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View Full Version : Jumping in feet first with patch 3!?!



jbcaro
03-22-2004, 03:19 PM
I have decided to attempt the upgrade to VT[3] patch 3 and have read a lot about very successful upgrades and many horror stories. What I would like to know before I take the plunge is the following:

1. Do I need to backup/move any files and/or folders before I start the update?

2. Does the patch just run from the downloaded file or does it extract and then I run an installer?

3. Are there any "gotcha's" that I need to look for? I would hate to start the update and then find out that I should have done this first.

4. Is there anything that I have not thought about that would help this update go without a hitch?

My system

VT[3] build 4744
SuperMicro X5DA8
2 Xeon 2.4GHz
1Gb PC2100 DDR
Nvidia Ti 4600
4 U320 73Gb stripe
SX-8
SVO5800 (no RS422 connection)
DSR-80 (no RS422 connection)

Any help that anyone can give me before I try to walk on water would be greatly appreciated.:D


Thanks,
John C

battcom
03-22-2004, 04:05 PM
Install was very smooth for me Friday. Just like any typical download/install. You need to back up your C/VT3 folder. Probably not anything in there worth saving that it wont overwrite correctly.
I upgraded to see if the "high" quality does anything for image anti-aliasing...kinda does, I guess. Still doesnt scale or animate like SRazor or BorisFX but better than before.
I did notice that response time between actions is slower, but maybe thats the difference between working with "medium" and "high" quality titles. Anyone confirm? Dual 2.3s ought to handle this, IMO.

RomainR
03-22-2004, 04:45 PM
Yes High Quality is more demanding. Try turning off the icons for the timeline.

ted
03-22-2004, 04:55 PM
I usually edit with overlays at Med. or Low. Then before dubbing off the project I turn all Overlays to High Quality and place a "Force Render" under everything.

battcom
03-22-2004, 06:07 PM
Excellent idea, Romain. You and Ted aren't on TrinityCentral anymore? ha...

bradl
03-22-2004, 06:40 PM
I had my first full scale experience with High Quality today. I needed to lay off a project created before Patch 3 that had about 20 CG pages slowly Zooming up more or less one after the other. They looked pretty rough but I was willing to live with it. Decided to apply High to all them and they looked very good. I was happy until I tried to Print To Tape. I kept getting stutters even though I had green light. I had tweaked my green light issue until it was almost perfect prior to this. Now it seems as if using High definitely demands more on the system, but fails to indicate to the background render the needed change in the green light threshold. I kept cranking the cache settings down, no good, down more, no good etc etc. finally got to a pathetic level before it would play through it all smoothly.

Now here is my fear. The cache settings must be so low to trigger the High setting to render, the rest of the timeline suffers from rendering as well when in fact it may not need it. If that's true, the whole background render, green light indicator system in obsolete and invalid. The only sensible course of action is back to using force render filters. Not good.

Andrew, if you are reading this, please figure out a way for High quality to trigger the appropriate amount of extra background rendering needed for that section only.

RomainR
03-22-2004, 07:09 PM
TrinityCentral, hehe.

Good times, good times.

It seems as if pretty much everyone migrated on over to greyer pasteurs. :D

I wonder what became of John Williams?

battcom
03-22-2004, 07:34 PM
You're right, Brad. Same thing here. Make sure you assign a cache path in preferences right off the bat -- it didnt automatically find my cache folder after the install and I was going nuts wondering why there were stutters even with the green light.

ted
03-22-2004, 10:37 PM
Battcom, I still pop into T.C., but there is waaaay too much action here that takes precedent!;)

I don't trust the green light when mastering dubs. I always force Render.

ScorpioProd
03-23-2004, 12:09 AM
I'm not sure why, but with Patch 3, autoconfig pointed ALL my cache files to one of my firewired drives, which was obviously NOT what I wanted.

So I had to go and change them for not only VT-Edit cache files, but also Aura's cache file.

And the PCI bandwidth has never been properly set by any of the autoconfigs, so I am used to adjusting that normally to PCI-X 64-bit unlimited for my on-motherboard SCSI array.

Tom Wood
03-23-2004, 08:32 AM
I'm getting the feeling that I'd rather skip this patch so I can finish the current project. The only thing that interests me is whether or not TMPGEnc has been fixed. At present, when I load a TED project into TMPGEnc Pro, it immediately crashes. But there are workarounds that don't hurt so much. If I skip this patch, is the next one likely to be cumulative so I just install it by itself?

TW

VT3
Win XP Pro
Dual 2.4 Xeon
2G RAM
Pioneer AO5
DVD Workshop

Ivan
03-23-2004, 08:58 AM
I have installed the patch on three machines so far and I only ran into one issue so far. On the last install I was getting a message that the D: drive was not accessable when I opened CG. I found that one of the text files in the CG folder was pointing to the CD drive and changed it to point to the C: drive and it now works perfectly. Not sure what happened there but it was easy to fix and I really doubt I or anyone else will see that error again. If you do, post it and I can tell you where to look to fix it.

