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js33
03-09-2004, 02:30 PM
Hi all,

OK now that we all have our orders in for FPrime we can turn our collective speculation to LWPainter.

Is LWPainter another cool plug-in to come from Worley?

Could it be the 3D painting tool we have all been waiting for?

Is it nothing but a button he had on his LW to launch some other existing plug-in?

Cheers,
JS

cresshead
03-09-2004, 02:56 PM
uhh?

which video was it in???

animotion
03-09-2004, 03:02 PM
Its an all in one complete solution button.
Got a client that needs an animation? This button will paint one complete with models, volumetrics, and HDRI.

But because of the lack in LW's SDK it won't paint chick animations, sorry.

Go Worley!!
Animotion;)

js33
03-09-2004, 03:04 PM
It was in the very first F Prime video "FPrime_raytrace_demo.avi".
Under the buttons for G2 is a button called LWPainter.

Cheers,
JS

Kvaalen
03-09-2004, 03:09 PM
It' very possible that he put it there purposely (trying to tease us). IMO, it probably isn't something as complex as a full 3D painter since he was so busy with FPrime, i don't see how he'd have the time for that. Also he has never called a plugin of his a name with "LW" inside (I think). I know that doesn't proove anything, it's just something to take into consideration.

js33
03-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Yeah that's true. If it was a Worley plugin it would have a unique name. OK so what is it then?

Cheers,
JS

js33
03-09-2004, 03:39 PM
Maybe it should have said WL Painter. :D

Cheers,
JS

TyVole
03-09-2004, 03:43 PM
Maybe it's what's holding up 8. ;)

KillMe
03-09-2004, 06:37 PM
it could be that newtek has sub contracted him to produce a 3d painting module or plugins for lightwave

after all in our polls for what we would liek i think a mesh painting system was pretty high on the list

hrgiger
03-09-2004, 07:09 PM
God, I Hope it's not another plug-in by Worley. That man is trying to personally bankrupt me...

Meaty
03-10-2004, 01:40 PM
oh man... can you imagine painting your bump maps and color maps with F-Prime rendering it on the fly????

DROOOOOL!!!!!!!

Nemoid
03-10-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
God, I Hope it's not another plug-in by Worley. That man is trying to personally bankrupt me...

LOL!

From the name seems a tool to paint in Lw...this would be really great!!

:D

Rich
03-11-2004, 01:22 PM
I think it would be cool if LWPainter was like PaintFX for Maya. Now that would kick butt!

js33
03-11-2004, 01:29 PM
Yeah I was hoping that might be what it is. PaintFX rocks pretty hard and if Worley was to make one like that it would be a top seller too. Right behind F Prime.

I'm not worried that we lost the old programming team anymore because we have Steve and new guys at Newtek are doing some cool things too.

Cheers,
JS

Zach
03-11-2004, 02:00 PM
Oh my god, there is that button! hmmm

OFF
03-11-2004, 02:26 PM
may be it just announce..?

hrgiger
03-11-2004, 02:27 PM
I really hope it's in Lightwave rather then another plug-in. I've already been bad and bought FPrime. Let's hope it will already be in Lightwave 8 whatever it is. Perhaps Worley slipped and made a mistake and left it in the video.

theo
03-11-2004, 03:09 PM
Guys, I am not personally digging this LWPaint concept and I actually hope it ISN'T integrated in LW8 or above.

Listen, maybe for the cash-bound hobbyist or struggling student an included FREE painting module would be ideal. But in the real world when an application decides to become all things to all people it loses its sex drive, period.

I say leave the painting to a specific app like Bodypaint or similar. The new Bodypaint is, quite frankly, fantastic. I have been a professional 2D painter for years and I do know paint and for an app to pay proper respect to this craft it needs to have a FOCUS and not just thrown in whim-like as an add-on to another program.

Lightwave is already an incredibly powerful and deep app for the money. I say let Newtek continue to perfect what we have now, as they are doing, and leave the painting applications for Worley or Maxon, and in my opinion Bodypaint works flawlessly with Lightwave on my system and is a joy to use and the results can be stunning especially if one knows how to paint.

