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View Full Version : REVOLUTIONS - changed my mind again....



jin choung
04-06-2004, 04:12 PM
howdy fellows,

well, first time i saw matrix revolutions, i kinda liked it. got caught up in the anticipation. and i liked that it felt smaller and less 'balls to the walls', 'everything and the kitchen sink' than reloaded.

but upon retrospect, i didn't believe it made a whole lot of sense. and it failed to answer many of the most provocative questions raised by the first two movies. it felt like a very poor, rushed conclusion.

the first movie was fantastic by providing so many plausible answers to the question WHY. the second movie proved almost to be an antithesis by flipping the messiah motif on its head and calling it all a lie while also posing question after endless question.

and the third movie seemed to dodge the big questions and just tack on a deus ex machina to boot... bring about peace between two zero sum parties by tacking on an artificial third.

and to make that false solution worse, it seemed very like an allegory about situations in the middle east... especially since the machine city ZERO ONE (which kind of sounds like ZION too) is actually IN the middle east!!! (probably iraq!)

BUT

upon rewatching the movie on DVD, i think that it is actually quite a good and fitting conclusion to a really mind blowing series. i will go on to note issues that i thought were problems and what i now realize to not be problems at all. it goes without saying that the following is nothing BUT spoilers....

1. after watching 'the second renaissance' in the animatrix, i KNEW that what the ending would be about was not the triumph of man over machines but an ultimate peace between the two. i thought that was an AWESOME IDEA!!! how unexpected considering the first film.

but i was HUUUUUUUUUGELY disappointed that the answer turned out to be an apparent deus ex machina of having a third villain that threatened everybody and a peace brokered on that....

well that's GREAT! all we need is aliens to invade israel and we're good to go!

BUT

on a deeper level beyond the plot, smith is almost literally satan... which means NEMESIS. he is the enemy... everyone's enemy. and it turns out that solution has been not to fight but to give in. not to win but lose. not to kill your enemy but surrender yourself.

and this is a message that has much in common from buddhism to christianity and is the message of pacifists like ghandi and martin luther king.

not new but profound nonetheless.

smith is not just an artificial third but his struggle with neo is a MICROCOSM of the larger situation. that sits well with me.

i still don't get what happens in the PLOT so that smith's assimilation of neo results in his destruction but since a 'residual' of the assimilated is present in smith and is foreshadowed several times, i'm sure it's just something i'm missing.

2. i think consequences of what happens to the matrix AFTER revolutions is a bit more clear to me now after having seen THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST!

so if jesus achieved final victory over evil at the cross, it can be construed the equivalent event happens at the conclusion of revolutions... especially considering the quote, 'it is done.'

but as the world will go on until the second coming, perhaps the matrix will continue in its way in a similar fashion?

... to be continued... i'm getting tired....

jin

Sastira
04-06-2004, 04:18 PM
Remember when the oracle said that Smith is Neo's opposite, his inverse, the equation trying to balance itself out..?

Well... what happens when you balance an equation.

Neo = 1
Smith = -1
Neo + Smith = 0
0 = undefined hence nothinginess.

When Smith assimilated Neo, he balanced the equation and destroyed himself.

At least.. that is what I think... ;) :D

ddho1981
04-06-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Sastira
Remember when the oracle said that Smith is Neo's opposite, his inverse, the equation trying to balance itself out..?

Well... what happens when you balance an equation.

Neo = 1
Smith = -1
Neo + Smith = 0
0 = undefined hence nothinginess.

When Smith assimilated Neo, he balanced the equation and destroyed himself.

At least.. that is what I think... ;) :D

makes sense to me . . . i thought revolutions was pretty good. though i wanted more kung fu :) . . . which is why i liked reloaded . . . lots of kung fu. my take on the trilogy:

matrix 1 - very very cool. conceptually, it was very original and therefore when questions were being answered, and all the funkiness started making sense, we all get that feeling of "oohhhh....THAT'S what's going on." it was a very incredible notion . . .

matrix 2: now that we know what's going on, the time spent in the matrix has sort of lost its novelty, so we'll make up for it with massive kung fu and cool special effects. and while we're at it, we'll throw in some more questions to try to make it seem more philosophical than it actually is. the result: a pretty neat action flick with little plot excitement . . . (which to be honest, is all i expected)

matrix 3: okay, now we can end this thing, so we'll do it with way cool special effects with robots and flying things . . . meanwhile, since the matrix-world has lost its novelty, we'll make neo fly around more and fight with smith a la dragon ball Z--btw, since all our extras are at zion, everyone in the matrix-world will now become smith. while it was a decent movie, and they answered the half-assed questions they came up with, still wasn't nearly as profound and interesting plot-wise as the first, and quite honestly--how could it be? the most interesting thing about the matrix WAS the idea of the matrix--once that was out of the bag, they rest is just icing. i still need to watch this one again as i've only seen it once (when it came out) and don't remember it all too well..... though i thought it was stupid how trinity died....couldn't she have gone out in blazing action? to give such a strong character a weak death seems like a cop-out to me..... but i digress.

hrgiger
04-06-2004, 05:02 PM
Actually, the 1 and 0 idea doesn't pan out in the world of the matrix (where everything is based off of 1's and O's of machine language) when you consider that 1 is a high digital circuit (on) and 0 is a low digital circuit(off). 0 doesn't necessarily equate to nothingness. It depends on what kind of logic gate you're talking about (and gate, or gate, nand gate, nor gate, etc.....)

