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archiea
03-26-2004, 02:33 PM
There was this talk regarding LW 9 being a rewrite/new core...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=133442

Both here and at cgtalk.

My question is , what is this talk of rewrite, if the sales pitch to LW 6 was that IT was a rewrite. Since 7.o I've heard that LW needs a Rewrite. So imagine LW 9.0 w/ its new core comes out, then by 9.5 we'll be hearing about needing a rewrite because we asked for a current feature.

So what gives?

hrgiger
03-26-2004, 02:54 PM
You would think that people could at least wait until 8 ships before writing a bunch of meaningless speculation and rumors about Lightwave 9.

Just sad.

archiea
03-26-2004, 03:08 PM
well, there's that...

And then there's the fool who keeps posting threads that LW is already out... sheesh!

Hey wait a minute!!!!

But say it is ue, my point is how many times does LW have to be rewritten just to add something to it!??!?!?!?!!?

meatycheesyboy
03-26-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by archiea
[BBut say it is ue, my point is how many times does LW have to be rewritten just to add something to it!??!?!?!?!!? [/B]

Well, I think the answer to that depends on flexibility.

My current job is creating presentations for clients in Powerpoint. If I build a slide that uses nothing but photoshop graphics for everything (including text) and the client wants to change something, I have to rebuild the entire thing in Photoshop again, but if I use Powerpoint text for parts and the client wants to change something, I just have to edit it in Powerpoint.

I think with LW it is similar. If they build a flexible enough underlying structure, then a rewrite wouldn't be requested as often as it is currently.

Of course, I know very little about programming so I'm only speculating. This may not be the case at all.

BTW, tell me if you find that fool who keeps posting that LW8 is out already, I'd like to tell him a thing or two. ;)

bloontz
03-26-2004, 03:53 PM
I think meatycheesy has the right idea. Programs should be designed using the concepts of object oriented programming. Rather than having a monolithic core application, things are broken down into modules that encapsulate key functionalities. If designed properly then the modules can be updated without breaking other parts of the app. I would hope that at least a large part of Lightwave is object oriented by this point, as object oriented design has been the staple for a long time now.

pixelinfected
03-26-2004, 04:38 PM
lw was never rewritten, the lw[6] release was only a restyle, or NT team add some important features like multiple undo on layout, a more flexible structure, and a modern object oriented structure with c++, and not with old c code.

archiea
03-26-2004, 04:39 PM
My mechanice thinks that both my car and wallet is object oriented!!!!!!!

pixelinfected
03-26-2004, 05:01 PM
my cat too, but she prefer to sleep on lw box, and she not think is important the object oriented lw philosophy.

think to 3d max, it's flex core allow developer to create a plugin which can dialog with all other plugin, but not with one to one calling, single plugin talk with core, and it inform about all other plugin working.

like a big information center. In lw every developer must understand and try to ear what other plugin do.

if someone think i'm not so important and my knowledge about lw developing is good, try to read what mr Worley tell about LW sdk (that mena how core and dev support work).
If Worley, which is ones of big CGI Father, tell that...
you can know why i want a modern develop of lw.
have a nice weekend

Nemoid
03-27-2004, 02:04 AM
Pixelinfected is right. rewriting Lw its not a matter of restyle, or hype, just because the most of 3D app are integrated.

It's a real need. Get some infos about Lw history , and you will learn and understand why this is SO important for a bright future of the app, and for a good 3D animation package in general.

Read as well some of the interviews on Newtek Europe, given by great Lw users. most of them are fortunately allowed to talk about integration, and rewrite.

prospector
03-27-2004, 08:50 AM
O NO, the I word again..

That's not good.

Get some infos about Lw history ,
LW was a plug-in for the Toaster, to help with titleing, basic stuff for video that was brought into the Toaster, Then it gradually did better and better animations for the Toaster.
It went independent on ver 5 (PC), then went thru the nightmare 6 ver that was re-written to play well with OGl (tho the old way was MUCH faster) and included LScripting.
Then ver 7 and now 8

And thru all the versions Layout and Modeler were SEPERATE but worked well together.

And thru all ver, there was the death bells ringing (or so some said)
'The Amigas demise was the end of LW'
'If they don't get intigrated then LW will die because everyone WANTS 1 app'

been going for years.

Lets just hope the NEW programmers don't get THAT hair up thier butt and try to integrate them.

