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View Full Version : Could Worley make more money by volume?



Fardak
02-29-2004, 06:20 PM
BH

I would love to buy F_Prime. Unfortunately theprice is prohibitive. The same goes for Sasquatch BTW. I guess I'll scrape the money together given enough time, but I was thinking that there are probably alot of people out there in the same situation and I'm curious to know how many, approximately. I am posting a poll. Please don't lie in the hope that Steve will lower the prices, because you may as well hope he'll send you a free copy in the mail. Just curious. I imagine he could increase sales by at least 100% if not more by halving the prices - maybe.

I am not sure what exactly F_Prime will cost, though I think I saw a number some where. Regardless, I assume it will be similar in pricing to other Worley Products.

Don't get me wrong. I love Worley's work. Steve, if you read this - You Da MAN!! I just wish we could find a way to bring the cost down.

WilliamVaughan
02-29-2004, 06:30 PM
I think teh price for his tools are more then reasonable....The amount of maoney saved when using sasquatch more then pays for itself....

I can remember doing heads of hair with tons of 2 point polygons and applying jitter and motion blur to them....and that was just a for a still image....render times were a mess and the file siaze was crazy.

$499.00 for Sas will pay for itself on teh first project...no doubt.

Fardak
02-29-2004, 06:31 PM
True. Doesn't change the fact that there are alot of us out here who can't afford it that would love to have it. I'm just wondering if there are enough to make it worth it for Steve.

Fardak
02-29-2004, 06:34 PM
@ Proton
Off topic, did you read my post about how I got screwed over with the upgrade? In the community forum. Can you do anything to help me?
Do you have AIM? I am Kavhq. It would be easier, if you could help me, if we IMed

WilliamVaughan
02-29-2004, 07:52 PM
Screwed over?

Please email me and I will have access to the email tomorrow.

[email protected]

wapangy
02-29-2004, 09:29 PM
I really want all their plug ins but can't afford any of them. I suppose that really isn't surprising me being a jobless college student... Anyway, the pricing seems fair still.

jamesl
02-29-2004, 11:00 PM
I get beat up on this list for saying this, but if you can't afford a tool that is going to pay for itself many times over in the right hands, then wait a while. When it makes sense for you to buy it, you will. Don't scare off talented developers by implying that their charging too much. I think Steve has priced fprime very generously.

j

Hervé
02-29-2004, 11:09 PM
I think for more fun he should charge double.... he he, just kidding, hey be happy there is a first launch sale... !

julos
02-29-2004, 11:14 PM
The price is allright for such a tool, the question is more : why don't this kind of improvement come from Newtek with Lightwave 8 ?

Hervé
02-29-2004, 11:29 PM
Coz Steve is one of the best out there...
(wish he worked for NT...):D

mgrusin
03-01-2004, 12:42 AM
If you're a college student you might consider lobbying for an educational or watermarked version. (PS: Overdue thanks to Newtek for supporting students via educational pricing!)

-MG

js33
03-01-2004, 12:49 AM
I agree with jamesl that F Prime will pay for itself on the very first job you use it on considering the enormous amount of time it will save us professional users.

I think F Prime at $279 intro price is very reasonable and I think this should probably go up to the same price as SAS to $495 instead of the $399 Steve first mentioned.

I also agree that this sort of advancement should be in the core development of Lightwave but face it. There aren't too many Steve Worleys out there looking for jobs. :D

Cheers,
JS

hrgiger
03-01-2004, 02:20 AM
Personally I think he is undercharging for FPrime and overcharging for Sasquatch and G2 considering what the plug-ins do. It's a shame that we can't do decent hair in Lightwave without a $500 plug-in in 2004. One day it will be nice when people can stop posting bald models in the gallery or models with obviously clip mapped hair. In most cases, Saslite is as obvious as a toupee.