Ok, I'm just showing off because I'm taking digital circuitry this semester in school...

ddho1981
04-06-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Actually, the 1 and 0 idea doesn't pan out in the world of the matrix (where everything is based off of 1's and O's of machine language) when you consider that 1 is a high digital circuit (on) and 0 is a low digital circuit(off). 0 doesn't necessarily equate to nothingness. It depends on what kind of logic gate you're talking about (and gate, or gate, nand gate, nor gate, etc.....)

Ok, I'm just showing off because I'm taking digital circuitry this semester in school...

BUT isn't agent smith a program? which is mathematically based? and therefore 0 DOES equate to nothing? i'm not a programmer so i really have no idea what i'm talking about.... just taking a stab in the dark here.

Sastira
04-06-2004, 05:08 PM
Yes.. smith is a program.

In programming, 0 = NULL

Your CPU is based on digital circuitry of 0 and 1, but it still does math, right?

Hmm..

Titus
04-06-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Sastira
Well... what happens when you balance an equation.

Neo = 1
Smith = -1
Neo + Smith = 0
0 = undefined hence nothinginess.

When Smith assimilated Neo, he balanced the equation and destroyed himself.

At least.. that is what I think... ;) :D

That doesn't makes sense to me. When two oppsites colide, both should be destroyed. This is the idea of matter hitting anti-matter, both are converted into energy.

I hate Revolutions, I think the directors wasted a good opportunity to tell a good story after the first part. The VFX are amazing, though.

Sastira
04-06-2004, 05:47 PM
I agree that both should be destroyed, but Neo had something that Smith did not...

Neo was a human being... he existed in both the "Real" world and in the "matrix".. smith only existed in the matrix.

So smith was the opposite of Neo's conciousness, not of Neo's whole.

hrgiger
04-06-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Sastira
Yes.. smith is a program.

In programming, 0 = NULL

Your CPU is based on digital circuitry of 0 and 1, but it still does math, right?

Hmm..

Well, if you want to speak of it in programming terms, 0 can be anything you declare it to be.

0=1

0=5024

0=Eugene

and so on....

T-Light
04-06-2004, 09:04 PM
The matrix was hardware AI right?

Therefore the Matrix hardware is based on synapse weights, not zero's and one's.

Heavy.

Gettit, Heavy, weights, see what I did there?

Can't believe I'm posting this. I'm not even into the Matrix :p

NanoGator
04-06-2004, 09:25 PM
I had a different take on it. It was along the lines of the Oracle using Smith and Neo as pawns to mess with the Architect. The Arch and the Ora had differing views on how to run the Matrix, and she put a plan into motion that would basically force the machines and the humans to work together. I enjoyed it with that interpretation.

hrgiger
04-06-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by T-Light
The matrix was hardware AI right?

Therefore the Matrix hardware is based on synapse weights, not zero's and one's.



Not much difference. Our own brain synapses's work on electrical signals. Same thing, a synapse is either firing (1) or not (0).
Just remember what powered the machines in the first place....

Karmacop
04-06-2004, 09:59 PM
Reloaded was one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

Revolutions is an alright movie with a great end (that last 5 minutes) to the whole concept.

I think it's a great story but written badly. The meaning behind it all is, as far as I see it, that humans are inherently bad and aren't happy unless they have complete power, and will stop of nothing to get it.

The robots helped the human and wanted to be equals; the humans brought violence to the robot protests

The robots moved away to their own country and made their own industries; the humans brought on trade embargos and war

The robots but the humans in a perfect virtual world but the humans kept waking up, so the robots gave them a virtual world they'd be "happy with"; the humans rebel to free all humans

The robots want equality, the humans want power.

Sastira
04-06-2004, 10:04 PM
0 is a constant, not a variable.

TripD
04-06-2004, 10:41 PM
Hey.... After listening to these posts it dawned on me that I can't say that I know if Smith existed after Neo's demise or not. Was he seen after the big fight?

Sastira, I'm guessing that you mean that 0 is undefined in the computer sense of the word, because I keep thinking that you mean 'any number divided by zero is undefined' (mathematical definition). Heh, sorry, was just bugged by that.

NanoGator
04-06-2004, 10:44 PM
Anything divided by 0 is infinity. There, problem solved. :D

T-Light
04-06-2004, 10:49 PM
"Same thing, a synapse is either firing (1) or not (0). " HRGiger

Honestly Mr Giger, and you a hardworking programming student :D

Seriously, one programmer to another, I used to have an interest in AI. The brain (and AI) is a weighted process, You're right to say it's firing(1) or not (0), but the output (taking 1's and 0's as examples) might give you 0.000456783.

Which in this case would allow Mr Smith to absorb Mr Neo as a fraction of a percentage. :)

NanoGator
04-06-2004, 10:53 PM
Heh. If i run this conversation through Bablefish, is it going to spit out the word "bull****"?

T-Light
04-06-2004, 10:57 PM
You're not wrong Nonogator,

I'm sure that was one of the word's bandied about when we went to see 'Reloaded'

Sorry guys, I really liked the first one, quite enjoyed for the final, hated 'Reloaded' with a passion.