To Tim Jenneson I say...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE..if any programmers get the idea that they need integrating, make them stand in the corner for a day or even better..Take away thier Krispy Kremes for a month, untill they straighten out.:)

And if they STILL wont, then give them the Ol' Donald Trump "YOUR FIRED!!":D

Lightwolf
03-27-2004, 09:26 AM
I don't think the question is whether to integrate or not, but how.
Take the strengths of the current concept, eliminate the weaknesses, and off you go.
One thing that bugs me for example is that the oh so ressource friendly approach of two apps is anyhting but that if you work with huge models and image maps using the hub. Woho, great, no Layout and Modeler both chew up the RAM, even though they could share the ressources.

Integration should imho be done like this:
Turn the Hub in a core module of LW, actually into _the_ core module. Layout and Modeler will then only be shared libraries (basically "plugins") that get loaded on demand, and could even still have their own windows, but operate directly on the ressources handled by the Hub, instead of managing them on their own (and wasting RAM).
This would be expandable to allow for third party add-on modules (3D painting comes to mind).
Couple that with a decent workspace manager... Yum :)

Cheers,
Mike - who wants integration - done right.

mouse_art
03-27-2004, 09:26 AM
because everyone WANTS 1 app


No not everyone,but better/bugless communication, within modeler/layout needed!

lede
03-27-2004, 09:28 AM
Yeah Prospector, I remember to old Amiga day's when people predicted that NT would go belly up just like Commador. Well that has been almost ten years and NT is still here. Keep going NT!

Bottom line is, it is the artist not the tool that makes art. Now before we get our feathers ruffeled here, LW is far from perfect. With the way technology grows it is really hard to make any concreate plans beyond a few years. Not that long ago we thought that gigahurtz computers we're just a fairy tale:) but today it is reality.

We need to keep dreaming for NT and giving them new idea's. These dreams will grow into some cool tool their programmers build for us. Thats how LW keeps evolving and with the programmers looking at the current code, some thing might not be possable now but it doesn't mean it wont be possable in a few years.

Keep Lightwaving and have fun. Don't worry about what the doom sayers write NT has been going against the odds for years now.

-Lede

prospector
03-27-2004, 04:16 PM
Layout and Modeler will then only be shared libraries (basically "plugins") that get loaded on demand, and could even still have their own windows, but operate directly on the ressources handled by the Hub, instead of managing them on their own (and wasting RAM).

Yes..just how the Amiga worked.
Only calling up libraries when needed, and dumping them after operation was done.

So what we need is a hub showing on desktop, open the HUB and then either part of LW from there.

Good point Lightwolf.

LW is far from perfect.
But far ahead of the others.;)

Lightwolf
03-27-2004, 05:11 PM
prospector:
Actually that is how .dlls on windows work as well (and, surprise, surprise, a .p plugin is nothing but a renamed .dll :) ).

There wouldn't need to be any difference from what we have now, the Hub wouldn't even need an icon.

The Modeler and Layout icons could just contain a command line with a switch:

hub.exe -load Layout
hub.exe -load Modeler

may be even:

hub.exe -load Layout -newinstance
hub.exe -load Modeler -newinstance

Since the first version would just pop layout or modeler to front if they are already loaded.

These calls would of course be hidden within icons, or whatever.

Cheers,
Mike

P.S. And if that new hub could keep scenes and objects in sync across a network... ahhhhhhhhh :)

Chris S. (Fez)
03-27-2004, 06:42 PM
"And if that new hub could keep scenes and objects in sync across a network... ahhhhhhhhh"

I second that "ahhhhhhhhh"!

Zach
03-28-2004, 02:49 AM
Lightwolf, you're neat.

I like to call myself cynical about most things, but with LightWave, I'll call myself pessimistic.

Lightwave just doesn't have the resources from NewTek to go further than its current core. We are dead in the water. We need a company like Avid, Sony, or Microsoft to put more money into the development of good ole LW.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be perusing these boards and posting messages if I didn't have a love affair with our favorite 3D software, but I am a sad and bitter old man when it comes to optimism and NewTek.

C'mon IK Booster!

Lightwolf
03-28-2004, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Zach
Lightwolf, you're neat.
Lol, I've never looked at myself _that_ way ;)

