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jevinstudios
03-17-2004, 09:33 PM
Anyone else out there a little disturbed to have to pay $99 for a manual above and beyond the $495 we've shelled out for the pre-release upgrade of LW 8 that has been delayed?

More and more, this is not sitting well with me -- I don't know of any other app that charges for documentation for a major upgrade of their software.

NewTek -- will a PDF of the manual be included with the upgrade install disk of LW 8? If so, this doesn't bother me as much, but it still seems like you're nickel-n-diming the customer base a bit.....

Meaty
03-17-2004, 09:37 PM
Are you kidding me??? To hell with that... who sells software but doesn't include the directions on how to use it?

(this must be the first time Newtek has upset me... and I didn't get mad about the LW8 delay)

jevinstudios
03-17-2004, 09:41 PM
Nope -- not a joke. This is for real.

Susurrus
03-17-2004, 09:49 PM
Come on you two. You get an electronic manual with the install program. You can choose to pay for the entire 1000+ page manual as a book if you'd like to.

However that may change now that there will not be an electronic download version of LW8, as before the $99 was paying for the CD and printed manual. As it stands now everyone will be getting the CD.

Sus

TSpyrison
03-17-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
... but it still seems like you're nickel-n-diming the customer base a bit.....

nickel-n-diming would be charging for each point upgrade between major upgrades.. There are alot of other other things they could "nickel-n-dime" us on...

I dont mind an electronic version of the manual, I use the PDF file now more than I read the book, and I learn more about how to use the software from other books than from the manual anyway..

Meaty
03-17-2004, 09:56 PM
just seems a little cheap... this never happened in the past with the paid upgrades, maybe Newtek has just spoiled me too much with inexpenisive goods. I just can't imagine going to my boss after the delay in the upgrades and ask for another $300 for manuals for the three seats of LW we upgraded.

jevinstudios
03-17-2004, 09:57 PM
Sorry, Sus --

When I upgrade Maya, I get a box, with CD's and PDF manual, including a "what's new" supplement + training DVD's (the Maya manual is PDF because it's over 3,000 pages). When I upgrade After Effects, I get a box, with CD and manual. The same for Photoshop, Premiere Pro, etc. With LightWave, I get a CD -- that's all. And, according to NewTek Sales, the purchase of a manual is in place -- even tho LW 8 will be shipped as CD's (no box, etc.).

Yeah, the purchase is optional, but it just strikes me as VERY cheesy, especially for a major 3D application in a highly competitive market. If you want an upgrade with printed docs + install disk, LightWave now costs $594, plus the extra hassle of ordering the manual online from their site as a separate transaction (I'm sure shipping charges will apply as well, since it will not be shipped with the software, which will push the price of the book to over $100+).

I guess I like to write notes in my manuals, and even tab certain sections I frequent more often as a timesaver. Seems draconian, but it's a system I enjoy, and even bring my manual with me to get a cup of coffee, or read chapters during my down time if I want to learn somethin' new. Yes, that will cost more now. Just an irritation, that's all, like a nasty mosquito bite that itches the more ya scratch it....

tokyo drifter
03-17-2004, 10:33 PM
It sucks about the manual but I prefer a PDF version anyday. The new adobe reader has a really improved 'search text' feature, much faster then flipping through a book. Also they now have adobe reader for Palm OS and Pocket PC so I could also take the manual with me on my PDA. So no big loss for me.

Also if it makes you feel better, my copy of Flash MX Professional 2004 that came today didn't have a printed manual either. It was a sad little box with a cd and a little piece of paper advertising some plugins.

Beamtracer
03-17-2004, 10:35 PM
You could go down to Kinkos and print out the 1000 page manual. Then you can scribble all over it to your heart's desire!

GruvSyco
03-17-2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
Sorry, Sus --

When I upgrade Maya, I get a box, with CD's and PDF manual, including a "what's new" supplement + training DVD's (the Maya manual is PDF because it's over 3,000 pages). When I upgrade After Effects, I get a box, with CD and manual. The same for Photoshop, Premiere Pro, etc. With LightWave, I get a CD -- that's all. And, according to NewTek Sales, the purchase of a manual is in place -- even tho LW 8 will be shipped as CD's (no box, etc.).