NanoGator
04-06-2004, 11:01 PM
Reloaded was pretty lame. It was also totally ecipsed by T3. Both had substantial car chase scenes. T3 had the whole suspense and satisfaction thing going for it, Reloaded had the opposite. heh.

Well I probably shouldn't go flinging opinions around like that. I just really enjoyed watching the TX go CRUNCH during the crane incident.

T-Light
04-06-2004, 11:06 PM
Sorry old man, Meant to say NanoGator not of course NonoGator.
I appologise. :)

It's very late on this side of the pond. Can see daylight outside, Trees, Clouds, a road and a couple of cars. Reality check.

Night night all. :o

NanoGator
04-06-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by T-Light
Sorry old man, Meant to say NanoGator not of course NonoGator.
I appologise. :)

It's very late on this side of the pond. Can see daylight outside, Trees, Clouds, a road and a couple of cars. Reality check.

Night night all. :o

heheh no worries man. T'is only a typo. I do it all the time. I once spent on hour on IRC not realizing my nickname was "NanoGoat".

T-Light
04-06-2004, 11:16 PM
:D

Got to leave now, Sh*t, just had dejavoo, a black cat passed by the study, then another. What does it all mean?

Oh yes, we have two black cats. :p
G'night.

kevinmcpoland
04-07-2004, 01:19 AM
Okay, I am a Matrix fan (albeit not extreme), and whilst I liked all 3 movies for their effects etc etc, I actually didn't think the end was very good (perhaps too deep for me).

I like things tidied up, and too many directors seem to cop out of finishing the story (I always like a story to have a beginning, middle and end, with all loose ends tidied up, after all, the director is telling the story), so...

1. Any views what the end is? Such as, yes there is now peace with the machines, but does that mean that the humans were allowed to go back to the top world and safely leave Zion?

2. And if so, the machine world needs humans (I believe Neo said this), so does the machine then release ALL the humans in the "containment" chambers which Neo escaped from?

3. What actually happened to Neo? Did he die, or has he ascended type thing?

4. Is it similar to Babylon 5, in that it was ultimately just about a fight between the Oracle (good) - (Vorlons) and the Architect (bad) - (Spiders)?

5. And if so, as both the Oracle and the Architect are just programs, what happens to them now? Do they start all over again (But they can't, because there is now peace with the humans and machines...?)

10 Enslave Humans
20 Free some humans
30 Have surreal fights with humans
40 Have humans kill rogue program
50 Live in peace for a while
60 Return to 10.....??

See, I'm a bit left wanting some answers.....

Sorry folks, just my outlook,

Kevin McPoland

Matt
04-07-2004, 01:39 AM
I was bothered until I saw the massive mech vs sentinel fight and thought, who cares, look at those guns!!!! :)

jin choung
04-07-2004, 01:47 AM
hmmm,

i get the feeling that:

- ARCHITECT: logic. order. agent of status quo.
- ORACLE: intuition. chaos. agent of change.

seems to be an eastern yin/yang relationship as opposed to a western good v. evil one.

ahhh, i actually like and understand the idea of 1 and -1 making 0. that does make sense to me and i think the narrative exposition would support such an interpretation as text. and i think that my symbolic reading can be construed to be the subtextual meaning underneath?

in as much as there is a shot in 'neo vision' AFTER he is dead, showing him to be engulfed in blinding light as opposed to dead blackness, and considering the oracles words on the matter, i don't think neo's dead.

very very much back to a christ symbolism... which is so surprising AGAIN because reloaded seemed to recant everything! i think this is one of the most interesting things about the series...

- matrix: straight out christ allegory with john the baptist & judas
- reloaded: christ construct is a lie of the machines.
- revolutions: surpasses the christ construct allowed by the machines and becomes genuine....

there's a great infusion of eastern religious ideas too but other than the yin/yang thing between many characters, i must still continue processing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what now?

- those who ask what the matrix is, have a sense of the artifice and want to be free and freed per the agreement. the oracle specifically asks about those who WANT to be freed. we can assume that there are many who DON'T WANT TO BE FREED!

- this is where i think it will become a christian allegory again... you have the damned who don't want to be saved and then legions of 'enlightened' who try to show the light.

- 'topside', i would imagine that this will be an imagining of 'a new heaven and a new earth'.

- and if they clean up the atmospheric sludge, perhaps there will be no need for copper tops anymore... although since the machines have not been able to do so for the hundreds of years up to the story's present, perhaps this is not possible.

jin

MorituriMax
04-07-2004, 02:05 AM
What I didn't like about parts two and three was the slowing down of all the kung fu action.

In the 1st part, the kung fu was pretty nifty to watch because it didn't look rehearsed and it got really really fast.

In the 2nd and even moreso in the 3rd part, all the kung fu action was a LOTTTTTT slower and everything looked choreographed. It just looked like they were moving through a practiced set of pre ordered moves.

That isn't what makes good kung fu choreography. What makes it look good is. 1. it's lightning fast and 2. it looks spontaneous..

overall the kung fu sequences looked sterile.

Sigh.. good set of movies though..

dualboot
04-07-2004, 03:12 AM
I'm still having nightmares from Reloaded and Revolutions.
In history of worst movies these two will have their rightfully deserved place with Reloaded in front.