If you drag the "User Data" folder from the "VT3" folder to the desktop and replace it after the install you will find that everything is as it was before. Be sure to write down your Prefs and Hotlist so you can go back and set them up the same and you are on your way. In fact, last night I installed on a machine where the user was in the middle of a project, not what I would recommend but I figured I could get it back if I needed. I set the desktop he was working in as preset 1 and after the install I replaced the User Data folder and recalled desktop 1 and it loaded the project and everything.

I just finished 3 videos this morning with TMPG rendering the VT-Edit Project file. I was a little worried because on the first one TMPG crashed. I re-did it and it went fine, not sure what happened. The second and third processed flawlessly the first time through.


Ivan

ACross
03-23-2004, 09:39 AM
Brad,

You are correct that High quality requires quite a bit more CPU time than the other settings given that it uses an entirely floating point inner loop.

It is often hard (to VT-Edit) to know magically ahead of time how hard a particular effect or setting is going to be to render. There are unfortunately so many variables and parameters that can affect things, including things as mundane as CPU cache size, memory bandwidth, drivers, applications running,etc... As such in practice it is very hard to boil down the entire computer speed to one accurate number that always knows when a project or part of project is to hard to render in real-time. Unfortunately this means that sometimes VT-Edit cannot estimate exactly what needs rendering and what does not. One easy work-around to this problem is simply to use the "Force Render" filter to manually set areas of the project for rendering when the app. is not intelligent enough on it's own to work things out.

All that said, I would appreciate it if you could experiment a bit and see, for a single clip how much higher the CPU speed setting needs to be for high vs. medium. If you email me these settings I can go back and modify the code so that it reflects more than just the machines I tested it on internally.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards,

Andrew

ps. EMAIL = ACROSS at NEWTEK dot COM


Originally posted by bradl
I had my first full scale experience with High Quality today. I needed to lay off a project created before Patch 3 that had about 20 CG pages slowly Zooming up more or less one after the other. They looked pretty rough but I was willing to live with it. Decided to apply High to all them and they looked very good. I was happy until I tried to Print To Tape. I kept getting stutters even though I had green light. I had tweaked my green light issue until it was almost perfect prior to this. Now it seems as if using High definitely demands more on the system, but fails to indicate to the background render the needed change in the green light threshold. I kept cranking the cache settings down, no good, down more, no good etc etc. finally got to a pathetic level before it would play through it all smoothly.

Now here is my fear. The cache settings must be so low to trigger the High setting to render, the rest of the timeline suffers from rendering as well when in fact it may not need it. If that's true, the whole background render, green light indicator system in obsolete and invalid. The only sensible course of action is back to using force render filters. Not good.

Andrew, if you are reading this, please figure out a way for High quality to trigger the appropriate amount of extra background rendering needed for that section only.

videoguy
03-23-2004, 10:33 AM
Hey andrew its good to see you back around there for ahwile it seemed like you had dropped off the map. Also i just wanted to thank you for the great ewn code for the scaling engine it rocks the TOAST. the quality is heads and shoulders above what it was. though i havent tried to load an image 65,000 by 65,000 pixels yet :D

ACross
03-23-2004, 10:53 AM
I am always around ;) I just don't post quite as much as I used to because I seem to have way more to do these days !

Anybody who ever needs anything from me, just feel free to email me ... I try to reply to every email just as quickly as possible. Likewise, if my input is ever needed on a thread, don't hesitate to drop me an email and let me know. I'll jump straight on.

Andrew


Originally posted by videoguy
Hey andrew its good to see you back around there for ahwile it seemed like you had dropped off the map. Also i just wanted to thank you for the great ewn code for the scaling engine it rocks the TOAST. the quality is heads and shoulders above what it was. though i havent tried to load an image 65,000 by 65,000 pixels yet :D

Scott Bates
03-23-2004, 04:01 PM
And some people wonder why we're such NewTek diehards
:D ... thank you Andrew and all the rest of the crew!

bradl
03-23-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by ACross
...I would appreciate it if you could experiment a bit and see, for a single clip how much higher the CPU speed setting needs to be for high vs. medium. If you email me these settings I can go back and modify the code so that it reflects more than just the machines I tested it on internally... My method for determining an accurate threshold for background rendering (as indicated by the green light) is to adjust lower two different settings:

VT-Edit cache CPU limit
VT-Edit cache PCI bandwidth

I did a serious amount of testing one day all the way up to 64 active video layers! I found that there was a threshold setting for either the CPU limit or PCI bandwidth that would trigger the green light to go out and rendering to start. Either one set below this threshold worked, it didn't seem to matter which one. I found the threshold for the CPU limit by lowering it slightly (1/10 at at time). I don't remember the number but it was somewhere around .9 CPU Limit. For the PCI bandwidth settings it was easier as you only have the choices from the list. I found a setting of 60 Mhz was good. Since I am running dual 2.2 GHz Xeon with hyperthreading, I set it higher (basically having no effect) about 4.4 and I set the PCI bandwidth to 60. Now my timeline did take a little longer to render but I was getting almost 100% accuracy for my 'Print to Tape'.

