PDA

View Full Version : LightWave and Worley's "FPrime"



jro2a
03-12-2004, 01:21 PM
From what I've seen NewTeks got to be crazy to not have included Worley's "FPrime" with every copy of LW.
Job "1" at NewTek should have been expanding and
updating LW's "SDK" so "FPrime" can take advantage of all
LW's rendering features. (Volumetrics, lens flares, glow and
the Sasquatch plug-in ect...) Unless theres issues with
FPrime's final out-put quality (which I don't see) NewTek
really should have PLUGED FPrime into LW and used IT as
LW's default renderer.
I do not have FPrime (YET) but from everything I've heard
and seen this really seems like a no brainer.

Jim R.

james767
03-12-2004, 02:12 PM
yes. NewTek would be Ahead of there competition if they did

jro2a
03-12-2004, 02:34 PM
Don't get me wrong... LWs renderer IS and HAS always
been very good. (As far back as 1989). But the quality and
speed of FPrime is just well.......

Jim R.

Beamtracer
03-12-2004, 03:22 PM
Anyone not familiar with Fprime should go to Worley's website and check it out:

http://www.worley.com/

It can render complex scenes 20x faster than Lightwave's internal renderer. It's definitely the most significant plug-in ever developed for Lightwave.

The discount offer is only valid for orders placed "before" March 16, so that may mean that the discount price ends at midnight on March 15. Either way, I think it's worth the price of US$279.

For me, the smart vector motion blur will make it worth the purchase. This will speed up my renders so much.

I'll have to check out Fprime's 20x faster radiosity renders when I see it, and see if it's finally possible to use radiosity for animations.

"Progressive" rendering should also radically alter the way we work.

drclare
03-12-2004, 03:28 PM
So here is my question about Fprime though. Is it basically taking lightwave's rendering engine and plowing through the data much faster, or is it worley's own new rendering engine? Is the quality of a final Fprime render exactly the same as Lightwave's, or is it a little different. Did they basically just optimize Lightwave's renderer, or what? Could Newtek tighten up their code to get the same speed results, or did Worley invent a revolutionary rendering technology?

Beamtracer
03-12-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by drclare
did Worley invent a revolutionary rendering technology?
Yes, Fprime really is "revolutionary" new technology. There's nothing quite like it in the 3D industry. People using Maya and XSI are shocked when they hear about Fprime.

It's a plug-in that bypasses parts of Lightwave's rendering engine, taking on those parts itself in a much faster way. It's not a fully stand alone renderer, though I wonder if Worley could turn it into one later down the track.

After reading Worley's website, I get the impression that Fprime's radiosity is calculated in the same quality as Lightwave's, but Fprime is 20x faster.

The way Fprime is calculating motion blur is done in a fraction of the time of Lightwave's, but Fprime's motion blur quality is vastly superior to Lightwave's.

I think the words "radical" and "revolutionary" are not too strong to describe Fprime. I still haven't put my order in, though there are still a few days left to get the discount.

jro2a
03-15-2004, 02:21 PM
If this really is as good as it looks, (and it Does look GOOD),
I don't see why NewTek doesn't just go out and GET IT and make
"FPrime" part of LightWave. Right there, that would be a MAJOR
UP-GRADE, THE LIKES OF WHICH................
To leave "FPrime out as a 3rd part app. makes no sense.
(What a LW selling point that would be)!!!!


Jim R.

jro2a
03-17-2004, 02:39 PM
"FPrime" still neeeds work.... But what a NICE start....



Jim R.

Beamtracer
03-17-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by jro2a
I don't see why NewTek doesn't just go out and GET IT and make "FPrime" part of LightWave.I think Newtek is thrilled by Fprime, but I doubt if Worley would be willing to sell his little baby to anyone else.

I think it's OK as a separate item. It costs relatively little.

Darth Mole
03-17-2004, 04:26 PM
I believe there are some caveats with regards to FPrime. I've had scenes where I've had to wait as long - or longer - than an F9 preview to obtain the same level of quality with a radiosity render. That '20x faster' quote should be taken with a pinch of salt - I only say this to keep people's expectations realistic.

However, FPrime really kicks in when the scene is massively poly-heavy. Where LW starts to get bogged down, FPrime just keeps on truckin'.

For the time being, it's not a replacement for a final F9 render - there are too many differences and omissions (soft spotlight shadows, caustics, etc), not to mention plug-ins and so on - I'll be very interested to see what speed can be obtained when FPrime has to process third-party shaders and filters...

