PDA

View Full Version : NEWTEK needs to communicate!!



theo
03-18-2004, 03:21 PM
My patience IS wearing thin with Newtek- I think it is time for these guys to start shedding some light on WHEN LW8 will be available.

If they have any respect for their customer base they ought to- I don't care if it is two months or six months- LET US KNOW!!! So we can make plans accordingly.

It appears to me the average LW user is just hardcore loyal- this is something Newtek need not take advantage of.

I am tired of everybody making excuses for LW- Sure we all love Newtek but they need to be held a little more accountable than they have been!

That's my opinion- like it or not!

Beamtracer
03-18-2004, 03:37 PM
Newtek communicates pretty well. Better than other software companies that I have dealings with.

You'll rarely find a software company that will put an exact date on the release of future software.

Lightwave 8 is not far away. I think you should relax about it.

Cman
03-18-2004, 04:36 PM
Yeah, don't ask questions!!

Afterall, Newtek took our money for Lightwave, and promised to send us a product at some future date that they refuse to reveal for unnamed reasons, which they also won't reveal.

Why would you question that? :rolleyes:

theo
03-18-2004, 04:53 PM
Exactly my point- so we're supposed to sit here like goods boys and girls with no questions at all huh?

No offense Beamtracer but you are, after all, talking to people whi make a living with software and I should think that at least some of us are aware of how software companies operate. Listen, Newtek is a great company but they need to do more in the way of communication- I'm sorry friend. This update has been a LONG time coming- not just a couple of months.

hrgiger
03-18-2004, 04:58 PM
Well, I'm not of the position that I think I need to be demanding anything from Newtek but I am getting to the point where I woud like a little more information about a release time window.

Cman
03-18-2004, 04:58 PM
It's an unfortunate situation to be involved in.
Luckily, I told my bosses when we bought the upgrade that there is no telling when it was coming - but the DFX+ benne was worth the wait - so I'm not being pressured.
But it's still annoying to me.

Imagine if you'd bought dinner at an expensive restaurant and they told you it would be late, then several hours later they refused to give you any idea when it'd be done AND wouldn't give a refund?

I don't think you'd be too happy.

Beamtracer
03-18-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by theo
No offense Beamtracer but you are, after all, talking to people whi make a living with software and I should think that at least some of us are aware of how software companies operate. Hehehe! If you know how software companies operate you will remember the long gestation periods of other 3D software like XSI or Universe. In the case of Universe it took years, and they also took pre-orders.

Newtek really does communicate better than most other software companies. I hear much more from Newtek than I hear from Adobe and others. It's just that they haven't answered the particular question you want to know... when will LW8 be released.

Newtek can't win by pre-announcing a release date, in case something unexpected happens. If they miss their date, everyone would get more worked up than before. I think they should stay quiet until it is ready.

Vincent Brumbac
03-18-2004, 05:38 PM
"So we can make plans accordingly"

What plans are you making? Entering a race without a car?


Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

cresshead
03-18-2004, 05:40 PM
multi post so deleted....sorry!

cresshead
03-18-2004, 05:40 PM
it seems pretty obvious that there are issues that are delaying the release of lw 8...and my personal assumption is that of OSX mac version of lw7.5 and possibly lw 8 needed to be fixed by APPLE before lw 8 can be brought out...something that the latest osx has fixed according to the mac forum in newtek...obviously newtek would like a unified release with lw8 on mac and pc being offered on the same day...people here have already commented that the intel version has been ready for some time and newtek were waiting upon APPLE to get their osx house in order...which they have done this week by all accounts...

other vendors such as discreet release such things as combustion 3 on intel then sort out the mac version several months later...

newtek have a good opportunity to make some big waves with lw 8 so they look to want to release lw 8 on mac and intel at the same time and also have the current WAVE of good pr from FPrime as well...

i think we're about set for lw 8 at the end of this month or april.

just hang in there...it will come out eventually!...when it's ready.

cresshead
03-18-2004, 05:40 PM
multi post so deleted....sorry!

themaxx
03-18-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
You'll rarely find a software company that will put an exact date on the release of future software.

that is simply not true.


Originally posted by Beamtracer
Lightwave 8 is not far away.

how do you know?


Originally posted by cresshead
people here have already commented that the intel version has been ready for some time and newtek were waiting upon APPLE to get their osx house in order


who said that? are they a credible source of insider newtek info?

themaxx
03-18-2004, 06:11 PM
Before Christmas, Chuck said:


Originally posted by Chuck
We appreciate your patience as we put the final, finishing touches on LightWave 8.

After the holidays, we'll have more information about the LightWave 3D 8 shipping schedule.


i guess i do have more more information now. i now know that it isn't going to ship in january or february.

cresshead
03-18-2004, 06:14 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cresshead
people here have already commented that the intel version has been ready for some time and newtek were waiting upon APPLE to get their osx house in order

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



who said that? are they a credible source of insider newtek info?


no they were just like you and me..people on the forum...they maybe under nda or may just think it for whatever resons theyhave ...

this won't help much but shouting and moaning will not get lw8 released any sooner...i do understand that we would all like lw8 right now...i bought the upgrade in sept 2003...but newtek are hardly likeley to holdup a release just to annoy us....

there are proper reasons out there why it's taking so long..maybe bugs...maybe features they want to get running..maybe the osx thing...maybe f prime just comming out..maybe printing the manual and the install cdrom discs....
maybe a good opportunity to showcase lw 8 in a "show" such as NAB...

when the time is right lw8 will appear..then the fun starts on when will lw8.x come out with f prime SDK fix or the OSX 64 bit recompile or a linux render node..etc....

i'm sure newtek does kow what it's doing...so far lw 8 looks to be one of the best releases...up there with 5.6 with it's hypervoxels!

themaxx
03-18-2004, 06:22 PM
this has been said before, but it's obviously not getting through so i'll say it again. no one is asking newtek to change their schedule or release it sooner. people are asking for status information. seems like a reasonable request for those of us who ordered it 8 or 9 months ago.

cresshead
03-18-2004, 06:25 PM
lw8 status: "not ready to ship as yet"

happy?


sorry couldn't resist!

...feel free to hit me over the head with a fresh turbert and some seaweed....


...let's see what happens on march 22 2004.

prospector
03-18-2004, 06:28 PM
OK..Now it's my turn :mad:

Anyone that knows how I feel about Newtek (from following threads since it's conception) will find this hard to believe.

With the exception of the rants about the CG on the VT and some rants about radius morphing, I have been in Newteks corner since Ver 3, have never been worried about the company making a really fine product for the price we have to pay, have gotten others to get into the LW family by getting the VT (first the Amiga, then the PC ver), and never never under any circumstances ever said that another program or company was better than Newtek.

Up to now I have been extremly satisfied with Tim Jennisons original vision for Newtek and it's products.

BUT.......

What is happening :confused:

We were never left out in the dark as is happening now.
There was always some mention of a product coming up, SOMETHING, When the Amiga Toasters were going to run late, there was some mention of why or what was newly added to make the wait longer.
When we went from 5 to 6 there was mention of problems because of the complete rewrite..SOMETHING....

Even if they never gave a firm date (and they never have for any release), they at least TRIED to keep us abreast of the situation.

I am in deep sorrow.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for my best companies to do buisness with,
Newtek is dropping from 9.5 (with the above problems taking the .5 off) to like a 8 (which to me is low)

I'm not asking for a date of release (tho it would be nice even tho you have never given one that I can remember in 12 years)
Just an UPdate, other than "were working on it"

Are you down to only the manual left?
Are you down to just waiting for the CDs to be burned?
Are there major or minor problems in the code?
Are you putting in something so amazing that it will blow every other 3D program back to the stone age?
Are there competing ideas in the front office?
Is Tim going to retire, and your all thinking of a way to break the news that this is the last ver of LW?

The silence from Newtek at this time is defening........
and disheartning.

:confused:

Ade
03-18-2004, 07:04 PM
I believe its all done and ready.
BUT-

1) Newtek is waiting for GDC to do its rounds

2) Newtek is waiting for the right day to get bang for buck in its launch. i.e. NAB


Why would you wait this long, delay and delay only to release it on a normal day?
Then again I could be wrong? (NAB too far away for me)

jr_sunshine
03-18-2004, 07:38 PM
GDC 2004 is March 22 - 26.

So... It would make sense if they are waiting for the Conference to make the splash.

It also sounds like quite a few would be upset if NewTek waits until NAB. I hope they don't delay until NAB just to make a marketing splash. Doing so would be so unprofessional.

Cman
03-18-2004, 07:58 PM
Or how about Siggraph in August, for a REALLY big splash? ;)

Ade
03-18-2004, 08:19 PM
I like the NAB idea because Boradcasting is Lightwaves Thoroughbred.

Also I suspect new G5's by then at dual 3ghz...weeeeeeeeeee.....

I want Lightwave 8 to be the biggest splash ever..

TSpyrison
03-18-2004, 08:28 PM
Rabble rabble rabble....

Rabble rabble rabble....

Rabble rabble rabble....




:rolleyes:

Ade
03-18-2004, 08:36 PM
true...... True.....

themaxx
03-18-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
...let's see what happens on march 22 2004.

that's what i was thinking, up until today when chuck said:


...and we will try to give you a little advance warning when are are sure just exactly when we'll be able to ship.

unless "a little advance notice" is measured in hours, it doesn't sound like a march 22 release. i hope i'm wrong.

Cman
03-18-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by TSpyrison
Rabble rabble rabble....

Rabble rabble rabble....

Rabble rabble rabble....




:rolleyes:

:p

Zach
03-18-2004, 09:57 PM
All those videos Proton's been putting up are special FX videos (i.e. not real).

There is no lightwave and there is no newtek.
As a matter of fact, you are not reading this post.
As a matter of fact, there is no post.

Oh, by the way....

Nothing is real either (i.e. that'd be you my friend).

If you want software that is constantly being updated and released, why don't you use xsi or max, or hell... even Cinema 4D.

Use those for upgrade path-based software, and use LightWave for fun.

Man LightWave is fun.
I have to use Maya at work.
Maya's pretty crazy, but not as fun. Oh yeah, Alias is upgrading Maya next month too.

Hervé
03-18-2004, 11:32 PM
:rolleyes: :o

badllarma
03-19-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Cman
Or how about Siggraph in August, for a REALLY big splash? ;)

Didn't they do that last year :rolleyes: :mad:

hrgiger
03-19-2004, 02:14 AM
I'm fine with the late release but I'm going to be pretty upset if it's not released until Siggraph.

samartin
03-19-2004, 02:50 AM
Well I am so glad that I didn't take this offer up, my boss woulda been screaming at me right now. It doesn't take much to give some sort of ballpark figure, saves opening of threads about speculative dates etc...

I think the marketing strategy of NT needs some kind of overhaul, they are just too laid back and need to stop this selective reading, I feel sorry for you guys holding on everyday so far. I hope you all get LW8 very very soon...

madrenderman
03-19-2004, 03:49 AM
ah ah ah
oh guys if nt delay to fix mac os X version we need to attend years.... please NTstart to ship lw, then with a big planet of betatester start to rebuild a corect software for osX...

anyway i read that lw 8 will be shipped for 22 march in other post, i hope....


Originally posted by cresshead
it seems pretty obvious that there are issues that are delaying the release of lw 8...and my personal assumption is that of OSX mac version of lw7.5 and possibly lw 8 needed to be fixed by APPLE before lw 8 can be brought out...something that the latest osx has fixed according to the mac forum in newtek...obviously newtek would like a unified release with lw8 on mac and pc being offered on the same day...people here have already commented that the intel version has been ready for some time and newtek were waiting upon APPLE to get their osx house in order...which they have done this week by all accounts...

other vendors such as discreet release such things as combustion 3 on intel then sort out the mac version several months later...

newtek have a good opportunity to make some big waves with lw 8 so they look to want to release lw 8 on mac and intel at the same time and also have the current WAVE of good pr from FPrime as well...

i think we're about set for lw 8 at the end of this month or april.

just hang in there...it will come out eventually!...when it's ready.

LFGabel
03-19-2004, 04:04 AM
I think LW's release is being delayed so that it works correctly with FPrime on all levels....

... ducks as various heavy objects hurled my way...

:D

Beamtracer
03-19-2004, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by Ade
1) Newtek is waiting for GDC to do its rounds

2) Newtek is waiting for the right day to get bang for buck in its launch. i.e. NAB I think you're right, Ade. Newtek should wait until one of these major trade shows comes around before releasing LW8. It will get more publicity then.


Originally posted by madrenderman
oh guys if nt delay to fix mac os X version we need to attend years.... please NTstart to ship lw, then with a big planet of betatester start to rebuild a corect software for osX...
Newtek has always done the right thing by releasing the Mac and Windows versions simultaneously. This is the best way to do it.

Why would they delay the OS X version, just to get the Windows one out quicker? You may not be aware that when Lightwave 7 was released the OS X version outsold the Windows version. The Mac OS X version is a major priority around here.

gavinfx
03-19-2004, 05:07 AM
I preordered my LW8 during the first week of preselling it. I certainly am very disappointed at the Newtek's blatent "sudden delay" in LW8's release. Seems to me that Discreet was releasing 3DSM6 back during the preordering time.

I was one of those people who ordered LW8 because it was cheaper than the competition and was being released around December (ha!). I was seriously considering 3DSM6 and probably would have gotten it (due to much better character animation setup and interface), if it weren't for LW8's original December release date. Being that it's March, I'm annoyed that Newtek has been so silent about a new release date.

I'll be honest and say it has some GREAT new features, but I'm still a little ticked that we're not hearing anything about the release date.

Newtek, you really do have an excellent product, but this seemed to me like a way to keep people (like me) from trading in Lightwave 7.5 to get a $1000 discount on 3DSM6 last year. And the fact that you waited till the last few weeks before the December release date to announce that it would be delayed makes me think this was a big marketing ploy having to do with my last sentence.

The funny part is, I'll probably forget my frustration when I finally do get LW8(!). Amen.

pauland
03-19-2004, 05:46 AM
I guess Newtek will probably release when they can get maximum publicity, so it should be at a trade fair. We've all waited all this time so, a few more weeks won't hurt.

Ultimately, what's good for Newtek will be good for it's customers. Pity to waste a release for an ordinary weekday when nobody would notice, when you can have a blaze of publicity at the expense of your competitors.

Paul

jr_sunshine
03-19-2004, 05:52 AM
Wow. This is a serious change from early 2004.

NewTek... hellooooooooooo

Are you listenting to this thread. I bet there are more who feel just like this. And people who have been defending you to the hilt earlier are beginning to get annoyed too.

