-2004, 09:18 AM
Howard... thanks for your tests!

For everyone interested about C4:
C4 : Object Destruction Tool for Lightwave
http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~goetsch/C4

lede
04-22-2004, 09:47 AM
Thanks! Now off to play with C4 and blow some of my models up:)

Howard, Please keep us posted on your testing. Exspecially for those of us who don't have 8 yet:( It's always good to see what others are doing though :)

-Lee

theo
04-22-2004, 02:26 PM
Lede and others- I don't know how many times someone has to say this- YOU DON"T NEED LW8 TO DO THIS!!! Howard did fantastic and I want him to keep it up for the unitiated but you guys can do this NOW. Geeesh!

lede
04-22-2004, 02:44 PM
theo, Calm down there buddy, there is no need to get upset. You are right we can do this today in LW7.5. I've been playing with this all morning.

Thanks Exper for provind the link to the C4 plugin. This is a really handy plugin to have.

-Lee

theo
04-22-2004, 03:02 PM
Sorry Lee. Didn't mean to make you think I was upset or anything because I am not- sometimes I get a little over-zealous in trying to make a point.

Zafar Iqbal
04-22-2004, 03:45 PM
Interesting test - thanks for posting.

Although i did noticed two strange lokking things:

1. The pieces slows down to a full stop (deaccelerate/ease out)

2. Some of the pieces came to rest at an odd angle/position - notice the larger piece near the buttom (among others). It's resting upright, while it should be laying down.

...now.. i hope this can be (farely easely) tweaked away.

Other than that.. looks great.

HowardM
04-22-2004, 03:56 PM
Thanks guys,
Its just come to my attention though, I was incorrect.
There is no REAL self collision...only a Sphere or Box shape.
Apparently though, you can use the verts of an object for collision detection from a collision object...just not self....that is why the shards nicely roll along their edges...the floor is a collision obj....but upon inspection closeup of the breakage, pieces fly straight through each other....so...basically there is no REAL self collision for Hard Bodies...god I hope this is fixed soon.

:mad: Im a little pissed here...basically these Dynamics are a hack as much as MD was, just dressed up a little better.

theo
04-22-2004, 04:03 PM
Im a little pissed here...basically these Dynamics are a hack as much as MD was, just dressed up a little better.

Man- if that's the case then what a bummer! I am getting sick of hacks.

Cageman
04-22-2004, 04:12 PM
Does anyone have the C4 documentation? The links at their site seem to be broken... :(

wacom
04-22-2004, 04:23 PM
So basicly you DO have to break an object into seperate layers to get secondary+ reactions? So a brick building would be hundreds of layers for secondayr+ reactions? WTF!

I hope there is at least a hack for this hack....

How does it work in other apps? Do you have to part things out or what?

Grrrrrr

wacom
04-22-2004, 04:26 PM
Is your glass made of single sided polys? Maybe the LW8 stuff only works with things that have a bounding box. I know I'm wrong on this...but I'm still hopeful...

HowardM
04-22-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by wacom
So basicly you DO have to break an object into seperate layers to get secondary+ reactions? So a brick building would be hundreds of layers for secondayr+ reactions? WTF!

I hope there is at least a hack for this hack....

How does it work in other apps? Do you have to part things out or what?

Grrrrrr

No, not exactly.
There is self collision of shapes in one layer...but its only Box or Sphere....not actually vertex or polygon based...soooo only the edges of the box or sphere are detected per piece....lame....
BUT, there is vertex based collision detection allowed with collision objs...so when the pieces hit the floor, they will react realistically.... :(
The problem with secondary action, such as the rest of a wall falling apart, is that it will ONLY work on parts that have been touched by a collision.....
SO If a collision sphere smashes the middle of a wall, and the 2 sides are left standing, the tops will not start to crumble because they arent even near where the collision made the hole.
Again, maybe theres a way, but i havent figured it out...without manually just hitting them with another collision to simulate natural weight.
oh well, guess nothing is push o the button!
;)

wacom
04-22-2004, 04:45 PM
Sorry to ask so many stupid questions- but are you saying that you'll have to add another event like a "gravity" event to the rest of the wall to get this to work? I guess it's like the demo video we saw with the wrecking ball and the brick walls where it left a comic hole in the wall but it didn't fall...