Dodgy
03-01-2004, 02:32 AM
I have to agree HR, Sas at $500 was a little too high for me, but about $300 I'd snap all of his plugins up. I'll definately be getting fprime when it comes out at that $279 price tag.

riki
03-01-2004, 03:18 AM
Not again, why do people keep asking this question?

cresshead
03-01-2004, 03:26 AM
a good move from worley would be to be able to buy say bundle packs like this

f prime + sasquatch for $699
f prime + sasquatch + G2 for $999
f prime + sasquatch + G2 + polk for $1099

or 3 x f prime for $749

that's my version on "volume sales"

also a tie in the a new seat of lightwave + f prime would be nice.

to be honest f prime looks like a winner for me..the money is already there and it's like getting a new 3 ghz pc in some repects for £150!

sasquatch is interesting but i do not need it for day to day tasks as yet...when i do..i'l be getting it for sure.

g2?...i'd like to have a demo of it to see if it's really going to benefit my day to day tasks.

steve g

jamesl
03-01-2004, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
a good move from worley would be to be able to buy say bundle packs like this

f prime + sasquatch for $699
f prime + sasquatch + G2 for $999
f prime + sasquatch + G2 + polk for $1099



What about Taft?

cresshead
03-01-2004, 04:02 AM
opps!..sorry!!!

just woke up [poor excuse eh?] [uk timezone]

as you can see "volume" to me means bundle packs not lowering the price of an individual plugin on it's own.

As we have seen by the poll i ran, $200-$300 is a very popular price for f prime so $279 should not be lowered as it would de value the product and all the cutting edge work worley labs have put into this amazing plugin.

if your a poor student...get a part time job in mac donalds for a week or 2 and you'll have f prime...or get a paper round gezz it's not that much in the first place is it?

some people want their whole life on a plate..."earn it" and you'll appreciate it more.

i'm sure if some "poor" people stopped drinking, smoking and buying playstation games for a month they could buy lightwave and f prime!

you have to decide what is important for you and focus on that.

edited...for typos

jamesl
03-01-2004, 04:07 AM
cress, if I understood a word you said, I'll bet I'd agree. :D

hrgiger
03-01-2004, 05:22 AM
That'd be a good deal for those who could afford it. A better idea would be to occassionally have promotions on the individual products so if someone really only wanted Sasquatch, they could get it on promotion for $299. Bundling it with G2 or FPrime at a reduced cost doesn't help the indidual hobbyist much.

3DBob
03-01-2004, 05:24 AM
As I have said before - steves price on this is perfect from a marketing point of view - Great intro price - great longterm price. I do however agree that multiple seats/additional seats should also have promotional pricing ( mainly that's because I'll want more than one copy) - But I'll be getting mine as soon as I have the order buttons to click on.

Every plug-in I have bought of worleys (some I have bought more than 1 copy of) has paid for itself. The others pay for themselves by providing a solution to a problem. FP is massively different in that it SAVES TIME - now you can use that time to do better/cheaper/more 3D or just have a more varied and fulfilling life. From my point of view TIME is the most important currency a person posesses - and worley is giving me more of it.

Therefore I say beg/borrow/steal/save or dare I say EARN the money for this plugin, because life is too precious.

3DBob

Kvaalen
03-01-2004, 05:34 AM
I think you guys are missing the point.

Fardak is suggesting that maybe by lowering the price more people would buy it and therefore Steve would still be getting the same amount of money, but more users would benifit from it.

Logical thinking, but I really think that Steve knows that if he lowers the price, what people will think about it will get lower too. Some people might not agree with that, it is discussable.

Qexit
03-01-2004, 05:53 AM
Why do so many people keep harping on about how much money Steve Worley makes or could make from his plugins ? From my observations, his principle interest is writing and developing the plugins, not earning vast amounts of money from them. If the user based increased significantly, e.g. doubled if he halved the price on his plugins, then he would have to devote much more of his time to providing support to the increased user base either directly or through the additional staff he would need to take on and manage. This would take him away from what he enjoys doing in life which would be counter productive.

While a lot of users might be happy at the prospect of being able to afford and use his excellent products, the long term result could be that these products cease to appear all together as the weight of running the company drains away Mr Worley's inspiration and motivation for developing new and inovative software.

I suspect that at present the old adage :

"If you're doing something you enjoy....and you're getting paid for it. Then you are in the right job !"

applies to Steve Worley. Bowing to user pressure over pricing could so easily change that situation. I think he knows what he is doing and puts a lot of thought into the prices he charges. If I were in his shoes, I might even consider increasing the prices to reduce the user base and give myself more time for other things :-)

cresshead
03-01-2004, 06:09 AM
not that is was a scientific or a defacto way of judgeing the market, but the poll i placed a week or so back showed that the best return for his money would be a $200 - $300 price point

his product is like all other products, market driven
if you think it's too expensive don't buy it!
if you think it's worth it..get it.

very simple really.

saying you can't afford it is just not on...get a job or have a yard sale..[toy story 2]

worley makes his living out of inventing plugins..if it became a charity then maybe you might want to reduce the price for the charitable cases.

if reducing the price, reduced his income he might move to make maya or max plugins where the price points are much higher..do you want that?

would that make you more happy knowing that maya users get this at a premium rate and lightwabe users are not catered for?

i'm sure if it were yourselves who invented a stunning plugin like this then you'd be after as much money for thehard work you had put into developing it.
:rolleyes:

hrgiger
03-01-2004, 07:37 AM
What company really thinks to themselves....."hmmm, I better not sell too many of these products of mine. I'd hate to have to support too many customers...."
:rolleyes:

Qexit
03-01-2004, 07:56 AM
>>What company really thinks to themselves.....