They shouldn't have been released to public and originals should have been burnt.

Even if there wasn't Matrix the two would hard to watch.

Dialogues and monologues in Reloaded should be treated as an crime act.

Morpheus's speech and Larry's acting inside the Cathedral will be remembered as one of the worst roles in history of cinematography (very close to Richard Crenna in Rambo: first Blood).

Final battle's ending in Zion when they stand with guns and pylons infront of Cathedrale entrance just brought laughing tears to my eyes. Incredible.


1.Can someone explain: where does Trinity jump to escaping Agents from building in Reloaded(in her certain death)?

2.Why don't they use shotguns against Agents(since they have choice)

----

jin choung
04-07-2004, 03:40 AM
lol,

yah, that speech in zion was horrible. they used the take where fish was addressing the crowd with his actual unamplified voice... and because of that, he had no dynamic range in delivery! everything was at the top of his lungs!

horrible decision. the braveheart speech would have been horrible too if he had to really speak as if to be heard by a thousand people!

i listened to the actual words though and it COULD HAVE BEEN a really moving speech if it was delivered better. it's one of those scenes that i keep trying to direct after the fact as i watch it....

as for trinity,

i think the situation was simply to imply that there was nowhere else to go so might as well jump? yah, actually, that doesn't make much sense....

as for the shotgun...

HAHAHAHA! now that would be awesome... that wouldn't be BULLET TIME, that would be PELLET TIME (!!!!) accelerated many times faster than simple bullets... they'd have duck and weave around hundreds of pellets! that would truly have taken it to the next level...

much more advanced than their 'virtual cinematography'...

what a pretentious title for plain ol CGI....

jin

ddho1981
04-07-2004, 06:12 AM
in regards to kung fu . . . i give these guys a little credit...it was entertaining enough. but really, how much lightning fastness and smooth fighting can you expect from keanu and the gang after only training a few months??? it's not like they're jackie chan or jet li.... btw, jet li would have made a bad-*** agent. of course then i wouldn't be able to watch the movie knowing that he'd be defeated by keanu reeves....the whole notion just wouldn't sit well.

Sastira
04-07-2004, 06:29 AM
"- and if they clean up the atmospheric sludge, perhaps there will be no need for copper tops anymore... although since the machines have not been able to do so for the hundreds of years up to the story's present, perhaps this is not possible."

The machines haven't TRIED to clean up the atmosphere... why would they? They have all the energy they could ever need.

As far as Trin jumping out of the window, what possible reason would there be that would result in her death? In the animatrix: final flight of the osiris, the girl jumps from the top of a building, through a TON of huge beams, and lands safely, although she DOES create a badass shockwave. Trinity is like #3 in the matrix (neo, morpheous, trin) as far as ability goes. A drop of that height would be simple for her, had she not been shot.

TSpyrison
04-07-2004, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by jin choung

HAHAHAHA! now that would be awesome... that wouldn't be BULLET TIME, that would be PELLET TIME (!!!!) accelerated many times faster than simple bullets... they'd have duck and weave around hundreds of pellets! that would truly have taken it to the next level...



That sounds like a challenge for someone to take up with lightwave..

Just for giggles :D

CB_3D
04-07-2004, 07:21 AM
FX are top in Revolutions, but the story is even thinner than Reloaded.

Too much low level thievery from classic stories and mythologies, which could actually have resulted in an interesting trilogy if the dramatic elements hadn´t been executed so badly. The lovescene, the speech in the cave, Trins death scene, Oracle endlessly blabbering about nothing...oh man, that wasn´t bad acting! It wasn´t acting at all!

As to the Kung Fu, Jet Li would have kicked Neos butt, no doubt!!:D It felt less natural in all aspects, what else would you expect from 3d puppets fighting the Dragonball battle?! Bigger is better was their only credo.

Visually it IS a feast, though, and for that alone i love to see and re-see the whole thing from time to time.

Red_Oddity
04-07-2004, 07:46 AM
Matrix 1 = Cult classic
Matrix 2 & 3 = rollercoaster ride

my €0.02

jin choung
04-07-2004, 09:01 AM
ah,

good point about trinity falling...

so her jumping out would have made perfect sense. i and others have read it as perhaps a futile attempt at elongating her life for the few moments it would take to hit earth but yup... she coulda made it with a kickass shockwave....

been thinking about the shotgun thing too... they might be able to just step out of the path altogether and then you'd be worse off cuz you can't get your next shot off as quick....

right right,

the architect is the guy trying to balance the equations.

seems to riff on the notion that every action has an equal and opposite reaction... that every entity creates its diametric opposite.

truly that every yin must have yang. and perhaps the only possible peace is the surrender of self unto nothingness = null = 0... nirvana.

and there's the eastern motif.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'did you know?'

'no. oh no. but i believed.'

hmmmm.... wonder what that's trying to say... that there is value in blind faith? and perhaps that is forgivable if we resemantize it to HOPE? must ponder that....

jin

thekho
04-07-2004, 09:20 AM
I was very, very disappointed with the story (Revolutions) which was really crap but i loved the dock battles, they were so F**KIN AMAZING!!!

I prefer the Matrix and Matrix Reloaded cos their stories were better.

