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View Full Version : 3rd party renderers - Why doesnt Lightwave support them?



Ade
04-11-2004, 09:26 PM
A new one has just been seeded with vast improvements - Toxic (http://toxicengine.sourceforge.net/developers/roadmap.php)

Linux and OSX support happening too...!

Many of us ask for renderer improvemntments and Newtek CANT always give us what we want cause they concentrate on other things.

Maybe they should allow for suuport from Toxic, Brazil, Final render etc..


It seems Toxic is geered towards realistic renders for architecture like Lightscape once was.
Lightscape was once compatible with LW until it was broken in LW7.

I think 3rd party renderers is very important to Lightwave and more big studios would definately take notice to LW when it comes to Maya and xsi that cost more.

Toxic renders-

http://toxicengine.sourceforge.net/viewimage.php?filename=gallery/sponza2.png

http://toxicengine.sourceforge.net/viewimage.php?filename=gallery/jagdpanther.png

http://toxicengine.sourceforge.net/viewimage.php?filename=gallery/gally.png

Hervé
04-12-2004, 12:54 AM
I bet you this one renders like F_prime teknology.... refinment... but it looks like it has the same problem as F_prime does... Look the AA in bright areas.... suki suki....

:D

NT just needs to sit down with Steve Worley and have a serious talk....

Go F_prime GO !!:D ;)

Ade
04-12-2004, 01:26 AM
Herve' I feel Fprime is only fast cause they dont render everything. I mean the more support it will have , wont that start slowing things down?
Shaders, hypervoxels, caustics....Im sure in the end we all might just go back to lw renderer and use Fprime as a preview from which it was made...

I hope Im wrong!

Nemoid
04-12-2004, 02:15 AM
Well, FPrime works with a slightlly different technology than built in Lw renderer for sure. all the problems it has come from Lw issues,due to lw wau to work and addres rendering, not F Prime for sure.
I think that wien the SDK will be finally updated we will see Fprime grow to the levels we expect it to be, becoming a full new rendering solution for Lw. in the meantime, while enhancing Lw in time, NT have to open the app to third party rendetings engines too. its the best solution always.

Lw wasn't projected as an open app, because at the time it wasn't or didn't appeared necessary doing it that way, just because it had one of the best built in renderer in the field for sure. but now things have changed and solutions like Mental ray or Vray or Toxic and many other are really great for certain tasks.

This doen't mean that built in Lw rendering have not to be worked up a bit, though.
i think a general work on all these issues will make Lw better and better, an most important, more clever.

Aegis
04-12-2004, 03:49 AM
I feel Fprime is only fast cause they dont render everything.

I agree with Nemoid here - the FPrime renderer is obviously approaching its task from a different angle to LightWave's - there's almost no rendering hit from ray-tracing whereas LightWave slows considerably. Volumetrics are slow on pretty much any renderer right now but I'm sure Steve's solution will whip the existing LightWave one...

jamesl
04-12-2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Ade
Herve' I feel Fprime is only fast cause they dont render everything.
I hope Im wrong!

And you are! If Fprime renders global illumination 20 times faster than LW, there's no reason to believe that once it can deal with volumetrics, there won't be a similar speed advantage. Have you used it?

j

Hervé
04-12-2004, 11:03 PM
Aegis, I've seen a video (last year siggraph if I recall ) of a technology that renders HyperVoxels (with all raytrcing whistles) in real time... I meant even much faster than F_prime....:D

WizCraker
04-13-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
Aegis, I've seen a video (last year siggraph if I recall ) of a technology that renders HyperVoxels (with all raytrcing whistles) in real time... I meant even much faster than F_prime....:D

Yeah it is called using Volumetric Rendering Cards which are being used in the medical field. VolumePro from TeraRecon (http://www.terarecon.com/products/volumepro_prod.html) as an example.

Lightwolf
04-13-2004, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
And you are! If Fprime renders global illumination 20 times faster than LW, there's no reason to believe that once it can deal with volumetrics, there won't be a similar speed advantage. Have you used it?j
I doubt that volumetrics will speed up as much, most of the volumetric rendering happens inside the volumetric plugin, so FPrime has no way of speeding that stuff up.
I'm currently writing a volumetric for LW, and found that (for my test scene), it needs around 300 density samples per pixel, then (non-optimized), each of those samples needs to be illuminated (which results in one raytracing call per light per sample which FPrime _could_ intercept and replace if the SDK will allow it).
Then I need to raymarch _again_ per sample to every light to allow for self-shadowing, which results in roughly another 100 density samples per original sample per light.
So you end up with around 300xlights raytracing calls, and 300x100xlights volumetric density evaluations. The latter is something FPrime can't affect.
The only thing FPrime _could_ do is tell the volumetric to use larger strides for raymarching, which in turn means less samples, and then refine them later on. I'm not sure of what the result will be like though.
Oh, the volumetric pipeline I mentioned here is the most naive and unoptimized variant, there are smarter ways to do things, but you get the picture :)
Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
04-13-2004, 05:07 AM
Hey, Mike, while you're at it, program us a particle hardware renderer ala JetStream :D

LW Sprites in HV are still waaaaaay to slow.

Lightwolf
04-13-2004, 05:11 AM
Hi Red...

Well ... I think that goes beyond my current skills :) And what I'm hacking together I need for the current project I'm on so...

My current goal is to beat Ogo Taiki in terms of speed (I have around 2800 frames of clouds to render in 2K).
And even hiring ResPower at a very special price will completely bust my budget...

Cheers,
Mike

pixelinfected
04-13-2004, 06:59 AM
the opening to the new render engines is good, especially for renderman, which an industry standard from years, it can manage surface and tons of dectail with easely and not heavy approach.

a good and hard coded renderman addition, which is not a merely exporter, but a good implemetation, in all lw part could be a breakway on actual lw pipeline for the movie.

i use a lot renderman in past with application called solidThinking under Next Step, and renderman rock, also if at that time i used it on pentium 100 mhz, where renderman handle million of polydectails and render hundred and hundred times faster than every other application on that hardware.

Ade
04-13-2004, 09:49 AM
solidthinking was from next? gee!

Im starting to take a look at it now, its a nurb modeller, how do u rate it against rhino?

pixelinfected
04-13-2004, 10:01 AM
i use it under Next Step for three years, be cause original developer was my old friend, actually he work for Pixar.

i use a bit new version under windows, be cause i was in beta programs for a period of some months.

Actually i check sometimes it to see new features and its evolution, and i think is a good and strong application, is different from rhino, be cause they have different target.

If you are going to buy one or other i suggest to download demo of both and try to understand what application you prefer, and what software is better for your business.

the advantage of solid is not only a good and long developing, but also that is avaible under win and mac platform, which is a good bonus.
Have a nice day.
Carlo

cgolchert
04-13-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Lightscape was once compatible with LW until it was broken in LW7.


No it didn't. Lightscaped baked the lighting info into a file then the shader read that. That is closer to an image map than another render engine.

And I wouldn't say that LW7 broke it. Newtek expanded LW with version 6.0 and a competing company didn't update their plugin.

Exception
04-19-2004, 06:20 AM
And Lightscape still works with Lightwave, you just have to know how. Hell even my Avatar has been rendered using Lightscape *g*

Ade
04-19-2004, 07:37 AM
mac lightscape or pc?