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Vincent Brumbac
02-26-2004, 05:00 PM
I would like to present some possible future applications of Worley's truly groundbreaking software.
First and foremost this is a rendering engine. So programs like Max, Maya, C4D and Softimage could possibly have this programmed for them. Which in turn would increase profits for Mr. Worley, which he would then be able to R&D even more cool plugins.
Second. Can anyone imagine this technology on a chip inside your computer? A gaming machine? The applications for this are mind boggling.
Any other thoughts?


Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

jat1
02-27-2004, 01:51 AM
all i know is that i want a copy bad...

WizCraker
02-27-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by jat1
all i know is that i want a copy bad...

Don't you mean you want to buy it? As Copy sounds....

ren_at_home
02-27-2004, 12:34 PM
well if he said he wanted a 'seat' bad would we think he was tired from standing up all day long?

I snapped out at someone the other day on a similar note - not everyone who uses the word 'copy' means illegal copy...

replenishing my digital karma

jat1
02-27-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by WizCraker
Don't you mean you want to buy it? As Copy sounds....

LOL, never thought about it like that, well yes, I mean buy, especailly at the moment since im rendering a scene that crashes on me cause i got over 40 lights, too many windows and for some reason the array calculations screw up and crash lightwave at a certain frame, never had this problem before.

Vincent Brumbac
02-27-2004, 05:26 PM
That was quick.


Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

New2Lw
03-02-2004, 05:00 AM
F_prime is not a rendering engine. It's a plug-in, a preview renderer. If it were a rendering engine it would be able to load in a lightwave scene separatly(as a stand alone) from the two lightwave apps and render it itself. Just like any normal rendering engine.

It needs Lightwave to run, it uses Lighwaves own rendering engine. Although, it does use Lightwaves rendering engine in a very different way than VIPER or Ligthtwave itself uses the engine. It is limited to what Lightwave can do. Same thing with G2, a preview renderer.

If you think otherwise show me where on this page it says render engine... These two plugins work hand in hand with Lightwave engine to create some awsome looking images fast.

http://www.worley.com/G2/g2_main.html#startit

Here's a quick quote for G2.
"The heart of G2 is the realtime, render quality, and totally customizable preview system it adds to LightWave."
So, preview system, not render engine ;) Just incase some one wants to argue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

K, now that that's out of the way. What's the difference between G2 and F_prime? Besides maybe SSS and some panels specifically for G2.

Eric

Vincent Brumbac
03-02-2004, 08:06 PM
I understand that this is a plugin for LightWave. It is also possible that this is some fantastical-geewhiz-super cool-wow-new technology and technology can be adapted for different purposes. What's stopping Mr. Worley from writing his own fantastical-geewhiz-super cool-wow-new rendering engine with some Fprime tech thrown in for good measure, market it has a new 3d api, people love it, developers license it and create hardware for it. POOF! Bye bye OpenGL and DirectX. Anyways, that is how I see it. Forgive me for trying to see possibilties.

No one, expect for the developers, knows exactly how and why Fprime works. Quote from Worley site "Since there's nothing like this tool in LightWave 8, and we're confident the FPrime renderer is something every LightWave user (both 7 and 8) will demand, our pricing is designed to make the decision easy." Notice FPrime renderer. And another "The FPrime Renderer does not use any pre-render pass or baking, so you can use the interactive render even when loading a new object or starting a scene from scratch" Again refered to as Fprime Renderer.

Cheers.

Vincent D. Brumback

robk
03-03-2004, 08:35 PM
I would still like to know if it will render higher than screen res images and if it will do global illumination (Radiosity) Since Worley says he is releasing FPrime next week I guess i will find out then. Screen res speed ups will not help my 8000x6000 Architectural renders although it wiil help with low res previews.

MorituriMax
03-04-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by New2Lw
F_prime is not a rendering engine. It's a plug-in, a preview renderer. If it were a rendering engine it would be able to load in a lightwave scene separatly(as a stand alone) from the two lightwave apps and render it itself. Just like any normal rendering engine.

