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View Full Version : Sympathy, anyone? Or at least, advice?



Fardak
02-25-2004, 09:35 AM
BH

How you all doing?
I just got royally messed over by a reseller (?) here in Germany. It's actually pretty funny. I mad myself crazy getting the money together, I called the guy to confirm that everything was OK, I harassed the guy to make sure he received the money etc etc. After waiting a week and a half I call the guy to find out why the DVDs haven't arrived yet. He's like "Oh, I'm sorry, see, we went bankrupt...." Bottom line is - no 8, no DVDs and very likely no money. 646.70! Euro! (He was gonna hook me up with the Character Animation DVDs instead of FX whatever.) BLAAAAA!
Advice, anyone?
From the Brink of Insanity,
Fardak

ingo
02-25-2004, 10:01 AM
Sorry no advice, but you have my sympathy. A good dealer in Germany is www.innotech-soft.de , they are anywhere in south germany, just in case youre interested in a new attempt.

Lightwolf
02-25-2004, 10:10 AM
My sympathy you have...

dcp, right? Damn, I bought my very first LW licence for them and they were my favourite dealer for the past 12 years...
You should try to contact NT Europe, they might be able to help you. I don't know the current state of affairs between the dealer and NT Europe, as in who owns whom what, but they might be able to help you...

BTW, I just checked their homepage. I'm not quite sure what the state is if they don't announce it properly. Do you know a lawyer who might be able to help you?

Cheers,
Mike

3DEagle
02-25-2004, 11:09 AM
Hi,

Talk to the lawyer who will handle the company after the bankruptcy...there is a chance that you can get your money back if the owner knew about the situation when you paid your order...then it is fraud!

The dates when different things happened are very important (like what date they recieved the money on their bank account, what date they filed for bankrupcy etc)...check carefully.

What an a$$hole!

Ole

Wade
02-25-2004, 11:33 AM
Sounds like fraud if you sent teh money in and a week or two later they are saying they are out of busnisness.

Pay by Credit Card in the future as you can dispute the charges with you Credit Card company. Your card company has a lot more weight to throw around than you.

Hope things work out for you sympathy you have.

Fardak
02-25-2004, 03:47 PM
Thanx for the advice and the sympathy, folks. I just hope I can get the money back. It's gonna be tough justifying shelling out another 650 euros, never mind scraping it together. I do know a few lawyers - I'll keep you guys updated.
Thanx,
Fardak

Fardak
02-25-2004, 03:50 PM
Assumiong this all works out... I wonder if I can convince Newtek to let me in on this present seeing as I've already shelled out the money.... hmmm :rolleyes:

sire
02-25-2004, 05:53 PM
Wait a minute - DCP is dead? Heck, I bought my LW license from them as well! What does this mean for my prepaid LW8 upgrade?

Wouldn't NT Europe be informed about me already having paid? There must be some sort of proof for this, maybe through my bonus DFX+ license?

sire
02-25-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by sire
Wouldn't NT Europe be informed about me already having paid? There must be some sort of proof for this, maybe through my bonus DFX+ license?
After I just registered the upgrade at NT Europe by the s/n of the LW7.5 CDs which came with DFX+, I seriously calmed down... :)

etyrihje
02-27-2004, 12:42 PM
Did you pay using a credit card?
I beleive that VISA (and perhaps the other credit card companies as well) offers a built-in insurance against losses like the one you explain.

Five years ago I lost a few hundred pounds when a British Mac reseller went bancrupt, sadly I found out about it too late and only recovered the second half I had payed.(there is a time limit of 90 or 180 days from date of transaction), but VISA (At least here in Norway) will refund your money, due to this built-in insurance.

Best luck, and my sympathy!

ingo
02-27-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by sire
Wait a minute - DCP is dead? Heck, I bought my LW license from them as well! ....

dcp in Hamburg just gave me a crappy presentation for Lightwave years ago, despite that i bought it later. I guess they were not interested in selling a single license only.

Original1
02-27-2004, 03:11 PM
ALWAYS pay by credit card, in some countries it is not even down to insurance. The position is often if you pay by credit card and the firm goes bust, the amount is credited back to your account since you have not recieved the doors. In some cases this is a legal requirement.

What is german consumer law like?

As for the upgrades you have already paid for, if it was the upgrade special and you already received it, then surely Newtek Europe will have a record of it. In which case I guess they will be able to honor the upgrade to LW8. Do you have reciepts and proof of purchase?

sire
02-28-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by ingo
dcp in Hamburg just gave me a crappy presentation for Lightwave years ago, despite that i bought it later. I guess they were not interested in selling a single license only.