MorituriMax
04-07-2004, 11:02 PM
I expected the same level of kungfuness as the 1st one.. surely they could have at least maintained the level they attained in part 1... I really liked the kung fu in the 1st one..

Hervé
04-07-2004, 11:44 PM
I really, but really cant take that kind of movies anymore.... well I think I am getting old, that's it ! when I was young I would have jump in that kind of stuff right away, but not anymore (when I was young , nothing was made for young people, except music...) ... sniff sniff.... in a sense it's sad to discover I watch absolutly nothing entertaining anymore... just 10 min. news every night...

Sometimes I feel like my father, and I hate that... ah well... soon time to retire....:D

petermark
04-08-2004, 07:54 AM
Zion is NOT in Iraq!! It's in Israel - in Jerusalem.

Psalm 48
"2 It is beautiful in its loftiness,
the joy of the whole earth.
Like the utmost heights of Zaphon [1] is Mount Zion,
the [2] city of the Great King. "

It is not in the Old City of Jerusalem anymore, but back in the day it was the City of David - the core of Jerusalem.

ddho1981
04-08-2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by MorituriMax
I expected the same level of kungfuness as the 1st one.. surely they could have at least maintained the level they attained in part 1... I really liked the kung fu in the 1st one..

i'm assuming you're referring particularly to reloaded, since in revolutions, there was virtually no kung fu at all - except for the end which was overshadowed by, in my opinion, overdone special effects in the final showdown between neo and smith. But realize that in matrix 1 they only had one on one kungfu, which is less difficult to pull off than a complex scene where there's multiple kung-fu'ers.... choreography gets a lot more complex and i wouldn't expect these guys to really get it as crisp and clean as a one-on-one fight. my 2 cents.

jin choung
04-08-2004, 08:08 AM
actually,

there is no indication whatsoever about the whereabouts of the zion in THE MOVIES.

i'm talking about ZERO ONE, the machine city.... in the animatrix, it is said to be located in the 'cradle of civilization' and i think that refers to the area abouts iraq....

jin

meshmaster
04-08-2004, 10:06 AM
could be anywhere really...

Sastira
04-08-2004, 12:31 PM
zero one is located in the cradle of civilization, between the tigris and euphrates rivers, located near syria and iraq.

Watch the animatrix, they tell you in "the renaissance" where it is.

erk
04-08-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by petermark
Zion is NOT in Iraq!! It's in Israel - in Jerusalem.

Psalm 48
"2 It is beautiful in its loftiness,
the joy of the whole earth.
Like the utmost heights of Zaphon [1] is Mount Zion,
the [2] city of the Great King. "

It is not in the Old City of Jerusalem anymore, but back in the day it was the City of David - the core of Jerusalem. I sort of thought they were talking about Zion the Rastafarian "Promised Land" which was supposed to be in Ethiopia, it seemed to have more of that feel than a Zionist thing. There was some pretty obvious Dredlocks in the movie.

/edit One peve I had with the movie was the fight in the rain. I felt all the water/rain got in the way of showing the fantastic job they did with the sets/VFX, and in the end detracted from the spectical.

BTW. Anyone else think that the Matrix green tint to the lighting was a lot stronger than the first movie?

JCG
04-08-2004, 03:41 PM
For me, the scene in Revolutions where they break through the clouds was worth the ticket.

When I saw that I could just think, "Oh wow! If I could live beyond the cloud layer and see that sky every day, then everything would be right with the world!"

Then I thought, "...wait a minute!"

Kuzey
04-08-2004, 07:33 PM
Matrix 2 and 3 would have been a lot better if it wasn't overloaded with religious symbolism...they could have spent all that energy developing the story.
That and Will Smith's wife was a bad casting choice...she just didn't fit the film at all.
Having said that...the films were visually enjoyable. Much better than lord of the rings 2 & 3, which seemed like a remake of the wizard of oz than some original masterpiece people made it out to be!!

Kuzey

jin choung
04-09-2004, 03:43 AM
actually,

i really liked the religious, philosophical, metaphysical underpinnings of the whole deal. i think that's what really makes the first matrix a really different movie for me.

it taps into a universal alienation and provides plausible (at least for the duration of the movie) explanations and made people think and talk about things that they generally don't.

unbelievable for a popcorn flick.

would like a textbook concerning everything they were going for though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ah... another way to look at the smith v. neo conflict is as the incarnation of what happens when you have an unstoppable force encounter an immovable object.

and the resolution hints at some kind of universal axiom perhaps?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i thought the kung fu in the first one was horrible... it looked SLLLllllllllooooooooooow as hell... and keanu was unnaturally stiff and ramrod straight (even more than usual) cuz he was still too close to his neck trauma accident.

carrie ann ends up grabbing some poses that just look comical and ends up walking like a duck at one point....


the kung fu in the second one though was AWESOME! burly brawl was non stop and i was really impressed how much of that was actually keannu. and the pacing in the chatteau battle was perfect. but along with the freeway chase, ended up being just waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much action.. there really is such a thing.

third one was a really good example of paying off neo as superman.... i liked the fight scenes...

considering that none of these guys are jet li, i think they pulled off an admirable feat.

jin

TSpyrison
04-09-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by jin choung

considering that none of these guys are jet li, i think they pulled off an admirable feat.

jin

Yea, But if i remember right, they did go through alot of kung fu training. At least 6 months if I remember correctly from the special features disk.. I think they did pretty good for not being lifelong kung fu masters or something


:D

sadkkf
04-09-2004, 11:55 AM
I'll probably get b****-slapped for saying this, but I thought The Thirteenth Floor was everything The Matrix should have been. :eek: :D

erk
04-09-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by sadkkf
I'll probably get b****-slapped for saying this, but I thought The Thirteenth Floor was everything The Matrix should have been. :eek: :D Yeah, it had a good story idea, but it wasn't an action movie which is what the Matrix is full of, and attracts most of it's audience.

theo
04-10-2004, 12:21 AM
Matrix 3 is a total piece of crap.