It needs Lightwave to run, it uses Lighwaves own rendering engine. Although, it does use Lightwaves rendering engine in a very different way than VIPER or Ligthtwave itself uses the engine. It is limited to what Lightwave can do. Same thing with G2, a preview renderer.

If you think otherwise show me where on this page it says render engine... These two plugins work hand in hand with Lightwave engine to create some awsome looking images fast.

negative ghost buster... it is an engine...
-- -- -- from worley.com -- -- --
One of the most common questions we get is about image quality. Does FPrime use object approximations, lower quality shading, or precision shortcuts to render so quickly?

The happy answer is no. FPrime's engine traces the same geometry, follows the same reflection and transparency ray recursion, and computes and stores the same floating point point color precision as LightWave does.
-- -- -- end worley quote -- -- --

It has its own engine...
Next! 8 )

MorituriMax
03-04-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by New2Lw

Just incase some one wants to argue.

Why would anyone want to argue? You're just in the same boat as everyone else.. you are thinking your opinion is equivalent to fact. It isn't anymore than anyone elses opinion.. When Worly releases it we'll all know.. as it stands you don't know anymore than anyone else who isn't worley.

MorituriMax
03-04-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by robk
I would still like to know if it will render higher than screen res images and if it will do global illumination (Radiosity) Since Worley says he is releasing FPrime next week I guess i will find out then. Screen res speed ups will not help my 8000x6000 Architectural renders although it wiil help with low res previews.

Four things will happen next week.

1) Worly will release FPrime.
2) Newtek will release LW 8.
3) Jesus will return to earth, where he will promptly be shot down in the street by shotgun wielding rednecks who will say, "Pshaw, that there preacherman said the devil would come back first and like, trick us and stuff."
4) The devil will rejoice and pat himself on the back for having read the same chapters in that there bible.

themaxx
03-04-2004, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by MorituriMax
Four things will happen next week.

1) Worly will release FPrime.
2) Newtek will release LW 8.
3) Jesus will return to earth, where he will promptly be shot down in the street by shotgun wielding rednecks who will say, "Pshaw, that there preacherman said the devil would come back first and like, trick us and stuff."
4) The devil will rejoice and pat himself on the back for having read the same chapters in that there bible.


HAhAHaHahAhahAhahaHAHahaHAHAhaHAH!!

JDaniel
03-04-2004, 11:33 AM
That's funny! :D :D :D

When you render out an animation, FPrime won't render all the frames, LW will. I think we need to know it's limitations. I'm sure there are some.
In a few years newbies will say, "You had to wait for the render!?" :p
Go Worley!

ACLOBO
03-04-2004, 11:50 AM
I rememember when I first started using Lightave (version 3.5 - 5.0 on the Amiga). I was amazed how how much faster it was that Imagine. After many upgrades I was amazed at how fast it could render stuff when I got a fast pc and the intel version. I remember rendering out a logo animation for a private game project that took 3 days (day and night on Amiga)!!!! The same animation was completed in few minutes on my 2 ghz Dell.


Darn Noobies are spoiled... I think they should have a noobie version where you have to wait. After a couple of years of use, you get an email with an unlock code to let you render "near real-time." That way they can really appreciate the technology. :D


-Adrian

Vincent Brumbac
03-04-2004, 05:34 PM
"Darn Noobies are spoiled"

Started out with LightWave3.5 on my A4000. Have I done anything useful with it? Nope.


So any thoughts on my thread? Anyone? I was hoping for some discussion here.

Cheers,


Vincent D. Brumback

Rich
03-04-2004, 07:01 PM
I remember my first experience with Lightwave rendering. We had a toaster at school. It would render a frame, record it to the VCR and pause and repeat for each frame till the animation was complete. Talk about frustrating.

