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3DBob
02-25-2004, 06:45 PM
Well its not lightwave GI but a hemisphere of point lights and an AREA LIGHT makes this the most impressive light setup we have seen this little beauty chuck out to date!

Who needs GI when you can get results this good this quickly with FP?

3DBob

3DBob
02-25-2004, 07:01 PM
I'd like to see a demo of fp setting up lights for an internal visualisation - if we can make pseudo photometrically accurate light elements by using luxigons and the feedback loop you get from fp - then GI might just be soething you do when you've got lots of CPUs.

More importantly - his site now says that there is NO RESTRICTION ON LIGHT TYPE!

Yippee - just give me an orderform Steve - I'm chomping at the bit here!

jjburton
02-25-2004, 07:16 PM
I saw it and I too have ants in my pants pushing out my credit card:D

mattclary
02-25-2004, 07:19 PM
OK, he either made a deal with the devil or he broke into Area 51 and stole some alien technology. Who gives a crap about GI, you don't need it with that many freaking lights!

ddho1981
02-25-2004, 07:23 PM
agreed! that was awesome! say, what's the deal with all these pending releases on kicka** products??? it's like a conspiracy or something.

Muad'dib
02-25-2004, 07:25 PM
:D :D Come on someone give this man a clap now, followed closely by your CC details ;) Onya Steve - I think NT are cleverly using you as a deflection shield on the "Wait for Eight" campaign.

ikaruz
02-25-2004, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by mattclary
OK, he either made a deal with the devil or he broke into Area 51 and stole some alien technology. Who gives a crap about GI, you don't need it with that many freaking lights!
I think it was the deal with the devil....:D. Holy crap that was impressive. I don't think I've ever been so excited in waiting to buy a piece of software :). It gets better and better with each video.

3DBob
02-25-2004, 07:29 PM
Toooo right - it's one of those rare developments in 3D that have you giggling a little psycotically - and yor glad there's no one about. The last time I did this was on the build up to G2 - come to think of it - the time before was sasquatch!

Actually the Non Photorealistic Rendering research that came out of Siggraph last year had me in this state - It would be great if Worley could squeeze that work into G3.

In the mean time - let us give you money worley, just because you're a time warp genious.

Actually - I recon its a new type of renderfarm - when you load a scene - the data is simultaneously passed into the future where worley has set up a whole rack of quantum computers - when the stuff is rendered it is passed back to the plugins viewport just a little afterwards - just to make it plausable.

OK - I think I need to sleep now.

It Would be sooo great if it did sas and voxels - sas I see as less of anissue for him - he controlls the registeres of both sas and fp - so they might be able to talk to each other - but voxels - well I think that might stumble at the LW SDK ( of course I know nothing)

3DBob

mattclary
02-25-2004, 07:33 PM
Anyone look at the products list? It now lists F Prime, but for price it has "?????". Wonder if he's rethinking that?

cresshead
02-25-2004, 07:47 PM
just looked at the worley site and there's no new video on there...could it be that ntl are using a proxy server for my surfing and it's yet to be updated...GRRRRR

can someone post a link for the video your all squeeling about pleeeeeese!

steve g

3DBob
02-25-2004, 07:49 PM
Here you go

http://www.worley.com/cool/FPrime_massive_lighting.avi

3DBob

cresshead
02-25-2004, 07:51 PM
thank you!:D

steve g

js33
02-25-2004, 07:52 PM
Worley has changed 3D forever. At least for Lightwave anyway. :D

Now if we can only get are hot little hands on it.

Come on Steve you're killin' us here.

Cheers,
JS

Skritter
02-25-2004, 07:52 PM
Well with this sort of set up FPrime will need to do full scene rendering, cause wont the Lightwave renderer just freek out with this many lights

3DBob
02-25-2004, 07:54 PM
This is gonna be sucha killer tool - I've sometimes found area/linea lights to be so hit and miss - the rendertimes just made the feedback loop intolerable sometimes - but with fp you seem to be able to get what you want so quick.

BTW - how do I pay worley ???? - I dont know what the $/? exchange rate is ;-)

3DBob

Steve McRae
02-25-2004, 07:56 PM
its like he videotaped a bunch of little models while holding a flash light - it seems that fast . . .

:)

Vincent Brumbac
02-25-2004, 08:16 PM
A thought.

This is software doing these amazing things. Imagine this technology on a chip inside your computer.

Don't cry.




Cheers

Vincent D. Brumback

cresshead
02-25-2004, 08:28 PM
re $ to £

if the $279 holds true then it's about £149

cresshead
02-25-2004, 08:39 PM
just been watching the latest video...144 lights from the luxdome plus the main point light/area light....err...wow...

i bet we see radiosity next demo...

Ade
02-25-2004, 09:03 PM
Unless they showed the luxidome cause it cant do radiosity?

cresshead
02-25-2004, 09:09 PM
i bet you a pound it will! [radiosity, caustics, hypervoxels,volume lights,lensfares,dof, motion blur]

js33
02-25-2004, 09:41 PM
Oh no that's 7 more videos and days to wait. :confused:

I'm already sold. :p

Let's just see a list of what it can do so he can release it sooner. :D

Cheers,
JS

novadesigns
02-25-2004, 09:44 PM
If it truly is a rendering engine then its logical that it would support everything that LW supports. So far it does, lets hope Steve keeps knocking out socks off.

Either way, he's got my money. :)

Hervé
02-26-2004, 12:31 AM
There is going to be two sorts of LW users after this baby is out for sale.....

the happy users with FPrime and the poor users without FPrime...

BTW, M. Worley is not M. Worley, as you noticed it....

Hello M. Steve (Worley) Faust.... hope you signed the contract with your blood...

Question.... Is M. Worley some sort of genius "ala Einstein", who makes all others look like Goofy Nulls..... I mean , his rendering app of thingy or stuff makes Pixar coders looking like.... just me... ha ha ha....:D

I am lost, Please Newtek, explain a bit why your rendering engine look like a handicaped snail compare to his rendering engine or call it whatever U want..... huh ? ha yes... FPrime.... I think "F_God", or "F_Royal" would have made more justice to it...

Good thing For NT, I preview more sales just because of F_Prime...

Now where are the previz_Market _People to see what they think about it....!?

Actually , you could have the client himself playing with the mouse, travelling where he wants... UN-believable...!!!!!

Later

dashwilson
02-26-2004, 12:42 AM
F-prime seems a seperate rendering program from layout's rendering engine, so, May be it can also rendering on Modeller I guess, and I'm really hope it can be!!!!

CB_3D
02-26-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Hervé

Now where are the previz_Market _People to see what they think about it....!?


I am one of them, and i am exploding with joy with every new demo:D :D :D

Hervé
02-26-2004, 01:42 AM
aaahhh, cool... I think this is absolutly terrific, no need radiosity anymore.... Yeah....!!!!!:cool:

colkai
02-26-2004, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
re $ to £

if the $279 holds true then it's about £149

Which means my credit card will be taking yet another hammering, I am *so* broke - but how can you not buy this?

Even for a hobbyist like myself, who has to justify every purchase and has very little cash to blow, just the amount of time it will save you developing a scene means you'd have to be seriously broke not to buy it. Damn the man - that is so awesome it is almost illegal! :p

lessee ... 149 == 10 bottles of whisky - yeah - think I can justify that ;)

cresshead
02-26-2004, 04:39 AM
colkai put some of your old models on turbosquid for sale..that's how i'm buying fprime...the current balance turbosquid owes me is the same as fprime..so it's sorta free!

i set my next cheque to be sent from turbosquid at $250 and it's currently $230!

http://www.cresshead.com/cresshead/3d.htm

of course you also use the cash to buy whiskey!

colkai
02-26-2004, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by cresshead
colkai put some of your old models on turbosquid for sale..that's how i'm buying fprime..

To be honest Steve, I'm not sure if they are of good enough quality to sell. I've never been sure about that sort of thing, I may browse around this weekend to see where 'the bar' is at.

mattclary
02-26-2004, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
Anyone look at the products list? It now lists F Prime, but for price it has "?????". Wonder if he's rethinking that?

Funny! It's gone now! I wonder what the f*** is up!? Man, I can't freaking WAIT to get my hands on this thing!

CB_3D
02-26-2004, 07:51 AM
Coinciding with the freeby announcement from Newtek...hmm

Wishful thinking, i know:rolleyes:

CB_3D
02-26-2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by dashwilson
F-prime seems a seperate rendering program from layout's rendering engine, so, May be it can also rendering on Modeller I guess, and I'm really hope it can be!!!!

Fprime is a masterclass plugin, so that won´t happen.

Hervé
02-26-2004, 08:37 AM
..... hmmm... maybe a re-new new LW8/F_Prime deal... he he

I know, but to think about...... :D

Hervé
02-26-2004, 09:57 AM
I am waiting for a demo apparently named "Room3", .... he he...

Alan Daniels
02-26-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
FPrime.... I think "F_God", or "F_Royal" would have made more justice to it...

Actually, he should have named it "F_Me", because that's exactly what I said to myself when I saw the first demo. :D

js33
02-26-2004, 11:32 AM
Hehehehe. Not to mention all the people that had to change their underware after seeing it. :D

Cheers,
JS

hrgiger
02-26-2004, 02:08 PM
I especially love the part where he says there are more features yet to show..... Geez, what else could there be?

I would have called it F me too.:)

js33
02-26-2004, 02:10 PM
Maybe F Prime can read our minds and do our work for us and at blinding speed. :D

Cheers,
JS

jamesl
02-26-2004, 02:50 PM
I really hope you can batch render frames with this puppy, otherwise the quick light-globe effect isn't going to be too useful if in the end you have to send it through LW's renderer. Also, I'd like to batch multiple cameras and do a multi-cam edit of the resulting footage... sah-weet!

j

js33
02-26-2004, 03:49 PM
Yes I hope it offers that as well. If not it would seem a simple Lscript would take care of it.

Cheers,
JS

TSpyrison
02-26-2004, 05:15 PM
I hope we can order (pre-order even) F Prime soon..