Yeah, the purchase is optional, but it just strikes me as VERY cheesy, especially for a major 3D application in a highly competitive market. If you want an upgrade with printed docs + install disk, LightWave now costs $594, plus the extra hassle of ordering the manual online from their site as a separate transaction (I'm sure shipping charges will apply as well, since it will not be shipped with the software, which will push the price of the book to over $100+).

I guess I like to write notes in my manuals, and even tab certain sections I frequent more often as a timesaver. Seems draconian, but it's a system I enjoy, and even bring my manual with me to get a cup of coffee, or read chapters during my down time if I want to learn somethin' new. Yes, that will cost more now. Just an irritation, that's all, like a nasty mosquito bite that itches the more ya scratch it....


I think what is happenning with the prerelease is, you get ~$1900 in free software (on Windows) and ~$1700 (on Mac) in lue of a printed manual... I don't seem to recall any of those other companies doing anything like that. My understanding from what Chuck has stated here (or elsewhere) is that once the current pre-release deal ends... the packages that Newtek will be "shipping" will have the printed manual included.

I believe this whole deal was originally created when the initial release was going to be electronically distrbuted (all a part of the pre-release deal)...

I kinda like the idea of the free stuff... and, I much prefer an electronic manual anyway, so I can do text searches on it. Proton did a bang up job of getting the 7.5c manual into a handy dandy html help file... that has actually been added to the menu in 8.

Zach
03-17-2004, 11:15 PM
It'd be cool to get a what's new updated manual like the little motion mixer one with Lightwave 7.0.

The new dynamics, dopesheet, the IK Booster, and DI's Powertools and the EdgeTools features described in a small manual would be a nice addition to the current 6.0 and 7.0 ones I have.


If we don't get the Download upgrade, then we might get something like that in the mail.

JDaniel
03-17-2004, 11:40 PM
My problem w/ the manual is that it explains what things are , but not how to use them. :(

Ade
03-18-2004, 01:02 AM
I have always hated pdf/

MorituriMax
03-18-2004, 01:26 AM
if you hate the pdf, take it to kinkos and let them print it out for you.. then burn the cd... grin

riki
03-18-2004, 04:29 AM
I've always been an advocate for the PDF manual. It save paper, you can copy and paste tips you want to remember, plus it's easy to update.

Yog
03-18-2004, 04:47 AM
It's the way other packages are going.
The last two releases of MAX have not come with full printed manuals, the full manuals used to come in three volumes, instead the full manual comes as an electronic Help file with a printed "What's New" supliment (although this supliment alone is almost the size of a LW manual).

I hear that Newtek (mainly Proton) are revamping the electronic manual for LW8, and it's about time. It is really frustrating that in the last couple of PF's there are several sections in the Bookmark section that are not clickable, and even worse the Index itself isn't clickable. What is the point in that ? The index is referenced by section/section page number which isn't the same as the PDF's running number.

I really like MAX's help file, not only is it fullt searchable and cross referenced, but the collapsable section in the Contents work really well, and when you run a search it lists all the hits at once catagorised by section.
The only downside is that I think it might be a Windows only type of file.

mattclary
03-18-2004, 05:42 AM
OK, listen up you whiners: You have not purchased an upgrade to 8, it hasn't been offered by Newtek yet. What you have purchased is an upgrade to 7.x with a FREE downloadable version of 8 when it comes out. If you want a hard copy of the manual, it's $99.

It would probably cost you that to get it printed at Kinko's, let alone getting it properly bound.

jevinstudios
03-18-2004, 06:09 AM
Well, when I ordered, I thought I was getting an upgrade to 8, furnished with documentation, box, etc. I didn't want (or need) the DFX+ -- my studio is committed to AfterEffects for compositing, with Mirage for video paint. So, our Eyeon box is sitting on a shelf gathering dust. Eyeon refused to allow us to pass it on to another LightWave user FOR FREE (must admit, we got a lot of attitude when we approached them with this request, which made us even more determined not to invest in this software further), so we don't know what to do with it at this point.

All we wanted was to check out LW 8's modeling tools, since that's where LightWave exists in our pipeline. Call me a whiner -- just becoming more disappointed with the direction all this is taking.....

Earl
03-18-2004, 09:52 AM
Matt,

The wording on their order pages is not clear. They actually list one of the options as "Upgrade to LightWave [8] and take advantage of this extraordinary offer brought to you by NewTek and eyeon Software!"

So if people selected this option, then they have purchased an upgrade to 8, even if technically NewTek is internally counting it as an upgrade to 7.5 with a free electronic upgrade to 8.