The producers of this type of genre are just not making movies that hold my interest any more. I am afraid that if Hollywood and the so-called high-level visual effects shops don't get their act together and start producing a more mature CG-enhanced poduct the public may start avoiding this type of genre altogether.

Who the heck wants to pay $8.50 just to see a bunch of stupid robots or monsters in whatever shape or size (they all just mesh together after a while) try to kill humans. Geesh- it's all getting so predictable. Its like a 3D stunt show or something anymore- this is not compelling story telling, which is what movies are about.

Jin- In my opinion the martial arts in Matrix 2 just got to be too boring and drawn out. Also- I like martial arts scenes like the next guy but I cannot get into Jet Li because his acting is just too cartoonish. Unfortunately most martial art based films fall flat to me because of the cartoon quality. I did really enjoy Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon which had cartoonish fighting but was backed up with visual splendor and a great story.

jin choung
04-10-2004, 01:55 AM
hey theo,

that's cool. i definitely think the action in reloaded was too drawn out too. but i appreciated the individual sequences if not the gestalt whole.

i think after the first movie, the movies don't succeed as WHOLES but in nifty bits and pieces that can be appreciated for technical achievement and perhaps as study aids.

i had great hope for the trilogy but there's no denying that they can't be considered GREAT EXAMPLES OF CINEMA.

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having said that though, i present the results of some studying that i did:

1.
there is only causality. fatalism. predetermination. there is no choice. INEVITABILITY, PROPHECY, KARMA and DESTINY.

these are qualities associated with the MACHINES... even the benevolent ones. for instance, even the indian programs in the third movie believed in KARMA.

the malevolent ones like the merovingian and smith espoused fatalism and inevitability.

the architect and the entire messiah artifice was a machine invention to conquer 'the problem of choice' anomaly.

2.
neo responds to smith's question 'WHY?!' by saying simply 'I CHOOSE TO.'

at the end of revolutions, seraph asks the oracle if 'she always knew'. she says 'oh no. but i BELIEVED.'

i think those statements sum up the HUMAN side. first, no matter what, human beings can and MUST have choice. i believe the movie is arguing that the merovingian is indeed WRONG. there is no destiny, there is no fatalism. there is only choice.

and the oracle's statement is profound in this:

THE ANSWER TO THE DESCARTIAN PROBLEM OF HOW YOU KNOW THAT REALITY IS TRUE IS THIS - YOU CANNOT KNOW.

YOU CAN ONLY BELIEVE.

basically saying that you cannot know if everything around you is an illusion. but in the absence of irrefutable knowledge, there is simple, and by definition, blind faith. for what else is there?

so in the end, the human side is defined by:

IGNORANCE
CHOICE
FAITH

3. but there is a quality that both the machines and the humans share. and that is:

LOVE

the indian program loves his daughter. and in the end, it is LOVE that is the unifying characteristic that can bridge two species that are perhaps incompatible.
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funny then how the matrix series seems basically to be a dramatization of a simply bible verse that i don't remember very well....

goes something like, 'there is faith, hope and love. but the greatest of these is love.'

wouldn't have anticipated that as being the message... !

jin

sadkkf
04-10-2004, 07:59 AM
Yeah, it had a good story idea, but it wasn't an action movie which is what the Matrix is full of, and attracts most of it's audience.

You're absolutely right. I was so disappointed in the Matrix 1 after seeing all the violence played in slow motion. And I can't get over the fact they wear dark sunglasses and leather trenchcoats. I guess it's important to look cool when you're saving the human race. :rolleyes:

Also, 13th Floor was so well done. The lighting was amazing; it was a real treat seeing a modern noir picture. And the acting was top-notch -- nobody saying "whoa" or anything.:D

theo
04-10-2004, 08:52 AM
The Thieteenth Floor was a fine movie but it lacked cinematic quality. It was too TVish, if there is such a word. I would have like to have seen more attention payed to the visual ambiance, which was OK but not outstanding.

Jin- Its kind of interesting but the recent Lee Stranahan thread pretty much encapsulates almost everything the Matrix story line tried to project- the entire discussion pretty much came down to choices and belief and living together in harmony with these decision-making tools.

But as in the Matrix Tri, our very real and entire human system is crucially flawed by destructive choices or beliefs that individuals or sub-systems (collections of humans) adopt to as a means of control or subversion.

This is a very old concept and goes back as far Sumeria and Babylonia.

I do agree with you about the snapshot opportunities in the flicks that can be studied for technical purposes- BUT only to a limit.
Bcause I am one of these guys that thinks CG is getting off track.
It is losing its luster. Sure, to the technical 3D mind (like mine or yours) the CG and effects are cool but movies aren't made just for the "technicals" to play and experiment with new toys. The story line is the King, the cinematography is the Queen and the CG and special effects are the Dukes and Earls.