Some definitive (not cloudy) status is the right thing to do.

Some people have been waiting close to a year now when the ASSUMPTION was that the product was close and would be out by the end of 2003 (and by that it was believed to be Oct 2003).

So I hope Newtek understands we all appreciate the freebies (DFX+ and UVEdit Pro) but it is LW we love and it is LW we are wanting to have in our grubby hands. My guess is we would have been happy with knowing the timeline for release instead of getting UVEdit Pro. I know I would.

mrunion
03-19-2004, 05:58 AM
First, let me say that I have opinions like everyone else. This note is my opinion. That's all it is. Also, I am only a hobbyist. I make no money from using Lightwave, though someday that all may change.

I am disappointed at the delay of lightwave like most everyone else is. I'm not angry about it, just frustrated that it is taking so long. I am pleased to have gotten DFX+ and the other "gift" we got a couple of weeks ago. I have the utmost respect for Chuck and Proton and all the NewTek team members.

Unfortunately I am trapped by my own understanding of the situation. I am a programmer by trade -- I develop code, consult, etc., all for the company I work for. I work for a company whose sole focus and job is to write code and do newtorking for other companies. I have been programming for almost 20 years. I have a little bit of experience in the programming realm.

I say this because even though programming is not an EXACT science, it CAN be something that can be properly estimated. There are many variables to consider, but when considered correctly and appropriately, ideas can be narrowed down as to when deliverables will arrive. Here is my point. Assume I have 100 things on my programming "to do" list. I tell my project manager it will take six months. Six months later I

have only finished 50 of them. We know the following:

1. I am late.
2. I have only finished HALF of the work.
3. Theoretically it will take me another 6 months.

Granted, we are assuming the tasks are all just about equal in scope and complexity (rarely the case in the real world). But the point is that if you know where you started, and you know where you've been, and you know how long that has taken, it doesn't take much to *estimate* the "what is left" question.

I'm sure NewTek has a bad taste in their mouths because of missing their first estimated deadline. It's no fun to miss a deadline! I know, I've done it. But our clients have to have some sort of timeline to go by. Some clients have a date they need something, some have a budet they can't go over, and some just want an estimate toget an idea and then will only pay +/- 10% of that. In all cases it falls on the developer(s) to estimate, the project managers to review, and the boss to approve the project.

My concern is that one of the following happened:

1. Unexpected code issues came up that affected an added feature. Something like, "to do A we had to change B, and C had to change, D broke, etc.".
2. The complexity of the code has proved to be such that it was difficult to gain a knowledge of, or it was written in an overly-complex manner that delayed actual work being started.
3. A resource problem of some sort.
4. External driving influences (books, plugins from third parties, licensing agreements, platform issues, etc.) has caused a delay/change.

Since it was stated that the software had been in BETA last year, I have trouble thinking it was #2. I really hope it isn't #3. I -- speaking as a programmer -- just don't understand how NewTek cannot *know within a margin of error* what an estimated release date is. They may choose not to SAY when that timeframe is, but not KNOWING it would definitly make me nervous.

For those that are wanting the software because they have a business to run, and have made some decisions based on the release of Lightwave 8, I applaud you. You have taken an unknown and factored it into your planning. That is being proactive. Bank-rolling the entire business on yet-to-be-released softawre is NOT the same as making plans for using it. I'm sure the businesses that have factored in LW8 have contingency plans. As I said above, I am a hobbyist so I am only affected by my wants, and I want it. I definintely don't need it, and I am doing pretty good at remaining patient and optimistic. (And I hope they are not just waiting for some trade show to release something that's ready. To me that would be like saying, "tough luck if you've paid already, we want to lure in the unpaid people as we prefer their business." I'm sure this is not the case, though.)

NewTek, please understand that I am only expressing opinions. I respect your rights to do anything you want with your software. I am very gratefull for DFX+, et. al, because those are tools I would have never had otherwise. I do encourage the "powers that be" there at NewTek to make sure those that are running the Lightwave coding stuff can at least give NewTek and idea about when the software is ready. I fear that if, internal to NewTek, there are big questionmarks on delivery date estimates, the project management has been less than adequate. That is an opinion soley based on MY experience. I have been a project manager before, and it is not an easy job. They deserve whatever they reap in benefits, pay, rewards, etc. They HAVE to commit to unknowns on an almost daily basis.

NetTek, you have my support. If I can do anything, PLEASE don't hesitate to contact me. I can write documentation for you, format HTML pages for you, write code if you have specs or someone to explain what is needed. The company I work for would love to opportunity to help you out -- even though they are not a primarily graphics company. We do have some of the country's best graphics designers available, though, but you probably have your own people in that arena.

Bottom line: I am not angry, just a little frustrated. I'm sure you guys are the same, if not more, level of frustrated. I encourage you to ask if you think there is anything at all that I or the people I work for could do to help you out. I mean it. I also don't mean that condesendingly. If I were near the programmers, I'd come bring them lunch everyday, wash their cars, do their grocery shopping -- whatever would let them concentrate on their task more. Since I'm in Tennessee, I really can't do that, but I just wanted you guys to know that I am saying in the humblest way: "If you need me and I can help, I am here."

mattclary
03-19-2004, 06:12 AM
I think Newtek and Luxology are trying to wait the other one out. Whoever blinks first and releases the new software, the other one will release theirs the day after to steal their thunder.

;) Just joking

pauland
03-19-2004, 06:13 AM
Matt (mr union),

I just had visions of Newtek being formed of as a part time cottage industry that has never built software before.

I suspect from your offer of help that you have succumed to the 'throw more resources at it' view, often shared by managers who havn't read 'the mythical man month'.

I think that Newteks release woes are probably influenced as much by development personnel changes, finances, internal politics, licencing issues, etc as any development methodologies they choose.

You aren't the only one to have worked in the software industry for a long time, though you do seem to have it down to a fine art.

My experience has been that often software devlopers succeed in spite of management, rather than because of it. If you have management that knows what it's doing, you are a lucky guy.

Paul

Chuck
03-19-2004, 08:05 AM
We've been quiet the past few weeks because the folks who normally participate here have been and continue to be fully involved in working on completing LightWave [8] and the tasks needed to ship LightWave [8]. Apologies, but this tends to be the case the closer a project gets to completion. Lots of folks here have been burning the midnight oil to get this ready for all the folks anxiously awaiting LightWave [8]. But we're also being very careful to get things right, to make this the best release we've had. We're very close, we do know when we think we'll be able to ship, but we feel it is really not useful to make a public estimate. It seems better to us to just say something once we know we are actually, finally, ready to ship a great new version of LightWave. We hope that you, our valued customers, will consider this point of view and bear with us a little longer, until we can make that happy announcement.

jr_sunshine
03-19-2004, 08:14 AM
Chuck,

Can you at least say the software is complete and ready for pressing? This would at least make us feel like the software is out of the developers hand and just in the process of packaging and such.

gavinfx
03-19-2004, 08:18 AM
Alright, Chuck, I accept your reasoning and in return I'm granting you a week to get LW8 to me...

Just kidding. Thanks for the feedback. Good to know you guys are listening.

nawDsign
03-19-2004, 08:32 AM
the folks who normally participate here have been and continue to be fully involved in working on completing LightWave [8] and the tasks needed to ship LightWave [8]


Chuck said they are getting ready to ship, so I'm assuming it's out of the developers' hands? I hope.. hehe

Yog
03-19-2004, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by nawDsign
Chuck said they are getting ready to ship, so I'm assuming it's out of the developers' hands? I hope.. hehe

I think if you try hard enough you can make the quote mean anything you like

i.e.
"the folks who normally participate here have been and CONTINUE to be fully involved in working on COMPLETING LightWave [8] AND the tasks needed to ship LightWave [8] "

These three words seem to suggest LW8 is still being developed as well as work going on to aid shipping (gathering addresses, preparing packages, etc).

mrunion
03-19-2004, 09:21 AM
Pauland, you have excellent points. You have struck me as a wise and knowledgable person. Thanks for the feedback.

Chuck, thanks for taking the time to give us that feedback. I am comforted by the fact that internally the ship is still a tight ship. I respect your (NewTek's) decision to not release any more information at this point.

I'm still frustrated -- like when it's 10pm and your motherboard went out and you need to call tech support, but you can't until nine in the morning. But I've lived through things before, and on the "life scale", not getting software doesn't equate to being a major problem (no offense).

Thanks guys. Thanks all.

theo
03-19-2004, 09:40 AM
Chuck still has not said much but has communicated with the family and I will do my part to commend him on this.

There's no doubt about LW users and creators are just a highly respectable bunch of individuals and when we squabble or complain normally it is in a family-like mentality- this is good and can be productive.

So I guess guys if we can continue to hang tight and support the Newtek folks in the end we'll all be reasonably satisfied.

I will say this, LW has a colorful and profound history in CG and this product deserves to be the best and I for one am completely behind the decisions this team has to make- Though I must say that I still would appreciate a time window of anything.

pauland
03-19-2004, 09:41 AM
Good post Chuck.

Paul

lasvideo
03-19-2004, 10:25 AM
The closest indication I have gleaned on the LW8 release is this quote from WorldWare Publishing...the folks who are releasing the "1001 Killer Tips for LW8".
Here is a quote on the book release date , which many have guessed is in sync with the software release....

"We hope to be shipping the books out around April 16th but with the pre-orders we have it will take a week for us to get them all out..."
Draw your own conclusions.

ufo3d
03-19-2004, 10:43 AM
I just want to know whether LW 8 can be released this quarter , or next quarter.

js33
03-19-2004, 12:01 PM
I would expect a release at NAB April 17-22 or maybe just before that. At this point no other date would make sense.

Cheers,
JS

prospector
03-19-2004, 12:45 PM
So..it's we're working on it.


Yog, you might be right..it's still in coders hands.

Not, the manuals are being printed and we are waiting for them
OR
The CDs are being burned and we are waiting for them
OR
We are scheduling the UPS guys to get trucks here to pick up programs
OR
we are compiling mailing lists to ship out
OR
we are waiting for the trade show

:(

Wasn't expecting firm date
or even a possable date
just an UPdate.

jr_sunshine
03-19-2004, 12:52 PM
js33,

I would disagree slightly in that the Game Developers Conference, March 22 - 26, would make sense too. All of the hoopla about DOOM 3 and it using LW for art and levels would enforce that too.

Adrian Lopez
03-19-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by pauland
I suspect from your offer of help that you have succumed to the 'throw more resources at it' view, often shared by managers who havn't read 'the mythical man month'.I think it's kinda funny how "The Mythical Man Month" has itself developed a rather mythical character. People love to bring up the book (or worse, its title) in response to some thorny management issue, but they rarely ever make an effort to question the book's underlying assumptions.

I haven't read the book, so rather than argue about a book I'm unfamiliar with I point you to an article written by Steve McConnell titled Brooks' Law Repealed? (http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ieeesoftware/eic08.htm).

pauland
03-19-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
I think it's kinda funny how "The Mythical Man Month" has itself developed a rather mythical character. People love to bring up the book (or worse, its title) in response to some thorny management issue, but they rarely ever make an effort to question the book's underlying assumptions.

I haven't read the book, so rather than argue about a book I'm unfamiliar with I point you to an article written by Steve McConnell titled Brooks' Law Repealed? (http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ieeesoftware/eic08.htm).

Thanks for the reference it was interesting. I think it centered on whether projects could reliably estimate how far along to completion they were, something whose accuracy can be difficullt to diagnose in chaotic projects, less problematic in others. Clearly there is a cutoff, 'late' in the project when adding staff is counter productive.

I make my comment because I would imagine that LW8, for everyone's sake, must be *very* late in the project cycle, so more workers (and I don't mean unskilled staff, etc) don't necessarily help.

Good reference though I still think the Mythical Man Month still holds here!

Have a good weekend.

Paul

Adrian Lopez
03-19-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by pauland
I make my comment because I would imagine that LW8, for everyone's sake, must be *very* late in the project cycle, so more workers (and I don't mean unskilled staff, etc) don't necessarily help.That's a good point, and in considering it I am lead to believe that Newtek might not benefit from or even desire any help at this stage of development. It's just that the book's title comes up so often in seemingly non-relevant contexts that I've become a little sensitive to the book's most popular claims (as I gather from reading about the book, rather than the book itself).

On the other hand, even so late in the project I think there are some situations where outside help could be useful and warranted. It depends, of course, on the nature of the problem, and having no idea what kinds problems Newtek is having with LW8 I am limited to saying that some problems require not so much familiarity with a particular instance of a problem as they require significant experience with a particular class of problems. If Newtek's problems are anything like that then perhaps it's possible they could still benefit from some expert help.

pauland
03-19-2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez
If Newtek's problems are anything like that then perhaps it's possible they could still benefit from some expert help.

I think that despite some of the comments made by their detractors, Newtek are professional enough to know what help they need, and able to find and pay for it if need be.

Many people bemoan Newtek in one way or another, whilst I and others might envy their success, because they certainly are successful.

Paul

theo
03-19-2004, 03:37 PM
Adrian and Pauland-
The points you guys are asserting are predicated on the assumption that the Newtek project is struggling with a major project management issue. Could be- I seriously hope not, because I think most of us know what a nightmare situation this can be.

My take doesn't really matter here, obviously- but my marketing background does lead me to believe that if these guys are smart, which they obviously are, LW8 will be released at a highly optimal time when visibility and anticipation are at a climactic peak. Which this peak may involve several factors, one of course is the Wordware book or one of the important high profile shows such as NAB. This concentration of focus is tapped into and designed to raise the energy level of the customer base to a fevered pitch which is very, very important for properly positioning the perception of the product in the minds of the existing and potential client as well as all of the periphery visibility vehicles that are a part of the marketing machinery.

You saw the viral marketing that FPrime generated and this forum alone was full of chatter for days until FPrime launched- this increase in visibility is crucial for proper product positioning and profitability.

This, I hope is the holdup.

Beamtracer
03-19-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
We're very close, we do know when we think we'll be able to ship, but we feel it is really not useful to make a public estimate. It seems better to us to just say something once we know we are actually, finally, ready to ship a great new version of LightWave.
Chuck is a great communicator for Newtek. I think the statement "we're very close" to releasing LW8 is all that could (and should) be said at this time.

We know that LW8 will be here soon. Don't expect Newtek to put an exact date on it.

mouse_art
03-19-2004, 03:50 PM
Me trust NT. :cool:

theo
03-19-2004, 03:51 PM
No one is expecting an exact date and that wasn't the point of this thread- just a possible time frame of however many months or weeks would be nice.

pauland
03-19-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by theo
Adrian and Pauland-
The points you guys are asserting are predicated on the assumption that the Newtek project is struggling with a major project management issue.