Boss has agreed to get it for me, but I need to order it before corporate cuts budgets again...

a race against time!

cresshead
02-26-2004, 06:28 PM
the price has not changed on the latest page BTW...

..got my money ready!

cresshead
02-26-2004, 06:45 PM
as a lightwave AND and 3dsMAX user i posted a thread in the discreet forum about fprime....boy are some max users in denial!

i got one reply saying that this is nothing new and that fprime was cheating the ball scene by using cgs spheres and not polygons and that the other scenes were simply a cached image and just zoomed in to make it bigger no camera moves..he said this is old technology and nothing special at all... repled an ripped his head off...then thought better of it and deleted the reply...well if HE wants to think that it's noting special...cool!....i'll get his work from his clients by getting better renders faster with f prime then!

stee g

Netvudu
02-26-2004, 06:50 PM
as much as I hate "software guerrilla"...

...got several Maya students in awe at the CG school where I teach LW. They simply couldn´t believe such an interactive speed...heh,heh :D

...of course if they got into particles or advanced character setup they could kick my @$$ for a while. The judge says it´s a draw! :p

ikaruz
02-26-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
as a lightwave AND and 3dsMAX user i posted a thread in the discreet forum about fprime....boy are some max users in denial!

i got one reply saying that this is nothing new and that fprime was cheating the ball scene by using cgs spheres and not polygons and that the other scenes were simply a cached image and just zoomed in to make it bigger no camera moves..he said this is old technology and nothing special at all... repled an ripped his head off...then thought better of it and deleted the reply...well if HE wants to think that it's noting special...cool!....i'll get his work from his clients by getting better renders faster with f prime then!

stee g

I haven't really used any of the other 3D software, except for Max very briefly. So maybe I've been in the dark about other 3D software. Is it really old technology, that other applications had already? Reason been that I've noticed some Maya and Softimage user with similar comments as well, that's why I had previously asked what Maya's IPR and Softimage limited rendering region tools were and if they were similar to Fprime or Viper? Although I've never seen them in action I was just curious as to the comments I had read from other people. I'm curious and confused cause some comments say it's old technology already in software X, and some say that the next version of software X would have better previewing tools than Fprime? So is it really old technology already implemented in software X? or is it old technology been implemented right and fast for the first time?

Either way I think that Worley has a terrific product without a doubt and just like many Lightwave user I'll be waiting in line to purchase it. It seem like a nobrainer to me :D

'The above was not meant to cause any software wars'

Steve McRae
02-26-2004, 08:14 PM
Maya's IPR is nothing like FPrime (at least from what we have seen from the preview vids). However, CIM replied to my thread in the Maya forum of CGTalk saying that Maya 6 would have something like FPrime but better -

I don't know if the above is true but right now when FPrime is released, Lightwave will be unique in this area . . . at least for a while . . .

Skritter
02-26-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by atomman
However, CIM replied to my thread in the Maya forum of CGTalk saying that Maya 6 would have something like FPrime but better -

I did not know CIM knew Steve that well. Seeing he has all the inside scoop on what the complete FPrime specs are. All us mere mortals have to continue waiting on Steve to slowly fill us in.

Hervé
02-26-2004, 11:01 PM
I really think it does final render... otherwise, why adding 144 point lights to a scene for rendering in LW... this would be almost a bottleneck... in other words, he would be stu-pid to show something you could never render....;)

Panikos
02-27-2004, 12:49 AM
- AA passes / MotionBlur / DOF

- Sasquatch / Update information of LW-Buffers
(Depth / Alpha / Special) so Pixel/Image Fillters can be applied on results

- Radiosity/Caustics

- Fog / Backdrops / Environments

- Volumetrics / HVoxels

- Resolution Limits / Segment RAM

- Sequential Frames Saving

:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :cool:

Hervé
02-27-2004, 01:36 AM
Hello Panikos, here what I think, but who cares... anyway,

Sasquatsch..... maybe

AA passes... no need , it reminds me of an old 3D app (maybe it was Stratavision early versions) when you pushed render, the image was there completely, but as huge blocks that refined and refined and refined... (looks like the old car demo was AA'ed and the end, no?)

Radiosity, maybe just an approximation of it, but who knows...

Caustics get the same answer...

Volumetrics... hummm, I recall a demo on the web of real time volumetrics, so why not..?

Resolution seams to have no incidence on render, again the old timer demo shows no decrease in terms of speed when he enlarges the window....

Ram segment.... dunno

Sequential frame saving.... I think this one should be the least problem, so yes almost 100% sure, but someone said it should be scriptable if not implemented...

AAAAaaahhhh speculation...

I really need a demo today ! I am going nuts, believe it or not, I am now waiting more this Pearl than the LW8.... sorry NT... but I am not so much in CA, so it's pretty normal...

Later, Hervé

Panikos
02-27-2004, 02:54 AM
Herve

AA passes in a sense of distributing the sub-frame samples, essential for DOF and MotionBlur. Still images will result in a stop-motion animation. Of course AA here is not essential, but for other plugins to work like SasQ, XDOF etc the subframe samples are essential.

Volumetrics are in doubt, cause are part of the LW core and are applied after Pixel Filters, so Worley cannot prevent them from running. What he can do instead is to duplicate the Volumetrics code under his own terms so to allow realtime volumetrics lights and Voxels, something that I find rather impossible for the price of FPrime. But traditionally Worley surprises us with unpredictable tools, so who knows ?

Fog is very easy, but Environment plugins run at their speed, so procedural backdrops wont be real time, again Worley could write his own.

Last but not least, if FPrime has a Shader attached as last in the stack, would allow Surface Shaders to work though I doubt it cause they werent written with provision for Worley Magic :D

Conclusion : Worley is a league on his own, he could easily code a 3d-app that would take over the Crown of 3d industry. Thank God he develops for us, luckies ;)

jamesl
02-27-2004, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by ikaruz
I haven't really used any of the other 3D software, except for Max very briefly. So maybe I've been in the dark about other 3D software. Is it really old technology, that other applications had already? Reason been that I've noticed some Maya and Softimage user with similar comments as well, that's why I had previously asked what Maya's IPR and Softimage limited rendering region tools were and if they were similar to Fprime or Viper?

Well, I'm using Maya 6 beta, and unless there's something else that Alias/Wavefront is not telling us about, it has nothing like this. Maya's IPR is roughly analogous to LW VIPER... doesn't handle everything, but is a resonable approximation as long as you don't move the camera or objects. Nothing like Worley is showing. the whole deep render thing IS something that is old hat... but this appears to be a different animal. I'm waiting to install it on my laptop and take it into work to show 100+ raytraced lights rendering that fast. Please, Steve... show us batch capture with sasquatch and/or G2!

cheers,

j

deemon
02-27-2004, 05:41 AM
Not to burst any bubbles but if we skip the part where he moves an area light with all the other shadows being obviously cached, it didn't look to me THAT fast in this scene. It's faster than the native rendrer but nowhere near that more than 10 times difference seen in the other movies. I mean, it took it 6 seconds to redraw from 80x60 to 160x120, and it never rendered in full 320x240 in this movie unless I got something wrong with my DivX codec - from 2:10 through 2:36 there was no refinement going. I just did a test with the same amount of lights and polys and it took Lightwave 34 second to render it in full 320x240 on my setup, which makes FPrime being roughly 1.5 times faster in this scene.

jamesl
02-27-2004, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by deemon
Not to burst any bubbles but if we skip the part where he moves an area light with all the other shadows being obviously cached, it didn't look to me THAT fast in this scene. It's faster than the native rendrer but nowhere near that more than 10 times difference seen in the other movies. I mean, it took it 6 seconds to redraw from 80x60 to 160x120, and it never rendered in full 320x240 in this movie unless I got something wrong with my DivX codec - from 2:10 through 2:36 there was no refinement going. I just did a test with the same amount of lights and polys and it took Lightwave 34 second to render it in full 320x240 on my setup, which makes FPrime being roughly 1.5 times faster in this scene.

but I saw a rough approximation of the area light's effect on the scene within a second every time he moved it. Great renderings come from iterations, and this provides feedback that I haven't seen anywhere. And I'm not so sure the shadows were cached, as even though they were low rez, thay seemed interactive enough.

Skritter
02-27-2004, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by deemon
from 2:10 through 2:36 there was no refinement going.

It seems apparent from 2:18 onwards that the picture is frozen and no longer live. Nothing else moves, mouse pointer anything.
So there is no benchmark for render time lenght.

deemon
02-27-2004, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Skritter
It seems apparent from 2:18 onwards that the picture is frozen and no longer live. Nothing else moves, mouse pointer anything.
So there is no benchmark for render time lenght.

Mouse pointer does move at ~2:30 so I think it wasn't frozen. I can be wrong though. In any way, ~6 second from 80x60 to 160x120 makes it ~24 seconds required for a full 320x240 render. Lightwave does it in 34 sec here. On a dual Athlon 1800+ though, so FPrime is still quite faster.

Karmacop
02-27-2004, 07:16 AM
Jamie, it seems to cache alot. If it's not changing a pixel it wont rerender it. When he moves the area light you can see it's simply overlaying the light on what has already been rendered. If you look at the attchment you can see when he's editing the light on the left only the pixels affected by that light change, the pixels affected by the other light remain more detailed and don't change as they don't need to be recalculated. My guess is it renderes things simply and simply layers them ontop of each other like you would in photoshop. Even though it does this, I still don't understand how it can render these things so fast :eek:

Karmacop
02-27-2004, 07:16 AM
damn attchments :p

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:16 PM
here's what a chap in the max forum posted on the subject of F Prime:


[alex mc cloud]

The illusion of stupendous speed comes partly from intelligent caching - the same sort of caching that makes it easier to work at the top of Max's modifier stack than at the bottom (or easier to work with PFlow when using caches) - and partly from its progressive refinement, which drops the resolution by a factor of 4, 16, 64 etc. to maintain a frame-rate and fills in the gaps when it has time. If you used F-Prime to render an animated sequence it'd take just as long about it as any non-interactive renderer.

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:18 PM
and alex wrote this too...