ACLOBO
03-04-2004, 07:13 PM
Wow, you had a A4000. I had a lowly 1200.... But I had it accelerated with a sizzling 50 mhz 68030 and an extra 8 megs of ram!!! Whooo! I was kinda styling in those days.

In some ways, I still like the older versions of lightwave better - interface wise. Less buttons (less features) to keep track of and who could deny the coolness of the toaster-like wipe transitions between modeler and layout?? I still have all my previous versions of lightwave and even have my 1200! However, it needs a new harddrive and well, it has been so long - that I have a hard time navigating around Workbench anymore. I even bought UAE (amiga emulator) for nostalgia sake and I can't remember how to do all that much with Ados.... lol Good times though......

-Adrian

ps - I really wanted a a3000 instead of an A4000... The A1200 and A4000(s) were hacks. They were still fun though.

DigiLusionist
03-04-2004, 09:02 PM
I read in some tech magazines that companies are dabbling with processors that utilize light (photons) instead of electrons. I forgot what this is called (photonics, I think), but it would mean the ones and zeroes are in the form of transmitted light sequences.

Therefore, data would process approximately ten to twenty times faster than conventional processors do.

Once such processors are released, and the FPrime technology is further developed and optimized to utilize it, real-time rendering wouldn't be far behind...

robk
03-05-2004, 11:31 PM
Well Worley has released more info on fprime , radiosity (yes), high resolution images (yes), animation (yes) but sadly not all features cannot be displayed. see a clip of text from his page below:
LightWave Integration and Inevitable Limitations.


(start quote)
LightWave's "SDK" provides information to third party plugins. Unfortunately its design does not directly support replacement rendering systems. This limits the capabilities of tools like FPrime since LightWave does not share all of its scene information. The most noticeable limits are no shader or image plugin support, nor LightWave volumetrics, so these effects simply do not appear in FPrime. These limits currently include our own G2 and Sasquatch plugins. Other limits are LightWave glow and lens flares.

G2 support would be helped by an improved SDK, but we may later "manually" connect G2 to FPrime. G2's design focus is to extend and enhance shading and lighting of scenes. FPrime's rendering focus will make it a terrific complement, creating a killer combination.

Newtek has been thrilled by FPrime as it has developed. Their developers are currently busy finishing LightWave 8 for its release. After LW 8 ships, they intend to work with us to extend the LightWave SDK to help FPrime and other third party tools. Currently there is no FPrime feature or quality difference between LightWave 7 and 8. (end quote)





Hopefully after vesion 8 is out Newtek open up the sdk so breakthrough products like fprime can fully integrate with Lightwave.
Go to Steve Worley's site and be amazed with his new product
http://www.worley.com/


Robk

New2Lw
03-06-2004, 12:41 AM
Digilusionist, you want to know what real time infinite bounce radiosity/GI with millions of polys real time animation?

http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html

to bad they won't have these for another 20 years...Lightwave 16/ F_prime 7 anyone?

Eric

New2Lw
03-06-2004, 12:49 AM
I could have been wrong on what I said on page one. I still think that it works hand in hand with the lightwave renderer.

"FPrime is not a previewer. It is a renderer, one that is fast enough to display your rendered image interactively." quote from worley

Eric

MorituriMax
03-06-2004, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by New2Lw
Digilusionist, you want to know what real time infinite bounce radiosity/GI with millions of polys real time animation?

http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html

to bad they won't have these for another 20 years...Lightwave 16/ F_prime 7 anyone?

Eric

Nooooo! FPrime is God!!! It will still be version 1! Everyone ELSE has to conform to it!

Heh

MorituriMax
03-06-2004, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by New2Lw
I could have been wrong on what I said on page one. I still think that it works hand in hand with the lightwave renderer.

"FPrime is not a previewer. It is a renderer, one that is fast enough to display your rendered image interactively."