I also doubt at this stage it is the case. I'd say it was fairly certainly not the case if I hadn't thought LW8 was very close to release at the end of 2003.

We've seen so much good stuff about LW8, I'm sure they're almost there and as you say, it's a marketing requirement to wait till the trade show.

Paul

Cman
03-19-2004, 04:44 PM
But if they are going to release at the GDC, why not just say, "We're going to release at the GDC."

"It seems better to us to just say something once we know we are actually, finally, ready to ship a great new version of LightWave." = LW8 is not ready.

NT could release at GDC or Siggraph or as a "great New Year's gift for 2005!", or next week. So far as we know, and has been said, any of those is possible...

theo
03-19-2004, 05:11 PM
Well it really can be a razor's edge decision on whether to give release details on a product or not. Now that I am thinking this through in more of a marketing fashion than a production environment fashion it really is starting to make sense to me.

The Passion of Christ film is a case in point and an interesting marketing marvel as well- and anyone with any cahonies in Hollywood will admit this as they are already- now that this film may become the highest grossing film in history.

So this fevered pitch that I have actually fed into with this thread, as well as other fine pondering posters in the thread, will have lent a generous helping hand to this marketing concept. This kind of energy can be successfully manufactured to the extent that it is is with the powerful real-time liquid communication of the internet. WOW!

We are being played like a fine-tuned violin my little B-sharps.

themaxx
03-19-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by theo
We are being played like a fine-tuned violin my little B-sharps.

they're about to break a string.

WilliamVaughan
03-19-2004, 05:17 PM
lol

theo
03-19-2004, 05:39 PM
Hmmm Proton, I detect that LOL as a rather coy LOL... a LOL that is accompanying Newtekian bodies on their way to the local federally insured fund depositing institution.:D :D

Lightwavers all- we gotta love these guys huh?

jevinstudios
03-19-2004, 09:08 PM
It's been relayed to me that the release should begin shipping in a couple of weeks. I don't know if that is a firm "set-in-stone" estimate or not, but I do anticipate getting an announcement very soon. Why NewTek is so silent, tho, is a big mystery to me. Who knowz -- maybe they have something truly spectacular up their sleeves? Wouldn't that be totally KEWL?

(I will not elaborate on the source of this estimate, tho, so please don't ask)

Wade
03-19-2004, 10:12 PM
In the box we all get a small yet clean bag of Martian blue berries, some what pebble like.

From my hand Grasshopper, snatch the pebble.

theo
03-19-2004, 10:18 PM
Martian Blueberries Wade? Sounds like you have already received and devoured your small, clean bag of Martian Mushrooms...

Silkrooster
03-19-2004, 10:26 PM
I for one can not wait for LW to get here. I know others may have more of a reason than I for LW to hurry up and get here.
However, since I am just learning LW and recently Purchased LW. I am not in as much of a hurry. This allows me the time to learn some of the "old" ways before LW8 changes how a certain function works.
Odds are Newtek is already past the coding portion of developing LW. But if they are not, then I for one am willing to wait the little extra time it takes to make sure the program is solid.
Could anybody imagine what it would be like with all of this demanding for LW, just to receive it out of pressure of the customers to only find out that it crashes every time you turn around.
This is what it was like for another modeler I use to use. Which is one of the main reasons I switched to LW. So I for one want a solid non crashable program more than any new features. The new features are like icing on the cake. You may beable to eat a cake with out frosting, but you can not frost a cake until it is fully baked.:D

mouse_art
03-19-2004, 10:33 PM
want a solid non crashable program more than any new features



me too :)


but anyway OGL enhancements, important too for me ( as yet, my workstation card is useless)

dwburman
03-19-2004, 11:25 PM
I hope NT doesn't wait until NAB to ship for personal reasons.

#1 I'm getting tired of waiting.

#2 I'm going to NAB and after that I'll be on a two week road trip back to Virginia... no LW8 play time.

Actually, I'm not in high anticipation mode right now. Apathy has kicked in and I really don't push LW too hard right now.

themaxx
03-19-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Silkrooster
Could anybody imagine what it would be like with all of this demanding for LW, just to receive it out of pressure of the customers to only find out that it crashes every time you turn around.

i'm so tired of correcting this particular point; i'm not even going to say it again.

Wade
03-19-2004, 11:28 PM
"The "blueberries" studied so far were found at an outcropping of rock in the tiny crater in which Opportunity landed in January. The recent discovery about their composition has made scientists eager to send the rover out of the crater to see what lies beyond on the Meridiani plains.
"The hypothesis at this point is that we're going to find that those plains are just littered with blueberries," said Knoll, of Harvard University."

I think we are the rover, and 8 is like the berries just over the lip of the crater, but then I think -if only I had a spoon, but pause, there is this voice that speaks to me " just try to realize there is no spoon" so then I think to myself aloud - would it be rude to eat them with my hands if I am the only one standing on the plains of Meridiani?

I once drew mars with colored pencils, while my math teacher ignored me, now others ignore me while they draw mars with Lightwave.

Nemoid
03-20-2004, 01:05 AM
I agree with nt policy of not saying a precise date. in the case they miss an exact deadline, many users would complain.

They want to make a good work, i think, better than what the old team did in these years.
gathered alot of suggestions, bug signaled from many users, betatester studios, and alot of feature request. probably implementing such things, addressing problems, creating new good tools, especially for layout was not so easy as they expected in a first time.

they are working hard and things will go better.
they were a new team, and so some time was required to know lw and its probs better.
Lw will be ready when they finish this huge work. i think we will be surprised from this release because it will be very good. :)

and this will be only the start.

they said first quarter and first quarter its not finished yet. so, they have some time to finish lw. my only hope is that there will be no more delay.

Hervé
03-20-2004, 01:27 AM
everything's OK folks...:D ;) I ordered lw8 3 days ago...

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 02:01 AM
I`m in a suggesting position at my company. I suggested few month ago, that we should consider LW8 as a possible replacement for our character pipeline against Maya. Although I love LW, and I`m gonna use it for personal works, now I suggest to my company to make the move toward XSI. I`m truly sorry, but as a freelancer, I have no problem (except the unkept promises) with the continuous delay, but as a professional, I cannot tell my bosses that trust Newtek and the future of LW.

I`m sorry. I`ve ran a few rounds with XSI, and although it`s much more expensive, we can build our whole character pipeline around it, without the fear, that we would be left without support and the possibility to upgrade.

Anyway, I hope that NT will clarify this situation, and will grow again to the big fishes

Hervé
03-20-2004, 02:22 AM
aha, when the pros talk.... what can we say...

I just hope NT did make the right decision to loose a few customers Vs. making some others.... U get the point...

All on the same boat, like on the Titanic, but some are first class served while others are waiting the rest.... BUT with the rest, ... we'll do the best !!

LW8 rulezzzzzzzz.... zzzzzz...... RRRrrrrr..... zzzzzz....RRRRrrrrrrr........ zzzzzzzz..... drinnnnngggg !!!!!!... Oh Oh, someone at the door.... oh nOOOO,.....AArrrrrghhhh !!!!....

...... to be continued...tada....:D

sailor
03-20-2004, 02:35 AM
The same over here Jester,

we all moved to Maya and to be honest we are very happy with it now....the same reasons and the same result

js33
03-20-2004, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
js33,

I would disagree slightly in that the Game Developers Conference, March 22 - 26, would make sense too. All of the hoopla about DOOM 3 and it using LW for art and levels would enforce that too.

Well that's possible but historically Newtek has always released a new version of LW at either NAB or Siggraph. I believe LW 7 was released at NAB and every other version before that was either NAB or Siggraph.

Cheers,
JS

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 02:57 AM
Look Hervé, maybe I didn`t understand your post well because of my clumsey English, but forget the software loyalty. NT is for the customers, and not the customers for NT. In the past few month NT showed a very strange attitude toward the customers, so I`m pretty sure, that mostly the freelancers, hobbyist remained with trust toward NT. As I told, I love LW and for personal projects it`s very good. But as an lead character artist at a game developement company, I have think of long term, reliable solution. We purchased LW, because we trusted LW8. LW8 is nowhere yet, and we are at the beginning of a new, long term project. I cannot take the risk, and responsibility to make a possibly fault move choosing LW, instead of a more robust application, even if it`s morre expensive. It`s pure business, without emotions. When I tested the 3D apps, there were lot of point of view, I had to examine. And to be honest, the expense was the last one. Currently we use Maya, but I found a lot of problem when doing characters for games. Now my to candidates are LW8 and XSI, and based upon the past few month, I`m biased toward XSI. I had recieved answers from Avid, but had no answer from Newtek. Sorry. That`s business. My company will pay more for a more reliable solution.

colkai
03-20-2004, 04:35 AM
j3st3r
Very harsh, but I get where you are coming from.
At the end of the day, if companies have no cash concern driving their purchases, then of course the most high-end expensive solution is good to have.
Let's face it, who wouldn't like more money to buy what they need.

I also, regretfully, accept that companies may have second thoughts of sticking with LW to moving to it due to the problems / perceived problems with the LW8 release.

I'm lucky, I have no money to buy more expensive software nor do I need to gear up for any tight-deadline projects. Consequently, I'll wait for LW8 and use it as and when it arrives, therefore my descision has been made for me.

One thing I AM sure of, when LW8 does arrive, furour will not go away, but will be directed towards percieved failings / ommissions. I don't get it myself, but there you are, at least you have made the decision to move away from LW instead of holding on whilst complaining, which, I'd bet a months salary on, some will not! ;)

As you say, business is business, one cannot afford to be sentimental about these things. I have done similar things with my choice of development packages in the past.
This as well, from a staunch LW fan, sheesh I must be lucid today. :p

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 04:59 AM
I see your point. And as I told, I love LW. I see that LW8 potentially could be our character tool for our upcoming project, but there is no evidence for that. I cannot rely on a product, that is not exists yet (commercially). Current LW system has serious faults, that make LW7.5c unusable to our pipeline. That`s all. If my personal business allowed, I would wait also. But when a serious pipeline should be developed for a long term project...I wouldn`t wait.

Therefore I will purchase LW from my company (afaik it is allowed), and use it for my personal business.

And I`m sorry if my opinion was harsh. I don`t think it was, but I think it was realistic.

Hervé
03-20-2004, 05:05 AM
U r' all very inspired today...

read my avatar.... cool member... all that is a second degre for me.... so.. but if you are a pro doing 3D, that's ok...

I guess for me a 3D app it's more like a graphic game package.... + you are witha team... I am by myself... and for all the ^people I know, no one is doing anything even with a computer... so... when I talk about all that 3D Industry to them, they think it's funny, that's all , they dont take all that very seriously... like someone would say he playing poker on the net... funny...

all that to say that a lot of LW users dont earn their money doing lW... they'd love to... but... so meanwhile they are just playing...

.... as for money... well some people have much much more expensive hobbies these days...

I would even bet even XSI has some Hobbyists, yes even some with the full version... no prob for some people... (aka not me)

Voilà, dear friends, I just wanted to clarify a bit what I was thinking...

In a certain way, hardware stores (the ones with drills and the likes) are full of hobbyists , and some buy even more expensive tools than the pros.... go figure... !

Have a really good week-end

(I am going to install my new furniture I received yesterday from Canada after waiting 3 months.... he he... btw these furniture..... 12 like this http://www.mrdesigns.ca/dining_chairs.html

and 1 like this http://www.mrdesigns.ca/diningroom_tables.html

all two, the first one photo....

So you see, I dont put too much money in 3D, since it more a Hobby, but with my wife, we do put a LOT of MONEY in art furniture...

Cheers, Hervé

nothing personal....:D :p

pauland
03-20-2004, 05:13 AM
That is some serious furniture.

Paul

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 05:13 AM
Wow Hervé! Me and my wife are going to check out some furniture!

And have a nice weekend to you also

Chuck
03-20-2004, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
I`m in a suggesting position at my company. I suggested few month ago, that we should consider LW8 as a possible replacement for our character pipeline against Maya. Although I love LW, and I`m gonna use it for personal works, now I suggest to my company to make the move toward XSI. I`m truly sorry, but as a freelancer, I have no problem (except the unkept promises) with the continuous delay, but as a professional, I cannot tell my bosses that trust Newtek and the future of LW.

I`m sorry. I`ve ran a few rounds with XSI, and although it`s much more expensive, we can build our whole character pipeline around it, without the fear, that we would be left without support and the possibility to upgrade.

Anyway, I hope that NT will clarify this situation, and will grow again to the big fishes

We've communicated a great deal in fact, with regard to LightWave [8], when in the past we have made no announcements and done no discussion - we just suddenly released a new update with no prior warning. In this case we have a full feature list posted already, we've been publicly showing the software in progress since last July, we've produced more than 50 demo/training videos since December. People who know the industry best have no such doubts about LightWave and NewTek as you describe. Major award-winning studios in North America and around the world continue to have absolute faith in LightWave 3D and continue to produce award-winning work with LightWave 3D, and major projects that have found themselves in trouble trying to meet deadline and quality goals with other high-end 3D packages have found themselves switching to LightWave to bring those projects in on time, on budget, and at the highest level of quality, as with the Emmy and VES winning Firefly project, and another major project now underway in the UK.

LightWave [8]'s "delay" has come nowhere near the years that XSI itself was late from the original projected release date. The Maya project also was far delayed beyond its original estimated release, and has in fact never gotten to point of porting the full version ("Unlimited") to the Mac. Faulting us and citing them as shining examples takes some serious disregard of the facts and history. You do no one a service when you express doubts that are so far off-base from the facts of the matter.

theo
03-20-2004, 10:54 AM
Yeah J3st3r- I am definitely in Chuck's corner on this one as far as the reputation of Lightwave goes. Lightwave 3D has one of the most reliable backbones in CG. The other 3D apps can scream from the hilltops, pay off reviewers and host self-promotion websites but in the end my money is on Lightwave and always will be.

There is a classic beauty and a simple but profound power about Lightwave that is the essence of genius software development.

Our pretty gray lady is sure a wonder to behold my friends as her womb has brought to conception the seeds of many brilliant imaginations.

I guess maybe that's why we're all so impatient- it is sort of like a love affair on a binary level.

pauland
03-20-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by theo
it is sort of like a love affair on a binary level.

You mean on/off?

theo
03-20-2004, 11:36 AM
Hahaha.... No comment required.