...but many? ;)

But seriously, the normal way they present(ed) LW may not be the most shining, but on the other hand some time ago on their little exhibition which took place in one of the Studio Hamburg halls, there was a booth with LW and the Toaster which were presented quite eagerly by an enthusiastic guy: Andrew Bishop from Darkside Animations. He was great! :)

Fardak
02-28-2004, 05:30 PM
BH

The weird thing was that he told me I couldn't pay with credit card and I should transfer the money. At the time I thought that was standard procedure in Europe....

xtrm3d
02-29-2004, 02:36 AM
hi fardak ,
i feel really sorry for you ..
i hope you would post this thread too at the german newtek forum : www.rendering.de
that would be time for the people over there to open theyr eyes about some of these f*** as**** vendor


tut mir echt leid... :
arbeitet nicht da ein gewissen christian H. ??
gruss aus berlin
:(

jevinstudios
02-29-2004, 08:46 AM
The weird thing was that he told me I couldn't pay with credit card and I should transfer the money. At the time I thought that was standard procedure in Europe....

Never, never, NEVER follow this type of instruction from a company supposedly selling legit products -- this is a red flag that there is something shady afoot (as you have personally discovered). The other recommendations of always using credit cards applies -- I only use credit cards or debit cards for my software, hardware or misc business purchases -- you have full protection this way. In the case of this type of scam -- or a product that is shipped deffective or never received -- the card company will open up a dispute, and will continue until you get a refund.

To be honest, I usually always purchase software directly from the manufacturer, like NewTek, unless it's from a re-seller I know and trust. Also, make sure the re-seller is recommended by NewTek prior to purchase -- if they're not on their list, then don't trust them. If this business WAS recommended by NewTek, or listed as an authorized re-seller on their site, report them to NewTek (in Europe as well as in the U.S.), and talk to them directly about this problem and the scam you encountered. Who knows, maybe they might replace your lost upgrade at no additional charge, since they, after all, guided you to them via their re-sellers list?

Good luck, and hope all works out for you....

Kevin Soderlund
Jevin Studios

MrWyatt
03-01-2004, 01:51 AM
well itīs not so easy to purchase software directly from the manufacturer if the manuffacturer is not in the same country and sells his product international throu resellers. i bet a lot of people would love to purchase directly from newtek as this would even save some of us a few hundered bucks regarding the $ to Euro currency level right now. i also payed 560 Euros for my upgrade at Basis1 here in Germany, thatīs 700 US$ at the moment. boy i would love to buy directly from Newtek .

Lightwolf
03-01-2004, 03:08 AM
Jevin:
Payment by credit card is not a very common thing over here in Germany. We do have bank money transfers that work extremely well and fast. Only a minority of people I know even have a credit card (Heck, I don't). So you can't really compare it to the U.S. we're you don't exist as a person without a credit card ;)
As for a trusting re-seller: I've made good business with these guys in the past 12 years, and they were the most pleasant re-sellers I ever had the luck to deal with.

Original1:
Consumer law is quite good over here. I'm not sure of how it applies in the case of bancruptcy over here (you can compare the situation to a chapter 11). Depending on the assets in the company, it might even continue to be run by an interim manager to handle the liabilities during the bancruptcy.
Luckily Fardak seems to be a private person, so he has stronbger rights in this case, I'm no laywer though, and german law can get quite complicated...

riki
03-01-2004, 03:25 AM
Some sort of response from Newtek might be nice.

jamesl
03-01-2004, 03:37 AM
MrWyatt: The dollar to Euro exchange rate right now favors you. Until next month when we bust Osama, and the world (plus Tim Robbins) begins to understand that Bush will hold the White House another 4 years.

Lightwolf: Americans use credit because it allows them to purchase property, something that the bulk of Europeans in my demographic couldn't even imagine doing because anyone who owns property has recieved it from a family deed that has been in the family for 450 years. So, either you're a duke or you're renting, right?

Party on!

j

Lightwolf
03-01-2004, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
Lightwolf: Americans use credit because it allows them to purchase property, something that the bulk of Europeans in my demographic couldn't even imagine doing because anyone who owns property has recieved it from a family deed that has been in the family for 450 years. So, either you're a duke or you're renting, right?

Party on!

??? Actually, we just don't need them half as much because we tend to do our money transactions on-line with direct access to our accounts. Money transfers are _the_ most common way over here to shuffle money around, not checks, few credit cards.
As to the rest of your comment, under which rock have you been hiding for the past 450 years? :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Mike

MrWyatt
03-01-2004, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by jamesl
MrWyatt: The dollar to Euro exchange rate right now favors you. Until next month when we bust Osama, and the world (plus Tim Robbins) begins to understand that Bush will hold the White House another 4 years.

Lightwolf: Americans use credit because it allows them to purchase property, something that the bulk of Europeans in my demographic couldn't even imagine doing because anyone who owns property has recieved it from a family deed that has been in the family for 450 years. So, either you're a duke or you're renting, right?

Party on!

j

I donīt see the need to turn this into some sort of politic USA against Europe debate. every one is free to think what he or she wants about the leaders of other countryīs, but that is not the appropriate place to do so as the internet tends to turn some people into loud, offending and discriminating jerks pretty fast, saying things they wouldnīt dare speaking out loud at a round table because of the fear they couldnīt make it out of the room in one piece. i got involved a few times in that kind of flaming wars and do not tend to do it again.