Zach
03-11-2004, 03:14 PM
If they get a paint FX app in LW, I'd be so happy.

I've lost my sex drive a while back, the lack of LW's would fit me just fine!

theo
03-11-2004, 03:34 PM
Zach- have you tried Bodypaint out? If not, you really need to- it is really amazing.

PaQ
03-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Well bodypaint is a nice software, but imagine a LwPainter with Fprime for the interactive rendering :):) Be able to mix procedural textures with 2D painting ... that would be great. And what about weight maps painting, displacement modeling (a la Artisan) ... An integrated painting tool will definitively be more productive ! (and with some good UV tools, like a uv relaxing fonction, SubD friendly etc)

Wade
03-11-2004, 04:04 PM
So Maxxon can make a C4d and Bodypaint, but you would rather Newtek not do the same?:)

Jockomo
03-11-2004, 04:18 PM
A 3D paint program was tied for most requested item in the feature request polls, the other two items were faster rendering and improved hard/soft body dynamics.

We know we have the other two, I highly doubt NewTek would totally ignore the 3rd. I will speculate that when NewTek saw what worley was doing and how it might work with what they had in the works for LWPaint, they decided it was worth the flack they would get to delay L8.

theo
03-11-2004, 04:25 PM
Paq- Bodypaint displays great previews while you work. And Bodypiant has an outstanding procedurals system as well.

Wade- Nothing against Cinema but I don't rate their 3D modelling and animation side as robust as Lightwave's. But they have certainly done well with Bodypaint in my opinion, very well. I will give you this- IF the painting side was NOT bundled INTO the core of Lightwave but designed similar to the Modeller, Layout scheme in other words- Modeller, Paint, Layout I would be all for it. In this way the application would be given its proper development and not merely an afterthought buried in Lightwave's already deep interface along with the other 6,000 oddly-named plugins.

Like I said painting is a craft in and of itself and should be given the proper priority as such, which at this stage I just don't think would be possible by the Newtek people as they are having a hard enough time with getting LW8 out. Not cracking Newtek or anything here I am just being realistic about the possibilities of what you guys are requesting from them. If they can pull a hat out of the rabbit then fine but I am of the opinion that unless it can be done RIGHT then don't do it at all. I don't want them to bang out a halfway LW8 and neither do I want them to bang out a halfway done painting application.

Zach
03-11-2004, 04:57 PM
Nope, haven't tried BodyPaint.

I use photoshop for the most part. I wish there was a plugin hub between photoshop and LW. I hate saving out iff's all the time and reloading them into LW.

Blech!

theo
03-11-2004, 05:16 PM
Give Bodypaint a try and Photoshop will be an after-thought.

hrgiger
03-11-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Jockomo
A 3D paint program was tied for most requested item in the feature request polls, the other two items were faster rendering and improved hard/soft body dynamics.



Actually, as of earlier today, 3D Paint was number One.

Dr. Dardis
03-11-2004, 06:37 PM
It might be something else, like a way to
paint/correct Vmaps from within Layout.

just a thought....

The Doc.

Netvudu
03-11-2004, 07:01 PM
Sorry, but I would swear Zach and theo are talking of two totally diferent things!

I agree a Bodypaint-like app might be unnecessary as of today (also depending on how well it integrates into LW and if it costs $$) but a tool that makes the equivalent for Maya Paint FX would be great! That has nothing to do with a 3d Paint app!

Zach
03-11-2004, 07:38 PM
I would have to agree and say that PaintFX in LW is definately a welcome addition it's practically there with Sasquatch.

as far as 2d painting on models, Photoshop works for me pretty well, of course the more weapons you have to fight a war, the greater the possibility to a win. But then, I'm really opposed to buying and learning new software ALL THE TIME at this point. Too expensive on time and money! But this industry is all about change.