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 01:29 PM
I am truly sorry, but it looks like that outside of this forum the opinion is different. I remember when XSI was late (when Microsoft selled the whole softimage franchise), but what my bosses see that XSI has built an extremely strong reputation either in film, and game developement business. Of my Maya I don`t speak at all, because I think that LW beats Maya in all aspect except the animation possibilities.

Believe me, if I had seen when LW8 will come, I would ask my bosses to build our character engine around LW. But we have to build our pipeline NOW. Maya is not the application I would choose, because of its instability, and it`s node system causing us lot of headache. We could choose MAX, or XSI, or LW8. What we know? We know, that XSI has the specific features we need. We know, that MAX doesn`t have specific features we need. And we know that LW8 MAY have that specific features, but we don`t know, when we could use them.

We are not a big company. But what we choose now, we would use for our next upcoming project. An dthis is a long-term project. We can count on software that we have. Currently I have many problems with LW (all of them I mentioned on several topics), and I expect that LW8 will correct these issues. But I cannot plan with LW8 until I don`t know when I can use it. I think that is an understandable situation. I proved to my colleagues that I can model faster with LW than any Maya modeller in our company. I proved that I could UVMap any model faster in LW than any of their Maya mappers. But know I have to give a solution for our character pipeline.

Chuck, at the end of the year I told my company, that in the end of the year, LW8 will come, and we should use it for our characters. Then I told them, sorry, but we have to wait 2004 Q1, now what can I say? Later this year...They told me: Jester, it is YOUR responsibility to prepare a character pipeline that we can use for at least two years...Fine. Now I would choose XSI. I made an attempt to sign up for LW8 beta. But I was told it`s late...

I`m sorry, but I`m in such a stupid situation.

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 02:26 PM
Jester --

You might want to re-think things a bit, only b'cuz it will take longer to learn and set-up a full XSI pipeline that it would be to wait for LW8. Also, it sounds like you've got a full Maya pipeline in place as it is.

My studio uses Maya & LightWave, and we have all the power we need to create any project for any industry (we've used this combo to help create 13 games for XBox, PlayStation2, & Game Cube, as well as 2 short films and a whole ton of work for one of the most prestigious players in the global aerospace industry).

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you wholeheartedly that Maya & LW cannot suit your needs, unless you're working for a major motion picture that requires work to be interchanged with another studio via an XSI pipeline.

If you find Maya to be unstable, it might be because someone there is not using it properly, or not managing scene files/nodes/dependencies efficiently (we've been using Maya for several years now, and find it to be an extremely stable and reliable (not to mention robust) application).

I don't know your studio, but it sounds like you've got a killer setup in existence, and one that could easily incorporate LW8 when it ships (like ours will.....). Separate emotion from logic, and look at your pipeline again; you might find that you could do the job well as is, save your boss a sh*tload of $$$, and come out in the end lookin' like a hero!

theo
03-20-2004, 02:38 PM
J3st3r, I think your situation is understandable. You and your accomplishments are first priority and you need to make a determination based on that.

This is one of those examples where Marketing 102 is needed. In a money-making production environment the decision-making process is one that can make or break a deal. There are probably more than several shops in your shoes right now. I am in a situation where I am holding up development on a particularly involved project just to start fresh in LW8, which is one reason why I started this beef thread.

The question is though if you do decide to commit to XSI what if LW8 comes out and exceeds your expectations then you will find yourself in quite a pickle.

See, this is where I would like to hear a "time release window" voiced from Newtek. Not an exact date, just a sense of probability so that companies like yours can plan accordingly. Though it looks J3st3r is out of time, unfortunately.

j3st3r
03-20-2004, 03:14 PM
This is not the place, where I should detail out what instability Maya has (at least in our pipeline). We have to establish a rock solid environment for our next game, and by the plans, our character architecture would be extremely unique.

I don`t want to spend time reskinnig characters when they change geomwtry ( as Maya has this **** problem along with the funny grayscale skin weight display, and mysterious, undeletable nodes, that has no sense in the scene, but makes our work as hard as possible, etc.), and I don`t want to spend time with functions that are not compatible each other (we had some issues with constraints, and expression in LW). I see, that LW8 is an ideal candidate, but I don`t see, when it will be released. If I knew, that it`ll be released until our projects start, I would ask for a delay. That`s all. And jevin, if I`m wrong, and LW8 is not as good as we think, I am the one, who will be kicked in the ***. I don`t want to take responsibility for this.

KillMe
03-20-2004, 04:06 PM
just curious but when does this project start? - if you have time to wait yet, then i would could save you some serious $'s and accomplish everything you need and since you were using a lightwave maya pipeline already it would simply your pipeline to just lightwave and avoid having to retrain to XSI

cource if your out of time your out of time

lightwave should be thought of as a unpredicable child - it might be late and your thinking it will never appear then you blink and pop its out =)

Adrian Lopez
03-20-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
If you find Maya to be unstable, it might be because someone there is not using it properlyCrashes are never the user's fault.

SamuraiSlayer
03-20-2004, 05:27 PM
If I was NewTek I'd be going crazy right now. I'd build a CG gun and shoot some CG you's with it. While I am getting frustrated with this prolonged release, the only thing I but to blame is my impatience.

I only blame NewTek for one reason: they indicated a new version release too soon. None of us LW'ers have any patience so they should have waited to tell us about LW until a week before its actual release. That's still not really putting NewTek to blame, it's putting LW'ers to blame. BE GLAD YOU WERE GIVEN EARLY NOTICE, AT LEAST NOW YOU KNOW THERE'S ANOTHER LW ON THE HORIZON. Instead of waiting, they told us about LW8 early and put up with the impatient complaints.

@NewTek: you should just throw new versions and updates right out there when you get them all done and ready to ship with no forewarning and then you won't make impatient people more impatient.

prospector
03-20-2004, 05:57 PM
SamuraiSlayer ..What kind of life would it be if we weren't impatient about something??

I ordered in DEC thinking it was coming out at the end of DEC, when money was tight. If I knew then what was going to happen I coulda used it for something else and now that money is loose again I could upgrade now.

I can imagine those that ordered almost a year ago, that's a bit of interest on that money shot for nothing.

Like I said before, I been with Newtek thru thick and thin, and the really thin when they switched from Amiga to PC, but I have never seen it like this.

And the 5 to 6 (shall I say fiasco) wasn't this bad.
At least we got more than "were workin on it".

If they are waiting for the show then fine...say so.
If they are waiting for manuals, fine..say so
If they are waiting for CD burning, fine... say so.

at least j3st3r and companies like his (mine for example) can plan accordingly. I have been waiting for 8 because after seeing the demos, it looked like I could have done most of my stuff in much less time than by the 7.5 way and so I wouldn't have to change in midstream I decided to wait. Well I am now waiting 3 months, and I am stuck waiting because to go and do it the other way now would be insane..But had I known then, I could have started the other and been at least 60% completed.

SamuraiSlayer
03-20-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by prospector
SamuraiSlayer ..What kind of life would it be if we weren't impatient about something??

-a good one-

and btw if you're going to be impatient about something it doesn't have to be LW; it can be your luggage at the airport, your computer to start up, the democrats to go back to Iowa, you name it

do you guys really think that complaining is gonna make them release 8 any sooner? do you think that if you keep asking its gonna make them tell you the exact date? That'd be kinda funny, Chuck goes to his boss/superior and says "We need ta tell them people at the forums when LW8 is gonna be released because... they keep complaining and stuff so..."

If I was NewTek, and maybe this is a little bit blunt and crude, but I wouldn't tell you the release date, I'd tell ya something else, and it would be something like "Go to hell"...

then you could be impatient about something... ETERNITY

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 07:02 PM
NewTek -- ya gotta listen to the people here. I'm tryin' to be positive about this whole thing, but many loyal customers are very disgruntled and are speaking out loudly. I must agree that this is the worst pitfall I've seen this company go thru since I joined up with version 5.

If you have even a marginal window period when you anticipate the shipping of LW8 to begin, I think it would be a wise decision to let the info out. Only because an angry or grumpy client base is an unhappy client base; word of mouth can do more damage to a company than anything else, and allow an opening for the wolves to come in and woo the sheep from the fold.

I do think that the past year has been a PR disaster for NewTek, with the Luxology thang, the developer desertion, and now a continuing delay of v.8 and NewTek's odd silence. The one thing NT has goin for it is probably the most loyal and passionate user base in the industry.... I'd like to see that relationship continue and grow stronger as time goes by!

animotion
03-20-2004, 07:46 PM
I deal with customer all over the united states, and have done so for more that ten years now. believe me, It would not be a very smart thing to tell your paying customers to go to hell.

This will be over soon, I hope, and then we can put this behind us and continue using LW with a little more knowlege of what to do and what not to do next time, including NT.

Animotion

:cool:

Vincent Brumbac
03-20-2004, 07:49 PM
It is wrong to plan a project for unreleased features. Newtek cannot be blamed for that.


Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

lasvideo
03-20-2004, 07:57 PM
I guess this thread serves the function similar to group therapy..
it allows the catharsis of frustration. This is a good thing.
In the long run...thats all its does. All points of view have been
expressed in hopes of some information pertaining to release dates.
Newtek, for whatever reason is not divulging. It doenst really matter why any more.
All choices are up to us.
1. Wait patiently
2. Wait impatiently
3. Throw out Lw and get other software.
No amount of persuading or threateneing at this point seems like it will ellicit what is desired.
So we deal with it or we dont..........thats our choice.
I can see that our time is up... that will be $100 please. LOL

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 08:02 PM
I think a big part of the problem is that NT took money last year for this upgrade, and has continued to do so up to this point. Part of the frustration is paying $500 for something that is taking (for some who jumped in real early) nearly a year to deliver. This was the fatal mistake, plain and simple. Had they waited until shortly before release to begin accepting pre-orders, they could have then used the past year to hype up the great things-a-comin, instead of spending precious time, energy and manpower on damage and spin control. Definitely hope to see this approached in a drastically different way next year!

No offense at all intended to the wonderful people at NT, but this whole marketing mess could have been easily avoided by not opening up the bank so pre-maturely (unless, of course, NT was in desperate need of a cash influx....).

hulagirl7
03-20-2004, 09:21 PM
Hey there all! hey I'm a BIG BIG fan of Lightwave since 4.0.
Back when boolean's were pedal-powered and we had to
walk ten miles in freezing rain just to fake volumetric fog
with a series of poly-planes, falloff & world coordinates.

Here's my big but...;)

They should've waited to bill/charge for the upgrade
until it was released. (As many software co. do.)

The money has been earning interest in their account for
quite some time now...

But hey... buck up little soldiers, it's on it's way and
@#&$* it's gonna be AWESOME!

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 10:57 PM
Agreed, HulaGirl! Altho I doubt any of this $$ is still in their banks, however -- I'm sure the cash flow for LW8 pre-orders has been used to finance the completion of the project; if so, then NewTek is just scraping even on this one, and will not be piling tons of dough away as a profit margin. I'm sure our loyalty and support financially for this next version has been well spent on development team salaries, paychecks for the good men and women at NewTek, etc. And you're right -- this WILL be one *&[email protected]#%*[email protected]* hot release, no doubt!!!

BUT, they should've waited to take customer's $$ in any case. Your point is very valid in that area too....

Vincent Brumbac
03-20-2004, 11:22 PM
Umm, let's not forget that DFX+ was sent out to those who signed up for the upgrade offer.

I think next time everyone who has voiced their displeasure of the late arrival of LW8 should not order the next upgrade until it is actually shipping.

Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

j3st3r
03-21-2004, 01:06 AM
Just to mention, that in Hungary I hadn`t recieved the DFX, but five tutorial CDs from Todd Grimes...

Look. As a game developer company what I do see? I see, that our project starts soon (it`s NDA related to mention exact date), and we have to think in large scale, and I`d like to involve in our character pipeline the least number of tools.

LW8 could accomplish this task, if it were out, or if we knew when it will be out. I`m seriously consider LW8, but as one told when modo was announced, that until modo is not out it is vaporware. I`m sorry to say, that at this moment LW8 is vaporware. If it is released tomorrow (as suggested by DStorm), I will include it in my suggestion list at the first place.

About Maya, and it`s instability. It is fun, when our artist builds a level of few hundred thousands of polygons, and there are mysterious nodes, and connections, even after cleaning, etc. And the performance is extremely dropped. Intersting that XSI deals with ease with the same scene. Intersting also, that Maya could crash even when asking for attribute editor. No, no one can explain me that we are using improperly Maya. LW is much more stable (without plugins).

About the situation I am in:
I am a LW user. Whenever I got to a company, I asked them to buy me LW, because it is my tool of choice, and I can best any of their MAX, Maya, or other modeller with LW.
But now, as a lead character artist (or CHaracter Supervisor), I have to suggest to my bosses a solution, that we can rely on for at least two years. Maybe, we will revise our decision before we make the move, but currently we have to decide.

And now that is.

I`m sure that there are pipelines where Maya is good enough, but momentary I think (and based upon my experience with both LW7.5, maya, and XSI) that XSI would serve us the best (since LW8 is not out, and we don`t now WHEN will it be out)

Thank you for your attention, and please put aside your emotions, and look at the situation professionally, what would you do?

Of course we will keep our LW seats, at least because I`m still faster with LW modeller than any other.

Beamtracer
03-21-2004, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by j3st3r
I`d like to involve in our character pipeline the least number of tools. Sometimes it can make sense to use more than one tool. There are third party character packages that you can easily add to Lightwave right now. Some of these integrate really well. Lightwave then becomes a hub for your pipeline.

The same goes for other major 3D packages. Maya has a bad internal renderer, so people use third party renderers with Maya.

You mix and match to get the combination that's best for you.

Nemoid
03-21-2004, 02:55 AM
j3st3r, i clearly see your points, but... i have some doubts.

when working for a company, things have to be decided upon
the existing tools. you have the responsability to build a character pipeline, but since you're so good with Lw, just use the current version.
in the company you have also Maya.

well, what i can say is that maybe it have its strenghts and weaknesses, but how Weta did to manage so huge projects with an app wich you think is worse than Lw ??

the point is : use what you have at your disposal NOW and use it at your best.

how studios like Computer cafe and Zoic and others do to make projects with Lw?
don't rely on supposed, upcoming tools, because you will have to learn them, and maybe they're not what you will need.

when they will be out, maybe you can take some time to see IF some tool will enhance your pipeline, but this will be an addon to make things probably easier.

i clearly remember that an artist like Marco Patrito, made his works 3dStudio Max at early versions. well, he managed to do things that were NOT possible to do at the time with the app, faking them. he invented techniques to make an effect wich wasn't possible, painting it. in the new releases , discreet included this effect as a feature of the app for real.

you will always have to deal with some prob,and things wich don't work properly ANY software you choose.Being it XSI, Houdini, Mirai, Modo...

so, i think that a Lw+Maya pipeline wich you have right now, its really good once you make it to work well, maybe with lscripts, and MEL too, facing probs at the start and during the work. things will go surely better with new releases of both softwares.