Eric

No, you were just wrong... or rather you didn't know all the information.. you made an edumacated guesstimate based on what you thought was possible and had a 50/50 chance of being right. Just not this time.. heh

DoF
03-06-2004, 09:45 AM
Any core changes to the LW render engine we have in 7.5c might have serious ramifications: Has anyone ever asked just exactly *why* the LW renderer is in the top echelon of high-end renderers?
Did the coders set out to produce a *beautiful* renderer, in which case they certainly succeeded; or was it a freak of programming nature?
If it was the latter, then if I were NT, I would avoid tweaking this most elegant final stage in the lw pipeline.
Any "improvements" to the renderer in 8 will have a tough act to follow: I would want something approaching PRMan in speed and LOD.
Oh, and I would also want a 'Render as 7.5' option :D
As far as previews goes Viper needs to be aware of many more parameters, but I think F9 rocks!

MorituriMax
03-06-2004, 10:50 AM
Hmm, I almost never use Viper.. it is too touchy and frankly not really much faster than just outright rendering something.. course I'm not an expert, just my novices 2cents.. after seeing FPrime I'm more than ready to actually start rigging things and moving them around since you get such quick realtime feedback..

JDaniel
03-06-2004, 01:20 PM
Wow, it does render final animations. :eek:

MorituriMax
03-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Yeah not only that but it renders them better the longer you let it grind away.. the whole thing equally!

Wow... now I can get into animation!

Seeya

New2Lw
03-09-2004, 10:54 AM
K, they opened at 9 pacific, it's 11:45 central standard...any min now they are going to have it posted on their site. With hopefully a ton more info.

I was reading in the Worley yahoo user groups that a few people that do long animations are worried that because it does all the frames at the same time that it's going to fill up their hard drive really fast with images before they are turned into an animation.

Just what I heard.

Eric

ACLOBO
03-09-2004, 12:41 PM
If F-prime does do all the frames at once and spills them to the harddrive, then you simplely just spilt up your scene into two smaller ones. That way you can render out and comp or post what you need, then you can do the same with the rest of the scene.

I am kinda down today about F-prime. I was hoping that the intro price would have lasted at least a couple of weeks and not just one. My current budget would allow me to order it next week at the intro price, but the offer will be over then.... :(

Guess I will just have to get in in a month or two... :(


Oh well. Being unemployed at this particular moment REALLY sucks.. :)

-Adrian

JDaniel
03-09-2004, 01:12 PM
Maybe they are virtual frames at first.

nawDsign
03-09-2004, 01:13 PM
MorituriMax: Yeah not only that but it renders them better the longer you let it grind away.. the whole thing equally!

Wow... now I can get into animation!

Seeya

hmm.. So if I have to wait for a better render in fprime.. would it take the same amount of time if I were to render from LW alone?:confused:

JDaniel
03-09-2004, 01:23 PM
No, it's alot faster.

JDaniel
03-10-2004, 10:49 PM
The same w/ low poly count, but faster as the scene complexity increases. That's what he says.

colkai
03-11-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by nawDsign
hmm.. So if I have to wait for a better render in fprime.. would it take the same amount of time if I were to render from LW alone?:confused:

I can honestly say - having seen it in action, no way. It gets real good, real quick. I had a scene I asked to be tested with it, took forever to render in LW due to radiosity. In FPrime, it was that much faster, I actually had trouble accepting it.

Another note, the LW camera was 300 X 400, but I could size up the FPrime window to damn near full screen with hardly a noticeable drop in speed. How the heck he does that I do not know, but 320 X 200 or 800 X 600 seems to make damn near no difference to FPrime - it was at that point my head exploded and my CC started to fight its way out of my wallet ;)

Really, if you do any amount of test rendering, it's a no-brainer to get this thing! :D

MorituriMax
03-11-2004, 10:13 AM
Your head exploded? Ha! I know how he does it.. he has as part of the software download a virtual nuclear power plant.. the radiation leakage must have been responsible for your head detonation!

8 )

JDaniel
03-11-2004, 10:25 AM
No, no, an Alien crashed in his backyard and he has back-engineered some tech. :eek:

(Credit card starting to talk to me.)