I just hope the Software I use will continue to get better, that's all. Like, even though AFX 6's paint tool slows down after painting too many strokes on the footage, I'm still super happy they put it in there for this round. It's pretty fabulous not having to buy DFX+'s paint module (by the way, still haven't learned DFX+ either. Bought it! Haven't learned it! Ugh!), or Combustion and learning that bastard too!

Anyway. I'm fine with (yay!) or without (oh well :( ) a paintFX type system in LW, and a BodyPaint system would be ok too (i think), but I don't even use maya's built in 2d paint program (which I am sure is a far cry from BodyPaint) and I don't even like to use Metacreations' or Corel's or whoever's Painter.

Now i'll have to download BodyPaint because I've got the curious bug in me! Darn you Theo!!! ;)

JDaniel
03-11-2004, 09:25 PM
It could be a vertex paint tool.

badllarma
03-11-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by theo
Zach- have you tried Bodypaint out? If not, you really need to- it is really amazing.

Personally I prefer Bodypaint with the gf rather than a LWO :D

Zach
03-12-2004, 12:00 AM
what's a gf?

meatycheesyboy
03-12-2004, 01:52 AM
I would guess girlfriend.

Zach
03-12-2004, 01:56 AM
oh right.....

:|

Just downloaded the body paint demo. 800 bux for the commercial license! Man, that's stiff! Even for the ole gf!

blabberlicious
03-12-2004, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Zach
Nope, haven't tried BodyPaint.

I use photoshop for the most part. I wish there was a plugin hub between photoshop and LW. I hate saving out iff's all the time and reloading them into LW.

Blech!


THERE IS!

It's called lightwave :-)


You don't need a plugin. I build textures exclusivey wih layered .psd files - no need to flatten then at this stage.

When you create the initial texture .psd files number them them 'texture_name_xx.psd.

Load them inti Image Editor and make a SEQUENCE (see attached image)

Then assign to your surfce.

Now you can happily edit away in photoshop - leaving files open, saving occasionally. (Yay!)

To test render - switch to LW LAYOUT

and here's the trick (drum-roll)

..step timeline forward and back one key-frame.

Any changes to .psd textures (or any format - I think) will instantly updated and show up in the model.

No re-saving, reimporting, reopening model, etc.

It's almost like a working hub!

When you happy with thhe results - flatten and optimise - although unless your .psd have mucho layers - you'll be ok - as LW seem to 'flatten' them on the fly prior to render.

I almost cr****d myself when I discoverd this!

Best wishes

BTW:
I will be making a short QT Movies showing Bodypaint in action - pros and cons.

(thanks for Beamtracer for the Original tip)

js33
03-12-2004, 03:28 AM
Good idea but your character seems to have turned green with envy. :D

Cheers,
JS

blabberlicious
03-12-2004, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by theo
Paq- Bodypaint displays great previews while you work. And Bodypiant has an outstanding procedurals system as well.


I agree about this.

What even better is that BP has Free Surface Baking Plug-in, so you can Bake all those lovely Maxxon procedurals from within BP onto you Model and then use in Layout.

Any It's way faster and more reliable than LW8's ropey baker.

Maxon have had the intelligence to avoid the never-ending interface debate by making theirs ultra flexible. The Maxon dev team even sent me a preset that made BP look and behave almost exactly like Modeller.

But Photoshop's brushes and Painting modes (Luminosity Overlay) trash BP's. And artists used to the subtlety and adaptability of PS brushes - BP is something of a shock.

For those of you who would like to switch between PS & BP while texturing to get the best of both, I'll post a example of what the BP/PS incompatibility issues are, later today.

After using BP for a while I've learnt a few things:

PS Brushes and layer modes still rule for the artist (especially latest version).

If NT/Worley dare going to integrate a paint system into LW - it'll be a daunting task, as the tools are what rule - as Maxon have discovered.

lasco
03-12-2004, 04:22 AM
What LW misses is not that much a painting tool like Body Paint,
than a Paint SHADER, like Maya Paint !
Both things are completely different !
The first one is just some kind of Photoshop part directly integrated
in the 3D app, it may save a bit of time if you're able to paint the models in 3D
but on the other hand you can do the thing using UVs with a better control
of your stokes etc. in Photoshop or even Painter.

