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PG-13
03-13-2004, 05:32 PM
Well I just helped (I hope) someone with answer, so I guess I earned the right to ask a dumb newbe question. :rolleyes:

When in modeler using the surface editor I'll add a color texture using a simple projection of an image. If I then move the object in the modeler the texture remains behind staying at the original position where it was applied. This is not the behavoir in Layout, only in modeler. My work-a-round has been to make sure my objects are in their final position before applying textures, or "assembling" complex objects in Layout.

Am I missing something?:confused:

BTW I do not have the world coordinates option selected in the surface editor.

digimassa
03-14-2004, 04:33 AM
:cool:
use UV maps^^

mkiii
03-14-2004, 06:56 AM
Hmm I thought to myself - 'He can't be bothered to look up this simple thing in the manual''.....
....Until I tried to find the info relating to standard mapping types in modeler. I couldn't find a single mention.

All the surfacing & texture projection stuff refers to Layout. It seems that a great deal of this material has just been lifted wholesale from the Lightwave 5.x manuals - ignoring the fact that most beginners are probably going to map stuff in modeler to begin with.

Cmon Newtek - make it a bit clearer for these guys. Put a mention of the way modeler uses World co-ordinates at the start of the Modeler section of the book.

PG-13
03-14-2004, 08:06 AM
Yes I knew that was another option, and UV mapping is next on my LW crash course (only had LW for 3 weeks). But I also think UV mapping may be overkill for objects who's geometry is simple and which won't be deformed in an animation.

Take a look at my first LW model (the USS Monitor) over in the Work In Progress section. Its geometry is simple (the reason I picked it for my first project) and there is not a UV map on the entire ship. No need.


Originally posted by digimassa
:cool:
use UV maps^^

PG-13
03-14-2004, 08:33 AM
Yes I did search the manual for an explanation of this behavior, and like you did not find anything.

More importantly why would they choose to impliment this U.I. inconsistency? IMHO All user interface elements should behave consistently throughout the program. There is no indication in the surface editor that you are stuck with world coordinates when in modeler. The check box is still there.

Being stuck with world coordinates in modeler also diminishes the usefulness of the otherwise great layer system in assembling complex objects.


Originally posted by mkiii
Hmm I thought to myself - 'He can't be bothered to look up this simple thing in the manual''.....
....Until I tried to find the info relating to standard mapping types in modeler. I couldn't find a single mention.

All the surfacing & texture projection stuff refers to Layout. It seems that a great deal of this material has just been lifted wholesale from the Lightwave 5.x manuals - ignoring the fact that most beginners are probably going to map stuff in modeler to begin with.

Cmon Newtek - make it a bit clearer for these guys. Put a mention of the way modeler uses World co-ordinates at the start of the Modeler section of the book.

mkiii
03-14-2004, 02:35 PM
With regard to assembling objects in modeler. You *can* move the pivot point for each layer to help with this, but the situation is not ideal, since you can't rotate it at all.

My menu layout has it under the Detail Tab, at the top of the Layers section menu.

toby
03-14-2004, 08:34 PM
I'm going to put these common questions on a web-page some day - copied from my earlier post:

Using spherical, cylindrical or planar maps in modeler will always mean the textures don't move when the geometry is moved, because the textures are positioned in relation to 0,0,0 of the layer, not the geometry (unless you use uv).

When you move geometry on a layer, you're not moving the object, you're moving geometry within the object - but 0,0,0 has not changed, so the textures don't either. Once you're in Layout, then you're moving the object.

This is the only way to have spherical, cylindrical or planar maps without having to apply uv coordinates. In 3DSMax for example, you must apply a UV map even to use a planar projection.

Normally you shouldn't be moving the geometry after texturing - move the object in Layout instead - but if you still need to, try using 'automatic size' in the texture pane.

PG-13
03-15-2004, 04:45 PM
I do understand what is going on now, I just don't agree with the inconsistent behavoir between the two modules of LW. Even if you want to call it just "movng geometry" in modeler, every layer is treated as a separate "sub object" with its own "object space" when in Layout. If Layout can maintain this info why not Modeler? "Sub Objects" in their own layers should maintain there individual "object space" (like in Layout), until they are merged with an existing "sub object's" layer at which point they would loose their "identity" and inherit the "object space" of that "sub object".

If this were the case there would be consistency between Modeler and Layout. And as a matter of fact there would be a more consistent parallel between Modeler layers and layers in PhotoShop.

If I want to do motion graphics with a PhotoShop image I bring into Final Cut Pro I leave those graphic elements in their own layers and when imported they can be manipulated individually. If that's not needed I'll merge the layers into just one element.

The same is true in LW. If elements need to moved independently keep them in their own layer, if not merge. But now layers are fully independent only in Layout. IMHO this is inconsistent and confusing.





Originally posted by toby
I'm going to put these common questions on a web-page some day - copied from my earlier post:

Using spherical, cylindrical or planar maps in modeler will always mean the textures don't move when the geometry is moved, because the textures are positioned in relation to 0,0,0 of the layer, not the geometry (unless you use uv).

When you move geometry on a layer, you're not moving the object, you're moving geometry within the object - but 0,0,0 has not changed, so the textures don't either. Once you're in Layout, then you're moving the object.

This is the only way to have spherical, cylindrical or planar maps without having to apply uv coordinates. In 3DSMax for example, you must apply a UV map even to use a planar projection.