Morgan Cars here in the UK certainly adopt that approach. They deliberately keep production well below demand to maintain the perceived scarcity value of their product.

Any one man, or similarly small, operation not interested in growing into a huge corporation. In fact any small operation run by an individual or individuals more concerned with the product than the profit. They do have to pay attention to the money coming in...but coming up with ways of making more money and increasing the profit isn't the main driving force behind what they do. Larger companies lose site of this in their drive to meet the demands of their shareholders who only think about the return on their investment, i.e. money and profit

People care....companies profit :-) Not everyone is focused on how much money and profit they can make out of an enterprise. The better ones maintain a sensible balance between the two :-)

Wade
03-01-2004, 08:22 AM
I have yet to purchase a worly product, no need as of yet for what I do in Lightwave, but if 995.95 would buy me a super sized -includes all - WORLEYWONDER BUNDLE - I would slap down the plastic now. I might even do it for every seat of LightwaveI own which is <3.

So who else would join with me and ask Mr. Steve to bring the WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE to life!!!???


WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,
WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLEWORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,,WORLEY-WONDER-BUNDLE,WORLEY-WWORLEY-

Wade

Kvaalen
03-01-2004, 08:38 AM
Cresshead: I think you've missed the point! That's not what Fardak is trying to say.

Qexit: I don't find that reason satisfying though it might be true for some companies. I don't think it's because of the support he'd have to give. It's just not the style of a cool person like Steve.

Hervé
03-01-2004, 08:42 AM
do u no im ?:D

Qexit
03-01-2004, 08:50 AM
Hi Herve,

I've personally never met Steve Worley, though we have exchanged a few emails and I have been mentioned in despatches :-)

One day, I hope to get along to Siggraph so our paths may cross eventually.

prospector
03-01-2004, 08:51 AM
Don't think it is worth it now to really get those kind of prices,except to get while the gettins good.

Newtek HAS to fix thier renderer and viper by next ver, if they haven't done so yet. That is just a basic part of thier program.

If they keep letting everythin be done by others, they get no better than those other inferior programs, where EVERYTHING you need to do is by plug-in that costs extra.

Besides base price, how much extra does it cost now to get the quality LW does? Not counting some programmers hanging around to 'help' program do something.

Now everyone is talking about prices that are more than the program itself.

I wouldn't take away the right to charge whatever price,

But Newtek NEEDS to see what is happening and upgrade thier basic program.
All the new stuff is nice and all, but the basic foundation is beginning to show it's age.

Hervé
03-01-2004, 09:05 AM
Does a prog like XSI need so many plugins too...? dunno, but as a fact

for hair.... 495
nice liquids other than blobs or countless hours inLW 700
New FPrime 279
Soft shdows high quality 200
Nice right reflections 200
SSS 30
New shader sys G2 495
nice dof 295


I could go on and on with that list....

I personnaly have Sas full, Hypersmooth, Shadow designer, X_dof, SSS OGO, HD Instance, so LW is not so cheap these days if you need to compete with next door XSI folks...

So I think everyone could list his plugins here...

prospector
03-01-2004, 03:31 PM
Exactly my point !
Say Newtek bought the F_Prime outright OR hired someone to build a system as fast.

And they either paid Worley $100,000 outright or paid another programmer for a year to do same the same $100,000 (probably more than they pay now, but just for examples).

If Newtek sold 10,000 copies of LW (including the VT version)
That brings the price of that plugin or programmers job to 10 bucks to break even.

Looking at the list you made, to get all those plugins into LW or new ones written for LW would Add no more than 200 (+some for profit) to the total LW price at 10,000 copies sold.
Which I am pretty sure they surpass worldwide.

And look at the LW program you'd have when completed...

Way past the other so called really high end programs, and STILL much less.