XSI also could be a solution, but a very expensive one, that you must verify if brings only advantages.(not so sure of it) learning a new app, rebuilding an entire pipeline on it, etc takes alot of time, while in the period wich passed waiting the new Lw you could just have done a part of the job!!!!!

about Lw8 delaying, i can really understand you. but since Nt didn't put out exact dates, only estimations, no official date statements and so on there were no excuse to think Lw would be out in that period at all.

maybe NT should say : Lw8 will be out soon. no year period indication,no date, nothing.

when an app its on the market only then you can rely on it. relying on existing tools is the best choice ever.

just my 2 cents of Euro.

retinajoy
03-21-2004, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by hulagirl7

Here's my big but...;)

They should've waited to bill/charge for the upgrade
until it was released. (As many software co. do.)

The money has been earning interest in their account for
quite some time now...

But hey... buck up little soldiers, it's on it's way and
@#&$* it's gonna be AWESOME!

They needed to bill us because they sent us the product DFX+ (worth big cash) straight away to us. I am sure Newtek would owe Eyeone some cash for every DFX+ that was shipped straight away on ordering the upgrade too. If it was just Lightwave, then I would fully agree with you.

private
03-21-2004, 04:16 AM
j3st3r, it's pretty easy. Wait just a little longer until the end of Q1 2004. That's only another 10 days. From that point LW8 will be released or NT will say it's been delayed and by how long. If it's the latter, then..........makes your decision very easy.

CB_3D
03-21-2004, 04:53 AM
j3st3r, i understand your pov 100%. But don´t go XSI for a new project inless you have someone *very* experienced with it who´s willing to train the others.

There´s nothing more destined to fail than a complicated project with a software nobody knows his way around in.

CB_3D
03-21-2004, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by private
From that point LW8 will be released or NT will say it's been delayed and by how long.

Who says so? :confused:

sailor
03-21-2004, 05:16 AM
Hi Jester,

first of all i dont see why you are so much expecting the release of LW 8...i have worked in very large projects and we still were using LW 7 when 7.5 was released....there is not so often such a rush in the fact of changing the tool...even more at the same time some modelers were still using LW 6.5....to be honest this happens very often because almost no studio has enough cash to pay for the licenses immediately after the release and second is that it is very dangerous to brutally switch in the middle of a project...but just curious what are those features that you need so urgently and that supposedly LW 8 will bring?

personally apart the hobbyst and some LW fanboys (but the same goes for any soft fan out there) i dont remember any house being so excited about a release i even remember having some problemes because i had to deliver a Maya scene that i made in Maya 5 and when arriving to this big studio we couldn't open it because they were "still" working on 4.5 and believe me it was a very large studio here in Paris and this was several months after Maya 5 release.

anyway i do think that Newtek is in a weak position because of such a long delay...but talking about real life needs, business cannot be stopped because of this and my opinion is that no one should be that much planning there pipeline only with what you call "vaporware" u can't rely on Newtek or Alias or whatever ...on top of that most of the LW 8 features are pure speculation until we really put into production pipeline...before this nobody knows how "cool" this new release really is...

about The Maya node cleaning you have lots of Maya scene cleaners out there you could search on Highend 3d...also to be honest Maya 5 is rock stable at work nothing to complain about and the Openg Gl is superfast...much more than LW for sure...

j3st3r
03-21-2004, 06:26 AM
I think, I don`t need to explain every reasons, why we are not satisfied with out current character pipeline.

LW8? OpenGL performance, for example. It`s extremely slow when I`d like to display bone weights in Layout. And inaccurate when I`m not on frame 0. Or the long waited wireframe on textured shading. In game developement it helps a lot. IKBoost. Without expressions I could setup as many characters as I like. More stable modelling tools. And the UV on subdiv distortion issue to be corrected (for promotional renders). I think they are serious reasons. But LWs handling of weights are much more what we need...

Neither Maya nodecleaning tool had to deal with that. And try to separate 2 polys from a 20k poly structure...In many cases it takes half minute...And the funny history...If you use, Maya dies soon, if not, you cannot use parameters sometimes...doh...

And I would wait even a month if I had a month to wait...But tomorrow I have to make proposal, what software could accomplish the tasks for our new character technology?

Don`t let you be disturbed by me, I`m leaving this topic. I have to make a suggestion only, and it could change according to a new situation.

jevinstudios
03-21-2004, 07:40 AM
Jester --

Have you tried Messiah? That is an app fully integratable with LightWave that is designed for complex, high-end character animation. Have you watched "Jimmy Neutron"? This entire series is created with LightWave and Messiah, and has some of the best character animation out there.

Also, you should have support included with your Maya licenses if your studio has set things up right with annual maintenance. The people at Alias are TOP NOTCH, and can work with you to fix any bugs you have in your Maya Pipeline, including crashes, node cleaning, etc. Maya is EXTREMELY stable (more so than LW, in my own experience); Alias staff respect all NDA's, and will patiently get your pipeline running properly -- I know because they have been a wonderful asset to my studio.

You have all the power at your fingertips to create the most advanced 3D work on the market in your existing pipeline -- but, if you want to take your boss's $$ and create a whole new (and extremely expensive) production environment, without beefing up the software you are already comfortable and familiar with by using wonderful, state-of-the-art enhancements such as Messiah (or Motion Builder), that's your call. Best of luck to you.

All I know is that if someone in my studio dumped an entire pipeline because of a delayed software release, then ran me tens of thousands by purchasing XSI that nobody knew how to run in retaliation without exploring every solution currently available to improve the existing pipeline, they'd be in the unemployment office faster than the install disks could be removed from the jewel cases!

SamuraiSlayer
03-21-2004, 01:20 PM
Yes, NewTek has a lot of loyal customers, but NewTek is also very loyal to their customers. Instead of just making a new version without announcing it until shipping, they worked right along with the customers, everyone in the feature request forums, taking advice and tweaking so they don't leave anything out. How can you be impatient with the release if you still see updates and improvements?

well there's my other 2 cents

jevinstudios
03-21-2004, 01:33 PM
Well said, Samurai.

pixelinfected
03-21-2004, 04:07 PM
i have two in my mind :

- in my past i was a developer, and i teach how to develop in many languages, then i know that a complex software like Lw need a lots of time to do a correct work, especially now that there is a new dev team which needs time to understand and restart the work of old team.

for these reasons i understand the delay, and approve all newtek policy.

- now i work like 3d artist, and i pretend a release of lw 8, but not like most of user for new tools, but for a bug fix!!!!
in past (i use lw from 3.5 version) newtek release many bugfix, many minor release, which are bug fix, and not a new tools realese.
think to lw 4b, 4c, or 5.6a, b, c, etc

in the last period (last years) newtek delay lw version release, especially the bug fix release.

if you need to delay more lw[8], please do a bug fix release, every user which work with lw in hard scene know what i mean and lot of part which need a clean up.

Lw [8] rocks, and i hope that i can have it under my teeth early.

DigiLusionist
03-21-2004, 07:09 PM
Jester, I agree with what you're saying. I have a character-heavy project I just started and I totally agree that a business cannot adequately plan for a project if there is no knowledge of when an upgrade is coming.

I didn't want to spend a lot of money and time buying and learning other apps to do what NT says LW8 will be able to do. I wanted to keep the pipline down to one 3DD app, and to support apps such as Photoshop and After Effects, etc.

I'm glad I didn't pre-order cause I gotta tell ya, DFX does nothing to help me out for what I do. Certainly nothing that my other comp tool doesn't already do. So there wouldn't have been any consolation there for me.

Productivity is the main point in your argument, which is being glossed over by the other guys. If your company and mine wanted to have to pay ten guys to do what has to be done with LW7.5 versus 5 guys using LW8, then sure, we could wait for LW8 to come out. Some year.

But a smart business plans ahead, maximizes resources, and uses the best available tools. It's not just being a good artist that counts, but being a productive one.

And better tools make for a more productive artist.

I simply couldn't keep waiting for some indication of when LW8 was going to be released to set up this project's pipeline. As it was, I waited five months. That's why I finally went ahead and switched the pipeline for this project to be Maya-centric. Ouch.

Will I buy LW8 when it's released? Just one upgrade. My money's been spent for the next two years for any more seats beyond that...

Beamtracer
03-21-2004, 08:45 PM
Newtek is a good communicator. You could fault them on other things, but not communication.

I hear After Effects mentioned. How often do Adobe and After Effects staff pop up on the most popular forums?

I was once going to purchase Electric Image. I was waiting for their Universe 3D package to come out. It literally took years and years and years for things thing to arrive. They even took pre-orders. I couldn't wait any longer, so I bought Lightwave instead of Electric Image Universe. Glad I did.

In the case of Lightwave, our time scale is weeks, not years. LW8 is almost ready. It won't be long.

Just be glad you're not waiting for Electric Image to come out with their next major revision.

themaxx
03-21-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
In the case of Lightwave, our time scale is weeks, not years. LW8 is almost ready. It won't be long.

you keep saying things like that as if you know something the rest of us don't. care to share?

theo
03-21-2004, 09:35 PM
Hmmm... Beam Tracer. Hmmm... Light Wave. Either you're a cheap knock-off (with all due respect to your 1900 posts) or a creepy Interpol-like company mole that digs through threads looking to devour juicy little negative-posting grubs.

More than likely though you are a beta-testing zombie just trying ta cover yer butt for messing up everybody's lives here in the land of the waving light.

Before you have a hernia and heave a three page response at me just relax I'm having fun with you- though I must say you have got to be one of the LW hard-cores with some of the responses you have posted.

Just postulating about postering posters:D

DigiLusionist
03-21-2004, 09:42 PM
Beam, you aren't paying attention. NT hasn't communicated the most important thing: when LW8 is projected to be coming out.

Videos: Good. Feature list: Better. Release Date: Best.

While you may be comfortable in waiting for an indeterminate period of time without any substantive news, I'm not. So in this regard, we differ greatly.

Apparently, no amount of concern on my part will change the situation. Neither does any indifference on your part diminish or negate the validity of my concerns.

Edit: I don't rely on AE for character animation, so that really doesn't apply to the situation.

theo
03-21-2004, 09:45 PM
Digi- is that pontification I hear in your voice?

DigiLusionist
03-21-2004, 09:51 PM
Nope. My posts have been pretty straight-forward.

Beamtracer
03-21-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Lots of folks here have been burning the midnight oil to get this ready for all the folks anxiously awaiting LightWave [8].
[...]
We're very close

Signal to Noise
03-21-2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by theo
...LW8... LET US KNOW!!! So we can make plans accordingly....

What kind of plans do you need to make?

The way I deal with the waiting is I pretend there is no LW [8] upgrade coming. I just carry on with what I've got and don't worry about it.

wapangy
03-21-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Signal to Noise
What kind of plans do you need to make?

Extravagant LW 8 release parties...
:)

j3st3r
03-21-2004, 11:04 PM
Speaking of Messiah: it was used for the movie only. The series was produced with Maya.

We are currently using Maya as our main tool. I am using Lightwave for character modelling, and mapping. For animation I couldn`t rely on LW, Maya is far superior to LW7.5c. The contraints, the expression, and the overall openGL performance makes Maya better. I don`t want to argue about it. Maya has those stupid errors I`ve mentioned above. The most serious one is that if I smooth skinned a character, I couldn`t edit it`s geometry (I mean serious changes by adding, removing details, etc.) without messing up with the history, and making the character unusable to our engine. After our last project it was clear, that Maya is not good for our pipeline. And I don`t want to argue about that also, many studios (including ILM) replaced their Maya character pipeline with XSI, or another one).
Last year I hoped, that LW8 (based upon the features, videos, etc.) will be a cool replacement to our pipeline. I spent my last few weeks testing softwares. I`ve tested Motionbuilder, Maya, XSI, Lightwave, their NLA ability (wich became a very important issue), and their OpenGL, and overall animation capabilities, and their scriptability, overall development possibility. What I`ve found?

Motionbuilder PRO is excellent animation package. The best NLA ever, good OpenGL preformance, even with 10-30 characters doing different movemements. But poor (no) scriptability.

Maya is a good animation package, it`s TRAX is good, OpenGL is good, scriptability is excellent. But there are some issues, that makes it`s use cumbersome (weight display, and editing skinned character), easy to make user friendly setups, but sometimes forget to updtae the constraints (I have to go ack to frame 0)

Lightwave 7.5c is good animation package, MotionMixer is about as good as trax, openGL is poor, no snapping in Layout, contraints and some expressions are not compatible, etc. Doesn`t display skin weights in Layout properly when not on frame 0, etc. Many issues. Since I haven`t seen, and I haven`t tested LW8 yet, I have no opinion about it (only that it looks promising)

In XSI almost everything is just as we like to use. It`s animation mixer is almost as good as MotionBuilder. OpenGL is far superior to Maya. Easy to setup a character, proper skin display, and I can edit the character even if it is skinned. Very scriptable (even in visual basic I am familiar with). Doesn`t fell on knees when I display ghosts (as Maya did). But expensive.

Now let`s take a management. What they will consider? The immediate expense, or the overall expenses? Of course the overall expenses. What we need to keep our Maya pipeline? Programmers to make tools, or rewrite the existing tools. How long it takes? What are the expenses they will produce? Overall maybe more than purchasing an XSI license. What we need to use Lightwave 7.5c. Programmers to write plugins, and using plenty of external tools. Expenses. Expenses are increasing with the time passes. Possibly they will reach XSI`s expense within half a year. But it`s not an insurance that we will have a good pipeline.

I`m sure that if LW8 were out at time, or a bugfix attacking those issues that are mentioned overall this forum, I would be in an easier situation. At this moment I have to offer a solution to my bosses, where I can imagine that a rock solid pipeline could be built around our new technology. And now (in the lack of knowledge of LW8) I will suggest XSI for animation. We will keep LW for modelling and UV.

I`m sure that if you had been in a similar situation, and you had to put your feelings (loyalty to the software you like the most) aside, you would do the same as me.

Thanks your attention guys. I still love LW! And I still hope, that when the pipeline is about to be built, we can see how LW8 performs in action.

Chuck, please forgive my words, and I hope that very soon NT release LW8, and we can test it`s new features. Thanks!

DigiLusionist
03-21-2004, 11:24 PM
My word. You wonder what it is we have to plan accordingly for?