On the other hand a fantastic thing for LW would be Painting shader
wich is more like a set of advanced procedural textures that gives you
a painting-look.
More and more creations nowadays take the direction of non-realistic / paint / cartoon renderings, Maya kicks all other 3D softs with its advanced
tools and especially coupled with plug's like TOONSHADE (www.toonshade.com)
as they allow to render the edges and outlines of objects with "traditionnal",
pencil, brush, charcoal lookings !!!

THAT is what we need.

theo
03-12-2004, 05:59 AM
Good points Blabberli- Unfortunately though Photoshop's brush system was absolutely inadequate for years until version 7. And in the years Adobe was trying to get it right Painter for a long time, in my opinion, was the brush king and I still hold Painter in high esteem to this day and for straight 2D illustration work Painter still has an edge on Photoshop. Photoshop is defintely the layer-mask master still but for a 3D paint solution I don't think there is anything better on the market than Maxon Bodypaint.

I have brought in complex mountain scapes and painted in complex texturing on the 3D surface you cannot do this with P7 or Painter- sure you paint on the 2D UV's but it just isn't the same. When you have the mesh in detail in the proper spacial space you can maximize the subtley and complexity of the map rather than fall victim to some of the guess work that is necessary with working with 2D UV's.

You know guys it really comes down to personal taste and an
idiosyncratic evaluation of need. Everybody has a spatial comfort zone and a predeliction in the visual development environment.

But Blabberli pretty much defines my point and that bears repeating "If NT/Worley dare going to integrate a paint system into LW - it'll be a daunting task, as the tools are what rule - as Maxon have discovered."

JDaniel
03-12-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by js33
It was in the very first F Prime video "FPrime_raytrace_demo.avi".
Under the buttons for G2 is a button called LWPainter.

Cheers,
JS
Yes it was grouped w/ G2. And we know what G2 is right.
FPrime is a WYSIWYG renderer. Search google and read about it. I think it's faster cause it renders only what you see rather than everything.
I found an avi showing painting on 3d objects from any viewport and it sticks to the model when rotated or translated.
It's like a sticky front projection paint that sticks just to polys facing that viewport. I think it was at siggraph.
I don't know if it's true but hey, we can pray can't we? WYSIWIG Painter!

EDIT- Worley came out w/sticky front projection awhile ago. It all adds up if you think about it.

Zach
03-12-2004, 01:12 PM
That photoshop thing is amazing!

JDaniel
03-12-2004, 01:42 PM
I bet it's a WYSIWYG painter. This will rock!

Nemoid
03-13-2004, 01:49 AM
I agree with Theo about Bodypaint. a paint app in Lw should really be another"module" with an entire toolset (working smoothly with modeler for sure) rather than a set of tools inside layout or smth like that.
a plug of this kind is better for paint fx and geometry like happens in Maya. in fact, since in Maya there are paint tools, Bodypaint works with Maya too, so that you can do textures for your model, while you paint geometry and fx using the Maya tools.

Nt should really focus on Lw developing.
the developing of another kinda tools can be done when all things in lw will work smoothly and some probs have been solved.

we know currently we have an app with :

1) an old structure, with separation between 2 apps wich work together through a 3rd app

2) sdk issues wich don't allow developers to build plugins wich work smoothly with Lw and exploit its real power.

3) the calls of plugins, with probs of plugins interact well each other.

4)Screamernet probs (which fortunately for Fprime will be addressed by Worley)

5) an old code wich is difficult to work up because its not commented.

etc.

ok. the new team is addressing some of these probs.
others, like integration, and core reworking, will have to be addressed in the future.
so i think Nt will have to do a huge work rather than developing new modules and painting toolsets for sure.