It bothers me because many months ago I brought this up and asked Chuck to have them change the wording so people were absolutely clear that the upgrade was only an electronic one with no manuals. What's confusing is that when you proceed with the order, it states in the description "Windows LightWave [8] Upgrade Mac/PC plus DFX+" and says NO WHERE that the manuals must be ordered seperately.

The only reason this upsets me is because ordering online should be clear and easy - with no missing information. There's no reason NewTek couldn't have written that better. Likewise, there's no reason for anyone to be upset about the PDF manual and lack of box when they're getting free software in exchange.

mattclary
03-18-2004, 10:06 AM
http://www.newtek.com/buynow/software/lightwave%2Bdfx.html

LightWave 3D -- Upgrade

Upgrade to LightWave [8] and take advantage of this extraordinary offer brought to you by NewTek and eyeon Software!
If you are a registered LightWave owner , you can upgrade to the very latest in 3D software and get eyeon's DFX+ including the Visual Effects and 3D Modules for only $495!

You will get LightWave [8] when the software ships, but you will receive DFX+ with Modules 1 & 4 immediately. If you do not have LightWave [7] or [7.5] yet, [7.5] is included (software only, manual in electronic format-pdf) in this offer.

I believe this is what you are reffering to?

Yeah, if you order THIS, you should get a hard copy of LightWave (based on my interpretation). Note that with this deal, you get 7.5 as a download.

Chuck
03-18-2004, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
Anyone else out there a little disturbed to have to pay $99 for a manual above and beyond the $495 we've shelled out for the pre-release upgrade of LW 8 that has been delayed?

More and more, this is not sitting well with me -- I don't know of any other app that charges for documentation for a major upgrade of their software.

NewTek -- will a PDF of the manual be included with the upgrade install disk of LW 8? If so, this doesn't bother me as much, but it still seems like you're nickel-n-diming the customer base a bit.....

Actually the complete reference manual will be on the program CD as a full-featured HTML help system - fully indexed, searchable, launchable from the Help button on the LightWave interface. The new features have been documented of course but we've also fleshed out documentation on previously existing features in many cases. We have no doubt that users will find the is the most complete and most usable reference system that we've ever provided with LightWave.

claymation
03-18-2004, 10:13 AM
sadly the whole computer industry has gone PDF.

no one ships manuals anymore.

I guess in stead of asking for $300 for manuals you just ask for $20 to buy a few reams of paper to print them out at work.

That what I did with 7.5. I have my manual at home but printed out the sections I needed at work.

I am really not bothered by the lack of a manual since the training videos have been getting me alot further in less time.

I usually just search the pdf for the info on how a plugin works or what the buttons mean.

I wish they would make the manual cheaper however, but I'm not complaining I got DFX which is a good trade in my book.

WizCraker
03-18-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by jevinstudios
Anyone else out there a little disturbed to have to pay $99 for a manual above and beyond the $495 we've shelled out for the pre-release upgrade of LW 8 that has been delayed?

No not disturbed. Are you aware you technically did not buy the upgrade you bought the promotion software. Therefore Newtek will be sending you a Free Upgrade to 8 and they don't have to inlcude printed manuals.


More and more, this is not sitting well with me -- I don't know of any other app that charges for documentation for a major upgrade of their software.

Houdini from Sidefx. If you want the manuals it $250-500 depending on the version you bought.


NewTek -- will a PDF of the manual be included with the upgrade install disk of LW 8? If so, this doesn't bother me as much, but it still seems like you're nickel-n-diming the customer base a bit.....

No doubt Newtek will provide the manual in Electronic Form.

Chuck
03-18-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Earl
It bothers me because many months ago I brought this up and asked Chuck to have them change the wording so people were absolutely clear that the upgrade was only an electronic one with no manuals.

Hi, Earl!

I requested the clarifications, but they were apparently never implemented. Today I was able to make sure that the marketing web staff placed clarified text on the order pages - for the Virtual Cart, I'll have to check with the IT web staff.

Chuck
03-18-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
http://www.newtek.com/buynow/software/lightwave%2Bdfx.html

LightWave 3D -- Upgrade

Upgrade to LightWave [8] and take advantage of this extraordinary offer brought to you by NewTek and eyeon Software!
If you are a registered LightWave owner , you can upgrade to the very latest in 3D software and get eyeon's DFX+ including the Visual Effects and 3D Modules for only $495!