The car demo, like I said before, is more impressive, but what it demonstrates is not a super-fast raytracer, but a more interactive raytracer. If you fired up a similar scene in Max (6, not 4 - Max 5 or 6 unified the previously separate shadow & shading acceleration) and hit render, you'd see a few stages: preparing geometry, preparing the raytrace acceleration, and then the render itself, wherein all the lights are handled concurrently and fed back into the same image buffer.

The difference in F-Prime would be that the geometry is prepared once, and held in RAM until parts of it were changed; then the acceleration structure is prepared once, and held onto until parts of it were changed, and then the shading processed one light at a time, each to its own image buffer, so that when any single light changed only that light's effect need be re-rendered and added to the image buffer that reaches display. The rendering order and AA are also obviously different, hence the progressive refinement, which also allows the interactive 'zoom', (which strangely shows no perspective shift; yep, it's just a blowup of the existing buffers with further progressive refinement). All of this goes on as a background process so you can mess with it as it goes. If you look at the latest video ("Massive Lighting") you'll see that one thing he doesn't do is move any objects - that'd mean the whole process would have to start again from scratch, taking roughly the duration of the whole video again.


Seriously Steve, it's nothing revolutionary. It was revolutionary in about 1994, when the first interactive renderers appeared using the exact same principles - or at least that sort of thing looked revolutionary, but it failed to start any real revolution, which is why it looks unusual now. Interactive rendering never really caught on. Will it now, now that CPU speeds are so much higher? Sure, once the global illumination fad passes and we all go back to point lights, and especially when reflective spheres come back into fashion.

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:22 PM
so is f prime nothing new...just a caching system that will be no benefit to sequential frames?

is it indeed old technology dressed up to seem to be a step forward..but is not really...

from what i see with "active shade" in 3dsmax 4,5 and 6..i'd have to say F PRIME is about 60 times faster with the advantage that you can move geometry and add geometry and frime looks better too.

i think it is new technology and ground breaking at that...

we really need to get some specs for f prime and a list of things it CANNOT do.

steve g

cresshead
02-27-2004, 12:32 PM
bottom line...

we'll see in due course..
everyone has their views in this and to be fair we have very little to go on in the way of information so far...

conjecture on everyone's part seems to lead to different answers!

time will indeed tell if it's a "ground breaker" or "a sheep in wolf's clothing"..........................

;)

js33
02-27-2004, 12:35 PM
I think you're 3D max friend is just jealous. :D

It may not be that new as far as 3D research goes but the fact that Steve Worley was able to take all the research and tie it deeply into Lightwave and provide it as a kickass previewing (and hopefully full rendering) solution is very groundbreaking.

Cheers,
JS

deemon
02-27-2004, 12:40 PM
Even though it sure does use some smart caching techniques and probably is not too much faster than LW itself for heavy scenes with lots of lights and stuff, it still doesn't explain why it renders reflections and refractions so much faster, as seen on the very first demo. So there has to be something more to it...

TSpyrison
02-27-2004, 12:57 PM
I don’t care if it’s new technology, old technology, intelligent caching or technology reversed engineered from the Roswell alien spacehip. F Prime is something that will help me tremendously, and I don’t realy care how it does it as long as it’s a fairly accurate representation. I’m ready to order, just tell me when.

I think the Max forum people are just trying to make themselves feel better.

Psyhke
02-27-2004, 01:01 PM
I think the MAX person is in a state of disbelief, just as I am. It HAS to be old tech, right? It's a hoax. All the videos were put together in Final Cut Pro!

Well, if it is old, boring, technology, then what the hell are people thinking not putting this into each and every 3D app as standard?

I dunno. Doesn't make sense.

PS - In reference to Worley not moving any objects in the videos-- that's false, he makes several clones of the green slugs and moves them around.

CB_3D
02-27-2004, 01:04 PM
What a non-sense. Independent of what it really is, preview or final render, this obviously is the fastest raytracer out there. And obviously this technology will eventually find its way into the other packages in one form or another, so what´s their problem?:rolleyes:

cresshead
02-27-2004, 01:17 PM
yeah i already emailed him about his version of events is based on "false logic"...he just came back with yeah but they must be using sphere and not polygons..so even a intel486 could do it..nothing special at all!...you just can't help some people eh!

well like i said.."thanks for the fish"...i'll be using F prime!
..you go a head n wait for 30 mins for a draft render or whack the screen in frustration with max with the non active "active shade" max has...

...not worth the effort in trying to explain to the people who only have blinkered minds focussed on max....and remember i'm a max, lightscape, combustion and lightwave user......

js33
02-27-2004, 01:28 PM
Well if MAX had or was going to have FPrime of course all the Max heads would be drooling, as we are :D. Since they can't get it and probably won't have it then they try to talk it down. Typical.

Maybe Worley will actually make it available for Max and Maya then we can say yeah but we had it first. :D

Cheers,
JS

Nemoid
02-27-2004, 02:15 PM
one thing that i'm thinking is that the kinda preview the Max user talks is there in G2 too. So, FPrime IMO is smth new because if this was not, Worley just would just have enhanced G2 preview window and end of the story. I think the features he shows are real; geometry can be added and moved as well as lights and more have to be showed soon.

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 02:58 PM
The problem with the above analaysis; i.e. that everything in the Worley demos is cached in RAM, is that you would need about 100GB of RAM to accomplish what is shown in the video. C'mon seriously, do you think he's keeping data for 144 lights in a buffer? If so, when does it dump?

Lightwave is getting alot of attention right now from the normally snobby other 'high end' 3D software guys. I think that people will buy Lightwave just to use FPrime. Newtek should kiss Worley's feet for developing something like this.

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:00 PM
I was playing around, just to see the current state of affairs compared to the promise of the FPrime demos.

No Scene Lights; Beach.hdr background image; Monte Carlo Radiosity 4x12

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:01 PM
640 x 480

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:02 PM
Skydome with radiosity; Monte Carlo 4x12; 1 bounce

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:02 PM
640 x 480 version

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:03 PM
150 point lights; same radiosity settings as before

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:05 PM
640 x 480 version.
As you can see, the point light array gives a different shadowing effect than the skydome, at the expense of a massive increase in rendertime. It is a pretty cool lighting rig, though.

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Last one:

The point light array with radiosity turned off.

kmscottmoore
02-27-2004, 03:09 PM
Viper was pretty much no help in the setup of these renders. Most of the time, the Viper preview was completely black; because the first two examples used no scene lighting at all.

I'm looking forward to FPrime very much. I think it will pay for itself in the first week.

deemon
02-27-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by kmscottmoore
C'mon seriously, do you think he's keeping data for 144 lights in a buffer? If so, when does it dump?

I think it just takes a snapshot of a currently computed shadow buffer whenever you add a new light, and then compose its buffer on top of the snapshotted one. No need in 100 GBs of ram...

cresshead
02-27-2004, 03:14 PM
.......i take that the test render's model is a represntation of a voodoo doll to make sure this doen't let f prime end up on max!

harlan
02-27-2004, 03:50 PM
I for one don't particularly care how it works as long as it gets the job done, and it appears to do that with flying colors.

I just hope and pray that it'll batch render.

Karmacop
02-27-2004, 03:54 PM
The guy is right that it's nothing new, but what Worley is doign with it is new. What worley is doing is nothing I've ever seen before in terms of flexability and speed. Yes it'll use alot of ram, but not as much a this guy thinks.

cagey5
02-27-2004, 04:36 PM
Well as someone who is constantly pressing f9 and tweaking I can see myself getting this even though it's a lot of money for what is just a hobby for me. But with the exchange rate as it is at the moment it works out at about £150, I just hope it gets released before it changes.

I think the model is for long distance acupuncture sessions btw. You can be sat at your desk and have all those aches and pains relieved by an authentic acupuncturist on the other side of the world. Just make sure you settle your account promptly!!

js33
02-27-2004, 04:59 PM
I wonder why there have been no updates for 2 days about F Prime on Worley's site? It seemed like he had the product finished and was just showing it's features. I hope it didn't get sucked into the Lightwave 8 blackhole. :(

Man all these products on the verge of being released but now it all seems so silent. Come on guys you're killin us.

Worley we are all ready to order. :)

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
02-27-2004, 05:34 PM
I happen to agree with the school of thought that it is irrelevant how it works - just that it seems to provide a feedback loop I have been craving for in 3D software since its inception.

Up till now one has had to imagine what a light addition/colour change/surface tweak/scene element translation/ would actually look like when rendered before committing to an f9. Once one sees the f9 result - one has to analyse the output and see what one doesn't like and compare with previous f9s to see the rate of change tweaking a setting makes on the output. If an f9 render takes a long time - an artist might even have forgotton what nob they have twiddled - thus making it very hard to improve.

What FP appears to allow is for a user to actually see the results of a setting change in "real time" - by that I mean not fully completed render in real time - but, if you approach the scene in a new way - effectively real time.

Say one starts by focusing on object surfacing - the bulk of the surface on the actual object geometry can be rapidly achieved in FP. Then layout the scene - and throw in the lights - tweak to get the result you desire!

My point is that the human doesn't need to see a totally clear perfect render to interpret the effect that an action is having on the potential resulting image - and I think this is where fprime has hit the nail on the head when f9 missed it.

Think about it - we can recognise a person from very blurry pixelated images - we can see if a light is giving us the right sort of highlights and shadows without seeing a full render - we can see if a gradient is alpha masking a texture element to the correct degree without seeing the entire texture.

Where fprime wins and all other systems I have seen to date fails is it uses all available CPU cycles to start the preview ASAP for changes made by the user - the user only has to wait for enough information to be calculated for them to interpret the consequence of that change.

With good multitasking - one need never press f9 (assuming it has GI/SAS/Vol etc) because so many potential CPU cycles are wasted in the normal computing session. If the plugin multithreads well - we may finally see the 8-way opteron become the ultimate CG workstation. Often a second processor is redundant in normal lightwave work - the CPU power is simply not harvested efficiently.