Lightwave just doesn't have the resources from NewTek to go further than its current core. We are dead in the water. We need a company like Avid, Sony, or Microsoft to put more money into the development of good ole LW.
Sorry, I don't think that money is everything in this game. Nor is the number of programmers coding away. Look at what Jos Stams singlehandedly did for Alias (the whole fluid dynamics stuff), while also having time to give talks, write papers...
What NT needs is a solid plan for a new architecture, and then, as Chuck mentioned in another post, a gradual replacement of the current one with the new one.
The only thing that bugs me with the word gradual in this context is that I would like to see LW switch over from C to C++, and that kind of clashes with "gradual" ;)
Even Avid, Sony of Microsoft don't always release great new products. Microsoft Word is still a joke as a word processor after billions of dollars of development costs, and years of coding.
One the other hand, softimage (note, not Avid, even though they bought), have gained massively since they finished their new architecture. You have to make that step every now and then to remain in the game. Heck, let NT pay two decent software engineers to sit down for a year or two just to design (not code) something decent. That is a bit of a luxury, but well worth it.
Even smaller companies take that luxury (actually, it seems that the larger ones don't). Look at the 'l' company, of PMG for example. In the early stages they even scrapped their concept for messiah:animate once, and re-did most of their work. And there is only three guys coding...
LW must have at least 10 programmers or so sitting at the code, with a release cycle of 1,5 years, it would allow for both, a continuation to the 8.x line, and some spare for the next gen.

My 2 cents...
Cheers,
Mike

pixelinfected
03-28-2004, 05:53 AM
some correction about lw hystory.

Lightwave went indipendent (not official for newtek) with 3.0 and an legal/illegal product called lightrave, dongle+software which emulate toaster (original protection of lw, if toaster was not present on amiga, lightwave not start), then newtek try to update nad invalidate that, but nothing.

few month later Newtek exit with lw3.5 amiga, which is a dongle product without toaster (i know be cause i'm ones of first in europe to bought it).
This new lw in not only toaster free, but could work with pal (european) resolution and more, and start to have first screamernet implementation to help the building of first renderfarm, thanks also to Todd Rundgreen, a singer which bought toaster and did itself its video. he start the request to newtek to build first renderfarm, and solution to did that without toaster.

lw 4 was first multiplatform (Amiga, Intel, Alpha 64bit, SGI), and introduce first plugin interface (before that, most of plugin are developed like macro with internal scripting language of amiga, arexx, very similar of rexx languages).

Lw 5-5.6 was the full multiplatform software (amiga, Intel, Alpha 64bit, Mac os, SGI, Sun)

lw 6 was a contraction (intel and Mac only), on amiga hardware went slow and not updated, alpha hardware was sold and not developed, SGI and sun haven't enought selling to support developing.

lw6.5 was little revolution (Intel, Mac os 9, and X, first professional 3d software for OS X released, and in some cd there was a lw6.5 alpha version, i remember a word of Chuck Backer which tell that in the last shipping cd of 6.5, there is a 6.5 version also for alpha, developed for special project, i read that in old answer of chuck in old NT forum).

lw 7-7.5 (Intel and Mac os 9, X)

lw 7.5c (intel, Mac os 9, X, and Linux screamernet, which is interesting, but without the possibility of use external plugin, reduce a lot the power of renderfarm under linux os)

lw x future? anyone can tell its idea, i hope intel, amd, Mac os X, and Linux.
i tell intel and amd be cause i hope to see an optimized version of lw per processor like old amiga time, where in the floppy of install you can decide if you install lw version for 68000, 68020, 68030 or 68040.

Optimization per processor is interesting and important features missed in the last time, but in 3d computing where speed is never enought...

if someone tell me about Moore law, i answer witha question?
if Moore law is exactly, why every two years same benchmark are not half of previous?
Why intelligent guys of pixar build shader which antialias its material and prefer to not antialias all in last part or rendering pipeline?

have a nice day guys!



Originally posted by prospector
O NO, the I word again..

That's not good.

Get some infos about Lw history ,
LW was a plug-in for the Toaster, to help with titleing, basic stuff for video that was brought into the Toaster, Then it gradually did better and better animations for the Toaster.
It went independent on ver 5 (PC), then went thru the nightmare 6 ver that was re-written to play well with OGl (tho the old way was MUCH faster) and included LScripting.
Then ver 7 and now 8

And thru all the versions Layout and Modeler were SEPERATE but worked well together.

And thru all ver, there was the death bells ringing (or so some said)
'The Amigas demise was the end of LW'
'If they don't get intigrated then LW will die because everyone WANTS 1 app'

been going for years.

Lets just hope the NEW programmers don't get THAT hair up thier butt and try to integrate them.