HowardM
04-22-2004, 04:53 PM
yep, just like the wrecking ball...there is no secondary shockwave or anything unless you manually set it up.
lets pray Ino listens to our cries!
:)

..by the way, whered did you find the Hanker for a Hunk a Cheese guy!?
;)

wacom
04-22-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by HowardM
yep, just like the wrecking ball...there is no secondary shockwave or anything unless you manually set it up.
lets pray Ino listens to our cries!
:)

..by the way, whered did you find the Hanker for a Hunk a Cheese guy!?
;)

"In think I should'a thunk'a I haner for a hunk'a..."

I can't remember where I got him from...

But here it is if you wish to have it...

At least I'll be able to set up a cheese wagon wheel in LW8 and have it roll...but I'd like to destroy it realisticly too...

riki
04-22-2004, 07:12 PM
Self Detection would be good. But I think the results of the quick glass test look convincing.

theo
04-22-2004, 08:35 PM
I was really hoping LW8 would dramatically advance the simulation system WITHIN Layout rather than having to beef up the simulation system with outside source plugs like the Dynamic Realities sim or RealFlow.

lunarcamel
04-22-2004, 09:09 PM
Doesn't break in a realistic way but fun to watch anyways.

Exper
04-23-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by lede
Thanks Exper for provind the link to the C4 plugin. This is a really handy plugin to have.You're welcome! ;)

I personally feel sad about all these LW8's HardDynamics weakness...
I was hoping in somthing really revolutionary cos this is one of the most "bell and whistle" feature of the new version!

Hoping NT will work hard and fast on this one...
but... maybe the manual will unveil something we're actually don't know about.

We'll see!

ACLOBO
04-23-2004, 04:00 AM
I was also a little disappointed at the revelations that some have had about the hard body dynamics. However, I look at it like this. We have a particle sysytem in Lightwave right? Does it do everything we would want it to do? THe answer is no. If you want a very robust system for particles, you go out and get something like "Napalm." We also have cloth/softbody dynamics and now "hardbody." Does this mean that just because they are in lightwave that they should be as good as DEDICATED programs that do cloth / hard simulations like a app such as Impact? Probably not. I think people are a little frustrated by their own unreasonable expectations. I myself was a little down on hearing about some of these complaints with the new "hardbody dynamics." However, I also realize that if you want to give a good impression of real effects, we have that ability in lightwave. If you want a really good, almost scientific realism to those effects such as fluid systems, you go out and get something like RealFlow....

Just my $0.02

-Adrian

ACLOBO
04-23-2004, 04:08 AM
After watching the animation from the original post, I think that it can be convincing enough. My only beef is with some of those shards resting on end and also the speed at which they come to rest - they have the Steve Austin running syndrom. :D

Also, going along with my previous post, you have to think of these included tools in lightwave as good enough for impressions of action. Really if you are going to examine these dynamics with a microscope, then you really need a dedicated app.

When I see stuff like this, I can think of it being used to great effect in conjunction with an animation that has it's focus on something that is doing all the "breaking." :D

-Adrian

pauland
04-23-2004, 04:21 AM
It's amazing how critical people can be for something that looks pretty convincing, but needs a few tweaks for perfection. I don't have LW8, but from the demos at NAB, individual motions can be played with to correct the odd stray behaviour.

If you were to have that as part of some other sequence, it would be seen and gone again in a moment and nobody would be criticising anything about it because nobody would be noticing odd minor details, they would be following the narrative not looking for tiny technical faults.

I guess if you want a solution closer to perfection, you'll need to spend a bit more money.

Does perfection matter? rarely. Both I and the kids sometimes watch films with rickety Special effects and often we don't care, because if the story is good I'll forgive the budget and the kids probably won't even notice.

I think that's a damn fine broken glass.

Paul

Ztreem
04-23-2004, 07:24 AM
Howard:
Shouldnīt work if you do every piece in a seperate layers. Than in layout you apply collisionFX to every part and set it to obj. Then it should self collide in a right manner, or ??
I hope it works!!! I can't test because I still waiting for my LW8.