Determining the scope of the project, determining the pipeline logistics, planning out the scheduling, making sure you have the personnel with the right skill requirements to pull it all off, all while creating a feasibility package that justifies investment into the project, as well as the risks involved in taking out business loans.

If you haven't had to do all that on your own dime, then I guess you wouldn't have any idea what the heck we're talking about.

If you did, you wouldn't take what we're saying so lightly.

Yog
03-22-2004, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

Originally posted by Chuck
Lots of folks here have been burning the midnight oil to get this ready for all the folks anxiously awaiting LightWave [8].
[...]
We're very close
They were very close during the last week of December, and that was 3 months ago.

Originally posted by Chuck (23/12/03)

All the new features are implemented and it's getting really close
The post from Chuck last week seemed to suggest L8 was still being worked on, which if true, and allowing for final beta testing, CD burning and posting means we are still at least a few weeks away.

Originally posted by Chuck (23/12/03)
After the holidays, we'll have more information about the LightWave 3D 8 shipping schedule
I guess this means the day before it ships then ? But then that doesn't gel with what Chuck said last Friday

Originally posted by Chuck (23/12/03)
we do know when we think we'll be able to ship, but we feel it is really not useful to make a public estimate

Which in turn doesn't gel with last years "72 days to the release of LW8" and "Q4 2004", although I could see that "Special offer available until LW8 ships ....... special offer ends March 21st" might be a bit more tenuous

theo
03-22-2004, 06:22 AM
Thanks Digi for the backup-

I was beginning starting to wonder if I am a planning freak of nature. I really think that half the effort into a project should be planning and project management. In my experience this can be a real time-saver as well as an efficiency maximizer.

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 06:25 AM
Yog,

YOU NAILED IT !!!!

Great job of documenting the fuzzy and vague timeline communicated about LW [8]'s release to this point. People need to understand it is the vague speak on the actual release timeline which is the most frustrating aspect of the LW [8] communication out of NewTek.

For some reason we all expect something to happen today regarding [8]. But my guess is today will come and go without word one from NT. The forum should be interesting over the next few days.

pauland
03-22-2004, 06:33 AM
I think most people are expecting a GDC or NAB release. The only people who might be expecting something will be speaking Chinese...

Paul

pixelinfected
03-22-2004, 06:40 AM
i decided to give confidence to Newtek and i bought lw8 some days ago, i beleive in newtek and attend the lw[8] exit.

no one could project a pipeline on a software which not exist on market (too high risk) or you have developer in house, and you know exactly where and what dev do, or it's impossible to know all new features and, more important, bug and unknow problem of new features which you think to use.
my two cent

p.s. i tell that be cause i did that error in past, i project a pipeline on some in features of lw 7.5 which not work correctly under high resolution render, and under high poly scenes.

TSpyrison
03-22-2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist

Videos: Good. Feature list: Better. Release Date: Best.


So, Lets say they give us another release date, and some freakish bug pops up that forces them to miss that one? What then? Will you be happy that they gave you a date?

It doesn't matter what date they give, It will come out when it comes out. I think that it will be soon, and im happy with that.

Bones_3DFC
03-22-2004, 07:13 AM
Oh heck
I'll jump in, here (excited to have just got in on the DFX/Bundle deal).

I agree with T[oasty]Spyrison :)

8 will get here when it gets here.
I'm happy now and I'll be happy when it gets here.

It's exciting to wait and to know: NewTek will deliver the best
possible release, when they can.

After that - I'll appreciate any teasers about Lightwave 9 :)

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 07:25 AM
"It will get here when it's ready"

I am sure this is the type of statement given to clients who need a production design ready for a scheduled promotional campaign.

Yeah. That's what I'll tell them. You will get your media production when it's good and ready.

:rolleyes:

theo
03-22-2004, 07:37 AM
Time to shake up the thread a little-

I'd love to see a profile on a lot of the guys in these threads-

1) Hardcore production user
1A) Casual production user
2) Student
3) 3D enthusiast
4) hobbyist

Some of these folks seem to be unusually relaxed for people actually making money in this business. Most business people I know, myself included, try to be laid-back but are mostly pretty impatient for any new ability to make an extra buck. And since Newtek is a business (ohh nooo- those rascally capitalists) I am sure they do sympathize with us compulsive, ROI-driven business types.

And I, for one, have almost no real care for anyone's opinion unless they are in the top rung of that list above. Regardless of our creative soap boxes the sole driving purpose for any serious implementation of any piece of softare is profitability, period.

Alliante
03-22-2004, 08:00 AM
Most of the people making money are already making money with the tools that they are using.

The new features wouldn't be used until one at least of their artists prove the new tools can and will work for the next job available.

For a production house, new bells and whistles are nice, but they have to be evaluated where they will fit into the production line before they can be considered, as as nice as the movies that Proton has so graciously shared, nothing beats hands-on experimenting.

TSpyrison
03-22-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
"It will get here when it's ready"

I am sure this is the type of statement given to clients who need a production design ready for a scheduled promotional campaign.

Yeah. That's what I'll tell them. You will get your media production when it's good and ready.

:rolleyes:

Are you saying that you cant do anything at all with the version of Lightwave that you have now??

prospector
03-22-2004, 08:09 AM
OK Newtek, I've changed my mind
Take your time
I don't care anymore
I just got my new Mantis Rototiller/cultivator in and I am going gardening:D

Hopefully 8 will be out about the time the tomatoes pop up cuz then my tomatoe sandwiches will be ready.


Are you saying that you cant do anything at all with the version of Lightwave that you have now
No we can't..
LW is old hat right now and even the boxes I make are so bad, a homeless person wouldn't want to live in:D

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 08:13 AM
TSpyrison,

I understand the point you make about using the tools you have. I do have 7.5 and use it for my work.

I was simply being sarcastic about the impending release. I cannot stand the "it will be ready when it is ready" comment. No business does business that way. Certainly no 3D or graphics design company can do business that way. Do you tell your customers that something will "be ready when its ready?" I doubt very seriously anyone who is still in business does that.

The "ready when it is ready" comment is fine for software which is not officially announced, but people have already pre-ordered this unreleased "it will be ready when it is ready" software (almost a year ago).

NewTek owes it to the people here who have pre-ordered LW [8] to provide a clear timeline for the release. By now they should know.

Bones_3DFC
03-22-2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by theo
Time to shake up the thread a little-

I'd love to see a profile on a lot of the guys in these threads-

1) Hardcore production user
1A) Casual production user
2) Student
3) 3D enthusiast
4) hobbyist

Some of these folks seem to be unusually relaxed for people actually making money in this business. Most business people I know, myself included, try to be laid-back but are mostly pretty impatient for any new ability to make an extra buck. And since Newtek is a business (ohh nooo- those rascally capitalists) I am sure they do sympathize with us compulsive, ROI-driven business types.

And I, for one, have almost no real care for anyone's opinion unless they are in the top rung of that list above. Regardless of our creative soap boxes the sole driving purpose for any serious implementation of any piece of softare is profitability, period.
Well I guess I'm one of the relaxed folks.

I'd like to see the profile on a Hardcore production user who also has
time to scour forums, looking to prove his profile somehow makes him
"better" than other users.
Especially one who contradicts the time taken with his own response, only to say: "I, for one, have almost no real care for anyone's opinion "

So I could commit suicide, being a lowly freelancer.
Or I could switch to a free app, worthy of my lowliness, like Anim8or.
At least until the coveted Lightwave 8 comes out at which point I'll
somehow be making more money than I ever have, before.
;)

TSpyrison
03-22-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
TSpyrison,

I understand the point you make about using the tools you have. I do have 7.5 and use it for my work.

I was simply being sarcastic about the impending release. I cannot stand the "it will be ready when it is ready" comment. No business does business that way. Certainly no 3D or graphics design company can do business that way. Do you tell your customers that something will "be ready when its ready?" I doubt very seriously anyone who is still in business does that.

The "ready when it is ready" comment is fine for software which is not officially announced, but people have already pre-ordered this unreleased "it will be ready when it is ready" software (almost a year ago).

NewTek owes it to the people here who have pre-ordered LW [8] to provide a clear timeline for the release. By now they should know.

No, I don’t tell my customers that it will "be ready when its ready".. But I don’t tell them “the next version of the program isn't out yet, so I can't do it for you" either. I use the tools that I currently have to the best of my ability, and try to work around whatever limitations I have with it.

I bought the DFX+ deal, and am currently learning DFX now. So I got my moneys worth there.

I mean, what are they supposed to say? They are dammed if they give a release date and miss it, and dammed if they don’t give a release date at all...

So you have 2 options….

Give a release date, and run the risk of missing it again and hearing everyone ***** and moan if the date is missed..

Or not give a release date, listen to everyone ***** and moan about not having a release date, then release the program when it’s good and ready.


I personally think, they should do version 9 like they did 7. Don’t let anyone know anything, then release it when its done. That will fix all the moaning about release dates…

You’d think we were all little spoiled children.

theo
03-22-2004, 08:34 AM
Hahaha... like I said- time to shake up the thread it was getting a bit stale:D

I work 14 hours days so a few minutes here and there on a forum is a bit of relief to be honest with you. Plus I am a multi-tasking fiend.

Well Bones I would prefer that you not commit suicide ESPECIALLY if you are a lowly freelancer as I would include lowly freelancers, if that is what you truly are, as being on the top rung as well, if LW is an income generator for you. So relax and rest assured you are "ONE OF US":D

Its the gardeners that I get a little concerned about:D

Noclar7
03-22-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by prospector

Hopefully 8 will be out about the time the tomatoes pop up cuz then my tomatoe sandwiches will be ready.


I love tomato sandwiches :D

LW8 + tomato sandwich + FPrime = goodtimes

DigiLusionist
03-22-2004, 08:47 AM
Let's see: up to now, LW has not been a time-efficient character animation tool. Is that in dispute? No. Otherwise, NT wouldn't have been focusing on that past of LW.

So, if a LW-centric project involes animating a lot of characters, and, a new version will enable fewer guys to do the character work faster, does it not make any sense at all that I would want to have it as part of the pipeline instead of the older version?

Any sense at all? If not, I simply have to question your production and business management experience.

Chuck
03-22-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Yog
They were very close during the last week of December, and that was 3 months ago.

The post from Chuck last week seemed to suggest L8 was still being worked on, which if true, and allowing for final beta testing, CD burning and posting means we are still at least a few weeks away.

I guess this means the day before it ships then ? But then that doesn't gel with what Chuck said last Friday

Which in turn doesn't gel with last years "72 days to the release of LW8" and "Q4 2004", although I could see that "Special offer available until LW8 ships ....... special offer ends March 21st" might be a bit more tenuous

What you don't quote from what I've had to say would make things gel a lot better. We did in fact announce that our estimates for a fourth quarter release we overly optimistic (you quoted part of that message so you've definitely seen it), and as for the "72 days" message we've acknowledged that was an error in judgement and we should never have sent a message out with that statement.

Chuck
03-22-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
Yog,

YOU NAILED IT !!!!

Great job of documenting the fuzzy and vague timeline communicated about LW [8]'s release to this point. People need to understand it is the vague speak on the actual release timeline which is the most frustrating aspect of the LW [8] communication out of NewTek.

For some reason we all expect something to happen today regarding [8]. But my guess is today will come and go without word one from NT. The forum should be interesting over the next few days.

All he nailed is that you can take a set of quotes out of context and be able to make any point you chose.

Bones_3DFC
03-22-2004, 08:57 AM
Theo
that went better than I had anticipated.
Yes I truly do earn money, freelancing, using Lightwave.
I'm currently involved in creating 3D environments and custom
objects/animation and compositing for an independent film maker.

I'm proud to be "one of us" and happy to read that I am.
I love Lightwave and try to keep a positive attitude.
Shaking up a thread is fun, too. :)

theo
03-22-2004, 09:04 AM
Digi- that is exactly my point as well. It does look as though the character animation features are going to be reworked to a whole new level within LW8. This is great news!

So much so that I cannot for the life of me understand why there is a debate on another thread about MB and Messiah. The new LW may very well be on par with these contendors, if not surpass them.

Not to mention the fact that this will totally streamline a project I am currently getting ready to start, which is the cause for much impatience on my end. To have access to these new features, features that it look as though LW 7.5 is short on, will more than likely be a major boost to my productivity.

lasvideo
03-22-2004, 09:17 AM
It is unfortunate that when Director of Communications needs to
take a defensive stance when making an appearance in this forum. How cool it would be if instead ,he were able to be a part of an exchange of information, issues and honest interaction. The
increased customer appreciation and loyalty might be staggering.
Im sure Chuck is in an uncomfortable position at the moment,
and for anyone that has expereinced something similar, maybe its time to back off and just let things be. Abandon LW or be its champion...whatever.

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 09:27 AM
Chuck's quote:

All he nailed is that you can take a set of quotes out of context and be able to make any point you chose.

:o I'm so embarrassed. My apologies.

NewTek has in the recent past never provided release timeframes. Is this True? I always believed it was. Why is it with version [8] NewTek decided to provide a timeframe? I hope you can appreciate the type of implied message a customer receives when purchasing a LW 7.0-7.5 upgrade with DFX+ and a free upgrade to LW [8] when it is ready 4Q 2003. I know you were selling LW 7.5 and DFX+. I know that is what I bought and you guys delivered as advertised. But the marketing message I got was that I was purchasing LW [8] and got DFX+ as a bonus for making the early purchase. I never thought twice about it. Even the label on the bottom of the DFX+ box says "Lightwave 8.0 Upgrade DFX+4/7.0+".

Just my opinion.

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 09:34 AM
lasvideo,

Clear unambiguous timeframe for release solves everything.

If it's August 12, 2004.... some will be upset.... but at least we know.

pixelinfected
03-22-2004, 09:43 AM
developing is not an exact science, if developer could predict the finish date, they not are developers, are magician ;-)

newtek need a time to finish, we must give us the time to finish work fine, or you prefer tomorrow to have a bugged and uncoplete version of software, that instead of help you in your work, crash or waste your time, and damage your working deadlines?

DigiLusionist
03-22-2004, 10:54 AM
If programming an application that has been around as long as LW is such an inexact science, I'd hesitate to even call it a science.

And, no. We're not saying we want a buggy release. We never said or suggested that. That argument is a non-sequiter.

badllarma
03-22-2004, 10:59 AM
I'm sorry but I'm agreeing here with yog the things we are seeing written now (no quotes given) are just the same stuff I was reading in December here in fact not just here but also in 3D World magazine.