Normally you shouldn't be moving the geometry after texturing - move the object in Layout instead - but if you still need to, try using 'automatic size' in the texture pane.

toby
03-15-2004, 10:22 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but I still like it the way it is -

On the one hand, you can move things independently in Modeler, the fact that the texture doesn't stick doesn't really stop you, you can also use the 'automatic size' feature or UV maps - and on the other hand, unlike FCP and PS, there is a hub between modeler and Layout, allowing you to do all of your placement in Layout.

Another thing that might help you is that you can parent things and set their pivot points in Modeler.

Perhaps you already have a different workflow, I know how frustrating it can be - but I'm curious as to what you're modeling, this has never been an issue for me -

PG-13
03-16-2004, 01:38 PM
While it is not _that_ be a deal now that I know how it works my main complaint is that a user interface should be consistent. The surface editor is the same in both Modeler and Layout, so it should function the same. The checkbox for world coordinates is there, it just doen't work when in Modeler.

As far as work flow goes, this limitation first cropped up when I had to add four rectangular stacks to my model of the USS Monitor. But let me give you an extreme example to make my point.

Lets say you're building a model of a victorian steam powered machine. This fanciful machine includes six big cast iron pulleys. And as was the practice of the time the pulley itself was a work of art, beautifully painted in red, forest green, with yellow pin stripes.

So with my machine in layer one and in the background, I build a beautiful pulley in layer two complete with textures. I then copy and paste the first pulley into layer one. Then back to layer two and move and rotate it into the next position and again copy/paste the next pulley into postion. In this manor all six completed pulleys are quickly copied into position. And if the pulleys needed to be individually animated I would just paste the pulleys into their own layers rather than layer one.

But in either case the way it stands now I have to go back and select each of the six pulleys and texture them individually in their final positions. Texture once and copy six times or copy six times and texture six times, which is faster?

digimassa
03-16-2004, 02:38 PM
:cool:
PG, dont talk bad about things you dont understand^^
Modeller is to create meshes and Layout is to animate them, so why should they work the same way?
Maybe someday you understand that the best position for new meshes is 0/0/0 facing Z+, there you create your pulleye or whatever and import this into layout 6times. If you place objects in modeller somewhere away from center its vety difficult to animate them without replacing pivot point in layout.

PG-13
03-16-2004, 06:12 PM
I understand the process just fine. There is no "bad talk" here. I just prefer a totally consistent U.I. And would expect that if a feature is present (the world coordinates check box in the surface editor while in modeler), that it would function.

Your point about preparing objects for animation has merit, but what if I am not building to animate? Or what if I am going to export the object for use in another application. Your saying I must move into Layout to complete the construction of my model. OK, no big deal, but it is counter intuitive, and in Layout I don't have the convenience of layers.

I appears from your syntax that I am conversing with someone who is young and passionate about LW. Have no fear I am on your side. I was at the debut of the Toaster at Amigaworld and was probably demoing Toasters before you were born. I must admit however, that I used Imagine in my Amiga days because I could not then afford LW. I am an old Newtek fan. I just think the the layer system in modeler could be even more useful and powerful. You could then complete many constructions in modeler before ever moving to layout.





Originally posted by digimassa
:cool:
PG, dont talk bad about things you dont understand^^
Modeller is to create meshes and Layout is to animate them, so why should they work the same way?
Maybe someday you understand that the best position for new meshes is 0/0/0 facing Z+, there you create your pulleye or whatever and import this into layout 6times. If you place objects in modeller somewhere away from center its vety difficult to animate them without replacing pivot point in layout.

mkiii
03-17-2004, 12:04 AM
Just UV map everything, then there is no problem. I can't remember the last time I just planar mapped something with a texture map.

As for the World Coords button not working in modeler - I agree about the inconsistency. Maybe it should be swapped for a Local Coordinates Button (on by default in Layout) and disabled in modeler. At least that would give a visual cue in modeler to those unused to the way it works.

digimassa
03-17-2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by PG-13
...I appears from your syntax that I am conversing with someone who is young ...

PG, I think Im twice your age at least, my syntax is this simple because of Im not an english nativ speaker; as a graduated master of laws I can speak german in a better way, even latin^^

I just try to help young rookie fireheads not to run into a wrong direction, but if you prefer, place your objects wherever you want, avoid the use of UV maps and be happy with your anger about this stupid textures:D

chilledaqua
03-17-2004, 10:22 AM
for a simple object you probably dont even have to create you're own UV, you can just unwrap it with the default cylindrical, cubic, spherical and you should be all set to go. its really just a click away. you can then export that map as a pdf and paint directly on it. I love how precice it can turn out with UVs

PG-13
03-17-2004, 01:16 PM
No anger really. Just a friendly dicussion of consistency in program design. Thanks for your help. :)


Originally posted by digimassa
. . .but if you prefer, place your objects wherever you want, avoid the use of UV maps and be happy with your anger about this stupid textures:D [/B]

PG-13
03-17-2004, 02:06 PM
Yep, it is clear that in most situations UV mapping is the way to go. Thanks for the suggestion and help. :)



Originally posted by chilledaqua
for a simple object you probably dont even have to create you're own UV, you can just unwrap it with the default cylindrical, cubic, spherical and you should be all set to go. its really just a click away. you can then export that map as a pdf and paint directly on it. I love how precice it can turn out with UVs