This may sound funny coming from a CG guy but the problem is that CG is becoming something of a sore spot with me because a lot of the guys doing it are nothing but copycatters which perpetuated bad technique and style. INNOVATION and ARTISTRY should be the rule of the day- unfortunately this isn't the case and a huge portion of the flicks being made today are falling flat as a result.

jin choung
04-10-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by theo

This may sound funny coming from a CG guy but the problem is that CG is becoming something of a sore spot with me because a lot of the guys doing it are nothing but copycatters which perpetuated bad technique and style. INNOVATION and ARTISTRY should be the rule of the day- unfortunately this isn't the case and a huge portion of the flicks being made today are falling flat as a result.

oh yeah....

i'd agree with that one hundred percent. but it's funny how even the guy whose motto this became from his start, george lucas, can't even live up to this ideal.

hell, he's kinda become a walking talking tech demo these days....

but then again, cinema has always been a hybrid monkey of sorts... pure technological innovation ends up playing a huge role in the stuff that's put out whether it's color film, synchronous sound, 3D comin' at ya, smellovision... what have ya.

but things always equilibrium out in the end... i don't see the end of good cinema comin' as a result of the advent of cgi... or kung fu. :)

have you seen hellboy? i actually thought that this was almost the diametric opposite of reloaded and by scaling back action sequences and fx, was a much much better flick than i anticipated. not an important film but really quite good for a popcorn vehicle.

jin

lwlurker
04-10-2004, 01:01 PM
Actually, I thought Neo's assimilation by Smith brought about Smith's demise because the "Source" was directly plugged into Neo, and could therefore attack Smith directly, imprinting its own order into the Matrix again. The Source, recognizing Neo's action as the ultimate act of self-sacrifice, honors his wish for peace. Neo's death wasn't just for his friends, it was also for his enemies (fitting back into the Christ motif -- the ultimate act of love for those who were his enemies, in order to restore peace.)
This elevates his cause to one that even the Architect cannot fight, despite his confusion about its prospects or success.
Philosophically entertaining.
The storytelling was annoying. From Morpheus' role as a clumsy co-pilot to the revisit of GIJane and the long-winded "relationship" scenes (aaargh!) I had to rush off and watch an episode of "The Wiggles" with my 3-year old just to restore some intelligent balance again!

jamesl
04-10-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by theo
Matrix 3 is a total piece of crap.

The producers of this type of genre are just not making movies that hold my interest any more. I am afraid that if Hollywood and the so-called high-level visual effects shops don't get their act together and start producing a more mature CG-enhanced poduct the public may start avoiding this type of genre altogether.

Who the heck wants to pay $8.50 just to see a bunch of stupid robots or monsters in whatever shape or size (they all just mesh together after a while) try to kill humans. Geesh- it's all getting so predictable. Its like a 3D stunt show or something anymore- this is not compelling story telling, which is what movies are about.



Have you seen the boxoffice of Scooby Doo 2? There is NO accounting for taste. That said, I thought 'Reloaded' was the worst of the 3, padding a perfectly good 2 film story with [email protected] that has nothing to do with anything (merovingian? ghosts? How about that 15 minute Soul Train dance party in Zion? Poop.) Let's see a 3-4 hour re-edit of the first and last film into one good story. Maybe I'll fire up the VT3...

j

gjjackson
04-10-2004, 02:17 PM
I finally got the DVD. It sure makes a difference sitting in the theatre as opposed to TV. In the theatre the film is more overwhelming in the effects and is easy to overlook much.

One thing I realized is everything is a 'boolean'. Neo-Smith, Neo's love- Smith's hate, Oracle-Architect, all the way down to Man-Woman, there was more but I've forgotten now.

I'm not sure Neo died. I took it that he replaced Smith in the Matrix.

As far as a lot of the visuals I guess it would help to know what the Wachokowski brothers were interested in. They have a deep affection for Eastern entertainment, philosophy. That is Kung Fu and Anime. The shelling of the Sentinels really showed this. It really looked like something right out of Anime. I'm no big fan of Anime and that's probably why I didn't care for that part that much. And with Anime they seemed to want to show visuals that were more "Virtual Cinematography".

As far as explaining more, most filmakers don't really want to do that. The idea is to let the individual use his imagination. Generally that's what makes something more interesting.

One movie that really drew me in was the Sixth Sense. For some reason that was so well done that it was actually emotionally draining. Even as much as I really liked that movie I can hardly watch it for that reason. Go figure.

theo
04-10-2004, 05:10 PM
Hey Jin- Hellboy was actually a good flick. The Cg is impressive all the way through. The ending was a bit washed up in my opinion but not enough to ruin the movie. All in all a good watch with an interesting story line and great visuals.

James- Are you sure its safe to run Matrix 2-3 through your VT3?

sadkkf
04-11-2004, 11:29 AM
I would have like to have seen more attention payed to the visual ambiance, which was OK but not outstanding.

Actually, I believe the "ambiance" is outstanding. The use of light, shadow and color were played deftly to create such a wonderful tone for the film. Again, it's noir; all the elements of that genre are present and for me, it's a real treat to see a modern take on it.