Chuck he may of not quoted you fully but the impression I got from reading all your posts is the same what I'm reading now so basically we have come full circle and still not better off :rolleyes:

None of us have any idea when lightwave 8 will be released end of story. I am sick and tired of reading the same crap here about "soon" or "near" release it's been in Beta since December for goodness sake and not lets forget the character animation stuff eg. Ik Boost was WORKING as early as Siggraph 2003.

June 7th 2003 is when I paid for my upgrade if we reach 7th June 2004 I WILL soon after contact my reseller for my money back and sell my seat of Lightwave, because as far as I am concerned Lightwave 8 is vaporware, until it lands on my door step or allows me to download it.

Yes I perfectly understand project slipping, I've programed application programs myself BUT 3 MONTHS (Jan Feb Mar not including 2003 slipping on the orginal release date times) that is some sort of bloody slip. :rolleyes:

And finally if it is released before June it best be ROCK solid after all these months of testing.

artstorm
03-22-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by badllarma
I am sick and tired of reading the same crap here about "soon" or "near" release it's been in Beta since December for goodness sake

Actually, it's been in beta since October. Remember the "only 72 days left" letter going out in october, stating that LW8 was in it's beta stage. :)

mrunion
03-22-2004, 11:19 AM
..(erased)..

Chuck
03-22-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by badllarma
I'm sorry but I'm agreeing here with yog the things we are seeing written now (no quotes given) are just the same stuff I was reading in December here in fact not just here but also in 3D World magazine.

Chuck he may of not quoted you fully but the impression I got from reading all your posts is the same what I'm reading now so basically we have come full circle and still not better off :rolleyes:

None of us have any idea when lightwave 8 will be released end of story. I am sick and tired of reading the same crap here about "soon" or "near" release it's been in Beta since December for goodness sake and not lets forget the character animation stuff eg. Ik Boost was WORKING as early as Siggraph 2003.

June 7th 2003 is when I paid for my upgrade if we reach 7th June 2004 I WILL soon after contact my reseller for my money back and sell my seat of Lightwave, because as far as I am concerned Lightwave 8 is vaporware, until it lands on my door step or allows me to download it.

Yes I perfectly understand project slipping, I've programed application programs myself BUT 3 MONTHS (Jan Feb Mar not including 2003 slipping on the orginal release date times) that is some sort of bloody slip. :rolleyes:

And finally if it is released before June it best be ROCK solid after all these months of testing.

Our competitors have had situations where they slipped release estimates by years, and I can assure you we are not in such a situation. Releases being three months or more from an estimate are in fact common in the computer industry.

Typically in the past we have not pre-announced upgrades and we have not pre-sold upgrades. Circumstances in that last couple of years required that we do things differently. We needed to make it clear that we were actively developing LightWave, that the next generation was in fact under way, and to demonstrate the product as we progressed to illustrate the point. It is an industry fact that pre-announcing a new version of a product immediately halts the sales of the current version without some action to maintain sales, and so from the time we announced LightWave [8] all [7.5] purchases included a free upgrade to [8]. We also partnered with eyeon to provide a great deal for LW users. The only way to provide that to [7.5] owners was with a pre-order LW[8], and we did not want to withhold a great deal from folks who already had [7.5].

In sum we feel we've done our best for good reasons and with the best of intentions. Certainly we do understand that many people are frustrated that LightWave [8] is taking longer than originally estimated. While we may not have announced a specific date, given the videos of the product features in use we do feel there has been plenty of communication to indicate that we're working hard and that the product is in fact getting nearly ready.

Hindsight is always 20-20, and anyone can be taken to task in a situation like this even though they have done their best to be as accurate as possible with estimates and as careful as possible with language at every stage. We thank those of you who meet this situation with patience, and we also thank those of you who have concerns and choose to express them to us as well. We'll certainly consider the feedback for future reference.

Chuck
03-22-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by artstorm
Actually, it's been in beta since October. Remember the "only 72 days left" letter going out in october, stating that LW8 was in it's beta stage. :)

Complex products spend a long time in beta, even after they are "feature complete", meaning that all features programming is basically complete - though it is often not the case at "feature complete" that the features work, and even when they do the testing process may indicate that they need to be revised substantially to meet the needs of the artists who will be using the tool.

Steve McRae
03-22-2004, 12:10 PM
"While the release is very close, it looks like we can allow a few extra days on the specials, which had been scheduled to end on March 21st. "

This is a joke. If it is going to end on a certain date - make it end. Don't tell people it is going to end and then keep extending it.

:mad:

Netvudu
03-22-2004, 12:13 PM
patience atomman, patience. The third extended special offer for 7.5 is really close :D

HowardM
03-22-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by atomman
"While the release is very close, it looks like we can allow a few extra days on the specials, which had been scheduled to end on March 21st. "

This is a joke. If it is going to end on a certain date - make it end. Don't tell people it is going to end and then keep extending it.

how many more times will you extend this Newtek?


:mad:

That better be a joke!
:mad:

Chuck? did you guys really extend it AGAIN?
what kind of bull**** is this?

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 12:20 PM
It is times like this where software companies decide to release software regardless of bugs. LOL.

A clear, explicit, and understood release timeline would help this situation.

Just my opinion ... of course.

cresshead
03-22-2004, 12:24 PM
maybe march 22nd is for lw7.6?
...we get ik booster for 7.6!....would tide me over till august!

...8 could be for siggraph...

Mark
03-22-2004, 12:33 PM
Dear Chuck,

Perhaps its no coincidence that you should be posting today, although the smoke coming off the bulletin board computer might have been a warning sign. I and many others will appreciate more effort being put into rounding off a pristine release of LW 8 than to accurate timing of an actual release. However careful you have been with wording at Newtek and however forthcoming you have been with prerelease videos and the like, the cardinal error seems to have been with announcing a date at all, albeit this was done with the best of intentions. It creates a large target to be shot at, especially when it is missed. At this stage, further dates could also be missed, but a days/months/years(no surely not) guide might quiet things down. I have to agree with Badllarma to the extent that some of us paid a not insubstantial amount of money almost a year ago for LW 8 and having DFX+ for the rest of that year only goes so far. I can only end by saying that this lesson must be learnt and the mistakes not repeated as the considerable loyalty of Lightwavers cannot be taken for granted especially the professionals whose livelihood rely on this excellent software.
Lets hope 'getting nearly ready' means within the next month. Good luck, Chuck, Proton and the guys and gals we don't hear from on the board.
Mark.

lonestar1
03-22-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Mark
I have to agree with Badllarma to the extent that some of us paid a not insubstantial amount of money almost a year ago for LW 8 and having DFX+ for the rest of that year only goes so far.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have ordered it almost a year ago? There were only two reasons for you to order that early. One was DFX+, the other was your own impatience. You can blame Newtek for tempting you with DFX+, but you can only blame yourself for yielding to it.


I can only end by saying that this lesson must be learnt and the mistakes not repeated as the considerable loyalty of Lightwavers cannot be taken for granted especially the professionals whose livelihood rely on this excellent software.

Enough with the veiled threats. If you want to switch to another 3D package, go ahead. You'll find that Maya, etc. have schedule slips just like Newtek and everyone in the software industry. You can't repeal Murphy's Law any more than you can repeal the law of gravity.

The only lesson here is that some Lightwave customers cannot accept delays in a mature fashion.

Mark
03-22-2004, 01:15 PM
Lonestar1,
firstly, impatient or not, Newtek, I hope, has benefitted form the money (and its not just me) for over a year. Maybe that's what Chuck was referring to in his post.
Secondly, any veiled threats are in the mind of the reader not mine. Perhaps that's the benefit of 'maturity'.
Mark

animotion
03-22-2004, 01:19 PM
I am going to take the un popular position and go along with NT on this. I Know, I know,..... but I do want a solid LW8. Besides looking at the deformation tool(s) I won't be able to use LW8 for a while until the current project is completed, so it won't matter that much right now.

Keep up the good work Chuck.

Animotion

:)

hrgiger
03-22-2004, 01:20 PM
Yeah, I would have to agree with lonestar1. Completely.

prospector
03-22-2004, 02:27 PM
I hearby make null and void, Murphys Law

So it is written, so shall it be done.

wapangy
03-22-2004, 02:37 PM
:)

SamuraiSlayer
03-22-2004, 02:51 PM
(dont be offended, i might not be talking specifically to you...)

You guys aren't so mad at this release date thing, you just don't have any other way to spend your time 'til the release, so you're posting on this thread and taking up more of Chuck's time that he could be using to do more productive things than satisfy your curiosities and correct your poorly worded complaints containing out of context quotes. This thread is obviously not accomplishing anything and NewTek is NOT going to just get frustrated and tell you the release date.

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 03:00 PM
You might want to add your run on sentences to the "...poorly worded complaints containing out of context quotes."

:D

hrgiger
03-22-2004, 03:11 PM
Now I'm past the point of wanting LW8 so bad. Now I just want them to ship 8 so they can start working on that SDK to work with FPrime, not to mention open up LIghtwave for even more add-on compatibility.

SamuraiSlayer
03-22-2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
You might want to add your run on sentences to the "...poorly worded complaints containing out of context quotes."

:D

It's not a run-on sentence, its a compound sentence. If you went to school you'd know that.

cresshead
03-22-2004, 03:39 PM
what's all this about a sentence?

has someone been naughty?

..surely there's no need to lock anyone up for writing about lightwave??

confuzzed!

steveg

SamuraiSlayer
03-22-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
what's all this about a sentence?

has someone been naughty?

..surely there's no need to lock anyone up for writing about lightwave??

lol... jr_sunshine skipped chapter 4 in his "Elements of Language" book

theo
03-22-2004, 04:39 PM
SamuraiSlayer, you are corrupting my thread. Please stay on subject or I shall be forced to beat your non-existent avatar about the head and shoulders.

You can always start your own grammar class on another thread. I am positive the Newtekian beings would appreciate ANYTHING in their forums being discussed other than the delivery date of the LW8 child.

SamuraiSlayer
03-22-2004, 05:00 PM
if you read back you'll see that i'm not the one that is giving grammar lessons

but to get back on subject hmm lets see here...

When's LW8 gonna be released

oh and dont talk about my avatar, buddy

jr_sunshine
03-22-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by SamuraiSlayer
lol... jr_sunshine skipped chapter 4 in his "Elements of Language" book


You know; , . I think me remember having trouble , with grammar?

What was I thanking !

TSpyrison
03-22-2004, 08:12 PM
http://www.cgfocus.com/NewsDetails.cfm?NewsID=1230


"LightWave 3D [8] is expected to ship within weeks"

prospector
03-22-2004, 09:00 PM
There's no info there..

Within weeks of what?
The spring equinox?
the summer solstice?

the return of the mothership and Haleys comet?

If you don't have a beginning countdown date then within weeks can STILL mean anything.

DigiLusionist
03-22-2004, 09:11 PM
My money's on the return of the mothership. Which will be cool, since we can model and animate the little gray bastards using LW8's new CA tools. :cool:

js33
03-22-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by prospector
There's no info there..

Within weeks of what?
The spring equinox?
the summer solstice?

the return of the mothership and Haleys comet?

If you don't have a beginning countdown date then within weeks can STILL mean anything.

Well it's 4 weeks to the day until NAB 2004. So there's your release date.

Monday April 19th, 2004. :D

Good thing about this is we get to watch the live stream from NAB. But of course the stream will be intermittant on the first day and better on the second and then pretty good on Wednesday and Thursday just like last year and the year before. :D

Cheers,
JS

badllarma
03-22-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by lonestar1
The only lesson here is that some Lightwave customers cannot accept delays in a mature fashion.

The only lesson here is some of us have tighter deadlines than others :)

Right I'll agree to disagree, everyone has there own opinion and I have stated mine (thanks BTW Chuck as I know this is not a free speach forum).
As far as I am concered I have no AND will make no further comments on this subject in any of the threads, we all have work to do after all :)
It will be here when it gets here, lets hope it's sooner rather than later.

gavinfx
03-23-2004, 07:09 AM
I agree with a previous post that the current 7.5c character setup (IK) is tougher than it should be and is very time consuming. While "patiently" waiting for LW8 I bought the Thomas 4D rigging setup plugin and have saved DAYS of character setup time. Highly recommend it. IK already built, limits set, and it's easy to conform to ANY biped or quadraped.

Anyone involved with immediate character animation needs should get this plugin - it's dirt-cheap also. Gotta love that. The maker really seems to enjoy what he does and comes out with new and improved versions every couple weeks.

TyVole
03-23-2004, 07:34 AM
You should also consider SimpleRigger, which is completely free. Yesterday, I rigged two characters with it within an hour (not including weight maps.)

And the rigs are relatively very fast.

pixelinfected
03-23-2004, 07:47 AM
the real problem of character animation in lw7.5c is not a rigging, but the slower opengl, slower ik chain, slower expression evalution. and that is a core problem, not a rigging problem

gavinfx
03-23-2004, 07:54 AM
Didn't say there was a problem with rigging.

I just said it's tough and time consuming to do it (and do it well).

The LW8 movies I've seen so far look like the automatic rigging is pretty fast and optimized from 7.5c. Can't wait to use it.

petermark
03-23-2004, 08:00 AM
I can't wait either...

So, Newtek...

HAND IT OVER, WITH ALL SPEED!

amorano
03-23-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Newtek communicates pretty well. Better than other software companies that I have dealings with.

You'll rarely find a software company that will put an exact date on the release of future software.



The problem with this logic is that most OTHER companies deliver major updates every so often (like 6-8 months) not 2+ years.

hrgiger
03-23-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by amorano
The problem with this logic is that most OTHER companies deliver major updates every so often (like 6-8 months) not 2+ years.

Not always true.

And most OTHER companies don't lose the two original programmers plus a slew of others all at one time either. Kind of makes sticking to that 6-8 month schedule a little difficult.

jr_sunshine
03-23-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Not always true.

And most OTHER companies don't lose the two original programmers plus a slew of others all at one time either. Kind of makes sticking to that 6-8 month schedule a little difficult.

A valid point.... but it is not the customers fault for the loss of developers.

Steve McRae
03-23-2004, 11:45 AM
I would not care a hill of beans how long Newtek took to complete their next edition of LW - . . .

EXCEPT

. . . that they have my money

This is an issue of principal for me.

My complaint has always been about Newteks communication policy and seemingly condecending attitude towards people who have paid for a product that will arrive much later as was expected.

Newtek (and many people participating in this forum) seems shocked that anyone would be upset about this.

Furthermore the continuous exentions that the deadline for the DFX and RealVis deal has recieved is simply silly and reduced Newtek's credibility further in my eyes.