Worley could start to do an app similar to bodypaint, but when smth is in the market and works very well with Lw yet as well as other 3D apps why going against it?

another thing to consider is that it would be better to have a similar tool into a full integrated version of Lw than the current one.

my 2 cents.

paulhart
04-07-2004, 05:59 PM
I am amazed at the BobyPaint demo, despite solid years of using and teaching Photoshop. I agree that Painter is top of the heap for natural media brushes, and with version Painter8 (Corel has finally gotten it right) it is much more familiar to the Photoshop workflow, more intuitive, particularly if you have just discovered it. Still a bit of a learning curve and a couple of quirks,... oh well. I agree on the personal work flow issues, but the direct 3D approach really helps on the visualization issues. Does anybody remember the MetaCreations Painter 3D app. I took my closet apart the other day, thinking that I still had it around somewhere, and that I might be able to get it working on my Windows XPPro platform (LOL) but no luck, I must have moved it 'down- stream' some time ago. Seriously doubt it would have been worth the effort anyway. Did Corel buy it and kill it also??? Who knows. Currently I am keen on BodyPaint R2 as a fine answer but wonder if any other company has a less costly, just as good solution??? I have also checked in ZBrush v2 for this issue but see it as more of a sub-d modeling tool and since Lightwave hasn't gotten this aspect (ala Jin Choun discussion elsewhere) working yet, the painting texture aspect isn't as straight forward as BodyPaint appears, particularly since they allow Modeler like interface...!!

theo
04-07-2004, 08:34 PM
Hey Paul-

I am currently very much into the more advanced levels of BodyPaint and I can tell you that it is a great app. It is pricey no doubt about it and it does take some getting used to as it has a Cinema4D thing going on (hmmm- wonder why ;) ). The Baker plugin which can be downloaded off of the Maxon site is VERY important as well, in my humble opinion because this way you can leverage the Bhodinut procedurals.

I notice that BodyPaint took some hits on another thread which I believe were based in part on the fact that the user isn't a 2D painter. This is crucial for GETTING Bodypaint- you have to be reasonably adept at digital painting and if this isn't your forte' then pass up on BodyPaint.

I am very good at 3D but am even better at digital painting which can make or break even the best of models. BodyPaint is a niche app designed for hands-on 3D ARTISTS not for the hobbyist, not for guys who stick strictly with modelling and basic texturing and it isn't for animators who want a quick texture fix. This app, in my opinion now, is designed for the painter first who happens to be a great modeller or whatever else in 3D.

Oh- and I do agree with you about Painter- it definitely has a learning curve. I started out with metacreations painter 5 and haven't looked back. And even though Painter still has its place I am actually bringing BodyPaint on board in much bigger way on the 3D end.

paulhart
04-07-2004, 09:14 PM
Theo, Great to hear of your enthusiasm for BodyPaint. My visual strength has been primarily 2D illustration/drawing and color work, so the idea that this is more "artistic" than quick texture is a plus. I have always enjoyed plasticene modeling and Lightwave has been an open window to explore the 3d side of my creation interests, with the hope of being able to "paint" them. I want the control and the natural media look/feel to start more controlled painting on my already completed Lightwave modeling and hadn't been satisfied with the Photoshop/Painter roundtrip, adjust again/again, thinking that there has to be a more intuitive direct method for my artistic soul. Sounds like you feel that this works for you. I am still evaluating, weighing the dollars at the moment and trying the demo, but your enthusiasm is infectious.
I love Painter tops, but at least one person on a forum said they had some problems with Photoshop messing with the BodyPaint layers, or maybe it was the other way around, in any case the pluses sound excellent. Best to you

Emmanuel
05-28-2004, 11:08 AM
"If NT/Worley dare going to integrate a paint system into LW - it'll be a daunting task, as the tools are what rule - as Maxon have discovered."

Hm, that sentence to me makes no sense at all, sorry :)

tokyo drifter
05-28-2004, 11:28 PM
Makes perfect sense to me, I think he meant that making a paint system is one thing, but making a paint system with tools on par with photoshop or painter is very difficult.