Exper
04-23-2004, 07:25 AM
ACLOBO and pauland
I'm agree with you... perfection is not always necessary... and if you want perfection you can buy a dedicated app... ok!

I think that Ino is a great developer...
and I said "maybe the manual will unveil something we're actually don't know about"... EditFX (and even more)! ;)

I'll stay after all satisfied using LW for the next releases!

Bye.

HowardM
04-23-2004, 09:14 AM
Im doing more tests today, but I want to reiterate and clear somethign up:

I am not bashing 8, nor am I saying that it isnt an improvement.
Theres ALOT of goodness added to 8. I have only been playing with it a few days now, and again there isnt very good documentation or complex sample scenes...so there is a VERY good chance I am just not doing things right....yet!
;)

So, take my tests with a grain of salt.

There werent ANY hard bodies besides faking them in MD before.
Now at least there is something...and it does work. Just not as perfect as I would like it to be.....for now.

Talk to you guys soon!

Meaty
04-23-2004, 09:20 AM
looks good, but just like it needs a little more gravity in the scene and to be sped up, looks pretty damn good to me!

meanlebh
04-23-2004, 09:21 AM
I think that they glass looks great, yeah, a few tweaks could be done...but are they really necessary if it were part of an entire animation, and not a dedicated scene? personally I don't think so, it looks great.

One quick (hopefully) question though about the C4 plugin...I know that it doesn't work on a mac, but I tried to use the Destruct lscript for modeler, (which should work on both pc and mac if I am not mistaken???) but I keep getting an error...is there anyone out there who could maybe point me to some sort of answer...please.....I have tried searching on these forums as well as others, but have not had much luck....thank you for any help that you can give me.

lede
04-23-2004, 09:29 AM
meanlebh, I was getting an error also when I was working on a lot of my models. On their website they recomend that you use this with only closed models. Try just a primitive first and if you still get en error then E-Mail the creaters. I did and they we're very responsive.

-Lee

Emmanuel
04-23-2004, 09:41 AM
I find it annoying nonetheless.
People complained about SasLite, I was defending it, because "before there were NO fibers, now we have at least SOME", but the argument
looks used by now.
I really hoped that NT would stick to their intention to make things easier and more accessible, and although I would agree that hardbody dynamics probably isn't something You can do with a snip, the dials and buttons should be easily understandable.
Motion Designer still is a bad example of how You can a useful tool into some sort of black magic most users are too afraid to use.
NT made the hardbody implementation look like the "real thing" at least to me, with cool stuff like single layer objects.
Also other stuff like the IKB and that You would have to *bake* motions as a part of the workflow is something I don't accept when other apps are doing the best they can to make the animation task easier, faster, non-linear, non-destructible.
I imagine myself sitting there for hours calculating dynamics, baking, redoing, baking, tweaking, baking, redoing...no, thanks, I hate baking.
Baking is irreversible, and doesn't suit my workflow.
I guess its just a matter of time until other people find out where the dopesheet and the dopetrack are lacking, and this despite the fact that other apps have actually set standards that LW should reach, too, I mean, come on, when someone else has done the invention already, You can go ahead and just copy it, where's the problem, other apps do it all the time.
Do I have to bake simulations in Maya ? In C4D ?
This was the chance for NT to create a "hole in one" and get on par with the other apps in certain areas, but again, like with Splinamate,
Motion Designer etc, they just add a tool without going the whole way and make it work right from the start.
As far as I see it, LW8 is just more of the same old promises that never came true, and I will not upgrade at this point in time but rather wait for the next release and then make a decision.
With C4D and Maya in that price range, I won't buy into another disappointment so easily.
I love LW, no question, but somehow I can suddenly see the end of the road instead of an endless open horizon.
I understand NT is a small company.But so is Pixologic, so is Maxon, so is Luxology, so is pmG.
Unless they unify the app and make thing *truly* work together under the hood, I will wait and consider other choices.