I for one will take it as it comes - I am already missing this plug-in and I havn't even used it yet. I can see this being a real coup for the CG Artist - we'll be able to get what we want a lot easier - and our eye for what makes a good image will be able to shine. It will mean some of "the dark art" of 3D will be lost - but as far as I'm concerned - good riddance to it!

3DBob

js33
02-27-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by 3DBob
I for one will take it as it comes - I am already missing this plug-in and I havn't even used it yet. I can see this being a real coup for the CG Artist - we'll be able to get what we want a lot easier - and our eye for what makes a good image will be able to shine. It will mean some of "the dark art" of 3D will be lost - but as far as I'm concerned - good riddance to it!

3DBob

This should also allow noobs get up to speed faster as they won't have to guess what a knob tweak will do. So this means there will be no excuse for crappy looking newbie images anymore. Hehehehe.

Cheers,
JS

js33
02-27-2004, 06:06 PM
Man Worley's site has been too quite lately. I want to see more previews and features. Actually I just want them to ship what has already been demoed. I'm happy with that for now and they can add more features in later updates.

Cheers,
JS

ikaruz
02-27-2004, 06:08 PM
3DBob you hit the nail in the coffin. That's what I'm looking at Fprime for and how it will tremendously improve my workflow and at the same time make it more enjoyable just been able to interactively see every small little tweak I make to a scene to achive the desired results.


If the plugin multithreads well - we may finally see the 8-way opteron become the ultimate CG workstation. Often a second processor is redundant in normal lightwave work - the CPU power is simply not harvested efficiently.
I can picture it now :D.

nixx
02-27-2004, 06:12 PM
Very nicely put, 3DBob :)

nick

3DBob
02-27-2004, 06:26 PM
holy **** - new video with DEPTH OF FIELD!!!!!!!!!

smh
02-27-2004, 06:30 PM
where?

3DBob
02-27-2004, 06:31 PM
Go grab it from here

http://www.worley.com/cool/FPrime_DOF_Reflect.avi

Be impressed - be very impressed

Image here

http://www.worley.com/cool/Buy12.jpg

Notice this one is call "Buy12" Just give me the goddam button to buy 1 Worley - now!!!

TSpyrison
02-27-2004, 06:40 PM
How the heck did you find that?
I dont see a link on the web...

nixx
02-27-2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by 3DBob
Notice this one is call "Buy12" Just give me the goddam button to buy 1 Worley - now!!!

Maybe he means the 12 cars that are on the image ;)

nick

3DBob
02-27-2004, 06:42 PM
uhhh I figured that too - but why call it buy - or maybe "I'll buy 1 2 "?

3dBob

newagetitan
02-27-2004, 06:47 PM
Shame shame...3dBob.
3dBob has played with enough sites to know that sometimes web developers forget to turn off browse on a given directory.

smh
02-27-2004, 06:48 PM
I know a lot of people who are going to freak out when they see this. Where do I sign?

3DBob
02-27-2004, 06:52 PM
grrrr - I tried not to answer that quesion - worley has never had browse turned off on this directory, and he always posts his coolest stuff here - I have seen videos on G2 and Sas before their pages were up - now he might choose to turn it off. Oh well.

See a web developer allways has to upload videos and images before HTML - and worley almost invariably uploads at 1.30GMT!

He'll do something different now. Maybe it will be SAS? Please worley - I need to see SAS preview.....

3DBob

nixx
02-27-2004, 06:57 PM
Could it mean "buy ON 12" ? As in, March 12th ?

I 'd rather it meant "buy at 12", as in "tomorrow at 12pm" :D

Come on Steve, we 're dying out here ! You 've achieved the unbelievable: we 're missing this plugin without even having used it, without even knowing its full potential (or limits, if any) yet !

nick

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:10 PM
He's put an icon in cool - so I think after he's written a few comments they'll be an extra bit of HTML up.

I think he would be wise to start selling before the release of L8 (late at I call it now ;-) ) I recon there's a few penny savers out there that would get this for 7.5c before shelling out on eight. Doesn't affect me as I've already got 1 copy paid for - my other will wait and the one that I got with T3 I hope will be upgraded as part of the t4 upgrade.

3DBob

smh
02-27-2004, 07:12 PM
Guys I remember that model from somewhere. I think it's another one by Christophe Desse. But one thing I'm sure of, it always had that "Buy12" plate.

Netvudu
02-27-2004, 07:15 PM
Is it me, or does the DOF look very grainy. I´m not sure if it´s actually grainy or if it´s that he stopped the render every time before the AA was over.

Also, do you think this DOF is multipass-based, or depth buffer based? If it was the prior that could mean motion blur too, which would allow for some cool spinning lights tricks (and Overcaster too!...don´t forget Eki´s cool babe :) ) , but the grainy DOF got me in doubt =/

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:16 PM
hey nixx,

you must be a real 3D artist - it's late for me here - but you're in Greece - see what you're doing to us Worley - this sleep deprivation is wearing - I'm doing some stimulating 3D whilst I wait for the scraps and crumbs of information though - so it's not too bad.

3DBob

js33
02-27-2004, 07:18 PM
Thanks for the link 3Dbob. :D

I think Worley better start selling fast before the excitement starts to wane. I'm still excited about F Prime but the initial excitement has worn off already and I'm more into the "when can I use it stage" now.

Cheers,
JS

Netvudu
02-27-2004, 07:19 PM
oh, and I thought it was a bit slower ´til I noticed it´s almost a million and a half polys there :p

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:19 PM
Hey Netvudu

I think he stopped it early - nuff said type of thing - even if it doesn't go all the way - it shows you what will and will not be focussed - and with respect to my previous post - this is all about great feedback and a nitro into the 3D workflow pipeline!

3DBob

Netvudu
02-27-2004, 07:22 PM
agreed. My comment was mainly directed towards the motion blur thingy. Grainy motion blur might ruin some cool lighting tricks.

nixx
02-27-2004, 07:24 PM
Hey 3DBob,

Aren't we all night owls anyway... ;) And with something like the occassional new bit of info about FPrime, who needs sleep :p

As for me being a "true 3D artist", well thank you very much my friend but this is a huge compliment I 'm just not worthy of :)

Now back to working, waiting, and doing the forums thing in between !

nick

smh
02-27-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by Netvudu

Also, do you think this DOF is multipass-based, or depth buffer based? If it was the prior that could mean motion blur too, which would allow for some cool spinning lights tricks (and Overcaster too!...don´t forget Eki´s cool babe :) ) , but the grainy DOF got me in doubt =/


Notice where he went to pick the AA settings? Yep, the good old camera properties panel! Didn't you folks also notice how he used LW's own reflection blur. Oh yeah, and the whole thing was a mere 1,4 Million polys!

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:32 PM
Worley is just teasing us - notice how he is moving into more and more surface and render related panel. I'd like to see him in the shaders / pixel filters panels. Oh the frustration - just give us a feature list - i'm developing an advanced psychosis here!!!

3DBob

TSpyrison
02-27-2004, 07:33 PM
Ive already talked the boss into picking this up for me.. Just have to move fast though. Never know when Corporate is going to cut the budget again :(

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:36 PM
From worleys site


Today's demo video today shows off more rendering features such as blurry reflections and depth of field. To keep it challenging, we load the scene with 1.4 million polygons.

Note he doesn't say the rest but "more" rendering features. Implying there is yet more to come.

and another:-


We'll keep demonstrating features, filling in details, and answering questions here as we build up for FPrime's launch

To "build up" for a launch - he is gonna have to have held back a whole load of stuff to keep up this momentum and impress us as much!

3DBob

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:41 PM
Oh dear - he appears to have overwritten the large image of the output with a small one in cool. ho hum.

3DBob

newagetitan
02-27-2004, 07:48 PM
Sorry 3DBob...

However, I doubt he will change it.

js33
02-27-2004, 07:48 PM
Yes I just want a feature list. I don't care if it can do anymore than he has already shown. I just want it now. :D

We have already been teased to death with LW 8 videos and still don't have that yet either.

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
02-27-2004, 07:56 PM
Ok newagetitan - who are you - only 4 posts and the last two posts imply you work at Worley Labs - you know more don't you - tell us - TELL US NOOOOOWWW!!!

3DBob

3DBob
02-27-2004, 08:14 PM
ok forget the last post - paranoid delusions setting in causing misinterpretations of real world events.

Believe it or not - I still think that Worley has produced a plugin that can preview nearly 1.4m polys with REFLECTION BLURRING and DOF turned on.

3DBob

js33
02-27-2004, 08:16 PM
Hehehe. You're losing it worse than I am. :D

Perhaps you should go to sleep now 3Dbob and render your million poly dreams in F Prime.

Cheers,
JS

harlan
02-27-2004, 08:59 PM
Wow...3DBob must have been hittin the sauce again!!!!

Panikos
02-28-2004, 02:06 AM
:D :cool: ;)

Worley is the KING !
FPrime uses distributed Raytracing so eventually DOF, MotionBlur, Blurry Reflections/Refractions are possible in RT.
Additionally I can predict that the confusion (that grainy look) is welcome, not because it seems as a weakness, but because in reality the confusion is infinite and resembles the Iris-Shape.

(When there is a sun-eclipse and you are under a tree, the areas that the light crosses through take the shape of the eclipse)

So far, by observing all videos and combining the LW knowledge, I can see that FPrime is a MasterClassPlugin, a Shader plugin, a Generic Plugin, and a PixelFilter. Thats because all surfaces have a Shader applied to them so FPrime can collect their info all the time, and PixelFilters are performed after every AA-pass.

I see a huge potential in this technology. Worley is the proud man that implemented this in this complete form, showing the future of 3D.

Hervé
02-28-2004, 03:10 AM
.... well said Panikos... life is beautiful !!:D :cool:

Psyhke
02-28-2004, 03:19 AM
I really wish he would have posted a full screen shot of a complete DOF pic. I finished watching that one wondering if we were seeing the first chink in the armor of this beast, or if it was just a matter of letting FP run for more than 10 seconds or so on a shot... I'm in a good mood so I'll assume DOF will look nice and clean after completing. :D

3DBob
02-28-2004, 06:14 AM
Psyhke,

Since effects like DOF require the whole frame to be rendered - I guess it would take nearly nine times as long to complete than a Non AA full FP render - his point was that it can do DOF and REF BLUR (with a time penalty - but it was 1.4m polygons) - hopefully he will have a similar point to make on some of the outstanding issues in his "build up" to launch - for me the killer would be SAS.