Qexit
03-01-2004, 03:46 PM
Hm...sounds like you are describing pretty much what Newtek have been doing over the last 12 months or so already :-)

I don't know if you noticed but Newtek recently did recruit a whole new bunch of programmers to replace those who went elsewhere. They also have bought in a bunch of third party plugins which they are including in LW8 with a collection of additional bells and whistles. All of this is appearing in LW8 which is being shipped at the same price and/or upgrade cost as LW7.X and they've thrown in several bonuses such as DFX+ or DVD tutorial disk sets as part of the deal. Some of the LW8 features are playing catch up to other apps, some of them are new. Maybe by the time we get to LW8.5 some of your shopping list items will have been included too :-)) They don't have bottomless coffers, so everything has to be done in affordable stages. The release of LW8 will hopefully put some more dollars in their bank account and let them develop or incorporate more new features.

Kuzey
03-01-2004, 03:52 PM
A lite version shipped with Lw8 would do me just fine.


Kuzey

Fardak
03-01-2004, 04:15 PM
Kvaalen got it right
Qexit definitely has a point but i don't think it's that much of an issue.

I am not dissing steve. He's great at what he does, and he deserves to be a millionnaire. If I could give him a large cash award for his work I would.

I am just wondering if there isn't a way to bring down the costs without making him lose money.
That having been said, I thought F_Prime was gonna be 500 so his price now is pretty much what I was wishing he'd charge. Ironically, even if I had not gotten screwed with the upgrade (See my post "Sympathy, anyone...") having just forked over for the upgrade , by the time I recover the intro price will be history. I don't remember what the price will be after but even if this post is irrelevent for F_Prime, I think it's still valid for Sas etc.

Fardak
03-01-2004, 04:39 PM
Oh, BTW Kvaalen, I doubtg anyone would be less impressed by F_Prime OR Sas or anything Worley just because it wasn't expensive. Those plugins ROCK and don't need the false sense of worth imparted by a large price tag. Obviously, Steve should make sure it's worth it for him...

Kvaalen
03-02-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Fardak
Oh, BTW Kvaalen, I doubtg anyone would be less impressed by F_Prime OR Sas or anything Worley just because it wasn't expensive.

Maybe, as I said this can be discussed. :)

Have you seen the plugin for C4D that is similar to FPrime? I think the majority of people who see it don't think it's as good as FPrime even before they know all about FPrime or abouth the C4D one. Why? It only costs 60 something dollars. It's a matter of opinion and I don't think it is very easy to explain, but lets say it this way:

It's a subconcious effect. It's known that a higher price subconsciously makes people think lt's better. Even with everyday products (BTW, that is why the cheapest wine in a store is usually the second cheapest because people don't want to buy the cheapest so they raise the cheapest price a bit :) ).

hrgiger
03-02-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
Maybe, as I said this can be discussed. :)

Have you seen the plugin for C4D that is similar to FPrime? I think the majority of people who see it don't think it's as good as FPrime even before they know all about FPrime or abouth the C4D one. Why? It only costs 60 something dollars. It's a matter of opinion and I don't think it is very easy to explain, but lets say it this way:

It's a subconcious effect. It's known that a higher price subconsciously makes people think lt's better. Even with everyday products (BTW, that is why the cheapest wine in a store is usually the second cheapest because people don't want to buy the cheapest so they raise the cheapest price a bit :) ).

That or people automatically give the Lightwave plug-in more value because, well, it's a lightwave plug-in. The greatest XSI plug-in in the world is still worthless to me even if it cost $.50 as I don't use XSI.

riki
03-02-2004, 03:01 PM
I think Worely products are way over priced.

Aegis
03-02-2004, 03:24 PM
One day, I hope to get along to Siggraph so our paths may cross eventually.

Siggraph eh? Yup - that'd be fun - hope to get there myself sometime soon :)

Nice to see you hangin' out on the boards some more Kevin - Good to have you back!


I think Worely products are way over priced.

I used to think that too until I got to use the full version of Sasquatch on a studio job - trust me, they're not...

hrgiger
03-02-2004, 03:24 PM
I would agree that Sas and definately G2 are overpriced but I think FPrime will be worth the money he's charging for it, even after the introductory offer.

Kvaalen
03-03-2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by hrgiger
That or people automatically give the Lightwave plug-in more value because, well, it's a lightwave plug-in. The greatest XSI plug-in in the world is still worthless to me even if it cost $.50 as I don't use XSI.

I meant in general. Lets say both of those plugins worked on both apps. :)