HowardM
04-23-2004, 09:55 AM
well like i said, im not DynamicsGod (yet! ;) ) and there very well could be ways of doing the things I dont understand yet.
lets wait till SplineGod, Dan Ablan and a few other dynamics gurus show us whats possible.
Im good at tweaking the hell outta MD, but the new features are exactly that...new...and I doubt I can figure them all out in a few days.

all Im saying is dont rely 100% on my tests alone!
;)im wacking blindly at this new tool!

meanlebh
04-23-2004, 10:09 AM
Lee, thanks, yeah, I did try it on just a primative...and got the same error message....I will see what the creators have to say about it...thanks for the reply

Emmanuel
04-23-2004, 10:15 AM
Then they should at least make the documentation, demos and tutorials much more and more easy to understand.Whats the point in giving people the power but don't explain them how to use it ?

HowardM
04-23-2004, 10:24 AM
well we are recieving the prerelease, and as Chuck mentioned more tuts, demos, books, manuals will be coming soon once the release happens.
im holding back my agnst for now (maybe cuz ive got 8 and am not on your side of the fence, again Chuck and the Gang - GREAT PREEMPTIVE STRIKE! ;) ) ...but in a few months if there is no real dox, manuals, or even explanation of these new tools....well...lets just be calm and wait.
:)

lwaddict
04-23-2004, 11:40 AM
Emm,
You complain a lot for someone who hasn't so much as bought the release. LOL.

Really now, people are just cracking this thing open and here you are preaching about blah blah Maya, blah blah C4D, blah blah blah blah...

This is the same rant and banter that surrounds Newtek's (Actually, any software company's) development, release, and free patch giveaways...whining.

I've been to the C4D and Maya groups and guess what?
Whining.

No matter where you go it seems people can't wait to stare at their monitors and have it read their minds...do the work FOR them...do it whilst they sleep.

"Think outside the box" used to be a popular term amongst CGI artists and they would revel in their sharing of ideas and tricks...you just don't see it as much anymore. Now it's fading in the background to "whining". Too bad.

BTW: To the guy who did the broken glass trick...nice! You're definitely not trapped "inside the box".

HowardM
04-23-2004, 11:42 AM
thanks!
I think my foot is stuck tho!
:p

lwaddict
04-23-2004, 12:15 PM
Smear hypervoxels around the sole until it just slips out bro.

Cageman
04-23-2004, 12:30 PM
lwaddict:

You make a very good point here!!! I met a guy at school who claims to know 3DS quite well (though, Iīve never seen him using it, nor have I seen anything he has made). Well, I showed some stuff I made in Lightwave, 95%-100% keyframed, and he looked at it and said: "Well, in 3DS you just run a plugin and itīll do the work for ya". Then he walked away. :) The stuff I showed him and itīs results could never been made with a plugin, whatever sw you use (character animation). Iīm glad that I do know how to keyframe and the hard work that is needed to pull it off.

HowardM:

Nice test youīve done! Looks good and all, though I wonder how it would look if you speed it up, like how it should look in the real world? Because it looks like itīs slowmotion to me...

Keep posting!

lede
04-23-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by lwaddict
Smear hypervoxels around the sole until it just slips out bro.

Thats a good one! I'll have to remember to try that some time and see how it works.

-Lee

lwaddict
04-23-2004, 02:11 PM
By the way...

I've just ran through my tenth test of the hard body dynamics and finally got the rest of the bricks/glass/etc to fall after the fact...just as would the remaining building seconds after initial impact.

This was done with only two objects, the collision object, and a single layer building object...

It works folks...but it does take awhile for the calculations to kick into gear.

HowardM
04-23-2004, 02:16 PM
uh please explain and could ya please post a scn?!

HowardM
04-24-2004, 02:09 PM
Come on LWAddict!? You cant be a punk like that...hook us up!
Please?
;)

hazmat777
04-25-2004, 01:45 AM
I agree.

lwaddict-post a test render at least. We're dyin' over here!
:)

nerdyguy227
04-25-2004, 07:46 AM
That Was SOOOOOOOOOOOOO cool!!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

So do you have any renders on soft dynamics?

lwaddict
04-26-2004, 11:55 AM
My bad...
I'll try and post some of my tests later on.

I'm at my 9-5 right now and have to work on
a few biotech simulations before I can go back
to playing.

But...the hardbody dynamics do much more than
was shown in the videos, once you play around with em.
Can't wait for a manual or hell, even the Lightwave Ablan
book(s).