3DBob

Panikos
02-28-2004, 08:59 AM
3DBob, you are right about the 9x rendering time. Similarly 32x for Extreme situation.

Since Worley is the father of so many cool tools, I bet by now he has the knowledge and experience to drive LW, as well as his other tools (SasQ) in the new era.
I wish Newtek is listening to his suggestions.

;)

Imageshoppe
02-28-2004, 10:16 AM
I'm wondering... did he choose medium anti-aliasing because he wanted 9 passes?

Or did he choose medium just to gain access to the DOF controls... without AA on at least medium you can't adjust DOF...

Jim Arthurs

Panikos
02-28-2004, 11:32 AM
As long as the function works, all AA modes are selectable.

Imageshoppe
02-28-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Panikos
As long as the function works, all AA modes are selectable.
?????

I'm sorry, I probably didn't phrase that right, so we might not be on the same page...

...what I'm trying to get at is that I think the ONLY reason he turned on Medium AA was to get at the controls for DOF (which are ghosted until at least Medium AA is activated).

I doubt that he is using any aspect of LW's AA in FPrime's actual rendering, whether it's set to 5,9,17, or 33 passes.

Jim Arthurs

Panikos
02-28-2004, 12:40 PM
One way or the other, FPrime is so cool :D

petermark
02-28-2004, 01:46 PM
I'm really, really anxious to see the whole capability of this thing! If it is only good for previews, I'll probably not buy it... I just don't have enough money floating around to justify it (I'm just a hobbyist). But if it allows for complete animation rendering, and especially if it includes extra export functions (alpha, reflect, shadow catching, etc.) then I will likely jump for it.

But at the rate we're getting these video clips, it'll take forever to even see if it has these functions! Aaaaah!

3DBob
02-28-2004, 06:45 PM
Just wanted to say a thought I had - for the first time FP allows you to surface your actual gemetry whilst potentially seeing top/bottom/side/front/back views using multiple cameras - must be a first - viper couldn't do it - no more fall of/gradient ambiguity - see the result of actions on both sides. Wow this tool is gonna be useful.

Maybe somone could write an lscript that automatically calculates the size of your selected object/objects newly loaded into layout - gives you the option to add temporary additional targetted lights to light them/cameras to view them from a selection of sides via check boxes (Front/Back/Top/Bottom/L/R). Once surfaced you run the plugin again to remove the added lights/cameras - to clean up the scene (it could name them with a prefix and then clean up all scene elements with that prefix).

How about it Steve? Can FP viewports be launched from an lscript?

3DBob

Cman
02-28-2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Panikos
:D :cool: ;)

Worley is the KING !
FPrime uses distributed Raytracing so eventually DOF, MotionBlur, Blurry Reflections/Refractions are possible in RT.
Additionally I can predict that the confusion (that grainy look) is welcome, not because it seems as a weakness, but because in reality the confusion is infinite and resembles the Iris-Shape.

(When there is a sun-eclipse and you are under a tree, the areas that the light crosses through take the shape of the eclipse)

So far, by observing all videos and combining the LW knowledge, I can see that FPrime is a MasterClassPlugin, a Shader plugin, a Generic Plugin, and a PixelFilter. Thats because all surfaces have a Shader applied to them so FPrime can collect their info all the time, and PixelFilters are performed after every AA-pass.

I see a huge potential in this technology. Worley is the proud man that implemented this in this complete form, showing the future of 3D.

That would be awesome.
Maybe it would mean you merely add a shader to the end of any shader stack, for example, and so EVERY rendering that's possible in LW works in FPrime!!

oh man oh man oh man oh man oh man

Panikos
03-01-2004, 07:00 PM
New TimeScrubbing, Modeler Update, Fog Video ;)

Wondering what are these little numbers on FPrime Window.
Speculating for # of updates, or AA-passes.
Worley knows :p

smh
03-01-2004, 07:04 PM
I'm willing to bet those are frame counters! We'll just have to wait and see...great stuff indeed.

-SMH

philthorn
03-01-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Panikos
New TimeScrubbing, Modeler Update, Fog Video ;)

Wondering what are these little numbers on FPrime Window.
Speculating for # of updates, or AA-passes.
Worley knows :p

My guess would be some kind of render level achieved. The higher the number the more refined the render. This would be a way to say... hmmm looks good at 3 - set the animation sequence saving to generate a new frame at level 3. :-)

Just a guess (wish, hope, dream)

js33
03-01-2004, 07:11 PM
Well I'm sure most of us have seen enough already to want to order this.

I wonder why he hasn't released it yet?

What is he waiting for?

The only thing I can come up with is he makes a few demos and reads the forums for feedback and goes back in and adds features until he feels it is finished?

Or maybe he has to wait for 8 to be released? I can't imagine why either?

Cheers,
JS

Panikos
03-01-2004, 07:13 PM
Its really funny

philthorn, who are you ?
Your smile reminds me of something :D

smh
03-01-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by smh
I'm willing to bet those are frame counters!

I was wrong, it wasn't a frame counter..:( At one point it went up to 18, but the frame was static, save for better AA. So after closer inspection it does look like a "pass count" of some sort.

-SMH

Panikos
03-01-2004, 07:33 PM
More Speculations ...

Since Worley drives the rendering off the normal course, then I think that Procedural Backdrops are possible cause they are composed of ordinary texturing and procedural shaders.
Its is as simple as rendering a sphere with a texture (exclude Skytracer here)
Similarly the Volumetric Lights and HVoxels can be duplicated, as well as Radiosity and Caustics.
I cannot guess anything about Lens_Flare. (I wish for a non-pinhole camera, or orthographic camera, I hate myself when I am asking much)


Worley simply reads the Scene and Surfaces and generates what LW takes so long to produce ...

Still, few questions and doubts are puzzling me.
Are all these functions and their beauty for a preview only ?

Logically speaking, (with my humble knowledge of LW_SDK) I would say that if all geometry is set to Unseen by Camera, and the result of FPrime is passed to a PixelFilter (thats easy cause PixelFilter is direct access to the RGB Buffers of LW) I assume that the LW_Buffers contain Black cause LW fills them only when LW_rendering takes place.
(ColorDepth - # of bits here is questionable)
Alpha Channel is open for access, as well as Depth. (See Sasquatch)
In G2 Worley generates his own buffers but exporting them is Impossible cause they accomodate a lot of RAM to be of real size and colordepth, outside the buffers of LW.

Too many dreams I see ... So far FPrime looks too good to be true. Hopefully my thoughts wont be taken as FPrime features :eek:
Hmmmm
:confused:

smh
03-01-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Panikos
...Still, a few questions are puzzling me.
Are all these functions and their beauty for a preview only ?

Hmmmm
:confused:


Do you think we really need 18 AA passes to preview/evaluate an image? I know I don't...and I guess worley knows what we really want out of something he calls a RENDERER.

Looks like he wants to stretch this some more. We can only wait, and speculate before we get to see. ;)


-SMH

Panikos
03-01-2004, 07:48 PM
smh, many times I wished LW had more AA_passes.
18 is less than 32-native LW passes. Some people complain about LW's motionblur that resembles onion-skin ...

Since the speed of FPrime is so fast, the option to select how many recursions you want would be neat :D

3DBob
03-01-2004, 07:55 PM
Worley is God - this really is awesome stuff!! - I was thinking about if it worked through the hub today - and hey presto - we ask for volumetrics - and here we see fog - it does appear that there are very little buttons in FP - you just proceed as normal and FP deals with showing you what its gonna look like - Fantastic. He's just running through lightwaves panels.

Now Steve Worley - let's just get this over with - Can FP or can FP not do SAS!!!!


3DBob

tokyo drifter
03-01-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by smh
I was wrong, it wasn't a frame counter..:( At one point it went up to 18, but the frame was static, save for better AA. So after closer inspection it does look like a "pass count" of some sort.

-SMH Hi, I've been lurking here, thought I'd chime in. SMH, I think you were right the first time. I'm betting that it is a frame counter. The reason it stopped at 18 was because he edited the model and when it was updated in layout it had to start the frames over again. So hopefully this means, yes, f-prime can render out multiple frames!

:D

EDIT: Nevermind, you were right. :D

smh
03-01-2004, 08:06 PM
Panikos what you said is true, and I agree with you on the need for greater AA. But my point is, that 32 or even 18 AA passes on a motion blurred scene would be useless, unless you can afford to make a final clip out of them. There is no point in testing at 32 AA passes on a presumed FPrime (previewer), knowing that LW's native renderer takes eternity to render your scene. So in order to call FPrime a renderer, it would have to match LW's native renderer feature for other. And it should certainly start by saving clips too. This is certainly something worley had in mind, when he decided to call FPrime a renderer. Having said that, here's an interesting quote from his comments on todays video:

"Animators use more than just still frames."


-SMH

smh
03-01-2004, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by tokyo drifter
SMH, I think you were right the first time. I'm betting that it is a frame counter. The reason it stopped at 18 was because he edited the model and when it was updated in layout it had to start the frames over again. So hopefully this means, yes, f-prime can render out multiple frames!
:D

That was my 1st assumption, but then I checked the OpenGL view. I compared what it showed during frames 1-18 to FPrime's content. If FPrime was doing a clip, it would have showed a noticeable change as of "frame" 12-14. What happened was simply better AA over and over.

Anyway I still say FPrime will do clips. Worley's plugins usually have many "access points". In G2 there's a preview window, like FPrime with more buttons for buffer isolation. Then there's the control panel window, where you set the main aspects. So I'm sure we will see a "master" panel soon.


I also think FPrime will render sasquatch content. You should remember that Sas happened to be where the whole preview thing started to appear.


