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View Full Version : 3ds max style EDGE support?



Ade
03-22-2004, 05:08 AM
Who here has used the edges in 3ds and have found em such a time saver and would love to see real edges in Lightwave?
Its great for modeling architectual and cars etc..
I used to box model in 3ds but like lightwave more but miss edges.

Nemoid
03-22-2004, 08:07 AM
True, but they're not part of Lw code from the start as an item, so its really difficult to implement edges.
Unfortunately, Lw code recognizes points. and that's all.

As an example, the same thing is valid for real undos for every thing you can do in the app. since this was NOT planned from the start while coding the app, adding them means you have to rework the code.

that's why we have multiple undos ONLY for transformation tools in Layout now.

Ade
03-22-2004, 08:10 AM
3ds is the biggest mess in code ever, they never planned edges from start but it has it, so does c4d in its limiting way...

Karmacop
03-22-2004, 08:19 AM
defining edges in lightwave would be easy .. it'd be just like a 2 point poly ... but there must be other internal issues.

Ade
03-22-2004, 08:23 AM
Wings 3d and 3ds do edges right, c4d doesnt...BUT atleast they have started to incorporate them.

Im sure Lightwave can feature edges, BUT my hopes were crushed when i noticed not even modo has em, I really hope Newtek can lead the way and do a kik *** edge incorporation.

Nemoid
03-22-2004, 03:54 PM
3D studio was rewritten at the time of Max. Lw was NEVER rewritten. ( the 6.0 "rewrite" was not a full one at all)

i dunno exactly if from a programming POV its easy or not, but i suspect introducing edges is not so easy.

this doesn't mean i wouldn't like to have them. :)

Nicodemus
03-23-2004, 11:48 AM
I thought 8 was supposed to have edge tools.

~L~

mkiii
03-23-2004, 01:38 PM
It has some edge tools - but they don't really operate on edges. Look at the videos. You'll still be selecting edges by their end points.

I find this a bit odd, since the Dstorm edge remover lets you select an edge directly.

Nemoid
03-23-2004, 01:49 PM
edge tools doesn't mean edge support as an item.

Sorry, but i'm not a big fan of edges .

but they are very useful for edge creasing, allowing you to obtain sharp edges without alot of geometry. oh, and edge weighting too.

mkiii
03-23-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Ade
3ds is the biggest mess in code ever, they never planned edges from start but it has it, so does c4d in its limiting way...

I'm pretty certain that Max has always implimented edges.
C48 8.x has quite nice edge tools.

Doran
03-28-2004, 09:37 AM
I swear there should be a law requiring any user making a suggestion as to what new feature should be added to Lightwave be an exclusive user of Lightwave for 5 years or more.

I'm so tired of hearing non-LW specific product jargon and takes about how Lightwave stacks up to the other packages tools. When I hear a suggestion I'm looking for two things; a clear description of why the tool is needed, what problem it will solve - and a good enough understanding of Lightwave to come up with a Lightwave solution to the problem... not a MAx, C4d, Wings3d, Truespace, Rhino, maya, etc solution. I don't use those packages. Telling me, "LW needs to have a tool like MAX's 'snazzy button' tool" is a worthless to me.

I don't want to hear the name of the button in another package followed by lustful ramblings for an alternate package of power. Focus on Lightwave 3d, please.

It's the same way I feel when I hear about integration. Integration is not a problem that needs to be solved; it's a suggestion based on the visual function on another product. Instead, tell what specific problem non-integration in causing and come up with a Lightwave solution to that problem.. Then I will at least respect the request even if I disagree.

I'm not ranting against anyone specifically here.. Just after reading this forum for an afternoon my spleen reached critical mass and needed a vent somewhere.

Yog
03-28-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Doran
I swear there should be a law requiring any user making a suggestion as to what new feature should be added to Lightwave be an exclusive user of Lightwave for 5 years or more.

I'm so tired of hearing non-LW specific product jargon and takes about how Lightwave stacks up to the other packages tools. When I hear a suggestion I'm looking for two things; a clear description of why the tool is needed, what problem it will solve - and a good enough understanding of Lightwave to come up with a Lightwave solution to the problem... not a MAx, C4d, Wings3d, Truespace, Rhino, maya, etc solution. I don't use those packages. Telling me, "LW needs to have a tool like MAX's 'snazzy button' tool" is a worthless to me.


I guess I qualify to give comment by your definition as I have been using LW for well over 5 years, a lot of that time exclusively, but I do find your arguments non-sensical and close minded.