But this is just the start, and I'm glad I'm not on the outside looking in (maya, 3ds max, C4D users, etc)

drclare
03-17-2004, 05:32 PM
I hope that it sparks the competition in Newtek. Fprime shows that there is obviously a way to make LW's rendering engine faster, so I hope that Newtek takes this into account for their following updates.

Beamtracer
03-17-2004, 07:28 PM
It always stated on Worley's website that Fprime is around the same speed as LW's renderer for simple scenes. When the polycount gets high is where Fprime excels.

Other factors are radiosity and motion blur.

I think Worley's motion blur will speed things up also, by not sampling intermediate time slices.

Zarathustra
03-19-2004, 10:35 AM
The most revolutionary thing the FPrime brings to the table is Progressive Refinement. The ability to render a cheap and dirty version of your animation and then go back later and pick up at THAT quality level and improve it is BRILLIANT!

The render speed and everything else is remarkable but Progressive Refinement, IMO, is the most revolutionary thing. I'm saying this after arguing it's primarily just a previz tool for the last couple of weeks.

F9's gone. F10's nervously looking at that space next to it.

Darth Mole
03-19-2004, 03:25 PM
I've been playing with FPrime for a while, but today I used it properly on a personal project, and it's truly revolutionised working with LW.

For instance, I've been trying to use the Grid procedural to make ceramic tile bump maps, and it's incredibly tricky as the map exists in 3D space. So not only do you need to alter the usual variables (some of which are really finnicky) but its position in the mesh is also important - down to the mm in some places. With FPrime I was getting a realtime update as I tweaked settings, and I can also scroll-wheel into the scene for an extreme close-up. There's no way I could have achieved the same effect by repeatedly hiting F9. Well, not without going mad.

In another instance, I was using the Spreadsheet to tweak a number of identical lights - again, ordinarily a slow and painful procedure, but with an FPrime window open, it was just so easy.

While I knew FPrime was a major release, I hadn't quite grasped the enormity of it. Roll on FP2!!

Ge4-ce
03-20-2004, 04:22 AM
Just my 2 cents..:

FPrime cannot replace the F9 for all jobs (yet). Mainly because of the volumetric and other non-supported LW-features.

FPrime DOES make the entire CG workflow a WAY lot smoother!!! If you have 2 computers, it actually makes things progress a lot better.

I just rendered 250 frames in 10 minutes, LOW RES FPRime. that's bloody fast if you ask me. While I start doing the compositing on the other comp, I let Fprime refining the frames. This is done over network so while I'm busy, AfterFX constantly loades the refined images that FPrime refines.

HUGE timesaver if you ask me.

Then you can also render the scene with the LW renderer while you do the compositing with the other computer.

Lighting in LW now goes WAY faster because you can see realtime what you're doing. Especially with area lights! Also HUGE timesaver.

Surfacing goes also way faster..

Actually nothing but advantages, only you must see FPrime what it is made for. And that is NOT a LW renderer replacement. More an addition.

Zarathustra
03-20-2004, 12:06 PM
And that is NOT a LW renderer replacement.

Yeah, that was my stance but that's exactly what it is for me this weekend. 3 animations - 1 with 40 empty soda cans on a reflective wood table, 2 with 2 pyrex glass measuring cups on same tabletop. I F9ed with no AA with one of the pyrex animations and after 2 hours I still didn't have anything. 15 hours later I'm coming up on quality level 2 for a 90 frame animation using FPrime render.
For this weekend, it's totally replacing LW's renderer.

Ge4-ce
03-20-2004, 03:24 PM
Well yeah.. I agree with you on this one.. It's just like whatever you want to do.

Therefor I consider it as an addition wich I personally use when doing raytrace, arealights, radiosity and high-poly objects and some other stuff.

When FPrime does support all the things LW renderer supports, then it will definitly replace it. But I really can't do without some things right now. Even with other stuff that should be supported according to worley, there are problems.

Moving textures for example. I made a jet-exhaust with the flame being an object with moving surfaces and stuff. then I rotated that object a 360 and all the surfaces, and the flame went totally bonanza from a certain point of view.

Very weird.

robar3d
03-21-2004, 09:04 PM
Good lord! $399 for FPrime?! :eek:

Why the hell NewTek haven't thought about getting FPrime's technology incorporating into Lightwave in the first place?!

wacom
03-21-2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by robar3d
Good lord! $399 for FPrime?! :eek:

Why the hell NewTek haven't thought about getting FPrime's technology incorporating into Lightwave in the first place?!

I think it would be better for everyone if they just opened the SDK and let people choose which renderer they want to use. Of coarse if it was a fully functioning FPrime I'd choose it...

jro2a
03-22-2004, 02:19 PM
AGREED..........