-SMH

Panikos
03-01-2004, 08:26 PM
smh, take off the mask :p
Steve M. Hurley :D

:rolleyes:

smh
03-01-2004, 08:33 PM
Panikos, you missed...but I forgive you...it's 5:30Am in Cyprus...:D

Panikos
03-01-2004, 08:40 PM
ROTFL ;)

dashwilson
03-01-2004, 08:41 PM
To js33,

I've just get email reply from worley that their staff predict they hope release F-prime in this month and it will be electronic download. So, F-prime's development is completed. May be they want to tight up with LW 8 release!!

lasvideo
03-01-2004, 09:46 PM
Steves quote today:

Animators use more than just still frames. You're making objects move, lights rotate, and textures animate. Time scrubbing is important!

gives me great hope that fprime is Two...Two....Two functions in 1. Yes....its a preview window....Yes....its a Renderer (that makes more than just still frames...
Only the shadow knows......smh?

js33
03-01-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by dashwilson
To js33,

I've just get email reply from worley that their staff predict they hope release F-prime in this month and it will be electronic download. So, F-prime's development is completed. May be they want to tight up with LW 8 release!!
Yeah that's what I figured. They want to give us a double whammy. The only problem is we have to wait 3 more weeks.
I don't know if I can last that long. :(

Oh the humanity. Will this waiting ever end. :confused:

But anyway at least there IS light(wave) at the end of the tunnel. :D

Cheers,
JS

Psyhke
03-01-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by js33
Oh the humanity. Will this waiting ever end. :confused:


Hehe. Yeah, I was just realizing between LW8 and now FPrime all it seems like I've been doing is watching videos to no end. Less videos, more buying and downloading! If I never see another super cool preview video it'll be too soon. :) Just kidding (sort of).

js33
03-01-2004, 10:37 PM
The only videos I want to see are the ones we all make with our new toys. I don't want to see any more feature demos for awhile. :D

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
03-02-2004, 03:17 AM
GIMME GIMME *GIMMEEEEEEE*

3DBob

mattclary
03-02-2004, 05:29 AM
It's going to the point of overkill now. The only reason I even look here or on his site now are to see if it's available for purchase.

I'm starting to suspect he's in negotiations with Newtek.

Only Newtek has this capacity to torture users and withold new toys. :rolleyes:

CB_3D
03-02-2004, 07:41 AM
LOL, almost like the x-files. Clues without end, but no showdown.

From a marketing POV it wouldn´t be too smart to release it at the same time as 8. Sure way to loose sales...although i am convinced it´s actually the other way around. Many people will hold back on the 8 update to buy Fprime first, me thinks.

I mean, a new semi-realtime renderer?! That´s what i call an update.:D

js33
03-02-2004, 02:04 PM
Like I said in another thread I think FPrime will have more features in LW8 than in 7.5 due to the updated SDK for 8 and that may be why he will wait for 8 to be released to release F Prime.

Cheers,
JS

CB_3D
03-02-2004, 03:16 PM
That would be my guess, too, if there hadn´t been the demo with 7.5. But yes, it´s a possibilty. We´ll see this week.;)

cresshead
03-02-2004, 04:09 PM
wouldn't it be amazin to have this thing built into the core of lightwave 8?....properly hooked up for animation renders too and G.I.....i'd let newtek delay lw 8 till siggraph 2004!

...hey..ouch!!..that hurt you know!...geez your a good aim with that lw 7 manual!

steve g;)

Psyhke
03-02-2004, 04:36 PM
Yes. Yes it would. That and add FPrime to the dropdown of viewport modes. That would be very very slick. I'm thinking back to the video (now missing) that showed G2 displaying within a LW viewport. So may be possible with FPrime down the road?

KillMe
03-02-2004, 05:28 PM
yeah having it as a viewport option would rock - even as a plugin nice tight intergration will make it seem a more professional solution

Panikos
03-03-2004, 07:01 PM
Worley shows two new images featuring FPrime's strength in DOF with no jaggies. Additionally he specifies that FPrime renders in Full Precision, the reflections & refractions are identical and FPrime will be out next week =O)))))))))

Pleasant news !

mattclary
03-03-2004, 07:06 PM
I thought he said next week last week? :rolleyes:

Cageman
03-03-2004, 07:19 PM
OMG... "Two final still renders of the complex 2/27 demo scene:
LightWave medium AA render: 7 hours, 29 minutes, 8 seconds.
FPrime render: 30 minutes, 18 seconds."

Maybe this is old news, but the renderspeed is just blowing my mind right now... :)

Worley (http://www.worley.com/)

nixx
03-03-2004, 07:21 PM
So do you guys think we 've seen it all then ?

Me, judging by Worley's drama-marketing so far, hmmm... no, I think he saves the best for last :)

...or at least I hope he does !
(Steve, my previous offer still stands if it does HVs too :p)

nick

Panikos
03-03-2004, 07:23 PM
Geia sou nixx apo tin Thessaloniki ;)

nixx
03-03-2004, 07:25 PM
!

Geia sou file mou Panikos apo ti Nicosia ! :D

nick

harlan
03-03-2004, 07:28 PM
mia noa undastanda. xing gow jute deuteronomy

nixx
03-03-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by harlan
mia noa undastanda. xing gow jute deuteronomy

You know this last word was actually greek, harlan :p

nick

js33
03-03-2004, 07:35 PM
F Prime's DOF render looked better than the Lightwave render and in one 15th the time. Yeah Steve.

I bet that it WILL save sequences. It would be a big waste if it couldn't. Steve says it renders using the same precision as Lightwave. If this was just a preview tool it wouldn't have to be that accurate.

Cheers,
JS

harlan
03-03-2004, 07:41 PM
No kiddin? It was greek to me!! ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm envious of you greece dwellers though!

ddho1981
03-03-2004, 07:49 PM
holy cow--that's frickin amazing! i've never looked forward more to plopping down $300 . . . i hope it does GI, i hope it does GI, i hope it does GI -- i'm not holding my breath though.... with those rendertimes, i suppose i can set up a light rig in a fraction of the time of waiting for a test render....

Panikos
03-03-2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by js33
I bet that it WILL save sequences. It would be a big waste if it couldn't. Steve says it renders using the same precision as Lightwave. If this was just a preview tool it wouldn't have to be that accurate.


Yes, it looks that will be a LW-renderer duplicate hopefully with only some minor limitations, but traditionally Worley in the mid-term sends reports to Newtek for some weaknesses in LW_SDK.

I admire Worley so much. He is a great magician :D

js33
03-03-2004, 08:37 PM
Too bad there aren't more Worley's in the world. But if everyone was a Worley then there wouldn't be any Worley's. :D

Cheers,
JS

Panikos
03-03-2004, 09:09 PM
Allow me to disagree partially.
As long as someone is giving his best at what he does, and loves what he does, he eventually becomes a Specialist.
Worley without artists using his tools would have been very sad.
So, we recognise him as specialist by using his tools creating cool images, and we become art-specialists. Everyone fits in his role, so our duty is to become better artists.

There are great people everywhere in different roles. I admire them and thank them. As an artist I am trying hard to become better, without becoming a money-cannibal.
Too much commercialization ruins art.

MorituriMax
03-03-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by ddho1981
holy cow--that's frickin amazing! i've never looked forward more to plopping down $300 . . . i hope it does GI, i hope it does GI, i hope it does GI -- i'm not holding my breath though.... with those rendertimes, i suppose i can set up a light rig in a fraction of the time of waiting for a test render....

..mark me as a noob.. but what the heck is GI? I keep seeing it lately and haven't figured it out yet.. yeah yeah I could do a google.. but I like interacting with people more... 8 )

Thanks for any info

Panikos
03-03-2004, 10:46 PM
Global Illumination

Computation of all possible interreflections of light in the scene,
including radiosity, caustics, subsurface scattering, colorbleeding etc

MorituriMax
03-03-2004, 11:00 PM
Ahhhhh sooooo... Thanks!

js33
03-03-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Panikos
Allow me to disagree partially.
As long as someone is giving his best at what he does, and loves what he does, he eventually becomes a Specialist.
Worley without artists using his tools would have been very sad.
So, we recognise him as specialist by using his tools creating cool images, and we become art-specialists. Everyone fits in his role, so our duty is to become better artists.

There are great people everywhere in different roles. I admire them and thank them. As an artist I am trying hard to become better, without becoming a money-cannibal.
Too much commercialization ruins art.

Oh I agree. I meant Worley as in referring to programmers. Sure there are Worley's in every field and he is outstanding in his. I hope he doesn't catch cold. :D

Cheers,
JS

Hervé
03-03-2004, 11:35 PM
nothing about the two biggest questions

GI....I....I....I....I....I....I....I....I....I... .I....

Shader....der....der....der....der....der....


Lucky me, my car just started...8KWRTFEuuu:D

3DBob
03-04-2004, 04:55 AM
Awesome stuff Worley - I think the DOf is better, the AA is better ( especially on the grille ) but I do prefer lightwaves blurry reflections - but not 15 times as much. Blurry reflections have to be one of the slowest renderingfeatures in LW so I think a lot of the speed gain comes here - but who cares the FP ones look great too.

Now when worley says "releasing next week" does that mean Monday or Sunday - I bet it will be 2.00am GMT on Saturday. Oh the speculation.

That gives him, what... four more chances to show this plugins metal. Lets see, for me:-

1. SAS
3. Shaders
4. Volumetrics
5. GI

I really think worley is working towards a secondary renderer for lightwave - G2 deals with the shader bit, F9 the speed bit. He has several references in the G2 manual to LW renderers failings so he knows it could be improved.

This is the point - worley can offer so much more to the LW community than to any other 3D packages community - mostly because there are holes to plug. I really like lightwaves renderer - albeit sometimes slower than desired. The beauty of developing for lightwave is that its like a Mac - only a few known versions of the renderer options (whatever their bugs) to get your software working with. The fact is because the renderer and its panels are built in - hooking into the whole lot should be easier. The bonus is we as users don't have to learn a new interface - we just twiddle the knobs we are used to.