I know some of the other posters are like myself, we have used LW for a long time and for one reason or another we find we either want to or are forced to learn other software, normally for work reasons. And often that leads to a "Paul on the road to Demascus" situation, when we find that a task that took a lot of pre-planning or several steps in LW is an absurdly easy task in another package.
Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth and jumping up and down on their keyboard, I would say that very often the reverse is also true, LW's ability to swap between poly work and sub-D work is still envied by many.

So why shouldn't we make reference to features in other software, especially in cases where LW has nothing similar ?
You say you don't want to hear about the features in other programs because you don't use them, then how do you know their implementation isn't better ? Wouldn't you want better tools ?

From LW8 onward Newtek will be able to say that LW comes with a selection of "Edge Tools", but anyone that has used edges in programs that implement edges properly, like MAX, Wings, XSI (I haven't used Maya) will tell you that those in LW are a pretty pale imitation and only replicate some specific uses and not the many other less spectacular but even more useful use's.
But as you onle want to "Focus on Lightwave 3d", you wouldn't want to hear that I guess.

You suggest that features should only be put forward by people who have used LW "exclusively".
I would suggest that comments would be as benificial, if not more so, from people who have used more than one 3D package for an extended period of time.

Lightwolf
03-28-2004, 01:11 PM
10 years of using LW, exclusively, and still counting...

I want integration and edges (yeuck, the 'I' and the 'E' word), do I qualify? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

jin choung
03-29-2004, 12:48 AM
well over 5 years,

started with 3d studio, use maya regularly at work.

i am a believer in STANDARDIZATION.

eccentricity without overwhelming and empirical benefit is not a good thing. just ask HASH. it's use of highly non standard patches and insistence on 'no polys' has basically cut it off from any possibility of ever becoming integrated in real world work environments - from games to pro film work.

there is no LOGICAL REASON not to have edges. everybody else does. there is nothing ESSENTIAL, any elegant justification in graphics theory, for lw to just have VERTS and POLYS as selection entities.

if there are a great many users in the cg world who can comfortably use EDGES, we should give it to them. and just cuz we HAVE edges doesn't mean that old hat lw'ers MUST USE THEM....

lw has an interesting and good set of tools for generating SDS cages because almost all the legacy tools result in a quad mesh.

manipulation of edges can often result in lots of triangles and lots of ngons... but this is often highly desirable for people working with low poly meshes for games and such.

lw is not by any stretch of the imagination, 'industry standard'. but i like bringing in my copy of lw to use in a variety of work environments. so the more lw can retain the things that it does well, it should become as friendly to other related applications as possible.

along those lines, it would be very nice if lw used the catmull clark sds algorithm incorporated in RENDERMAN and adopted its method of uv mapping sds cages and WEIGHTING EDGES for creases and sharpness....

industry standard in CGI is ultimately how compatible you are with REYES renderers like renderman, bmrt and even free renderers like AQSIS.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and if we can standardize terminology too, that would be great:

no more 'texture smoothing'... call it MIP MAPPING....

no more 'surface'... call it MATERIAL....

jin

p.s. not to mention that GOURAUD SMOOTHING should NOT be a property of a lw 'surface'. they don't have anything essential to do with each other. especially for games, it would be MUCH better if this was EXTRACTED as a surface property and we just had the ability to tag edges HARD or SOFT as in maya. (max's own smoothing groups is a clumsy implementation too imo... maya's is much more accessible and essential.)

Panikos
03-29-2004, 03:01 AM
As far as I remember, even Impulse Imagine 2.0 had edges, and that was in 1992.

Nemoid
03-29-2004, 05:49 AM
Probably the original Lw programmers didn't bother to have them in Lw. that's way its not so easy to inplement them.
this doen't mean its impossible, though. edges are a need into a modern package for sure. even if i don't like them as an item to manipulate (even because in Maya they can cause some difficulity when joining pieces of geometry) they are very useful and the way to go to use less geometry in several kinda models.

julos
03-30-2004, 10:52 PM
Edges are a must in Lightwave, if you want to see why Edges and Ngons in Isoline mode are such a time saver you have to try Silo 1.2.

zeno
04-06-2004, 05:32 PM
yes.. i agree with julos.
N-Gon and Edges
Silo subdivs not only faced polygons, but lines (2point polygons) too, so we can treat lines like Nurbs Curve. and we can make lines from edges of polygons with the same point controls.