To Tim Jenneson I say...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE..if any programmers get the idea that they need integrating, make them stand in the corner for a day or even better..Take away thier Krispy Kremes for a month, untill they straighten out.:)

And if they STILL wont, then give them the Ol' Donald Trump "YOUR FIRED!!":D

prospector
03-28-2004, 08:11 AM
Lightwave went indipendent (not official for newtek) with 3.0 and an legal/illegal product called lightrave,
wasn't official ver tho that I remember.


few month later Newtek exit with lw3.5 amiga, which is a dongle product without toaster

Never seen one in the States, went back thru my Toaster/Video User magazines and saw no ads for them (starting at Feb/Mar 1993 (the audio for video) issue,
Also the 'Amazing/Amiga' from Sept 1995 and up (the Amiga Tools) issue,
And the Amiga World issue from Jan 1993 and up (the 'New 1200) issue,
And even a few Amiga Informer issues going back to Oct/Nov 1997

HMMM

Yep, 4 was the switch over ver, shoulda known that:)

Lightwolf
03-28-2004, 08:17 AM
Lo, I remember LW 3.51 I think it was, on my Amiga back then. With lightrave and a DCTV... great stuff.
4.0 was the first standalone you could buy in Europe as far as I can remember as well. Even though some people had imported Toasters to Europe before that to be able to use LW, some even used NTSC to PAL converters... yeuck ;)

Cheers,
Mike

nixx
03-28-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
Even though some people had imported Toasters to Europe before that to be able to use LW, some even used NTSC to PAL converters... yeuck ;)

Yuck indeed... I was one of them :o

Although "indirectly" (it was a friend of mine who bought it, I just worked on the system) !

Toaster 3.1 I think, if memory serves me right... The NTSC to PAL converter alone I think cost more than the toaster :rolleyes:
Ah, those were the days...

nick

Lightwolf
03-28-2004, 04:28 PM
Gei sou nick...
I was really tempted, but didn't have the money, so I ended up with Imagine, like many of us :)
And I saw my first Toaster at Siggraph '93, as a student volunteer, at this awful sig party in a joint called cowboy boogie. Hilarious stuff, 50% cowboys and coygirls square dancing, 50% nerds asking the dj to play decent music, playing around with a video camera, a beamer, a genlock and color fx...
Cheers,
Mike - who will go to sleep now...

BeeVee
03-29-2004, 01:05 AM
In those days I worked for MicroPACE UK, and yes, we did sell LightRave with v3, and there was a dongled 3.5 from NewTek, but perhaps it was kept quiet? We also looked at a TBC/Standards Converter-equipped A4000 for selling Video Toasters, we even had one running, but the quality was poor, you could only effectively have one input/output, since you needed a standards converter for both ways and there were only four slots in the A4000, and there were German companies coming out with really impressive video products (terribly over complex software, but lovely hardware), some of which I got to see long before they were available, like the never released wavelet board from the company that became phase 5 (Dietrich und Hauber(?)).

B

Lightwolf
03-29-2004, 02:16 AM
Well, I used to mhave one of MacroSystems editing boards with the bundled software. Great stuff for the time, it allowed be to do NLE in 92/93 I think it was.
And the editor was great for the time, hey, unlimited layers! (Well, 99 actually), and a concept not too far of from SpeedRazor...
Cheers,
Mike - who feels old now ;)

BeeVee
03-29-2004, 02:29 AM
The boss of Marco Systems - Jorge Sprave - attended one of those universities where it was still good behaviour to sport fencing scars on the face? Heidelberg, was it?

B

Lightwolf
03-29-2004, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by BeeVee
The boss of Marco Systems - Jorge Sprave - attended one of those universities where it was still good behaviour to sport fencing scars on the face? Heidelberg, was it?

That doesn't depend on the universtity, but tends to happen if you join a fraternity (Burschenschaft).
That really hasn't been good behaviour here for the past 35 years or so :) (they tend to be very iffy clubs).
Cheers,
Mike

omeone
03-29-2004, 03:26 AM
Thats not those little guys who go around with stripey scarves, speaking in best Oxford accents and speaking of honour, and treating women with such courtesy it borders on chauvinism, is it?

Lightwolf
03-29-2004, 03:40 AM
Yep, that's them, including adolescent beer drinking bouts and an affection for right-wing, nationalistic thoughts.

Mind you though, the Oxford accents tends to be a remainder of our schooling :)
Cheers,
Mike

pixelinfected
03-29-2004, 03:43 AM
the old box of lw3.5 for amiga, blue with wave texture in background is in my box of oldies, where there is a cpu card of amiga 3000+ (a never released amiga from commodore, which my old friend give me like a gift. he worked for some years in the hardware develop of commodore, and many other missed thing).

my lw3.5 amiga was bought from safe harbor, be cause at that time, there wasn't a newtek europe or other distributor in italy,
be cause it was first official toaster free version, and first pal version.
it has first implementation of metaform (a miracle for that period).
;-)

omeone
03-29-2004, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
Yep, that's them, including adolescent beer drinking bouts and an affection for right-wing, nationalistic thoughts.


lol. I had written that - but removed it before posting, to be fair I did know a few from one particular group that frequented the bar I worked in, who really were decent lads.