I would really like this to be a full renderer - but if it is I think that it may cause further stagnation in LWs own renderer development - but if worley keeps his price reasonable then I'm happy to see NT develop awesome modelling/animation tools and let worley (who appears to be clearly better at this than NT) deal with the renderer.

No steve, what about those remaining issues - are they all gonna be shown in the big build up?

3DBob

3DBob
03-04-2004, 06:16 AM
Just a quick thought - you know SAS can't been seen in LW reflections because of SDK and implimentation issues. What if SAS could be seen in FP, but not just as lightwave renderes it - maybe F9 can show SAS in reflective surfaces!

Also I can't see FP not supporting G2 as every surface you used G2 on would not preview correctly in FP.

I think worley will have a patch for G2 and SAS to allow FP to see their changes. Roll on their new preview.

FP may not see LW shaders owing to SDK issues.

3dBob

Nemoid
03-04-2004, 07:54 AM
Great thoughts.
Since G2, Sas and FPrime are 3 Worley products, i think he'll manage to make all of them work together , in LW.
Its a natural consequence.
Lw 8 will offer an improved SDK so maybe some issues will be
or are going to be solved soon.

Panikos
03-04-2004, 11:35 AM
Unless a scene element has 3 dimensions it cant be visible in reflections. As you know Sasquatch composes hair/fur on LW imagery over/between/behind 3d geometry, by taking into account LW lights and shadows.
Sasquatch shadows are casted by cheating LW with a shadow map.

So, since practically SasQ doesnt exist in the scene, it cant be reflected or refracted, until it becomes volumetric.

I think that if FPrime can work as a render-engine replacement then naturally FPrime Release will be accompanied with G2 and Sasquatch update taking advantage of the new progress.
That is, if FPrime treats DOF differently then Sasquatch will follow in the same manner otherwise the two elements combined will conflict.

What puzzles me is that Surface-Tweaking with FPrime was only on surfaces with no-shaders applied. In the G2-head demo animation, the twaking was done on the eyes only which didnt have G2 applied. So, I think that shader plugins wont update FPrime. Just thoughts, who knows :confused:

Nemoid
03-04-2004, 01:35 PM
Agree.

probably the other plugs will be updated in a good way to work properly with FPrime. so, maybe you will have some probs with the Lw renderer, but not with FPrime.
It would be very strange that 3 plugs from the same producer have a conflict between each other, even for logical reasons. since Worley always find great workarounds with this kinda probs, he'll probably find a good way to obtain this.

obviously for G2 you could currently apply it and use its preview, then pass the scene through Fprime and tweak the other elements. not exactly a flexible worflow, but it gets the job done. however, since the Fprime preview and G2 have many things in common I'd not be surprised of a blending between the two windows in the near future.

A really good thing would be if Fprime window could become the common preview window working with this 3 plugs too (as an option, to allow users to buy them separately if they want) this way you will have alot of flexibility and power.

3DBob
03-04-2004, 06:19 PM
Nemoid, I meant a common preview window - and I assume this will be worleys aim. Lets face it, if you've bought a worley plug-in before, you're gonna get FP - if you havn't and you value the wrk you do in LW, your gonna get FP!

3DBob

Nemoid
03-05-2004, 03:18 AM
:D very true! :D

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:13 PM
RADIOSITY AND MOTION BLUR -!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ddho1981
03-05-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by 3DBob
RADIOSITY AND MOTION BLUR -!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what about them???

js33
03-05-2004, 06:20 PM
Hehehee.
3DBob did you always peak in your presents before Christmas. :D
I saw all the stuff listed in the cool directory but I will wait a few minutes and let Worley update the page before looking at it.

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:22 PM
OH MY GOD - WORLEY IS A GENIUS - THAT IS REALLY GROUNDBREAKING RADIOSITY/MB - See it here

www.worley.com/cool/

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:26 PM
2nd radiosity vid is still uploading get FPrime_radiosity_things first AND BE PREPARED TO BE OFFICIALLY BLOWN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:27 PM
FPs Motion Blur is FAR SUPERIOR to lightwaves - but it takes HALF the time!!!!!

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:29 PM
3rd radiosty vid going up now - second one is uploaded!! - the third is the skull LW scne me thinks - this is too much worley - give me a button I want to throw money at you

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:31 PM
he seems to have his own panel to get round the SDK limitations for his radiosity switch on - but you set it up otherwise in Layout - like luminous surfaces.

This is just amazing!!

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:33 PM
3rd video up - go get it...

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:37 PM
He really is showing off now - 6 minutes to do a great looking radiosity frame - I am officially freaked!!!!

3DBob

cagey5
03-05-2004, 06:40 PM
I've only seen the one. But even without all this latest stuff I was officially gobsmacked. As you say, where is the little button to click on so I can send you money. I want to play with this as soon as possible.

Roll on next week.

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:42 PM
If he is now building up that skull demo is mind blowing - it appears that FP continues to work in the background even when you are in th save panel.

LW produced a far inferior skull in 3m42s that FP did nearly straght away!!!!

HE IS SAVING THE BEST FOR LAST - And I reckon we're gonna see SAS.

AL IN LW 7.5!!!!!

WORLEY IS THE SDK Dodger KING!!!!!!!!

3DBob

cagey5
03-05-2004, 06:44 PM
And just read those workflow enhancements that allow you to have a continually improving animation. Think of the time that's going to save.
Absolutely briliant!!! :D

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:46 PM
He'll take orders on Tuesday - and hes got the feature list up of sorts - 5000 pix renders - no problem - theis progressive renderer gives you an image to save when your happy with the output - amazing.

I've got My car ready!!!!!!

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:50 PM
Progressive rendering refinement of sequences THAT YOU CAN SAVE!!!!!

This really is a revolution and he has changed the face of 3D forever!!!!

OMG OMG

I think I need to go and pleasure myself

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:52 PM
It means that you could set up a room lighting using luminous surfaces and then just walk away - just save the render when you are happy with the quality - GENIUS!!!!!

ddho1981
03-05-2004, 06:53 PM
i am SO FREAKING AMAZED . . . . . i have no other words. I am speechless.

okay, i guess i have a couple that pop into mind here and there.

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:56 PM
I'm speachless - finally someone in the 3D programming world has come up with a plug-in the respects that old mantra "EVERY CYCLE IS SACRED"

Do we get a free idol of worley to worship with every copy of FPrime?

3DBob

ddho1981
03-05-2004, 06:58 PM
i guess i'll hold off on doing this archviz nightshot until next week . . . yay tax return!

3DBob
03-05-2004, 06:58 PM
Every man seeks respect from his contemporaries - to make a difference in the world.

Mr Steve Worley - and all who worked with him on this, I think I am speaking for the whole community here when I say - "You've earned our respect"

3DBob

ddho1981
03-05-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by 3DBob
Every man seeks respect from his contemporaries - to make a difference in the world.

Mr Steve Worley - and all who worked with him on this, I think I am speaking for the whole community here when I say - "You've earned our respect"

3DBob

and our money!

cagey5
03-05-2004, 07:02 PM
He does state that it won't work with Sasquatch.... At least not yet, I reckon once Newtek have cleared the deccks of LW8, they'll get down to opening up the SDK to allow that to happen.

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:04 PM
That goes without saying - The best compliment you can give anyone is to get out your check book for them. I just wanted to say - I think it goes deeper than that.


Oh and BTW - Spinning lights are a goer!!

3DBob

lasvideo
03-05-2004, 07:05 PM
STEVE WORLEY:
That roaring sound you hear is the global collective of Lightwave users giving you an exuberant STANDING OVATION!
We appreciate your skill and showmanship. WELL DONE....(
the crowd roars on for several minutes....)

ddho1981
03-05-2004, 07:05 PM
so what happens if you accidently shift something while its going? does it restart? can you lock it so it doesn't "refresh" i wonder?

hrgiger
03-05-2004, 07:06 PM
Does any other 3D package have a renderer like this? I know Max had some kind of plug-in that did real-time radiosity but I don't know much about it. I just think this makes Lightwave look too good to pass over, epseically for the price of Lightwave and FPrime is still cheaper then the lower Maya package.

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:08 PM
I reckon we'll see FP support SAS in SAS2. He even says he may provide a direct connection between G2 and FP as I predicted earlier.

The point is is that the intention is to get everything working that lightwave can do and a lot more - but it needs mooted collaboration to take off post 8 - but these tools are just tooooooo valuable to wait for anothe L8 UPD8 ;-)

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:14 PM
I dont know of anything else that can do this kind of progressive render refinement. Pause come back - brilliant - JUST Brilliant.

Worley is making LW sail the cutting edge - I implore the aliens at Newtek (who have put some awesome needed features into 8 - TNKXs can't W8) to make worleys - and I think our dreams, come true.

If you need a stick of dynamite to blow LWs SDK open - then FP is officially it!

3DBob

js33
03-05-2004, 07:23 PM
3DBob I take it you are excited. I think you better calm down before you blow a gasket. :D

But I agree.

WORLEY IS A GENIUS

Steve you have made me proud to be a Lightwave user again.

Man is there anything this guy can't do?

I'll be first...uh...second in line behind 3DBob to buy this on Tuesday.

Yaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Happy Lightwave days again.

Also thanks to Newtek and the UVedit plugin and Lightwave 8.

I would also like to thank my manager and my agent...and the Academy........hehehehehe

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:23 PM
I think LW has benefitted from having a closed SDK - I believe it forced Worley to produce a novel workaround - which resulted in a progressive animation renderer! Sometimes Stagnation is the key to a revolution.

Roll on the revolution.

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:29 PM
HAHAAHAH

I sure am JS - got loads of animation/print still work at the moment - And I'd love to just set up a scene/anim - transfer it to a secondary machine - and then just leave it rendering - hell, my server is on 24/7 as is my internet sharing/firwall box - they are now officially redefined and progressive render boxes with secondary tasks.


:D :D :D

3DBob

js33
03-05-2004, 07:30 PM
Well if the SDK wasn't so closed Steve would have been able to include SAS, shaders, volumetrics, glows and lens flares etc...
But I know they will be able to sort this out and get these in future updates.