Bwt i do have a credit card and use it happily where i can, but i also use money transfers a lot here as itīs a brise and in most cases doesnīt cost anything. i also donīt see the need in making Germans or Europeans in general look like retarded idiots only because a lot of folks here donīt have a credit card. most of the people here donīt need any, thatīs all. and the image you have about Europeans and property only proves that you really know nothing about Europeans at all.

peace.

riki
03-01-2004, 05:09 AM
You can buy houses in Australia cheep. If you don't mind living in the middle of nowhere. I've heard of artists buy homes in places like Broken Hill for $7000 and qualifying for the Governments 'First Home Buyer Grant' (which is also $7000 grand). So effectively you can get a house for free.

Fardak
03-02-2004, 09:28 AM
BH

HAPPY DAYS!! After contacting Newtek I just got a E-mail that everything is worked out and I should be receiving the DVDs this week!!:D

It's sorta bittersweet 'cuz I hadn't realized the extent of the beating I was taking on the exchange rate and I was thinking that maybe I should just take my money and order from the US. I am anyway in and out very often. On the other hand, I would have to start calling the reseller in the US etc etc. Besides, then I wouldn't be eligible for the Newtek T-hirt or whatever it is they're giving the preorderers :D. What the heck!!
YEEEEEHAW!

Fardak

Lightwolf
03-02-2004, 10:01 AM
Fardak:
I'm glad it wokred out for you !


As a quick notice:
I just got an official letter from dcp, and they declared bancruptcy on February 12th.
This is extremely sad, not only where they (imho) very competent, but they also had exactly the products in store that I enjoy working with:

Lightwave, DPS boards, VT[3], DF.

Cheers,
Mike - *sniff*

jevinstudios
03-02-2004, 10:16 AM
Did not want to come off as a Euro-basher by any means -- I did not know that credit cards were not common in Europe, and that money transfers were a way of life. I guess being an American, I use my American Express everywhere I go, and it seemed that it was accepted universally -- never thought that credit cards were pretty much a North American thing. Shows my ignorance in financial world arffairs, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, tho, a money-transfer system opens people up to being victimized on a much larger scale with no protection, unless banks are willing to fight to protect the European consumer by insuring their $$ transfers to protect people from scams and financial predators. Learn something new every day!

Fardak -- glad you got relief. Very happy for you!

K

Lightwolf
03-02-2004, 10:33 AM
Hi Kevin,

Originally posted by jevinstudios
Did not want to come off as a Euro-basher by any means -- I did not know that credit cards were not common in Europe, and that money transfers were a way of life.
No problem here. That's exactly why I posted my remarks, because I (correctly) assumed that many people think that credit cards are the only way to go. It was intended as an eye opener, and to make Fardak look a bit less stupid as well I guess ;)
You can cancel a money transfer btw, it even gets deducted back from the other parties bank account. One advantage (customer protection wise) is that you know exactly to which bank account you're paying, since it's your responsibility. Unlike credit cards, your not giving away access to your account (which seems to make credit card scam so much easier).
They do get accepted universally, they're just not used to the same extent universally. As a side note, I was extremely suprised when I found out who much is beeing payed in the U.S. using good old fashioned paper cheques. I think I've used one or two in my whole life :)

Cheers,
Mike - who tries to build bridges every now and then...

Original1
03-02-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Fardak
BH

The weird thing was that he told me I couldn't pay with credit card and I should transfer the money. At the time I thought that was standard procedure in Europe....

That is fraudulant trading, and could result in the Directors being in court, and barred from trading.

In the UK we have local goverment depts called trading standards who give advice in these matters, there must be a german equivalant (Or Citizens advice)

jevinstudios
03-02-2004, 11:31 AM
Really appreciate the global education session, LightWolf!! Ya know, maybe you guyz in Europe have the right idea after all -- if more people in the U.S. would just pay with cash, maybe our country wouldn't have the highest personal debt level per capita than any other country in the world!!

I've been using debit cards more than credit cards lately, 'cause it comez right outta my account, and doesn't increase my personal debt. This also has the same protection as credit cards, so I'm safe. Never use paper checks, tho, except for paying taxes and monthly utility bills....

Anyway, Fardak is not stupid by any means, instead, quite the opposite -- I think you're brilliant ;) !!

I eat my words from my first post, however, as I've become a more educated individual in the last hour.....

Lightwolf
03-03-2004, 03:35 AM
Hi Kevin,

Originally posted by jevinstudios
Really appreciate the global education session, LightWolf!!
Well, as long as you don't think I sound too much like a smart a**, you're welcome ;)

Ya know, maybe you guyz in Europe have the right idea after all -- if more people in the U.S. would just pay with cash, maybe our country wouldn't have the highest personal debt level per capita than any other country in the world!!
Good point there, but no worries, we're catching up...
As for the right idea, well, sometimes we have them, sometimes we don't, but I guess that's a pretty universal principle ;)


I eat my words from my first post, however, as I've become a more educated individual in the last hour.....
Be sure to return that favour any time you see fit!

Cheers,
Mike