Will be testing softbody dynamics tonite.

So far, I love em. The program, and the Newtek techs.

HowardM
04-26-2004, 11:58 AM
dagnabit lwaddict, were not gonna let you off so easy! ;)
please tell me HOW you got secondary collision to work? that cant take more than 5 minutes to type.
a scene would be nice too!

Alliante
04-26-2004, 12:37 PM
lwaddict: Get thee back to indieclub.com :) (cheers!)





But...the hardbody dynamics do much more than
was shown in the videos, once you play around with em.
Can't wait for a manual or hell, even the Lightwave Ablan
book(s).

This is how it seems all of Lightwave's features are. There always seems to be hidden tricks and buttons (despite the huge manual in 7) that I'm constantly learning something new. I create a project, then I find out two days later that I could have done it more efficiently if I had done X and scrap the project to start again.

Then "real life" hits my studies *grumble*

Emmanuel
04-26-2004, 12:48 PM
Well, You can look at it in a romantic, Indiana Jones like way, discovering hidden treasures, finding golden idols etc, but I would just say "Poor documentation, lack of efficient tutorials and examples, overcomplicated and cryptic user interface" (Motion Designer, anyone ?)
Motion Designer has been there for years now, and it wasn't until recently that people such as HowardM found out how versatile it really is.
Blame it on the developers, really, cause if people had to find out like that how to record a video tape, no one would ever have bought a VCR.
I think they do a better job with their VT3 presentation so far.
Why not add a learning DVD/CD with each copy of LW instead of the manuals ?

lwaddict
04-26-2004, 03:00 PM
Therein lay the problem Emm.

You can't possibly explain every combination there is for every effect there is...

Too many people with the "gimme", "getme", and "tellme" and not enough people just swimming outside of the box. Nuf said.

If you'd just play with the software and let the ideas and patterns of "how to" flow.

OT: Hey Alliante! Long time no see...
:cool:
Yes, I really need to get back to indieclub. :D

Intuition
04-28-2004, 05:31 PM
Jeez, coincidence is awesome eh?

Lemme summarize.

I have used kaboom to blow up thngs before and have also used a few other plug ins to get similar effects.

Today all I am trying to do is set up a science beaker falling to the floor the same way your first animation is setup.

Now, as others have said in this post, that this is already possible in LW7.5 (though I have 8 on order like everyone else).

Well, What would you use in place of Hard_FX in LW7?

Howard, do you have a better step by step run down of how to achieve your glass breaking effect?

Is it simply...

Animate glass falling then on moment of impact replace object with broken up object and have physics do the rest?

Thanks in Advance.

Oh by the way my c4 has always asked for a newer version of L-Script...any thoughts?

HowardM
04-28-2004, 05:49 PM
Well, I basically broke up the object (C4 or Crackit).
Then manually animated it falling to floor, and let the collision take over...which you can easily do the same in 7.5 with those plugins....
actually in that scene, there is no replacement like you ask...but yet, that is what I would do...either use a mask to reveal the shattered version over 3-5 frames, upwards, to simulate the cracking shockwave...

good luck!

Intuition
04-28-2004, 05:51 PM
Ah, I see, the reval upwards is a good idea....I should fire up the after effects soon :D

Oh , I edited my last question in late.

Any suggestions regarding teh lscript update C4 asks for?

I think I am running 7.5c

Do I ave to downgrade?

HowardM
04-28-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Intuition
Ah, I see, the reval upwards is a good idea....I should fire up the after effects soon :D

Oh , I edited my last question in late.

Any suggestions regarding teh lscript update C4 asks for?

I think I am running 7.5c

Do I ave to downgrade?

dont do it in AE, do it with a null on the object in LW! :)

not sure about the Lscript problem...email Nick, Im sure he will help!

Intuition
04-28-2004, 06:04 PM
Oh I see, and thanks for the info....for some reason I actually was still on basic 7.5 since I forgot I had moved to a new computer station and didn't upgrade.

Everything is in place.

Thanks for the info.

I'll show you the results soon.

Null would make the reveal better as far as 3d is concerned. I'll give it a go.