I would like to be treated a little better as a customer by a more open and transparent communication policy.

pixelinfected
03-23-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Not always true.

And most OTHER companies don't lose the two original programmers plus a slew of others all at one time either. Kind of makes sticking to that 6-8 month schedule a little difficult.

not complete true, alias lose its best developer which found McNeel, rhino3d developer.

pauland
03-24-2004, 01:22 AM
I think Newtek will deserve a big pat on the back when they get LW8 out the door, given their difficullties.

I guess then we'll get a new kind of complaint from the complaints brigade, one things is sure, they won't stop moaning.

Paul

hrgiger
03-24-2004, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by pixelinfected
not complete true, alias lose its best developer which found McNeel, rhino3d developer.

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Alias had two original developers for two seperate programs (modeler and layout) who both left at the same time along with a handful of the other developers too. If just Stuart Ferguson had left, it wouldn't have caused such a delay with Lightwave 8. The other developers and Allen couldh have taken up the slack somewhat.

I also like how all the complaing about the delay in 8 has been happening here but we haven't heard word one from Lux about their vaporware.

hrgiger
03-24-2004, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by atomman
I would not care a hill of beans how long Newtek took to complete their next edition of LW - . . .

EXCEPT

. . . that they have my money

This is an issue of principal for me.I [/B]

Ah, you probably would have just spent it on strippers and beer anyway.

My complaint has always been about Newteks communication policy and seemingly condecending attitude towards people who have paid for a product that will arrive much later as was expected.

This is new for Newtek. They didn't use to make announcements before they released the software. It would just show up at a trade show one day. You most likely would have been more then pissed if they hadn't said a word this whole time. Everyone would have thought they were going out of business. At least they've been keeping you informed.


Furthermore the continuous exentions that the deadline for the DFX and RealVis deal has recieved is simply silly and reduced Newtek's credibility further in my eyes.

So what? A lot of people that couldn't afford to take advantage of these offers last year might be able now to take advantage of these offers. I'm sure they're pretty grateful. I've never heard people complain before when a company has given more opportunity to save people money or give them something more then they bargained for.

hrgiger
03-24-2004, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by jr_sunshine
A valid point.... but it is not the customers fault for the loss of developers.

But it is their fault for assuming that Newtek without developers, having to take the time to hire new developers, get them familiar with the code of an enormously huge program (two programs actually) can keep a timeline of output every 6-8 months. A little unrealistic.

Lightwolf
03-24-2004, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by pixelinfected
not complete true, alias lose its best developer which found McNeel, rhino3d developer.
Yeah, but aw had hundreds others familiar with the code, and didn't loose (most of) the whole bunch at the same time. Andy they still have Jos Stams (Mr. Fluid Dynamics) ;)
Cheers,
Mike

Ade
03-24-2004, 04:23 AM
As moving our studio to Lightwave and have paid for lw8, this delay doesnt look good on me. I recommended lw8 but this doesnt make them look good, I keep telling everyone here thats how newtek is, theyd rather release a bug free app than rush it...Time is ticking and the all mighty dollar speaks louder and louder..."where is what we paid for"?

Exper
03-24-2004, 04:26 AM
The new Dev. Team needs time to be in confidence with the code...
please stop all these moanings!

Bye.

retinajoy
03-24-2004, 05:05 AM
"When one shouts, one can not hear"

Quote from Former Cow, I mean Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher answering to a screaming protestor.

:D :confused: :D

nt65
03-24-2004, 05:27 AM
One thing I dont understand is NT could have used the money they received from the LW8 upgrades and deposited into an Australian bank from the time they started this upg to LW8 and just from the interest alone they could have hired two very descent programmers to help them out.
I am guessing there's atleast 7000 worldwide that have upgraded. That comes to $US3465000 - almost 3.5 million. The interest alone would have paid for two top programmers to help out.
The thing is, to save face from all this, I hope that they have some descent tools that atleast are on the same level as the other 3D apps that are moving forward. Obviously, compositing wont be integrated as they gave us DFX+. I just hope I have made the right choice in waiting this long. Its funny, usually they just sneak up on us with a flash bang upg. This time, it has been very uncharacteristic and embarassing for them to say the least.

Yes I am upset I havent got it, but man I cant wait to play.

Good luck NT, I hope this has been worth it.
:)

Lightwolf
03-24-2004, 05:29 AM
nt65... even a thousand programmers would need time to get accustomed to the code... More programmers does not mean better code in less time, quite to the contrary in many cases.

Cheers,
Mike

nt65
03-24-2004, 05:34 AM
Lightwolf... I agree that one thousand programmers would not cut it, as it is a standard rule when devleoping large s/w apps not to through more programmers at it, as it blows dev time and budgets right out the window. Thats what XP programming is all about. But what I am saying, is there must be atleast two programmers out there that are extremely familiar with the SDK to have helped out.
Look at what Worley have done with their rendering tool. Everyone loves it - and its damn quick. Worley must have a very good grasp of the SDK surely?

Lightwolf
03-24-2004, 05:51 AM
nt65... Knowing the SDK is just a part of the equation. The magic behind FPrime is that Worley wrote a complete rendering engine. The only information he pulls from the SDK is object/light geometry/positions as well as a variety of settings like surface attributes (After all, that's all he can get). All of the actual evaluation happens within FPrime itself (So, he can pull the surface colour for a certain spot on a surface, but not the colour after the object has been shaded). I would assume that hooking up FPrime to LW was harder (or at least on par to) than writing the actual rendering core itself.
While the SDK exposes loads of inards, that doesn't mean that anyone familiar with it can easily program within the core of LW. While much will be similar, we can only guess as to how well it is programmed, and how well documented it is. Plus, there are tons of caveats when working with foreign code (you could for example think you sped up/optimized a certain bit, only to find out that it introduces a bug somewhere else, which was the original reason for the code to be like it was.) New programmers will certainly lack that experience.
Anyhow, we don't know how many people are actually on the LW8 code, so much of this is pure speculation.
Cheers,
Mike

pauland
03-24-2004, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by nt65
One thing I dont understand is NT could have used the money they received from the LW8 upgrades and deposited into an Australian bank from the time they started this upg to LW8 and just from the interest alone they could have hired two very descent programmers to help them out.
I am guessing there's atleast 7000 worldwide that have upgraded. That comes to $US3465000 - almost 3.5 million. The interest alone would have paid for two top programmers to help out.

I think they have hired some decent programmers. I suspect that the staff is larger than two and they probably need the first $1,000,000 for Chucks annual salary... ;-)

Paul

Adrian Lopez
03-24-2004, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
This is new for Newtek. They didn't use to make announcements before they released the software. It would just show up at a trade show one day. You most likely would have been more then pissed if they hadn't said a word this whole time. Everyone would have thought they were going out of business. At least they've been keeping you informed.You're missing atomman's point. If they hadn't said a word this whole time then they wouldn't have taken any pre-orders, and customers would still have their money. If no money had changed hands then I see no reason why people would be pissed (the same way that people aren't pissed about Modo's current vaporware status), although they might indeed be wondering about Lightwave's future (the same way that people are wondering about Modo's future).

pauland
03-24-2004, 06:53 AM
People would be moaning, regardless of whether they paid or not.

I suspect that most that moan would be moaning about something else if they couldn't moan about Newtek because their glass is always half empty, smaller than they expected it to be, the wrong colour and they expected a topless barmaid to supply it. Besides the beer they're drinking is never as good as the one they didn't buy, but they could tell the brewery what they should have done to make it better and faster to brew.

Paul

Ade
03-24-2004, 07:19 AM
Because my boss took my advice to move to Lightwave from 3ds for modeling etc as it was a cheaper package and mor epower to it, I am taking the heat everytime they ask whats the status of the release! I mean he understood when they said end of December, then 1st quarter next year, but this quarter is almost up, it doesnt look good on me or Newtek in a business sense.
I know we have LW7.5 right now but part of the reason we went LW8 was for its animation aspects.


ALL I can ask from newtek is maybe some sort of confirmation? Say somthing like-

"its all going to plan, the cd's have been printed, everyone stand bye"....

Signal to Noise
03-24-2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Ade
...I know we have LW7.5 right now but part of the reason we went LW8 was for its animation aspects....

So your boss or company decided to run with [8] solely based on preview marketing blurbs and news about the new animation tools? Or did they actually have a chance to extensively demo the new software hands-on?

I'm surprised a company would lay out money, and not to mention risk, for a product that hasn't been released yet (nor available as a demo afaik) and then be upset when delays arise.

mattclary
03-24-2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Because my boss took my advice... I am taking the heat... it doesnt look good on me...

I hope we've learned a valuable lesson here. ;)

Rich
03-24-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Signal to Noise
I'm surprised a company would lay out money, and not to mention risk, for a product that hasn't been released yet (nor available as a demo afaik) and then be upset when delays arise.

It seems it's available to some companies. There is a press release in the Newtek news section about how Digital Extremes has integrated LW8 into their development pipeline.

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/03-22-04a.html

pauland
03-24-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Rich
It seems it's available to some companies.

I would assume they were involved in beta testing.

paul

mkiii
03-24-2004, 10:26 AM
It's pretty normal for companies to take a greater interest in someone who might be buying lots of licenses. It's amazingly easy to get a sales rep resplendant with trial copies of software, or betas if you are going to spend serious cash.

Unfortunately, most of us are just single figure users & have less clout. That's just the way of the world.

eggy
03-24-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by mkiii
It's pretty normal for companies to take a greater interest in someone who might be buying lots of licenses. It's amazingly easy to get a sales rep resplendant with trial copies of software, or betas if you are going to spend serious cash.

Unfortunately, most of us are just single figure users & have less clout. That's just the way of the world.

So the customers are not treaded equally anymore, sounds like Newtek is adopting discreet (3ds max) politics. :(

Lightwolf
03-24-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by eggy
So the customers are not treaded equally anymore, sounds like Newtek is adopting discreet (3ds max) politics. :(
I don't think there is one single company in the world that treats all customers equally.
Cheers,
Mike

retinajoy
03-24-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by eggy
So the customers are not treaded equally anymore, sounds like Newtek is adopting discreet (3ds max) politics. :(

We should not take speculation by others, who are unlikely to have any insider information as fact. There were companies and single users who have Beta tested Lightwave in the past.

T-Light
03-24-2004, 11:04 AM
"I don't think there is one single company in the world that treats all customers equally."

Woolworths :p

Lightwolf
03-24-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by T-Light
"I don't think there is one single company in the world that treats all customers equally."

Woolworths :p
ROTFL :D hehe, is that equally as in equally bad? ;)
Cheers,
Mike

pauland
03-24-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by eggy
So the customers are not treaded equally anymore

All customers are equal. Some customers are more equal than others.

Seems fair enough to me. If someone wants 20 software licences, it's entirely reasonable that the company pays them more attention than my one licence, provided i get a good service too.

In terms of Beta testing, a customer with 10 licences doing beta tests is probably going to find more problems than a sole animator (genious animators excepted).

Paul

mkiii
03-24-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by retinajoy
We should not take speculation by others, who are unlikely to have any insider information as fact. There were companies and single users who have Beta tested Lightwave in the past.
What was speculative about it? I'm stating a simple fact.

If I want to buy 50 copies or more of a 3d App, I will have a rep visiting me before I can blink. I work for a games company, and reps for Maya & XSI are only too glad to visit us with a demo artist, PC & demo software. I don't think they are going to do that for me as an individual if I decide to buy a single copy of Maya for example.

It has always been the way of things. When Foundation Imaging was churning out CG with dozens & dozens of seats, did they wait for retail versions to be released, or did they get priveledged access to new updates & betas? What do you think?

Certainly, some single users do get to beta test if they are worthy, and most of us got the chance when LW6.0 betaforce was running - I have the T-Shirt to prove it, but that is not the same thing as giving preference to a big customer, so why bring it up?

eggy
03-24-2004, 11:49 AM
Oh, Newtek always act like they tread all of use the same way, I know they don’t.

dfx+ extra dongle:rolleyes:

retinajoy
03-24-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by mkiii

Certainly, some single users do get to beta test if they are worthy, and most of us got the chance when LW6.0 betaforce was running - I have the T-Shirt to prove it, but that is not the same thing as giving preference to a big customer, so why bring it up?

And I agree with most of what you say. Of course we have less clout than larger companies. My previous post was in the context of Eggys statement "sounds like Newtek is adopting discreet (3ds max) politics."

I don't think Newtek has got worse with their customers. I think better in many areas, but the LW8 upcoming release could have been handled better. People sometimes (not saying you) take other peoples statements out of context. That was what I was implying whilst trying not to offend. Failed that one haven't I.

mkiii
03-24-2004, 04:15 PM
No, I'm not offended, and I certainly wasn't trying to say that Newtek were being unfair if they did offer preferential treatment to big customers or especially talented individuals.

I agree that things have gone a little astray, and I believe that a good deal of the irritation we have with the delays was caused by that 70 odd days left before we launch message last summer (however it was worded).

In addition, the lack of confirmation that 8 would not be released by the end of last year until the last possible moment didn't do them any good either.

nuff said. I'm just biding my time now like everyone else.

KouunnoHito
03-26-2004, 12:03 PM
I believe the delay is based off 2 things;

1. Newtek is working hard to get the new functionality proper in LW8 for macs. But announcing this would cause a insurrection by PC users.

2. They are also taking the time to help better integrate F-prime and work on the new SDK.

prospector
03-26-2004, 06:02 PM
1. Newtek is working hard to get the new functionality proper in LW8 for macs. But announcing this would cause a insurrection by PC users.
If true, then a POX on Mac users:mad:

2. They are also taking the time to help better integrate F-prime and work on the new SDK.
This COULD wait till 8.5:mad:

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE !!!!!!!

Yog
03-27-2004, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by KouunnoHito
I believe the delay is based off 2 things;

1. Newtek is working hard to get the new functionality proper in LW8 for macs. But announcing this would cause a insurrection by PC users.

2. They are also taking the time to help better integrate F-prime and work on the new SDK.

One of the few solid bits of information we have had from Newtek is that work on revising the SDK so LW plays better with F-Prime will begin AFTER LW8 ships.

Signal to Noise
03-27-2004, 08:13 AM
First there was:

Originally posted by KouunnoHito
1. Newtek is working hard to get the new functionality proper in LW8 for macs. But announcing this would cause a insurrection by PC users.

Then there was:

Originally posted by Prospector
If true, then a POX on Mac users:mad:


And thus the "insurrection" begins!:rolleyes:

prospector
03-27-2004, 08:55 AM
Cmon now:)
If someone left you an opening like that, wouldn't you take it?:D