You will get LightWave [8] when the software ships, but you will receive DFX+ with Modules 1 & 4 immediately. If you do not have LightWave [7] or [7.5] yet, [7.5] is included (software only, manual in electronic format-pdf) in this offer.

I believe this is what you are reffering to?

Yeah, if you order THIS, you should get a hard copy of LightWave (based on my interpretation). Note that with this deal, you get 7.5 as a download.

7.5 is on CD - we've clarified that information as well, in the revised text placed this morning.

mattclary
03-18-2004, 11:18 AM
Chuck, the new text reads:

You will get LightWave [8] Electronic Upgrade (4 CDs with program, all new content, Reference manual in electronic format - full-featured HTML Help system) when the software ships, but you will receive DFX+ with Modules 1 & 4 immediately. If you do not have LightWave [7] or [7.5] yet, [7.5] is included (on CD, software only with manual in electronic format-pdf) in this offer.

The way I'm interpreting this, anyone upgrading to 8 (even once it's released) will NOT get a hard copy of the documentation by default.

Is that correct?

I don't necesarily have a problem with that, but just wondering.

If that is Newtek's intention, it would be nice if it was clearly stated somewhere to avoid these kinds of mis-understandings in the future.

Earl
03-18-2004, 12:15 PM
Matt, that was indeed the text/page I was referring to.

Chuck, I'm sure you did your part (as you always do). Maybe they should clone you so that no matter what department or team, there's always a Chuck to make sure things get done! Thanks for asking them to change this (again). ;)

jevinstudios
03-18-2004, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Chuck -- really appreciate the comments to help clear this up....

Vincent Brumbac
03-18-2004, 05:54 PM
Windows doesn't come with a manual. Bought Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 for $500, didn't come with a manual. Upgraded my Lightwave to 7.5 for $495, getting 8 on a CD when it comes out, got DFX+free (which came in a really nice box with manuals), got UVedit pro free (no manual) and not getting a manual for Lightwave. Do I feel as if the world is coming to an end? Naw! I feel like I ripped Newtek off. I'm sure I'll be getting a LW8 book to go along with the help system Chuck described. Newtek gives and gives to the community. Complaining about not getting a manual is rude in my pdf file.


Cheers,

Vincent D. Brumback

A man buys a 10 pack of hot dogs and only can purchase 8 pack of buns. Is he sad? No, for he gets to eat.

Wickster
03-18-2004, 07:11 PM
wouldn't it be cool if newtek had also included the manual along with uvedit pro as the free gift to those of us who waited.(wishful thinking)

well as for me anyways, i rarely read the manual. once i bought lightwave awhile back, i quickly went straight to the book store to buy me one of those tutorial books. but you've have to admit that it would be awesome to get it for free from newtek.

jevinstudios
03-18-2004, 08:59 PM
Up until today, I no idea of what type of reference material would come with LW8 -- the comprehensive help system sounds like an interesting idea. For those of you who think it's rude to bring this issue to the forefront in what sounds like complaining, please just know that I first went to sales with this question, and was only told that manuals were to be sold separately via a purchase link on the website for $99, and that LW 8 would also not be shipped with a box. That's all.

Many people like PDF's; I personally do not. But, if that's the way most companies are going, then that's the way it is, and gotta live with it. NewTek's idea is a very ambitious one, and if done right, could be a very cool thing. It's great to hear from Chuck that this type of experimentation is being implemented with the next software release. Hope it is a very good alternative to the traditional manual system.

Signal to Noise
03-18-2004, 09:35 PM
Lightwave by itself is a fantastic piece of software for the price we pay whether full version or upgrade. I spent $1600 on the LW/DFX+/Free Upgrade to [8] package deal knowing full well that wanting a hardcopy manual/CD would cost extra. Hell, the $99 fee would be sales tax for most people when talking high-end software! I don't mind paying it and will be ordering.

As for the argument that [insert competitor app name here] includes a manual and tutorial book and...blah, blah, blah you could say that 'competitor software' costs $3000: $2901 for the app and $99 for the other stuff of which you have no choice wanting or not in order to save some chump change.

Even discreet aren't providing manuals anymore unless you cough up $250(!!) or so on top of the way over-priced $4k for *cough-BUG INFESTED-cough* 3ds max.