For my lay off yesterday I kept lowering the PCI bandwidth down and had to get to 10, I believe. Trouble was that apparently required every single frame in my Timeline to render. Don't remember the CPU limit setting but it was also very low before the studdering would stop. It was like the system was saying, OK nothing here to render... what's the problem, yet it still studdered. It looked like to me there was absolutely no indication to the render engine that there was a difference between Med and High Quality. NONE!

Sorry so much detail but I hope it helps. Frankly I do not really understand your request "see... how much higher the CPU speed setting needs to be" it seems to me how much lower, but I guess you are looking for how much a difference there is to make it work? I will run some tests and document it, but it will be this weekend most likely.

Thanks for working on this as this is obviously a big deal to most users and we would all love to see accurate green lights. I did notice that AutoConfig set me up almost perfectly for background rendering settings, except only good at Medium Quality :(

mlowes
03-24-2004, 06:22 PM
Could ToasterEdit simply not have an additional way of checking the timeline for absolutely failsafe greenlight playback. What I'm thinking of is this...

A little toggle beside the green light in toasteredit.... when you activate it, this is what would happen

While your project is playing back, the sections of the timeline that actually drop frames, ToasterEdit makes a list of. Then in the background, it will render out to the cache just the sections of the timeline that were not able to playback in realtime.

When the whole timeline had been played back, and Tedit KNEW it could play back the whole project for sure in realtime, because it had, then the green light could shift to an even brighter shade of green.

Again, this would be in addition to the current background render, as an additional failsafe.

ScorpioProd
03-24-2004, 09:55 PM
I think that's a great idea, I'm just not sure how easy it would be to implement.

The real problem is simply that VT-Edit does NOT know if it drops frames. It's a very different situation to having it catch a dropped frame on capture, due to the "real-time all the time" nature of VT-Edit's output.

This is different from Premiere, for instance, which does tell you when you drop a frame in playback.

bradl
03-24-2004, 10:51 PM
That got me thinking...

DFX has a pretty neat system. It renders any frame you play to RAM (or Cache). As each frame goes by, a green line is created showing which sections you have previewed. For render heavy projects with VTEdit that would be a nice option. Want to watch a section, hit play, once through it, it's good to go, instead of it rendering in silence who know what while you sit and stare waiting for the green light, which I find myself doing way too much lately... print to tape has become a very finicky affair for us.

Original1
04-03-2004, 12:22 AM
There may well be a number of issues here, I'm running my VT 3 on a box that is far from ideal.

Athlon 1.7
2 * 100 gig IDE 133 raid
750Mb mem
Windows XP PRO
nVidia Geforce4 Ti 4200


I know, but I dont have the cash to upgrade my hardware right now.

Initially on the clean install I system was unusable and would lock up the first two or three times I tried to use VT - Edit.

For some reason it didn't seem to like Nview being set to Horizontal span which had always been fine under VT2

DV footage would play back smooth in the timeline buy RTV was stuttering.

this was on a 10 second clip, thought the file might be fragged so I moved to the other drive which had more space

Still the same, I open it in Aura, plays back fine, opened it in Speed Razor playback fine.

OK so now I know the file is OK, so the issue must be VT-edit.

In the End dropping DDR cache and TedCache to 20Mbs seems to solve it.

Bare in mind that I am using a very Low spec system, which is used mostly for DV editing and outputing LW sequences to Tape or used in DFX+

I am currently not doing live switching.

Hmm couple of quick jobs and I could afford that tyan tiger K8W with Dual Opterons

Happy Toasting:p

Original1
04-03-2004, 12:30 AM
One of the things that would be useful for complex sections is this.

As the interface stands at the moment there is no way of telling if the DDR are background rendering, so if something is cued up you only find out when it stutters on playback

Why not put a light on the DDR interface too?

(Unless I missed something in the Manual, I only just got my copy of VT3)

DonN
04-04-2004, 08:19 PM
Prior to installing Patch3 I would suggest,

* Backup your VT3 folder to another drive, then ignore the message about having another copy of VT3 installed, later on during the Patch3 install. Patch3 even thought my recycle bin contained another VT3 installed. ???
* Lightwave data folders are not included with the Patch3, so all that will have to be salvaged from the saved folder, or reloaded, custom, from the distribution CD.
* Write down your Preferences, as currently there is no way to save them in readable form or print them. There are changes in the Preferences - some new lines and some old ones gone. So even if you know which file is the Preferences data file, it's useless for Patch3.
* Finish up all your current Patch2 VTEdit Projects and render to file or tape.
* The old Projects do not always work proberly in the new Patch3 Editor.
* Audio particularly - levels splines - are mangled in going from a Patch2 Project to more editing in Patch3.

Otherwise everything should go smoothly, installing the Patch3 over the current VT3.

Don