I'm just still blown away by the progressive animation rendering capablilities. So does this mean you don't even have to render it.
You just load your scene and F Prime just renders all the frames?
Simply amazing! I think Newtek will have to provide free drool buckets to all those unfortunate users of other 3D programs. :D


Cheers,
JS

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:44 PM
It means one amazing thing - No CPU Cycle is wasted.

Imagine you are working on your AMD 2000/P4 2.6/ Dual whatever.

You are modelling for your next job - in the background you have got your last job or another one - just merry improving with every spare CPU cycle.

I can see the dam bust of demand coming from LW users worldwide to get the SDK opened up. People will wan't to just produce animations with the features FP does support - just because it is so goddam effecient - but they'll still miss the rest - and so I see worleys last paragraph today carrying more stress than it allures to - It is now VITALLY important for FP to "access all areas".

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 07:49 PM
Ok biggie for me now - I really want Shaders to work as I want FP to be able to bake calculated radiosity solutions into textures Vmaps.

3DBob

Panikos
03-05-2004, 07:55 PM
So happy :)

However my small worries confirmed.
No Shaders/Volumetrics/LensFlare
No Sasquatch.

Some things can be done by rendering and compose.
Hopefully Newtek will modify SDK, soon.
The sooner the better.

:(

:cool:

TyVole
03-05-2004, 07:58 PM
How would you composite a shader?

3DBob
03-05-2004, 08:01 PM
Hi Panikos,

3 weeks ago I had the patience of a saint, I was prepared to wait for it all - it is one thing that LW & 3D has taught me - FP has made me very very impatient. For what it does - it will change the way we all work. In time - I believe it will work with everything.

I'm happy to see worley get a big fat development check from us right now that lets him and his buddies buy a yacht or whatever they desire - they deserve it! I just hope his life insurance reflects what he is worth to the world of 3D. We need him to take this further.

3DBob

js33
03-05-2004, 08:11 PM
I want Worley to buy a Red Ferrarri (that is assuming he doesn't already have one :D) with the profits from F Prime and send us a picture. :D

But that is so he can get where he's going and get back fast to update F Prime and help Newtek kick open that SDK.

Cheers,
JS

Panikos
03-05-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by TyVole
How would you composite a shader?

I didnt mean shaders.
But you can compose Sasquatch if you render your scene, set everythign unseen by camera.
Also, if you have a scene with volumetric lights, you can duplicate it and set all surfaces to BLACK, and render it. You get only the volumetric Light, and you compose it over FPrime in Screen Mode.
Similarly you can have white Sasquatch and white surfaces to retrieve shadow of Sasquatch.

You can do nothing about HVoxels, due to reflections and refractions (most of them are reflective and transparent)

There are some painful workarounds

:(

3DBob
03-05-2004, 08:28 PM
I'll send him a crow bar if it helps - I think it is the duty of every LW user to send a Feature Request e-mail to NT with "OPEN THE SDK UP" at the top. That's if it is now not blatently obvious to them.

With an open SDK this allready awesome code will blossom and trailblaze the industry - go NT, go Worley!

NT have a trump card in Worley right now and they should capitalise on it.

I can see the NAB demos now - L8 / FP (and whatever VTx we see ;) )

It is a golden year for NT - and I've got shed loads of 3D to do. Yippeeee.

3DBob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 08:33 PM
Yes Panikos - that's what I would do for say my Action man Avatar - In fact I used Texture baker to beke the core textures into the skin colour maps. Problem is though I've used G2 to get the lighting right ( mind you I could now do this wih FP) but I have still use G2 for skin shading - oh well I'll have to work round it by faking the orannayer effect with the use of gradients and vertex maps.

Then I can get down to some serious animating with an awsome preview/render - without hair....

3Dbob

3DBob
03-05-2004, 08:47 PM
Worley has 75% solved ( and in many respects leapfrogged ) one of the industries main complaints with LW - that of slow rendering (noone argues that the output is not good). With the SDK opened there can be little issue with LW for most imagery use ( baring lack of NURBS, subpixel def etc).

Rock on.

anieves
03-05-2004, 08:55 PM
hey 3dbob, did you know that there is an orennayar shader plugin out there? thanks to Antti search over at Flay it should come right up.

Netvudu
03-05-2004, 09:03 PM
uh...


...hah,hah. That is so good it´s ridiculous. I can´t believe what my eyes are watching in those demos. I think it´s pretty obvious that all features apart, FPrime is changing how every LW user will work from now on.

Would like to watch a video that shows how sequences are saved, now that we officially know and have been explained it´s indeed possible.

Worley is going to earn quite some money for this plug, and the best thing is that they deserve every single cent (not implying others don´t deserve it of course).

I just hope this won´t derive in another fever of GI-based renderings with greyish models agaist a plain background. I´m so fed up with that kind of stuff.

As someone said at this very thread, it´s a good time to be a LW user.

Panikos
03-05-2004, 09:13 PM
3DBob, Shaders are great, especially the ones that treat the illumination in an unusual way like Oren-Nayar.

I never use procedural-Shader-plugins, cause with the variety of native procedurals and some tweaking you can get a wide variety of looks. Generally speaking I am happy using tileable imagemaps and some subtle procedurals to mask/break the tiling look.
Imagemaps render faster anyway, but they consume ram.

You can cheat oren-nayat using gradient on incidence angle on diffuse and specular channels.

The shaders I am using often is G2/Sasquatch/HD_Caustics

Too sad cause Environment Plugins cant work with FPrime.
I use Texture World to customize the backdrop as I like.
Maybe ...
Seems that with FPrime the result follows an alternative, yet fast course with some awful limitations.

FPrime has switches for Backdrop/MonteCarlo Radiosity. No interpolations. Caustics seems to be left out for the future

Newtek, please open SDK ASAP. :(

jamesl
03-05-2004, 11:30 PM
Yes... looks fantastic! I only wish it didn't cost so much. Those filthy hobbiests are sure to complain! :D

j

cagey5
03-06-2004, 12:36 AM
No problem James. I'll order mine at the same time as yours. As you are going to buy yours for $500 anyhow It means mine will only cost $58!

All those with too much money should adopt a hobbyist today. ;)


Cagey

jamesl
03-06-2004, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by cagey5
No problem James. I'll order mine at the same time as yours. As you are going to buy yours for $500 anyhow It means mine will only cost $58!

All those with too much money should adopt a hobbyist today. ;)


Cagey

Actually, I was willing to pay $1K, since I work in the industry, so it's a tax write-off anyways. So is every movie I see, every videogame I buy, DVD, CD, satellite TV, DSL, etc... It's GOOD not to be a hobbiest! Don't hate me because I'm beautiful... :eek:

j

jamesl
03-06-2004, 12:58 AM
...of course, you know this is a joke, right? :p

j

cagey5
03-06-2004, 02:28 AM
Yep. btw I like your spelling of hobbyist. It sounds like a superlative as in 'that's the hobbiest hobby I've ever seen' And that probably sums up Lightwave for me. :)

jamesl
03-06-2004, 03:08 AM
"Thievin' Hobbiests... good Smeagol."

j

jamesl
03-06-2004, 03:08 AM
"Thievin' Hobbiests... good Smeagol."

j

Dodgy
03-06-2004, 03:27 AM
THAT IS AMAZING

Right at the bottom he says 'there is no feature difference between 8 and fprime' what does that mean?

cagey5
03-06-2004, 03:35 AM
He says there is no feature difference between LW 7 and LW8 in other owrds the 8 version will not unlock any new features. That's not to say it won't happen in 8.5 or 9 though!.

CB_3D
03-06-2004, 04:00 AM
Worley is the best. I have a huge project that i have to render this week (deadline, arrrgh). I think Mr worley just saved my butt.

:D :D :D

smh
03-06-2004, 04:07 AM
This is amazing, no less than a revolution in the world of 3D. After years of F9 hard labour, it feels like you've been given your youth...heck even your childhood back! Now you can play with GI like your favorite kid's toy, and bounce it around as often as you please. :p I think the community should certainly vote Worley, man of the year and it goes without saying, that Worley Labs is the company of the year.

Now let's hope the fine people at Newtek make this "The Year Of Lightwave" and deliver a solid LW8 release. Don't worry about FPrime's relationship with Sas and G2, Worley will probably be able to fix that before the LW SDK revision. But I hope NT can roll out a LW8b as fast as LW7b was released, and have those issues addressed. I'm confident they can pull it off in reasonable time. And remember that Worley will be working with them on this one.

CB_3D
03-06-2004, 04:08 AM
Now i only wonder if it also works with a renderfarm. That would give me the renderpower of 200 computers at my fingertips, LMAO

-EsHrA-
03-06-2004, 04:28 AM
im officialy excited too...

here ya go ;)


mlon

mcewan7
03-06-2004, 04:42 AM
In April's issue of 3D World magazine (just received 20 mins ago) there is a news snippet about FPrime. I won't reproduce it all here incase I get in trouble, but it basicaly says:

Does - Full res renders for texture, bump traced shadows, area lights, dof, gradients.

Doesn't - GI, volumetrics, plugin shaders. However changes to lightwave 8 mean the next version of FPrime should be able to.

Full review next issue.

Um, I just about reproduced the whole thing anyway oops. ;)

js33
03-06-2004, 04:59 AM
Well that article is wrong as the first version of F Prime WILL do GI.

Go Worley.

Cheers,
JS

3DBob
03-06-2004, 05:01 AM
I vote worley gets man of the year - his company 3D inventors of the year - not just for the LW community - but for the whole of 3D!

If NT & Worley can crack the SDK nut for 8.5 and Siggraph - the combination will be completely showstopping me thinks.

It would look especially absurd on a 4-Way AMD64 Opteron with 64bit OS/LW/FP! - But the beauty of FP it doesn't need all that to shine.

3DBob

js33
03-06-2004, 05:22 AM
The futures so bright I have to wear :cool: :D

Come on Tuesday. OK no pushing or cutting in line. We are professionals here. OK some are still hobbyists but will be professionals in no time now with F Prime.

It's F Prime Time. :D

Cheers,
JS