Anyway, that's my 2 cent...err...$99 comment ;)

Jrg
03-19-2004, 09:03 AM
hey jevinstudios

you are not alone,i hate pdfs !!!

the thing about a comprehensive searchable helpsystem in html is great and fine, but i need a big book in my hands and a LW[8] box in my shelf, to all my other LW versions! ;)

and for 99$ or 85 euro a manual with hard cover please ;)

@chuck
i ask on this way!
have you receive my emails with some questions ?
or is this a wrong email [email protected] ?

little5points
03-20-2004, 06:15 AM
Ok...think about it this way...

1. Newtek announces the Lightwave 8 upgrade with printed manual for $595


2. But you have the option of getting the Lightwave 8 upgrade for $495 if you choose an electronic manual instead.




If they included the printed manual anyway, the base price would have to be adjusted to cover the cost of printing that giant manual (paper, printing, their shipping charges, etc.)

mkiii
03-20-2004, 07:19 AM
I'm just going to scribble out the word S E V E N on my manual & write E I G H T with a marker pen.

Stuff the manual, I want the App.

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 07:28 AM
Well, I'm not so concerned anymore now that I've just learned (thru this thread) of NT's ambitious manual generated thru LW in the form of a fully functional, searchable help system, as well as a PDF version in the install package. This creative thinking has helped me switch my viewpoint around a bit. Now, I'm actually looking forward to testing this puppy out -- if I don't like it, or if it doesn't work as expected, I'll shell out the cash for the printed version.

But, since I only use LW for modeling anyway, I think this system might really do the trick. Hats off to NT for actually thinking outside the box in this area, and for trying something new and daring with their upgrade.

When I started this thread, it was because I had very little information (I DO think this whole promotion was a bit clumsy on NT's part, and could have been done much better to avoid this kind of confusion, and to actually generate more interest instead of skepticism on their customer's part -- maybe NT will do a much better job next time....).

But, since I have become more enlightened as of late, I'm actually feeling more comfortable with LW8, and my anticipation is growing. Will eat my previuous words on this thread (salt & peppa anyone?)

hrgiger
03-20-2004, 09:23 AM
Well I certainly prefer a paper manual and I was a little miffed that I wasn't getting one for my $500 like I have in the past because currently, it's not that easy for me to shell out $500. I'll be ok with the help system though and hey, I'm an environmental kind of guy so I'll try to look at all the paper being saved.

However, as an idea, I think it would be a good one to include a paper manual on New Features only. They did this with the motion mixer with your LW7 upgrade and I thought that was cool.

Perhaps in the future, new buyers could get a Full manual and upgraders could get a limited manual covering only the new features of Lightwave. Chuck, do you think this is an idea that could work?

GruvSyco
03-20-2004, 09:28 AM
Jevin,

not sure if you were aware of this but the electronic documentation that will be incorporated into 8 can somewhat be previewd in 7.5 form here (http://www.newtek.com/freestuff/lwhelp/index.html), you can also download your own personal copy of it here (ftp://ftp.newtek.com/pub/Patches/LightWave_Windows/lw75c/LWHelpFile_Intel.zip). The version that ships with 8 should be even better and can actually be accessed from the app :)

jevinstudios
03-20-2004, 10:11 AM
HR --


However, as an idea, I think it would be a good one to include a paper manual on New Features only. They did this with the motion mixer with your LW7 upgrade and I thought that was cool.

Excellent suggestion! Get this with Maya, and it really helps in getting users acquainted with the new functions, w/o having to search thru the entire app for new additions/changes. PLEASE, NewTek, take this to heart. A very good idea!

Gruv --

Thanx for the linx -- will check 'em out!

K

Original1
03-20-2004, 02:00 PM
I don't mind the manual being eletronic form if the quality of the manual improves with lots more tutorials and workflow tips.

you got manuals with LW before and still had to shell out for Dan ablans books.

I just had to pay $100 for manuals for Flash MX 2004 and Director MX 2004 so its not unique to Newtek.

scnorman
03-20-2004, 05:32 PM
Maybe LW8 when done will ship quicker if we don't have to wait for a manual to be printed and boxes assembled - in that case "we don't need no stinkin manuals"

mouse_art
03-20-2004, 10:41 PM
I'm happy with online Help, i don't need a pdf( Reader is a cpu resource killer IMHO )

I need quickly help , when i work with LW, and the online help is perfect for that.