Maybe I'll fire up the VT3...

You may want to be careful with that.:eek:

jamesl
04-11-2004, 11:57 AM
James- Are you sure its safe to run Matrix 2-3 through your VT3?

You may want to be careful with that.:eek:

Alright, what the heck are you guys talking about? Can I rip footage from a DVD and edit it? Yes. Can I do so legally? Yes. Can I re-burn it on to a DVD for private use? Yes. Can I sell copies on ebay or distribute on Kazaa? No.

kcole
04-11-2004, 12:43 PM
Actually, ripping a DVD is not legal, even for personal use. The DMCA prevents bypassing copy protection, at least until it's challenged and ruled unconstitutional.

Qexit
04-11-2004, 01:56 PM
Alright, what the heck are you guys talking about? Can I rip footage from a DVD and edit it? Yes.

Agreed, lots of utilities around to let you do that.

[/QUOTE]Can I re-burn it on to a DVD for private use? Yes.[/QUOTE]

Again, lots of utilities around to let you do that.

[/QUOTE]Can I do so legally? Yes.[/QUOTE]

Nope...at least not here in the UK. You fall foul of Copyright law at every step. Ripping, editing and reburning are all illegal. Unless the owner of the Copyright specifically allows you to do those things, you're breaking the law.

jin choung
04-12-2004, 03:13 AM
puh-leez,

the DMCA and similar laws are illegal by virtue of complete idiocy.

forget about the fact that it violates any and all notion of FAIR USE but how in the world can you illegalize taking something apart to see how it works?

you can buy a safe and see what makes it tick but you can't do that with software?!

ludicrous.

nevermind that according to those same laws, you are commiting a mother fing FELONY by making your girl friend a MIX-CD for heaven's sake, someone who re-edits a dvd for his own fun, without distributing product, for dvds that HE BOUGHT WITH HIS OWN GD Fing MONEY is clearly beyond ANY reasonable claim of wrong doing.

it's one thing to argue against 'legitimate' piracy proper... but in regards to james' completely off-hand, casual and good humored remark, i think these academic reminders and warnings are a bit on the insane side... dontcha think?

how is anyone gonna know?

you guys gonna turn him in?

and is there anything at all that his conscience should bother him about?

jin

p.s. james, there's also a ludicrous lil' necessity called the 'analog hole' that you can utilize to keep completely legal....

jamesl
04-12-2004, 03:34 AM
Jeesus... I've had to rip DVDs for my own demo reel. And yes, I distributed the results. And as I've gotten better jobs based on those videos, I guess you could argue that I've profited from the distribution of bootleged copyright material. Still, doesn't anyone have to show that I've caused damage to their property? Like, since the people saw the work that I copied, they are LESS likely to go purchase a copy of the whole film for themselves? This is really getting silly. Go Kazzaa! Screw Ben Affleck.

j

jin choung
04-12-2004, 03:43 AM
hey james,

well it is technically, academically illegal.

but the law is sillier than prohibition.

rock on.

jin

theo
04-12-2004, 06:07 AM
Hey James- Sorry about getting you dumped on :(

I was in jest about runnning Matrix 2-3 through your VT3- What I meant was- would the digital crap foul up your machine?

The only thing I am not clear on James is are you using other people's material as your own? Which is not really fair if you are.

In NO WAY am I one of these compulsive government-shy freaks who is on the side of a militaristic/communistic corporation that wants to jail people for sending a copy of a movie or song to a friend. I, of course, am vehemently FOR the rights of the artist and I vehemently think that people should be RESPONSIBLE and RESPECTFUL of the right of artists to make a living. In short though the entire music/movie industry is creating a monster, one which will have far worse consequences than prohibition I do believe.

Education is the best way, in my opinion, to inform people of the consequence of copyright infringement which is that the ARTIST can be hurt financially. And not only this but there is flexibility to everything in life and the Music/Movie industry is refusing to accept this and by putting a concrete hedge around their property a new level of control has to be exercised which essentially mirrors an IRS-like mentality- and we all know what happens if we don't pay our "dues".

I personally feel that serious consequnces should only be meted out on offenders that exceed certain limits. Duplication and back-engineering, if for personal use (which may include a girl-friend or a mom) should NOT be an issue in anyone's eyes as at this level it is a freedom issue and not a financially beneficial issue.

jamesl
04-12-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by theo

The only thing I am not clear on James is are you using other people's material as your own? Which is not really fair if you are.


It's my work, and the crappy tape the studio gave me for my reel is worthless. So I rip my scenes from the DVDs. It's a fairly common practice. Actually, I think it's entirely leagal, as I don't distibute the material... I keep my reel for live interviews only.

j

theo
04-12-2004, 12:44 PM
James- You gots ta do what ya gots ta do man.

artmarci
04-20-2004, 06:33 AM
Kewl Forum!Laught My *** Off and Interresthings read stuff here:D
But to sort things up Matrix 3:Wack End!Kewl Zion inside War though.

Matrix 2:is a Matrix 1 Finalyser for better fights and better specials.And ofcourse it just a Big Tease to 3.

Matrix 1:Lets not put that movie in the catogorie coss it was the best mind blowing movie ever made for 1999 and ofcourse a new statement for a Cult Movie